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Will Italy be the next country to leave the EU?

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Will Italy be the next country to leave the EU? Empty Will Italy be the next country to leave the EU?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:27 am


Italexit campaign ‘No Europe - For Italy’ launches on Thursday with advice from Farage

ITALY will officially launch a campaign to unshackle itself from the EU on Thursday as the Mediterranean country looks to follow in Britain's Brexit footsteps






https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1312247/Italexit-latest-campaign-Gianluigi-Paragon-Italy-leave-EU-Nigel-Farage

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Italexit, Amexit, Brexit...right now the world seems to favor national divorce and decentralization.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:15 pm





This thread has nothing to do with America or Trump... So stop diverting threads...






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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:This thread has nothing to do with America or Trump... So stop diverting threads...

Diverting?  I'm merely positing that the movement is much larger than you expect.  Can you prove that Brexit not the same thing as Amexit? (And no one has said anything about Trump; why are you going there?)

Why is it that you RW'ers are always using rules and artificial barriers to censor things?  Why not let the market determine the validity of ideas.  What are you afraid of?

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:52 pm





Go away quill...



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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:03 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Go away quill...

Why? Everything is closed around here due to the Trump virus.

I might as well hang around and point out the holes of your story. It's supposed to be a debate forum. That's what debating is all about. Or do you think this is tommy's personal little soapbox?

Any other inane ideas?

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Italexit campaign ‘No Europe - For Italy’ launches on Thursday with advice from Farage

ITALY will officially launch a campaign to unshackle itself from the EU on Thursday as the Mediterranean country looks to follow in Britain's Brexit footsteps






https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1312247/Italexit-latest-campaign-Gianluigi-Paragon-Italy-leave-EU-Nigel-Farage




This is the topic of this thread...


If you want to debate other topics then start your own threads...



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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Italexit campaign ‘No Europe - For Italy’ launches on Thursday with advice from Farage

ITALY will officially launch a campaign to unshackle itself from the EU on Thursday as the Mediterranean country looks to follow in Britain's Brexit footsteps

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1312247/Italexit-latest-campaign-Gianluigi-Paragon-Italy-leave-EU-Nigel-Farage

This is the topic of this thread...

If you want to debate other topics then start your own threads...

Tommy, you are off-topic right now, talking about 'what is' a thread topic, rather than addressing the topic itself.  According to the title, we are discussing the expansion of Brexit to Italy.

Just accept that a discussion about expansion of a movement has gone on to included further incidents.  What?  Were we just to hail your precious words as final?  This is a debate forum, not a soapbox.

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:58 pm




No... The thread is about Italy leaving the EU...



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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... The thread is about Italy leaving the EU...

Which opens the discussion to other comments about partitioning of political entities. Tommy, you can raise a topic, but you can't dictate where it goes or what others have to say about it. You want to dictate what others think and say, and you can't do that on a debate forum. Rolling Eyes

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


No... The thread is about Italy leaving the EU...



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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:No... The thread is about Italy leaving the EU...

Which opens the discussion to other comments about partitioning of political entities.  Tommy, you can raise a topic, but you can't dictate where it goes or what others have to say about it.  You want to dictate what others think and say, and you can't do that on a debate forum.  Rolling Eyes

I get pissed off when people divert from topics too. If the topic is about Italy leaving the EU then perhaps it’s better to stick to the topic of Italy leaving the EU? scratch

If we start wandering off and discussing US politics then it’s not the same thing, is it?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:00 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Which opens the discussion to other comments about partitioning of political entities.  Tommy, you can raise a topic, but you can't dictate where it goes or what others have to say about it.  You want to dictate what others think and say, and you can't do that on a debate forum.  Rolling Eyes

I get pissed off when people divert from topics too. If the topic is about Italy leaving the EU then perhaps it’s better to stick to the topic of Italy leaving the EU? scratch

If we start wandering off and discussing US politics then it’s not the same thing, is it?

And, if the topic is about nations parting/dividing, what is that?  You can pick any fence you want, it's still a fence.

I dislike the rule of topic fences, because it always depends on whose relevance you want to take sides with.  It's a faux rule because it's a form of telling someone what they can say, and what they cannot say.  Simply put, it's a form of censorship: I want to shut up [name], so I'll claim s/he is off topic.

Eds, you are just taking the conservative's side, as usual.  But it's plain authoritarianism...you have the mod buttons, so you get to tell others what they can and cannot say.  You can shut anyone up by simply saying, I deem it off-topic.

If you come over to a site where I have the buttons, I'll shut you down on threads (telling you your 'off-topic') for, say, a week, so you can see how it works and what an effective censorship tool it is.

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:06 pm

“The conservative’s side”?
What are you wishwashing on about now? I didn’t “press any buttons” nor did I tell you what to say.

