Yale believes a course about Western culture is too Western

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:33 pm

Yale University is abandoning one of its core courses, a comprehensive survey of 700+ years of Western art. It has been deemed too Western, white, and male – and now the art canon gets thrown under the woke bus.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/479975-yale-european-art-course/

by Guest Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 pm

I actually do not see anything wrong with this

Yes we should teach the history of art, but if we centre on this and not all art in history

Then its not a course of historical art. It is a separate course of European art

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:08 pm

What next?

A study of classical music being stopped because it was too white/male European...!?

by Guest Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:16 pm

The course has not been stripped of European art

The emphasis on European art has been stripped

How is that wrong Tommy?

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:49 pm

Isn't it a course on historical western art...?

by Guest Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:53 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Isn't it a course on historical western art...?

No.

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:12 pm

It says it is in the bit of the article that I read...

by Original Quill Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:51 pm

A university can have only so many core (mandatory) courses. Maybe the course wasn't popular, and so wasn't really relevant. Yale gets a lot of its students from Asia and other parts of the world. Perhaps those students would also like to learn about their own classics.

Replacing History of Western Art with World History of Art provides the opportunity to study, in-depth, other cultures, and introduces the possibility of a comparative art curriculum. History of Western Art can still continue, just not as a required course. https://studenthelp.secure.griffith.edu.au/app/answers/detail/a_id/299/~/what-is-a-core-course%3F

I think Yale is simply meeting the needs of their ever-changing student population. I'm sure that the Oxbridge and Scottish universities are doing the same thing, for the same reason.

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:11 pm

The article says the course was very popular... In fact, the article says the course was oversubscribed cos it was so popular...

by eddie Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The article says the course was very popular... In fact, the article says the course was oversubscribed cos it was so popular...

Perhaps someone was “offended”. There’s a huge surge of “offended people” nowadays.

by Ben Reilly Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:56 pm

Core courses are always popular because students must take them to get a degree. I think that if you're going to make courses mandatory, you shouldn't focus on one culture.

Nobody here would be thrilled to hear that Yale was forcing all students to take a class that focused on African art, right?

by Original Quill Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The article says the course was very popular... In fact, the article says the course was oversubscribed cos it was so popular...

There's nothing to prevent the course from continuing as an elective course. My understanding, from your chosen article, is that Western Art History was dropped as a core course.

Of course, if it is popular it will continue as an elective. If it draws students, it's money in the bank. These people aren't stupid.

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:31 pm

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

by Guest Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:32 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Core courses are always popular because students must take them to get a degree. I think that if you're going to make courses mandatory, you shouldn't focus on one culture.

Nobody here would be thrilled to hear that Yale was forcing all students to take a class that focused on African art, right?

Agreed. If there is a course on art, why does it only concentrate oi European art?
That makes very little sense. European art should simple be one of the many syllabuses from the course.

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

Again... For didge...

by Guest Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

Again... For didge...

And?

by Original Quill Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

Tom, what is the purpose of providing us with a definition of Renaissance art? It has nothing to do with the topic.

Stay on point.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:58 pm

I am on point... The art was in parallel with developments in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I am on point... The art was in parallel with developments in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

It still doesn't add to the discussion of whether a course on the 'History of Western Art' isn't ethnocentric.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:22 pm

Maybe none of the other renaissance things should be studied either then...

by Original Quill Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:28 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maybe none of the other renaissance things should be studied either then...

I think the idea is to zoom-out and widen the scope of the course. I'm sure the Renaissance will be included.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

Tom, what is the purpose of providing us with a definition of Renaissance art? It has nothing to do with the topic.

Stay on point.

Renaissance art is everything to do with the OP topic.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:57 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Tom, what is the purpose of providing us with a definition of Renaissance art? It has nothing to do with the topic.

Stay on point.

Renaissance art is everything to do with the OP topic.

