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Shamima Begum cannot return to UK, Supreme Court rules

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Post by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:11 pm





Shamima Begum, who left the UK for Syria to join the Islamic State group as a teenager, will not be allowed to return and fight her citizenship case, the Supreme Court has ruled.

The court said in a unanimous ruling that her rights were not breached when she was refused permission to return.

Ms Begum, 21, wants to come back to challenge the home secretary's decision to remove her British nationality.

She is currently in a camp controlled by armed guards in northern Syria.

Ms Begum was 15 when she and two other east London schoolgirls left the UK in February 2015 and travelled to Syria to join the Islamic State group.

In 2019, the then-Home Secretary Sajid Javid stripped Ms Begum of her citizenship on national security grounds.

Last July, the Court of Appeal ruled that the only fair way forward was to allow her into the UK because she could not effectively appeal against the decision from the camp in northern Syria.

The Home Office subsequently appealed to the Supreme Court to reconsider the Court of Appeal's judgement, arguing that allowing her to return to the UK "would create significant national security risks".

On Friday, Lord Reed, president of the Supreme Court, said the government had been entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56209007



GOOD!!!



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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:26 pm

Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.

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Post by Maddog Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.

You could, if they left the country, counselor.


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Post by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:50 pm



She exiled herself...


And now her Islamic paradise of jihadi barbarism murder and torture has been thwarted, she is trying to bullshit her way back in... But we are not having it!!!


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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.

You could, if they left the country, counselor.


No...you could kick them out. Greeks used to employ exile as a form of punishment. Thucydides, I think, was once exiled from Athens.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You could, if they left the country, counselor.


No...you could kick them out.  Greeks used to employ exile as a form of punishment.  Thucydides, I think, was once exiled from Athens.

Greeks used to do a lot of things.

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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

No...you could kick them out.  Greeks used to employ exile as a form of punishment.  Thucydides, I think, was once exiled from Athens.

Greeks used to do a lot of things.  

Among them, democracy. Maybe the participation in self-rule is why exile was so profound. They say that exile was feared even over death in Athens.

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Post by Guest Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who where where adults or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:36 pm

Korben wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

I'm more concerned about the equity question.  We make more about the 'foreign' impact of an ISIS, than we do about those internally who are destroying from the inside out.  Perhaps this is because of our racial xenophobia, but I think it is because we see foreign disruption more as war, and domestic disruption as politics.  In fact, they are both the same thing.  Either we amend our racial xenophobia, or we amend our definition of politics to exclude those who are terrorists.  After all, we have another category...criminals.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Guest Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:04 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Korben wrote:
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

I'm more concerned about the equity question.  We make more about the 'foreign' impact of an ISIS, than we do about those internally who are destroying from the inside out.  Perhaps this is because of our racial xenophobia, but I think it is because we see foreign disruption more as war, and domestic disruption as politics.  In fact, they are both the same thing.  Either we amend our racial xenophobia, or we amend our definition of politics to exclude those who are terrorists.  After all, we have another category...criminals.
I understand your point ,(i think) they has been some comment that if this girl had been white then they would have been a different outcome .is that what you are alluding too ? because i personally think its a legitimate point

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Post by Maddog Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:39 pm

Korben wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

Myself. The way we handle "kids " is crazy. One minute they are considered functioning adults at 15, the next they are considered children.

I'm fine with 18 year olds losing citizenship if they leave the country and fight with terrorists. 15 year olds haven't developed enough to hold them responsible.

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Post by Guest Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:47 pm

Maddog wrote:
Korben wrote:
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

Myself. The way we handle "kids " is crazy. One minute they are considered functioning adults at 15, the next they are considered children.  

I'm fine with 18 year olds losing citizenship if they leave the country and fight with terrorists.  15 year olds haven't developed enough to hold them responsible.  
I tend to agree with you MD

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Post by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:57 pm

Korben wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Now, if we can only exile domestic terrorists, like white supremacists, in the same way.
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

Groomed on line, my arse.   She and her daft mates craved a bit of excitement; as do most teenagers.  Being muslim they didn't have the freedom most girls of that age do, so they figured they'd run away to join the ISIS circus.   You too can marry a jihadi fighter.   Steal your parents jewellery to fund the trip of a lifetime!  Do it while you're young, because in ten years' time you'll be married to your cousin anyway and  chained to the kitchen sink.     And they thought...that'll do for me.  Being a Jihadi fighter's wife sounds super romantic...we might even get to be famous.   They got that alright.  Well, two got blown up for their troubles and this one thinks supporting a regime that burns people alive in cages and beheads kids is kinda edgy.  She was 'OK' with it.   Now, she's prancing around in clothes that are haram and might have seen her own head rolling in the dust,  and thinks the UK should take her back.   I hope they never let her back in.  It will send out the right message to these terrorist supporting idiots.  