Would you like to hear my point about WHY I prefer a thread to stay on topic?

It’s simple. Listen.

If we stick to the actual topic then we get to discuss the actual topic and it doesn’t descend into the usual stuff that normally happens. If you started a topic about let’s say, Trump, and I came along and started talking about David Cameron, then we aren’t discussing Trump, are we? Would it not be better for me to make a thread about Cameron and discuss my thoughts there?

So you see, it isn’t about conservatives, liberals or buttons.

Do you see?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:13 pm

eddie wrote:Would you like to hear my point about WHY I prefer a thread to stay on topic?

It’s simple. Listen.

If we stick to the actual topic then we get to discuss the actual topic and it doesn’t descend into the usual stuff that normally happens. If you started a topic about let’s say, Trump, and I came along and started talking about David Cameron, then we aren’t discussing Trump, are we? Would it not be better for me to make a thread about Cameron and discuss my thoughts there?

Eddie...did you notice you are off-topic? What do you have to say about Italy and its departure of ways from its neighbors?

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Would you like to hear my point about WHY I prefer a thread to stay on topic?

It’s simple. Listen.

If we stick to the actual topic then we get to discuss the actual topic and it doesn’t descend into the usual stuff that normally happens. If you started a topic about let’s say, Trump, and I came along and started talking about David Cameron, then we aren’t discussing Trump, are we? Would it not be better for me to make a thread about Cameron and discuss my thoughts there?

Eddie...did you notice you are off-topic?  What do you have to say about Italy and its departure of ways from its neighbors?

Touché my friend. Wink

I think Italy should leave. We did and we are fine so far.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:54 pm

Eds, I lov your new addy.  I've seen it before, some where.  Curiously, your red hair and the magenta tulips go well together.  And such a fun smile.

cheers

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:Eds, I lov your addy.  I've seen it before, some where.  Curiously, your red hair and the magenta tulips go well together.  And such a fun smile.

cheers

Hahahahaha well those flowers are my friends as it’s her house. I did try to steal them.

Thank you, Quill. It was a fun day. It was Ben’s first trip to the UK.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:59 pm

eddie wrote:I think Italy should leave. We did and we are fine so far.

There seems to be a pattern of the wealthy nations wanting to go it alone, leaving the needy ones. That's how ghettos are formed.

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"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:I think Italy should leave. We did and we are fine so far.

There seems to be a pattern of the wealthy nations wanting to go it alone, leaving the needy ones.  That's how ghettos are formed.

Well perhaps the “wealthy nations” will make it better for the less wealthy ones by leaving? I don’t know. I think each nation has the right to govern itself.
We will have to see how the Italians vote.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:15 pm

Okay, here's my two cents (should I be saying 'two pence' now???):

Poster A: A guy got shot downtown last night, according to the news.

Poster B: Seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

Poster A: You're diverting from the topic! This is only about that one guy who got shot!

Nah, not having it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the original topic seems to fit a trend, imho.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:18 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, here's my two cents (should I be saying 'two pence' now???):

Poster A: A guy got shot downtown last night, according to the news.

Poster B: Seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

Poster A: You're diverting from the topic! This is only about that one guy who got shot!

Nah, not having it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the original topic seems to fit a trend, imho.

That’s fair enough but if poster B only wants to talk about gun crime then it’s not really about the story, is it? If Poster B says that then continues with his opinion about the OP then that’s fine, but if he waffles on about gun crime in general and “gun crime in his area” that’s 100,000 miles away then....?

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Post by Vintage on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:21 pm

Why not discuss Italy leaving the EU first, as that is the actual topic then later in the thread we can bring in other countries who may want to leave the EU or any other union.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 pm

Vintage wrote:Why not discuss Italy leaving the EU first, as that is the actual topic then later in the thread we can bring in other countries who may want to leave the EU or any other union.

Exactly.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:27 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, here's my two cents (should I be saying 'two pence' now???):

Poster A: A guy got shot downtown last night, according to the news.

Poster B: Seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

Poster A: You're diverting from the topic! This is only about that one guy who got shot!

Nah, not having it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the original topic seems to fit a trend, imho.

That’s fair enough but if poster B only wants to talk about gun crime then it’s not really about the story, is it? If Poster B says that then continues with his opinion about the OP then that’s fine, but if he waffles on about gun crime in general and “gun crime in his area” that’s 100,000 miles away then....?

Fair enough, but there's no reason threads can't also have a conversational element, or even move from one topic to another over their course. I'd rather people feel free to say what they want to say.