No doubt, it is remotely related...you just don't seem to be able to connect it up to the specific discussion. We could discuss Impressionist art, Neoclassical art or Baroque art, all of which have to do with the History of Western Art.

But the real point is, the course of Western Art History leaves out Chinese art history, Polynesian art history or Japanese art history, which are equally deserving of inclusion in the Yale art curricula.

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Tom, what is the purpose of providing us with a definition of Renaissance art? It has nothing to do with the topic.

Stay on point.

Renaissance art is everything to do with the OP topic.

Does the period of Renaissance art cover only what happened in Europe or globally Tommy?

Or do you believe in censoring global art from this period, outside Europe?

The history of art, is an ever changing subject. Based on what we constantly rediscovering

So how is it wrong to scrap something, which fails to incorporate the majority of art. Outside of Europe?
Go figure

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:48 pm

Nothing is stopping anyone studying art from any other country/region historically... and there are plenty of courses that focus entirely on other specific countries or regions art historically...

But I think some here are missing the point...

The overwhelming vast majority of studies at the university are in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology... all of which are also of western European origin and thinking either from/since the renaissance...!

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Nothing is stopping anyone studying art from any other country/region historically... and there are plenty of courses that focus entirely on other specific countries or regions art historically...

But I think some here are missing the point...

The overwhelming vast majority of studies at the university are in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology... all of which are also of western European origin and thinking either from/since the renaissance...!

Actually there is something stopping students

When no course or class teaches non European Renaissance art

They are then being stopped and denied knowledge

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:01 am

What has non renaissance art got to do with all the other subjects that they are learning, which are all firmly rooted in western European origin...!?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:04 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

What has non renaissance art got to do with all the other subjects that they are learning, which are all firmly rooted in western European origin...!?

Do you know why its called renaissance art Tommy?

Because its based on an era of time.

Why should this era of time named by Europeans, Exclude art formed outside Europe at this time?

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:26 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

It is all of western European origin/thinking.

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:29 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

It is all of western European origin/thinking.

Is it?

Based on what evidence?

When there is cave paintings going back tens of thousands of years?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:30 am

Notice how tommy changed the subject?

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:44 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

What has non renaissance art got to do with all the other subjects that they are learning, which are all firmly rooted in western European origin...!?

by 'Wolfie Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:51 am

Considering that the only time that anti-science non-thinker and climate denialist Tommy will have visited any university will have been while working on the back of a garbage truck doing its daily rounds, or working as a day labourer with the groundskeepers...

I really can't be too bothered with what Tommy thinks about what any uni' wants to actually do with their curriculums..

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:59 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

What has non renaissance art got to do with all the other subjects that they are learning, which are all firmly rooted in western European origin...!?

Well, for one thing it focuses attention on comparative art traditions. There's a great to be learned in how cultures approach the tradition of art.

But, what is wrong with replacing History of Western Art with a course on the World History of Art. The idea is the same, but the scope is wider. And, as I said above, it leads to a discussion about the comparison of different cultures and their art.

A lot of understanding flows from discovering the connection of art to the ideas of the culture. For example, Greek art incorporated the Greek belief of nothing in excess, in the humbling depictions of their characters. How wonderful to study the connection between art and philosophy, and go beyond merely that little corner of the world known as Europe (and it's progeny). I would love to understand the Japanese and Polynesians in the same way.

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:02 am

So quill is clearly racist like tommy

Greek art was formed from the middle east quill

Not any imaginary concept you thought

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:14 am

phil wrote:Greek art was formed from the middle east quill

All the more reason to study the art of many different cultures, not just History of Western Art. You interlace their philosophical origins, and trace the lineage from one culture to the next. It's truly a world wide understanding of people through their art.

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:24 am

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:Greek art was formed from the middle east quill

All the more reason to study the art of many different cultures, not just History of Western Art. You interlace their philosophical origins, and trace the lineage from one culture to the next. It's truly a world wide understanding of people through their art.

