BLM remove and "drown" statue of racist slave trader in Bristol.

First topic message reminder :

Justified or not?

https://mol.im/a/8396511

Apparently the council were already consider it removing it for it's  racist undertones.

My opinion is the Council should have pre-empted this and declared they were going to remove on a certain day.
Job done, everyone satisfied.

And don't forget that muslims were enslaving black Africans for centuries before this...

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Colston was among those who initiated the business of slavery, and had to consciously deliberate over the values of  committing human lives to permanent bondage.  True, today we are sickened by the southern zeitgeist of racism, but there are even worst times in our (Anglo-American) history.  Edward Colston owns that part.

However, this is not to excuse men like Washington and Jefferson, and Les, if you feel removing them from Mt. Rushmore is the proper retribution, by all means, I wouldn't stand in the way.  They do owe a debt for subscribing to slavery.

What you are doing is judging the founders by today's standards, and lord knows I do the same for past and present southerners.  There's never a bad time to do the right thing.

Sorry Quill, but the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade was not initiated by Colston, or even England. Portugal began things in the 1500s. England quickly joined and became the biggest abuser, but that was 300 years before Colston. He was, as said, a product of his time.

It actually began in the 1400's.  But Colston was in the thick of things when it counted.

But we are in agreement about Washington and Jefferson.  They should be removed from Mt. Rushmore.  The Washington monument should be torn down, as well.  Out with the old, and in with the new.

As far as rewriting history is concerned, we should think of it as writing a continuing history.  This is us, now!  By our deeds and accomplishments today, we take specific actions that write a new chapter...as much deserving of monuments as any previous chapter.

There is no seam between past and present.  We are progressively becoming better and better, and we need our monuments to keep pace.

Original Quill wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Colston was among those who initiated the business of slavery, and had to consciously deliberate over the values of  committing human lives to permanent bondage.  True, today we are sickened by the southern zeitgeist of racism, but there are even worst times in our (Anglo-American) history.  Edward Colston owns that part.

However, this is not to excuse men like Washington and Jefferson, and Les, if you feel removing them from Mt. Rushmore is the proper retribution, by all means, I wouldn't stand in the way.  They do owe a debt for subscribing to slavery.

What you are doing is judging the founders by today's standards, and lord knows I do the same for past and present southerners.  There's never a bad time to do the right thing.

Sorry Quill, but the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade was not initiated by Colston, or even England. Portugal began things in the 1500s. England quickly joined and became the biggest abuser, but that was 300 years before Colston. He was, as said, a product of his time.

It actually began in the 1400's.  But Colston was in the thick of things when it counted.

But we are in agreement about Washington and Jefferson.  They should be removed from Mt. Rushmore.  The Washington monument should be torn down, as well.  Out with the old, and in with the new.

As far as rewriting history is concerned, we should think of it as writing a continuing history.  This is us, now!  By our deeds and accomplishments today, we take specific actions that write a new chapter...as much deserving of monuments as any previous chapter.

There is no seam between past and present.  We are progressively becoming better and better, and we need our monuments to keep pace.

We aren't in agreement on Rushmore I'm afraid. That wasjust an example of where this kind of destroy all symbols of bad history leads to.

Abu Simbel in Egypt was most likely built by slaves too. What is the cut off date for destroying imagery of peoole who were bad by modern standards?

Think of places where iconoclasm happened due to revolutionary thinkers wanting to crush the old entirely and you come to Mao and Cromwell - tyrants ultimately.

The next step is book burning. I know Lovecraft is fairly condemned as a racist, will his books be first on the fire? People are attacking Rowling now for saying the 'wrong' thing about Trans rights, so perhaps Potter will be first to burn.

We need to tackle racism as it exists NOW, not look for old figures and remove the past from the public. If anything it just gives real racists a rallying point.

Les wrote:We need to tackle racism as it exists NOW, not look for old figures and remove the past from the public. If anything it just gives real racists a rallying point.

Ah, but history rules.  Not as a cold, inanimate statue.  But as the force that shapes our here and now...as well as the future. History is continuity and change, pausing only to test the scent of a flower or two.

History has created our modern form of slavery, and to history we should turn for answers.  If I am right--and I am--that an analogy to primitive beasts of burden shaped our own perception of Africans, and shaped our idea of how to use them, then it was ourselves as Englishmen (well, I'm a Scot) that created this modern brute we call racism.

Brutus wrote:Justified or not?

https://mol.im/a/8396511

Apparently the council were already consider it removing it for it's  racist undertones.

My opinion is the Council should have pre-empted this and declared they were going to remove on a certain day.
Job done, everyone satisfied.

history should be left alone, it happened..

+1

History belongs in museums. The statue could have sat there quite happily, along with artefacts from that era, giving detailed explanations of what happened, why it happened and given fuller details of life in that era.

Original Quill wrote:

Les wrote:We need to tackle racism as it exists NOW, not look for old figures and remove the past from the public. If anything it just gives real racists a rallying point.