Quill, I'm not about to allow people to be silenced simply because they said something that someone else subjectively judges as off-topic. Of course, it's better to stick to the topic, but nobody will be punished for not doing so.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:29 pm

Yes of course they can have a conversational element! This thread isn’t a great example actually but I prefer to stick to the topic.

Which I’m not doing now, as Quill pointed out, so I’m orf!

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:45 pm

A good thread should be like a car journey to a destination -- there can be detours, but it should generally stay on course.

It's frustrating and annoying when someone starts a thread about, say, turnips, and someone else comes in and tries to make it about, say, Trump. That's what I refer to as spamming -- consistently attempting to divert threads to one of your favorite pet topics. We don't want that around here, because it's frankly boring and counterproductive.

But it can be tricky when a topic is part of a trend, or when someone brings up, say, Trump, because Trump is actually relevent to the thread, but someone else accuses that person of diverting because of politics. It's always going to come down to a judgement call as to whether it's genuinely spamming or not.

So to sum up: Yes, this thread should be about Italy considering leaving the EU -- the reasons behind it, what might happen if it does, etc. But there's nothing wrong with pointing out that this spirit seems to exist in a lot of other places as well.

There may very well be parallel reasons for wanting to exit alliances in those places as well. There may even be an observation to be made that people sure seem to trust one another less these days. That isn't spamming. But steering loads of threads to the topic you want to talk about, by hook or by crook, even if they're barely related, is definitely spamming.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:47 pm

That’s a fair and good post. I tend to agree.

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Post by Vintage on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:49 pm

'over the course' implies to me that a thread digresses along the way, not instantly.
While I don't want to be critical but I will although it could just be me, so many threads end up, despite whatever they started with, being about one issue.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:51 pm

Vintage wrote:'over the course' implies to me that a thread digresses along the way, not instantly.
While I don't want to be critical but I will although it could just be me, so many threads end up, despite whatever they started with, being about one issue.

That’s my main beef with topics digressing. They always digress to the same old topic and it’s boring.
I like to discuss the actual topic.

Having said that, I’ve completely derailed this topic! Rolling Eyes

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:52 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, here's my two cents (should I be saying 'two pence' now???):

Poster A: A guy got shot downtown last night, according to the news.

Poster B: Seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

Poster A: You're diverting from the topic! This is only about that one guy who got shot!

Nah, not having it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the original topic seems to fit a trend, imho.

That’s fair enough but if poster B only wants to talk about gun crime then it’s not really about the story, is it? If Poster B says that then continues with his opinion about the OP then that’s fine, but if he waffles on about gun crime in general and “gun crime in his area” that’s 100,000 miles away then....?

See, I'm always for freedom of speech. The free market of ideas—let the competition sort it out, not the mod—should be the determining factor. And Ben is right on. What is the point of discussion if you are just going to say (state topic), then it's all I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree...ad nauseam.

People have new ideas, new twists, new information, and the threads (at least the good ones) expand that way. That's why broad threads--like Lurkers down in politics--are so popular. They have big arms, and embrace a lot of ideas.

But to go back to my point, no one really wants to stick to a topic. It's a disingenuous use of the rules. I've never heard someone genuinely argue that they don't want to hear anything new. It's really always an attempt, through the rules, to censor the other interlocutor.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:54 pm

You don’t have to agree to stay on topic, Quill.

And Ben’s last post summed it up perfectly. As did Vintage’s last post.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:54 pm

And just to do my part to bring this thread vaguely back on topic -- practically every geographic area on the planet has people who want independence. There have been seccessionists in Texas since before the Civil War, and I recently learned there are people in Cornwall who want independence from the rest of England.

Just pointing out that because there are people who want to leave a larger governmental body that they're part of does not mean it's going to happen, or even that there's a remote chance it will happen. So I'll have to hear much more about Italexit before I think there might be momentum behind the idea.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:12 pm

Re his second post: Ben seems to be right on point.

eddie wrote:You don’t have to agree to stay on topic, Quill.

And Ben’s last post summed it up perfectly. As did Vintage’s last post.

But if the exception you wish to raise involves bringing up something new, you so often hear: Oh, that's off-topic!  For example, I've heard the following:

Tax cuts are fair and equitable.

But tax cuts so often are a means to shift wealth to the rich, and burden the poor.

Well,  wealth shifting is not the topic of this thread.  We are talking about tax cuts.  Go start your own thread!!

You hear this all the time.  Crucial differences of opinion turn on framing issues, so often when someone tries to raise a new framework s/he is hit with the 'off-topic' accusation.

POST STARTED BEFORE RETURN TO TOPIC

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:37 pm

(Sent you a PM Quill)

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:51 pm

eddie wrote:(Sent you a PM Quill)

Got it. Thx.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:01 pm




Every single thread these days ends up getting diverted by quill into some anti trump and anti republican waffle... And it is getting very boring...