Oh for fuck sake

This is why the extreme left never listen

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:43 am

Stick to the point. This isn't about left/right. It's about the history of art.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:13 am

I thought we were talking about western European art from the start of the renaissance and onwards...

All the other subjects at the university are based on western European origin and thinking from this time over the last 600 years or so...

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:32 am

Tommy Monk wrote:I thought we were talking about western European art from the start of the renaissance and onwards...

All the other subjects at the university are based on western European origin and thinking from this time over the last 600 years or so...

No, actually, Yale University is thinking of enlarging the western European art origin, to the world art origin.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:14 am

Maybe all the other subjects are too white and western European and male too..

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maybe all the other subjects are too white and western European and male too..

The Yale administration hasn't put forward those reasons, so that's all on you. I understand your wanting preference for whites (European history only), as that seems to be unabashedly British (in America, we know the consequences of white preference). You want people of color to keep their distance.

But the plain fact is that we live in an age where equality takes precedence. White supremacy only began when explorations on the African and South American continents introduced us to people, whom we weren't sure were not akin to the beasts and not ourselves. We could put elephants to work as beasts of burden, why not these dark, man-like creatures? Over the centuries there are those who maintained that people of color were part of the lower animal kingdom. As medical science proved that they are indeed us, only with dark skin, it became a difficult position to take.

We now minimize our racism down to intelligence, and cleanliness, and allege people of color might be human, but they are unclean and unintelligent. Even that has proved not to be true, but how would we know when we refuse to visit their homes, and refuse to invite them into our schools.

The absence of a reason to discriminate has led to an emphasis on equality as the only correct path. Now, bringing all this down to Yale University, department of art, they have a core course that once reflected our preference for our (white) selves. They decided to change that and eliminate the course on European art. You, tommy, are one of the hangers-on who want to continue to believe in white, or European supremacy.

You can't have it...you are now in the minority. Suck it up, brother. Learn how to lose gracefully.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:46 pm

So where did all the science and technology and philosophy and literature and music come from...?

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

So where did all the science and technology and philosophy and literature and music come from...?

Are you arguing the superiority of your culture. That's quite white of you.

With that logic, you might as well argue that we should study only Greek or Sumerian art...forget that fussy Italian and Dutch stuff. After all, that's where it all originally came from. Or, if all we are trying to do in our art classes is find the source of technology, hell why bother with anything before the industrial revolution.

But you mention also, medicine, philosophy and literature and music. Are you claiming superiority for European culture in those areas too. By what measure? That's just plain old ethnocentrism.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:50 pm

I'm just saying that all the courses at Yale are based on western European thinking and innovation...

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm just saying that all the courses at Yale are based on western European thinking and innovation...

Hardly. Yale University has a full and diverse curricula in all subjects. As one Yale faculty member says: "Equity, diversity, and inclusiveness are more a part of our lives than ever before. We see how the resulting balance of views and experience informs us and enriches us." https://medicine.yale.edu/

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:36 pm

That is just guff...

Maybe you could list the courses, and tell us which ones aren't based on western European thinking and innovation...?

by gelico Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Renaissance art
Renaissance art is the painting, sculpture and decorative arts of the period of European history, emerging as a distinct style in Italy in about 1400, in parallel with developments which occurred in philosophy, literature, music, science and technology.

It is all of western European origin/thinking.

philosophy is of western European origin/thinking

LOL

Confucius was just a tad before the renaissance as were many other chinese philosophers

Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:12 pm

The vast majority of course content would be of western European thinking and innovation... Which is why there is also a focus on western European art...

And majority of this would be renaissance onwards.

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The vast majority of course content would be of western European thinking and innovation... Which is why there is also a focus on western European art...

And majority of this would be renaissance onwards.

Okay, so? Should students be forced to take a Eurocentric course? Would you agree with students being forced to take a course that was focused on African culture?

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