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Republicans tried to reject votes for Joe Biden in Michigan

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:47 am

Classic transference. Huffington Post reports:

The two Republicans on Michigan’s Wayne County Board of Canvassers initially refused on Tuesday to certify the county’s election results, which show former Vice President Joe Biden defeating President Donald Trump.

But they suddenly reversed their decision after hours of phone calls from the public lambasting them for trying to exclude predominantly Black Detroit from the certification.

The board first deadlocked at 2-2 with the Republicans voting against certifying the results and Democrats voting to certify. It would have been an unprecedented move by a local board to refuse to certify an election result as part of a scheme to overturn the outcome.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:55 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Classic transference. Huffington Post reports:

The two Republicans on Michigan’s Wayne County Board of Canvassers initially refused on Tuesday to certify the county’s election results, which show former Vice President Joe Biden defeating President Donald Trump.

But they suddenly reversed their decision after hours of phone calls from the public lambasting them for trying to exclude predominantly Black Detroit from the certification.

The board first deadlocked at 2-2 with the Republicans voting against certifying the results and Democrats voting to certify. It would have been an unprecedented move by a local board to refuse to certify an election result as part of a scheme to overturn the outcome.

Did they give a reason why they wouldn't certify the vote to begin with?

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:04 pm

I found this tid bit in the Detroit Free Press.

The board's votes came after absentee ballot poll books at 70% of Detroit's 134 absentee counting boards were found to be out of balance without explanation. The mismatches varied anywhere from one to more than four votes.

It appears there was a compromise after the brouhaha. The vote will be certified and audits will be done later to try to find and explain any irregularities.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:05 pm

Just like in Texas, it's always about the absentee ballots.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:19 pm

To go from slight irregularities in voting, to saying that the City of Detroit did not vote whatsoever, is a bit extreme...not to mention comical.  The remedy is to fix the irregularity, where it is found, and otherwise count all votes.  Couldn't be simpler.

We all know what this is about.  The City of Detroit is in Wayne County, Michigan.  The Detroit Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area (PMSA)3 accounts for 72 percent of the state's metropolitan black population, and, within the Detroit PMSA, Wayne County holds 85 percent of the PMSA total, with a black population of 864,627, representing 42 percent of its total population.

This is just another ruse to suppress the vote of a racial minority.  It is a typical use of Jim Crow logic: white County Board imposes arbitrary authority to eliminate democracy in black areas.  This tactic has been used in the State of Mississippi (which has majority black population) since the Civil War. It's not at all surprising that it is also used in neighboring Texas.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:To go from slight irregularities in voting, to saying that the City of Detroit did not vote whatsoever, is a bit extreme...not to mention comical.  The remedy is to fix the irregularity, where it is found, and otherwise count all votes.  Couldn't be simpler.

We all know what this is about.  The City of Detroit is in Wayne County, Michigan.  The Detroit Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area (PMSA)3 accounts for 72 percent of the state's metropolitan black population, and, within the Detroit PMSA, Wayne County holds 85 percent of the PMSA total, with a black population of 864,627, representing 42 percent of its total population.

This is just another ruse to suppress the vote of a racial minority.  It is a typical use of Jim Crow logic: white County Board imposes arbitrary authority to eliminate democracy in black areas.  This tactic has been used in the State of Mississippi (which has majority black population) since the Civil War.  It's not at all surprising that it is also used in neighboring Texas.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

No one said they didnt vote.

2 commissioners wanted an audit. Now they will get it.

Audits are good. Audits are necessary. That's how they catch fraud.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:34 pm

A man who tried to run for mayor in Hawthorne is among two people charged in a voter fraud case in which thousands of fraudulent voter registration applications were allegedly submitted on behalf of homeless people, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office announced Tuesday.

Carlos Antonio De Bourbon Montenegro -- also known as Mark Anthony Gonsalves -- was set to be arraigned Tuesday in a downtown Los Angeles courtroom on 18 felony counts of voter fraud, 11 felony counts of procuring a false or forged instrument, two felony counts of perjury and one felony count of conspiracy to commit voter fraud, along with nine misdemeanor counts of interference with a prompt transfer of a completed affidavit, according to the District Attorney's Office.

Montenegro, 53, allegedly submitted more than 8,000 fraudulent voter registration applications between July and October, as well as allegedly falsifying names, addresses and signatures on nomination papers under penalty of perjury to run for mayor in Hawthorne.


This is why audits are a good idea.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:19 pm

Much ado about nothing. really. Just an attempt at voter suppression of minorities, that got caught,

Gotta watch those Russo-Republicans.
Wink

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:Much ado about nothing. really.  Just an attempt at voter suppression of minorities, that got caught,

Gotta watch those Russo-Republicans.
 Wink

Yeah, you're real concerned about voter fraud. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Much ado about nothing. really.  Just an attempt at voter suppression of minorities, that got caught,

Gotta watch those Russo-Republicans.
 Wink

Yeah, you're real concerned about voter fraud.  Rolling Eyes

Don't know why anybody would be concerned about voter fraud in this election, really. Numerous state officials, along with the Department of Homeland Security, say it's one of the most secure elections in U.S. history, because so many people voted by mail that there's a clear paper trail for the majority of the ballots.