Plus it is against the rules...




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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:45 pm




'Let people vote!' Dutch PM Rutte faces referendum demand amid EU budget fury
EU leaders are facing the harsh response of the European Parliament to their recovery fund deal agreed this week, with Dutch MEP Derk Jan Eppink now calling for a referendum in his country to thwart the Brussels decision.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1313298/eu-news-eu-recovery-fund-european-parliament-mark-rutte-derk-jan-eppink




Britain has saved £72bn! German MEP celebrates Brexit as he lays into EU spending plans
LEADING eurosceptic Gunnar Beck celebrated Brexit as a move that has saved Britain sending billions of pounds to the European Union's coronavirus recovery fund.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1313294/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Parliament-budget-recovery-fund-Gunnar-Beck-Germany-latest-update




Leading MEP names SEVEN nations heading for EU exits as they 'poison' Brussels bloc
LEADING MEP Phillipe Lamberts named and shamed the seven EU countries that are tearing Brussels apart from the inside and heading down the same path as the UK before the Brexit referendum.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1313274/European-Union-crisis-Phillipe-Lamberts-Brussels-Frugals-Mark-Rutte-Parliament-latest



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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:49 pm





Macron admits France 'probably' would have backed quitting the EU if it held a referendum

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5294037/Macron-admits-France-probably-voted-quit-EU.html


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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:50 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Every single thread these days ends up getting diverted by quill into some anti trump and anti republican waffle... And it is getting very boring...

Plus it is against the rules...

Tommy, you're upset. Don't be. Try harder to argue your point instead of whining about the rules. If the rules are the only way you can win the point, perhaps your point isn't that strong. Will Italy be the next country to leave the EU? 2190311264

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:09 pm





Yawn...



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:39 pm

Wink

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Post by eddie on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:14 pm

Tommy, just chill.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


Every single thread these days ends up getting diverted by quill into some anti trump and anti republican waffle... And it is getting very boring...


Plus it is against the rules...




He spews nonsense on bullshit on every thread.

It's a never ending demonstration of his arrogance.

It is very boring.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:40 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, here's my two cents (should I be saying 'two pence' now???):

Poster A: A guy got shot downtown last night, according to the news.

Poster B: Seems to be a lot of that going around these days!

Poster A: You're diverting from the topic! This is only about that one guy who got shot!

Nah, not having it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the original topic seems to fit a trend, imho.



"...When somebody offers their opinion about something, usually to an ongoing debate, they might say " . . . that's my two pennyworth" (pronounced 'penneth'). It conveys a sort of modesty by valuing their opinion as only being worth two pence..."



And thank fuk we're not in the EURO €... then we would be talking in terms of 'two cents' rather than "tuppence"...!





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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:42 am

eddie wrote:Tommy, just chill.



I am... as always... very chilled...!


Laughing



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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:57 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


'Let people vote!' Dutch PM Rutte faces referendum demand amid EU budget fury
EU leaders are facing the harsh response of the European Parliament to their recovery fund deal agreed this week, with Dutch MEP Derk Jan Eppink now calling for a referendum in his country to thwart the Brussels decision.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1313298/eu-news-eu-recovery-fund-european-parliament-mark-rutte-derk-jan-eppink




Britain has saved £72bn! German MEP celebrates Brexit as he lays into EU spending plans
LEADING eurosceptic Gunnar Beck celebrated Brexit as a move that has saved Britain sending billions of pounds to the European Union's coronavirus recovery fund.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1313294/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Parliament-budget-recovery-fund-Gunnar-Beck-Germany-latest-update




Leading MEP names SEVEN nations heading for EU exits as they 'poison' Brussels bloc
LEADING MEP Phillipe Lamberts named and shamed the seven EU countries that are tearing Brussels apart from the inside and heading down the same path as the UK before the Brexit referendum.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1313274/European-Union-crisis-Phillipe-Lamberts-Brussels-Frugals-Mark-Rutte-Parliament-latest



Still want this thread to just be about Italy? Wink

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:07 am




The OP title asks the question whether Italy will be the next country to leave the EU...


If other EU countries might be set to leave sooner than Italy... Then it is of course relevant here to mention which and why...



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Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The OP title asks the question whether Italy will be the next country to leave the EU...

If other EU countries might be set to leave sooner than Italy... Then it is of course relevant here to mention which and why...

Why only the EU? Pandemic means world-wide. Besides, you and the Brits no longer have a stake in the EU. Would you swap out for Asia? Laughing

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:09 pm

quill
1)we are talking here about the instability of the EU
2) whilst the pandemic may have a bearing, in as much as it provides a catalyst, it is otherwise irrelevant
3)whether we have a stake or not is irrelevent

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