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Post by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:00 pm

Maddog wrote:
Korben wrote:
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

Myself. The way we handle "kids " is crazy. One minute they are considered functioning adults at 15, the next they are considered children.  

I'm fine with 18 year olds losing citizenship if they leave the country and fight with terrorists.  15 year olds haven't developed enough to hold them responsible.  

At 15 you know that torture and cruelty is wrong.
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Post by Guest Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:18 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Korben wrote:
I am on the fence about this decision.
She was a child when she we effectively groomed on line to do this and other people (400 as far as a quick search)who  where where adults  or " foreign fighters" have returned to the uk after supporting ISIS

Groomed on line, my arse.   She and her daft mates craved a bit of excitement; as do most teenagers.  Being muslim they didn't have the freedom most girls of that age do, so they figured they'd run away to join the ISIS circus.   You too can marry a jihadi fighter.   Steal your parents jewellery to fund the trip of a lifetime!  Do it while you're young, because in ten years' time you'll be married to your cousin anyway and  chained to the kitchen sink.     And they thought...that'll do for me.  Being a Jihadi fighter's wife sounds super romantic...we might even get to be famous.   They got that alright.  Well, two got blown up for their troubles and this one thinks supporting a regime that burns people alive in cages and beheads kids is kinda edgy.  She was 'OK' with it.   Now, she's prancing around in clothes that are haram and might have seen her own head rolling in the dust,  and thinks the UK should take her back.   I hope they never let her back in.  It will send out the right message to these terrorist supporting idiots.  

Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked. Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race.

And you don't know if she "was alright with it" That is something you can not know, you do not know what was in her mind ,and i very much doubt that that was a topic that was even mentioned when she was in contact with these animals ,groomers in the sex trade , tend not to tell there victims that they will be sold in to sex work,abused and treated like crap ,the focus on the alleged benefits to trap there victims

And she is dressed like that because she has to, not necessarily through choice

As i said i am on the fence i can understand both sides 1. the fact she was a child and was likely "groomed"
2 the desire to protect the people in this country .
but dont think i am Qualified to make a decision ether way

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Post by Vintage Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:31 pm

Not sure if I've heard all her interviews but she doesn't show much remorse in anything I've seen and she hasn't complained about being groomed now that she's had time to think - has she?

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Post by Maddog Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:02 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Myself. The way we handle "kids " is crazy. One minute they are considered functioning adults at 15, the next they are considered children.  

I'm fine with 18 year olds losing citizenship if they leave the country and fight with terrorists.  15 year olds haven't developed enough to hold them responsible.  

At 15 you know that torture and cruelty is wrong.    

Yeah, but you don't understand the ramifications of it like an adult. That's why they don't drive cars, buy guns, drink alcohol or get to work as a stripper.

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Post by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:21 pm




She was only a couple of weeks short of being 16... And she went out there to join terrorists by her own choice, knowing full well what she was doing, and willingly stayed there as an active participant in the terrorist organisation... Plus, if Isis hadn't been thwarted there, she would still be a willing and active participant in it all...


She has citizenship of another country.


We don't want her here.


She is no longer a British citizen.


Good riddance!!!



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Post by gelico Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:16 am

Tommy Monk wrote:



Shamima Begum, who left the UK for Syria to join the Islamic State group as a teenager, will not be allowed to return and fight her citizenship case, the Supreme Court has ruled.

The court said in a unanimous ruling that her rights were not breached when she was refused permission to return.

Ms Begum, 21, wants to come back to challenge the home secretary's decision to remove her British nationality.

She is currently in a camp controlled by armed guards in northern Syria.

Ms Begum was 15 when she and two other east London schoolgirls left the UK in February 2015 and travelled to Syria to join the Islamic State group.

In 2019, the then-Home Secretary Sajid Javid stripped Ms Begum of her citizenship on national security grounds.

Last July, the Court of Appeal ruled that the only fair way forward was to allow her into the UK because she could not effectively appeal against the decision from the camp in northern Syria.

The Home Office subsequently appealed to the Supreme Court to reconsider the Court of Appeal's judgement, arguing that allowing her to return to the UK "would create significant national security risks".

On Friday, Lord Reed, president of the Supreme Court, said the government had been entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56209007



GOOD!!!





sorry Tommy, please excuse me for being such a cynic but considering the government is letting boat load after boat load of illegals just arrive in at kent and have been all through lockdown, I see this as nothing more than a distraction to make it look like the government is actually doing something fucking useful

it's a pile of shite

what's the point in keeping ONE out and potentially letting in loads more every single day? especially when those here legally have been scared to go for a sodding walk, or meet up with anyone, just in case they get fined.

you say GOOD!