Trump has had his lawsuits laughed out of court by judges he appointed himself. Some judges have pointed out that the basis of the lawsuit seems to be confusion about matters that wouldn't have been confusing, had the Trump election observers bothered to attend the orientation class before the election was held.

The truth is, the vote was the honest reflection of the will of the American people, and they overwhelmingly chose Joe Biden to take over the job from Trump. But Trump is really good at making noise, distracting people from reality and attracting attention to himself.

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Post by eddie on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:29 pm

Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:03 pm

eddie wrote:Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

Maybe Trump does. Only those who really know him can have any insight into whether he really believes that, or if he's saying the vote was rigged as a way to protect his ego.

Now he's saying there's some secret government computer system that changed the votes. I wish I was joking -- and some of his supporters are going on TV saying the same thing.

If he had any evidence of a secret government computer system, or any other voter fraud, that'd be one thing. But nobody has been able to prove, or even show evidence to suggest, that anything happened in this election that could have dishonestly taken the victory away from him.

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Post by eddie on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:08 pm

Oh let him ramble. He will soon wear himself out and be on to the next shiny thing.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:16 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

Maybe Trump does. Only those who really know him can have any insight into whether he really believes that, or if he's saying the vote was rigged as a way to protect his ego.

His niece Mary, notes that Trump confuses value with fact. His father so emphasized that one cannot lose, that the value of 'not losing' motivates him to simply deny reality. The guy is borderline...

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:48 am

eddie wrote:Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

There is voter fraud every election. It's not enough to swing a presidential election. But its enough to warrant prosecution.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:50 am

eddie wrote:Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

A man who tried to run for mayor in Hawthorne is among two people charged in a voter fraud case in which thousands of fraudulent voter registration applications were allegedly submitted on behalf of homeless people, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office announced Tuesday.

Carlos Antonio De Bourbon Montenegro -- also known as Mark Anthony Gonsalves -- was set to be arraigned Tuesday in a downtown Los Angeles courtroom on 18 felony counts of voter fraud, 11 felony counts of procuring a false or forged instrument, two felony counts of perjury and one felony count of conspiracy to commit voter fraud, along with nine misdemeanor counts of interference with a prompt transfer of a completed affidavit, according to the District Attorney's Office.

Montenegro, 53, allegedly submitted more than 8,000 fraudulent voter registration applications between July and October, as well as allegedly falsifying names, addresses and signatures on nomination papers under penalty of perjury to run for mayor in Hawthorne.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:51 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Yeah, you're real concerned about voter fraud.  Rolling Eyes

Don't know why anybody would be concerned about voter fraud in this election, really. Numerous state officials, along with the Department of Homeland Security, say it's one of the most secure elections in U.S. history, because so many people voted by mail that there's a clear paper trail for the majority of the ballots.

Trump has had his lawsuits laughed out of court by judges he appointed himself. Some judges have pointed out that the basis of the lawsuit seems to be confusion about matters that wouldn't have been confusing, had the Trump election observers bothered to attend the orientation class before the election was held.

The truth is, the vote was the honest reflection of the will of the American people, and they overwhelmingly chose Joe Biden to take over the job from Trump. But Trump is really good at making noise, distracting people from reality and attracting attention to himself.

Because it happens and its illegal.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:11 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:Does anyone really believe that there were rigged votes? I mean, really???

There is voter fraud every election.

I think that's doubtful.  I've seen no evidence of voter fraud.  Accusations, yes.  The accusations go up as soon as the issue becomes a political football.  But mostly, it's could've and might've...and no one hangs around long enough to see the results of the trial.

Since Donald Trump, the efforts at Republican voter suppression have taken the form of accusations of voter fraud in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, to try to suppress those votes by legal means.  But when they get into court and the judge demands they put up or shut up, they slink away with tail tucked.

For the average Democrat, there's neither money nor advantage in voter fraud.  Republicans, yes...those guys have to pay taxes on their inflated incomes, so they occasionally advance schemes to affect election outcomes.  But fortunately, as one goes up the income ladder, there are fewer and fewer of them…hence, fewer and fewer election fraud cases.

The United States Department of Justice has determined that in studies of the 2002 and 2004 federal elections, cases of election fraud occurred in only 0.00000013 percent of ballots cast.  See, Brennan Center, NYU School of Law, “Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth” (citation below).  Indeed, A study published by a Columbia University political scientist tracked incidence rates for voter fraud for two years, and found that the rare fraud that was reported generally could be traced to “false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error.”

