Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy

In the wake of Netanyahu's move to incorporate the Golan Heights into the sovereignty of Israel, one must question whether Israel is a Jewish state, or a democracy?

What are they going to do with the many Palestinians who live there? I cannot imagine that they are going to permit the pollution of their Jewishness by allowing Muslims to vote.

Bears watching.

Original Quill wrote:In the wake of Netanyahu's move to incorporate the Golan Heights into the sovereignty of Israel, one must question whether Israel is a Jewish state, or a democracy?

What are they going to do with the many Palestinians who live there?  I cannot imagine that they are going to permit the pollution of their Jewishness by allowing Muslims to vote.

Bears watching.

Palestinians?

lol

Did you mean Syrians?

I imagine not much will change, since Israel has been in control since 1967 of the Golan Heights.

How many other land changes do you want to look at in the 20th century?

East Prussia?
Poland?
Sudetenland?
Romania?
Crimea?
Tibet?
Cyprus?


I could go on the list is endless

The question is: will Israel be Jewish state, or will it become a democracy?

Bears watching.

Original Quill wrote:The question is: will Israel be Jewish state, or will it become a democracy?

Bears watching.

Its the only democracy in the Middle East.

In fact its elections are a close run thing at the moment

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-47874948

Original Quill wrote:The question is: will Israel be Jewish state, or will it become a democracy?

Bears watching.

It's a Jewish democracy and should remain so

smelly-bandit wrote:

Original Quill wrote:The question is: will Israel be Jewish state, or will it become a democracy?

Bears watching.

It's a Jewish democracy and should remain so

What does that mean?  Is it limited to Jewish people, in which case such limitation means it is not a democracy as non-Jews cannot participate.  Or, is it a full democracy, in which case what do you mean by the qualifier, Jewish democracy?

To say it is both is self-contradictory.

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It's a Jewish democracy and should remain so

What does that mean?  Is it limited to Jewish people, in which case such limitation means it is not a democracy as non-Jews cannot participate.  Or, is it a full democracy, in which case what do you mean by the qualifier, Jewish democracy?

To say it is both is self-contradictory.

Really, as is France not a democracy?

French is the language spoken and decreed as such in the nation state law, is it not?

It is a French Democracy. As there is a German democracy.

It does not mean non-Germans cannot paraticipate in Germany. The same with France

I suggest you look at other countries that are democratic and how they state who they are. Which is nearly every democracy in the world

Phil wrote:Really, as is France not a democracy?

French is the language spoken and decreed as such in the nation state law, is it not?

It is a French Democracy. As there is a German democracy.

It does not mean non-Germans cannot paraticipate in Germany. The same with France

I suggest you look at other countries that are democratic and how they state who they are. Which is nearly every democracy in the world

You are avoiding the point.  The language spoken by any person is not limited by nation, either in France or Germany.  It is not limited, nor even associated with democracy.  So that is irrelevant.

You cannot escape the logic of the question: is Israel restricted to the Jewish, or is it democratic and open to all?

The question is binary, and permits only one answer or the other.

Original Quill wrote:

Phil wrote:Really, as is France not a democracy?

French is the language spoken and decreed as such in the nation state law, is it not?

It is a French Democracy. As there is a German democracy.

It does not mean non-Germans cannot paraticipate in Germany. The same with France

I suggest you look at other countries that are democratic and how they state who they are. Which is nearly every democracy in the world

You are avoiding the point.  The language spoken by any person is not limited by nation, either in France or Germany.  It is not limited, nor even associated with democracy.  So that is irrelevant.

You cannot escape the logic of the question: is Israel restricted to the Jewish, or is it democratic and open to all?

The question is binary, and permits only one answer or the other.

The question was irrelevant and irrational, as you can have both

Again, as France is both a democracy and a French state

There is no logic to your question

Its simple a lefty, showing his distain for Jews again, who does not apply his illogical views to other nations

If you did, you would see the duality

phildidge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You are avoiding the point. The language spoken by any person is not limited by nation, either in France or Germany. It is not limited, nor even associated with democracy. So that is irrelevant.

You cannot escape the logic of the question: is Israel restricted to the Jewish, or is it democratic and open to all?

The question is binary, and permits only one answer or the other.

The question was irrelevant and irrational, as you can have both

Again, as France is both a democracy and a French state

There is no logic to your question

Its simple a lefty, showing his distain for Jews again, who does not apply his illogical views to other nations

If you did, you would see the duality

You've really lost the plot here, phil. I had proposed a simple binary: Israel is either a democracy or a Jewish state, but cannot be both. You respond with a non-binary hypothetical confusing language with citizenship. It's non-binary because you can be in France and speak another language. So your logic has gone astray.