I say GARBAGE!

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:01 am




All the illegal immigrants you mention should be immediately shipped off back to where they came from, or to their regional governing groups, ie to the African Union or Arab League etc... Or just back to where they were last before arriving here, EU/France etc...


And yes, she is just but one person... But there are hundreds more who have been stripped of UK citizenship and who will also want to "come back into the UK just to appeal" and once they get into the country, regardless of losing said 'appeal', will still just stay here in UK anyway, never being removed in the future... And not only costing taxpayers huge amounts in paying for their upkeep and their legal fees, there will be continued cost in authorities having to monitor them 24/7, plus the ongoing threat they pose to the rest of us all, and the dangerous influence they will have on countless others...



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Post by Syl Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:18 pm

I doubt any of us know what she is like now, but presumably the people who have made the decision not to allow her back into the UK do.
She will have been interviewed and assessed, and the decision has been made that she is no longer a British citizen and she is not welcome here.

She may have been a gullible child looking for adventure when she left, but she isn't now, so she must be judged on  what level of threat she might hold for UK citizens now.

So t's been decided the safety of the citizens here is more important than her right to return.

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Post by Original Quill Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:43 pm

Syl wrote:I doubt any of us know what she is like now, but presumably the people who have made the decision not to allow her back into the UK do.
She will have been interviewed and assessed, and the decision has been made that she is no longer a British citizen and she is not welcome here.

She may have been a gullible child looking for adventure when she left, but she isn't now, so she must be judged on  what level of threat she might hold for UK citizens now.

So t's been decided the safety of the citizens here is more important than her right to return.

That's fantasy, Syl. She's been exiled for what she did when she was 15-years old, and because anti-Muslim sentiment is still alive and kicking in Britain.

Still, I think exile could be a handy punishment for political crimes. When the public mood relaxes, they will let them back in. Over here we have Guantanamo...we could put that to good use. Wink

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:04 pm




She was an active participant in Islamist terrorism while in Syria... She strapped bombs to people... And if her Islamist jihadist paradise had still been carrying on, she would still be happy to be involved in it.


She is no longer a British citizen.



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Post by Maddog Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:08 pm

Syl wrote:I doubt any of us know what she is like now, but presumably the people who have made the decision not to allow her back into the UK do.
She will have been interviewed and assessed, and the decision has been made that she is no longer a British citizen and she is not welcome here.

She may have been a gullible child looking for adventure when she left, but she isn't now, so she must be judged on  what level of threat she might hold for UK citizens now.

So t's been decided the safety of the citizens here is more important than her right to return.

True. While she may have been a dumb kid when she set off on this ill advised adventure, there are people that have spoken to the adult her and drawn some conclusions that suggest she's learned nothing.

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Post by Original Quill Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:She was an active participant in Islamist terrorism while in Syria... She strapped bombs to people... And if her Islamist jihadist paradise had still been carrying on, she would still be happy to be involved in it.

She is no longer a British citizen.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, tommy. Over here we have terrorists on both sides: white supremacy terrorists, like the KKK, Aryan Nations, Proud Boys, Bogaloo, and MAGA, etc., and they pose an equal threat. As the FBI has said:

FBI Report Threats wrote:Threats emanating from domestic and international terrorists will continue to represent a significant challenge to the United States for the foreseeable future. Further, as terrorists continue to refine and expand their methodologies, the threats they pose will become even greater.
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/the-terrorist-threat-confronting-the-united-states

In the instant case, you have a young girl, who joined with ISIS, whose punishment has been de-citizenship and exile. I think it's an appropriate punishment for all kinds of terrorism...if they don't approve of our ideals, show them the door and remind them not to let it hit their ass on their way out.

In the US, the more severe threat comes from the RW groups. Exile is appropriate for them, as well. They should be exiled to Brazil, or Asia, or wherever authorities think is opportune. If they don’t believe in equality and American justice, good riddance.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:57 pm

Korben wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Groomed on line, my arse.   She and her daft mates craved a bit of excitement; as do most teenagers.  Being muslim they didn't have the freedom most girls of that age do, so they figured they'd run away to join the ISIS circus.   You too can marry a jihadi fighter.   Steal your parents jewellery to fund the trip of a lifetime!  Do it while you're young, because in ten years' time you'll be married to your cousin anyway and  chained to the kitchen sink.     And they thought...that'll do for me.  Being a Jihadi fighter's wife sounds super romantic...we might even get to be famous.   They got that alright.  Well, two got blown up for their troubles and this one thinks supporting a regime that burns people alive in cages and beheads kids is kinda edgy.  She was 'OK' with it.   Now, she's prancing around in clothes that are haram and might have seen her own head rolling in the dust,  and thinks the UK should take her back.   I hope they never let her back in.  It will send out the right message to these terrorist supporting idiots.  

Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked. Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race.

And you don't know if she "was alright with it" That is something you can not know, you do not know what was in her mind ,and i very much doubt that that was a topic that was even mentioned when she was in contact with these animals ,groomers in the sex trade , tend not to tell there victims that they will be sold in to sex work,abused and treated like crap ,the focus on the alleged benefits to trap there victims

And she is dressed like that because she has to, not necessarily through choice

As i said i am on the fence i can understand both sides 1. the fact she was a child and was likely  "groomed"
2 the desire to protect the people in this country .
but dont think i am Qualified to make a decision ether way  

I know what grooming means. And many muslim women will tell you that wearing the veil is entirely their choice, and will vehemently defend their right to do so.

She went out there for the shits and giggles.
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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:59 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

At 15 you know that torture and cruelty is wrong.    

Yeah, but you don't understand the ramifications of it like an adult. That's why they don't drive cars, buy guns, drink alcohol or get to work as a stripper.  

That's true. And it's how we learn. From our mistakes. I get that. We've all done daft things as teenagers. But we don't all flit off to be part of something as heinous as ISIS. Like we don't all go around in gangs and stab our peers. And if we do. We face the consequences. Like she's now doing.
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Post by Maddog Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:05 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Yeah, but you don't understand the ramifications of it like an adult. That's why they don't drive cars, buy guns, drink alcohol or get to work as a stripper.  

That's true.  And it's how we learn.  From our mistakes.   I get that.  We've all done daft things as teenagers.  But we don't all flit off to be part of something as heinous as ISIS.  Like we don't all go around in gangs and stab our peers.   And if we do.  We face the consequences.  Like she's now doing.

Especially if we don't prove that we learned something.  

My general feeling about this is she probably could have come back to the UK if she admitted to being a stark raving lunatic and has learned her lesson.  

It's hard to give people a second chance if they refuse to demonstrate why they deserve one.

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:10 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

That's true.  And it's how we learn.  From our mistakes.   I get that.  We've all done daft things as teenagers.  But we don't all flit off to be part of something as heinous as ISIS.  Like we don't all go around in gangs and stab our peers.   And if we do.  We face the consequences.  Like she's now doing.

Especially if we don't prove that we learned something.  

My general feeling about this is she probably could have come back to the UK if she admitted to being a stark raving lunatic and has learned her lesson.  

It's hard to give people a second chance if they refuse to demonstrate why they deserve one.

I don't think she's sorry. I don't think she cares about anyone but herself. If I were her I would be hanging my head in abject shame for being so stupid, and if I were her parents, I would be apologising to the British public and all the victims slaughtered by that regime that my daughter was a part of.
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Post by Maddog Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:16 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Especially if we don't prove that we learned something.  

My general feeling about this is she probably could have come back to the UK if she admitted to being a stark raving lunatic and has learned her lesson.  

It's hard to give people a second chance if they refuse to demonstrate why they deserve one.

I don't think she's sorry.  I don't think she cares about anyone but herself.  If I were her I would be hanging my head in abject shame for being so stupid, and if I were her parents, I would be apologising to the British public and all the victims slaughtered by that regime that my daughter was a part of.

That's sorta my impression too.  I can forgive a lot of youthful stupidity because I was such a damn fool.  

But if there is no growth, you get no forgiveness from me.  

I think that's what is happening here.


Last edited by Maddog on Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:20 pm

Of course, all this is also instigated by the blood sucking lawyers who stand to make a fortune fighting her case.
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Post by Original Quill Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:15 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:Of course, all this is also instigated by the blood sucking lawyers who stand to make a fortune fighting her case.

cheers All we can do is make money. Pity. Twisted Evil

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:31 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Especially if we don't prove that we learned something.  

My general feeling about this is she probably could have come back to the UK if she admitted to being a stark raving lunatic and has learned her lesson.  

It's hard to give people a second chance if they refuse to demonstrate why they deserve one.

I don't think she's sorry.  I don't think she cares about anyone but herself.  If I were her I would be hanging my head in abject shame for being so stupid, and if I were her parents, I would be apologising to the British public and all the victims slaughtered by that regime that my daughter was a part of.
Ah if we could only know whats in some ones mind, the world would perhaps be a simpler and safer place But alas we cant

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