Ah, but history rules.  Not as a cold, inanimate statue.  But as the force that shapes our here and now...as well as the future.  History is continuity and change, pausing only to test the scent of a flower or two.

History has created our modern form of slavery, and to history we should turn for answers.  If I am right--and I am--that an analogy to primitive beasts of burden shaped our own perception of Africans, and shaped our idea of how to use them, then it was ourselves as Englishmen (well, I'm a Scot) that created this modern brute we call racism.

Removing a statue will not change that whatsoever.
It only sews further discontent and makes a bunch of single minded middle class, mostly white people feel a bit better about themselves.

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Ah, but history rules.  Not as a cold, inanimate statue.  But as the force that shapes our here and now...as well as the future.  History is continuity and change, pausing only to test the scent of a flower or two.

History has created our modern form of slavery, and to history we should turn for answers.  If I am right--and I am--that an analogy to primitive beasts of burden shaped our own perception of Africans, and shaped our idea of how to use them, then it was ourselves as Englishmen (well, I'm a Scot) that created this modern brute we call racism.

Removing a statue will not change that whatsoever.
It only sews further discontent and makes a bunch of single minded middle class, mostly white people feel a bit better about themselves.

Real legislation is being sponsored in Congress right now, that will make a difference.

The removal of statues is about pissing off people you dont agree with. Not progress.

Perhaps we should erect a statute of El Chapo (Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera) somewhere, perhaps several. He is the father of the drug trade in the US, and that is definitely a part of our history.

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Ah, but history rules.  Not as a cold, inanimate statue.  But as the force that shapes our here and now...as well as the future.  History is continuity and change, pausing only to test the scent of a flower or two.

History has created our modern form of slavery, and to history we should turn for answers.  If I am right--and I am--that an analogy to primitive beasts of burden shaped our own perception of Africans, and shaped our idea of how to use them, then it was ourselves as Englishmen (well, I'm a Scot) that created this modern brute we call racism.

Removing a statue will not change that whatsoever.
It only sews further discontent and makes a bunch of single minded middle class, mostly white people feel a bit better about themselves.

I think you are wrong, Les.  You might have noticed the US is going into a fourth week of massive protests in every state, and every major city in the US.  These statues are symbols of the neo-slavery movement in America, and as such their presence is as inflammatory as removing them.

I see that the alt.right libertarians are beginning to show up with their AR-15's.  Perhaps they will provoke a second neo-slavery war in the US.  Is that preferable?

If the UK is picking up on the movement, perhaps we will see a WWIII over neo-slavery issues. I know France and the rest of Europe are girding for something.

I see yet again the left are led by primitive negative emotions

As already stated we have had history and events from the parts

Monuments and buildings are a reminder not only of the good but of the bad in the past

What sense is there in knocking something down?

So lets apply this reasoning here for the left to ponder

St Paul's Cathedral, Westminster Abbey, The Basilica, the Sistine Chapel etc are all representations of Christian churches and organisations. Responsible for the systematic ethnic cleansing, murder, slavery crusades, rape torture etc of countless millions in history.

Countless sermons were preached here to enact violence and hate from these buildings

Shall we dynamite all these buildings?

How about the The Black Stone in Saudi Arabia?

The very symbol of Islam, that saw a far worse slave trade than the European version? That saw African males castrated and African females that got pregnant have their babies murdered?

Shall we set explosives to this?

How about the Genghis khan monument?

Someone who murdered as many people in comparability to Hitler and Mao?

How about statues to Mao. Who murdered more people than even Hitler did?

These monuments and buildings are a testament to the past. They remind us of what was wrong with the past. By destroying said moments., Then you are no better than ISIS.

As its actually art that you are destroying

That is what the left fail to grasp here

If people want to destroy art from history. Then we better become as bad as ISIS and just about destroy the vast majority of art around the world. As you will be hard press to come across any historical characters and buildings. That are not stained with violence, murder etc

+10000

Good. Self promoting idiot.

"The statue of a Black Lives Matter protester has been taken down after it was secretly installed to replace the monument of slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol.

Council contractors were seen removing the statue at around 5.20am on Thursday.

The life-size sculpture of Black Lives Matter protester Jen Reid was only in place for one day, after it was installed in secret by London artist Marc Quinn without the knowledge of city officials on Wednesday."




https://news.sky.com/story/black-lives-matter-protester-statue-that-secretly-replaced-edward-colston-removed-by-bristol-council-12029425

Sir Tom Moore will be knighted today. The Queen will give the honour to him in person. It's the first face to face duty she will perform since March.
He raised over 32 million for the NHS.

I read this today...good idea imo.


"Let’s put this statue up of this wonderful man sir Tom"

How about Vera Lynn ?

nicko wrote:How about Vera Lynn ?

That's a good idea Nicko...!


Or... how about a statue of the 'Dambuster Dog'... The one owned by Wing Commander Guy Gibson of the Royal Air Force, and which was the mascot of No. 617 Squadron...?

Like it, but imagine the protests !