Coincidentally, the false claim of Donald Trump is what prompts the present concern in 2020.  Turns out, it’s a naked form of voter suppression.

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legal-work/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pdf

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

There is voter fraud every election.

I think that's doubtful.  I've seen no evidence of voter fraud.  Accusations, yes.  The accusations go up as soon as the issue becomes a political football.  But mostly, it's could've and might've...and no one hangs around long enough to see the results of the trial.

Since Donald Trump, the efforts at Republican voter suppression have taken the form of accusations of voter fraud in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, to try to suppress those votes by legal means.  But when they get into court and the judge demands they put up or shut up, they slink away with tail tucked.

For the average Democrat, there's neither money nor advantage in voter fraud.  Republicans, yes...those guys have to pay taxes on their inflated incomes, so they occasionally advance schemes to affect election outcomes.  But fortunately, as one goes up the income ladder, there are fewer and fewer of them…hence, fewer and fewer election fraud cases.

The United States Department of Justice has determined that in studies of the 2002 and 2004 federal elections, cases of election fraud occurred in only 0.00000013 percent of ballots cast.  See, Brennan Center, NYU School of Law, “Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth” (citation below).  Indeed, A study published by a Columbia University political scientist tracked incidence rates for voter fraud for two years, and found that the rare fraud that was reported generally could be traced to “false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error.”

Coincidentally, the false claim of Donald Trump is what prompts the present concern in 2020.  Turns out, it’s a naked form of voter suppression.

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legal-work/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pdf

I've given enough examples.

You ignore them.


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Post by Original Quill on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:37 pm

Rightly so.  They are unproven examples, yet to go to trial...if that even happens.

And, our concern as a public is, will it change anything?  The obvious answer is NO.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:Rightly so.  They are unproven examples, yet to go to trial...if that even happens.

And, our concern as a public is, will it change anything?  The obvious answer is NO.

Nothing changes by ignoring it.

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Post by Original Quill Yesterday at 7:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Rightly so.  They are unproven examples, yet to go to trial...if that even happens.

And, our concern as a public is, will it change anything?  The obvious answer is NO.

Nothing changes by ignoring it.  

We properly ignore things that are irrelevant.  Under Rule 401, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, an item of proof is relevant only if "it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence".  At issue is an election, not a single vote.  Your evidence misplaced.

You make the same mistake that Trump makes.  The facts you raise are probative of a single incident of alleged fraud, but not probative of the validity of an entire election.  (And, since the charges have not yet gone to trial, they are not even proven facts...they are only allegations.)  You have forgotten what is important…the plurality of the vote.

In order for the incidents you raise to be probative of an entire election, you would have to have the entire election tally, and amass enough proven fraudulent votes to determine the plurality.  You can never generalize from specifics.

You do not have enough votes to create a generalization of any size or kind, let alone a plurality.  A specific vote does not determine a whole election. This is the reason why courts have rejected over 50 of Trump's case filings...he lacks the right evidence.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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Post by Maddog Yesterday at 11:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Nothing changes by ignoring it.  

We properly ignore things that are irrelevant.  Under Rule 401, Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, an item of proof is relevant only if "it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence".  At issue is an election, not a single vote.  Your evidence misplaced.

You make the same mistake that Trump makes.  The facts you raise are probative of a single incident of alleged fraud, but not probative of the validity of an entire election.  (And, since the charges have not yet gone to trial, they are not even proven facts...they are only allegations.)  You have forgotten what is important…the plurality of the vote.

In order for the incidents you raise to be probative of an entire election, you would have to have the entire election tally, and amass enough proven fraudulent votes to determine the plurality.  You can never generalize from specifics.

You do not have enough votes to create a generalization of any size or kind, let alone a plurality.  A specific vote does not determine a whole election.  This is the reason why courts have rejected over 50 of Trump's case filings...he lacks the right evidence.

I never said it changed the whole election.

I have said from the beginning that there is no where near enough fraud to alter the results of the presidential election.

I have said it happens on a small scale and needs to be addressed no matter how small the scale.

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Post by Original Quill Today at 3:36 am

Maddog wrote:I have said it happens on a small scale and needs to be addressed no matter how small the scale.

And I've said no one is interested in that question...even if you could prove it is a crime. The sujet du jour is the election and the fool Trump is making of himself over trying to overturn an election over allegations of a single act or incident.

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Post by Maddog Today at 4:14 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:I have said it happens on a small scale and needs to be addressed no matter how small the scale.

And I've said no one is interested in that question...even if you could prove it is a crime.  The sujet du jour is the election and the fool Trump is making of himself over trying to overturn an election over allegations of a single act or incident.

I think a lot of people are concerned with fraud regardless of the scale.

I also believe that you're not concerned with fraud. It matches the character you display around here,

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pa·ter·nal·ism

noun

The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
Maddog
Maddog
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