You respond by throwing in: “irrelevant and irrational”, “no logic”, “ I’m a lefty”, “disdain for Jews”…and something by fiat, that ‘duality’ is somehow legitimate for Israel. It defies logic. How does any of that make a self-contradictory Israel somehow logical?

Well...I've many times noted your inability to actuate logic, so that I need not linger on that.

But I continue to ask: how can Israel be restricted to Jews, and yet call itself an open democracy? It's like a country club that says its open and anyone can come in...but, oh, um, you cannot be Islamic. That's not free and open.

Original Quill wrote:

phildidge wrote:

The question was irrelevant and irrational, as you can have both

Again, as France is both a democracy and a French state

There is no logic to your question

Its simple a lefty, showing his distain for Jews  again, who does not apply his illogical views to other nations

If you did, you would see the duality

You've really lost the plot here, phil.  I had proposed a simple binary: Israel is either a democracy or a Jewish state, but cannot be both.  You respond with a non-binary hypothetical confusing language with citizenship.  It's non-binary because you can be in France and speak another language.  So your logic has gone astray.

You respond by throwing in: “irrelevant and irrational”, “no logic”, “ I’m a lefty”, “disdain for Jews”…and something by fiat, that ‘duality’ is somehow legitimate for Israel.  It defies logic.  How does any of that make a self-contradictory Israel somehow logical?

Well...I've many times noted your inability to actuate logic, so that I need not linger on that.

But I continue to ask: how can Israel be restricted to Jews, and yet call itself an open democracy?  It's like a country club that says its open and anyone can come in...but, oh, um, you cannot be Islamic.  That's not free and open.

What you are saying is ridiculous and you have not even presented anything for your view why they cannot be both, when many nations identify, by their identity

So Israel is both a Jewish state and a democracy

Just as France is a French state and a democracy

lol, you can be in Israel and speak another language, In fact sign posts are normally in 3 languages

Hebrew, Arabic and English

In fact many languages are spoken in Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel

My logic is spot on, as you are only applying this warped view on israel. In fact 20% of the population is Arabic

Where it is one of the most religiously free countries in the world. Nobody is restricted from worshipping their faiths. as its enshrined in law. Plus many different ethnic groups live in Israel, including Bosnians, Iraqi's, Kosovan, Ethiopian, etc

So what planet are you actually on, with the views you are expressing?

Just because israel has stated it is a Jewish state. This does not change the laws around religious freedom and how religious and ethnic groups are protected through the law. Hence its not restricted to Jews only

However the West bank under Fatah and Gaza under Hamas, are places that does not allow any Jews.

So as per usual you are making bullshit up

You seem to be making a habbit of this lately

So lets recap and again use France as an example, of which many western democracies are the same.

Both France and Israel have Democracy

They both identity around a nationality, language, Flag, etc.

So maybe you can elaborate on your really childish and pointless view here, which makes no sense?

So far, you think no western nation can be both democracy and their idenity. Even though many are.

As seen, Israel can easily be both a jewish state and a Democracy

Just as Germany is a German state and is a democracy

Just as Holland is a Dutch state and a democracy

Just as Spain is a Spanish state and a democracy

Just as Poland is a Polish state and a democracy

etc

etc

etc

phil wrote:So Israel is both a Jewish state and a democracy

Just as France is a French state and a democracy

France is a location, Israel is a constitutionally organized government.

France's government permits others to participate, Israel does not.

You are mixing apples and oranges. France has no inconsistency, Israel does.

phil wrote:Just because israel has stated it is a Jewish state. This does not change the laws around religious freedom and how religious and ethnic groups are protected through the law. Hence its not restricted to Jews only

Are you saying that 'Jewish state' is a hollow term...that it has no content or meaning?

You are not comfortable with these ideas, are you?  You keep hammering on the same dead horses.  If you don't come up with new arguments or fresh ideas, I'll assume that you yield.

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It's a Jewish democracy and should remain so

What does that mean?  Is it limited to Jewish people, in which case such limitation means it is not a democracy as non-Jews cannot participate.  Or, is it a full democracy, in which case what do you mean by the qualifier, Jewish democracy?

To say it is both is self-contradictory.

It's a democracy for Jews

What's so hard to understand, why would the Jews allow their enemies to dictate the course of their own country??

You can't be the US president if you aren't born in America (unless your name is Obama) that doesn't mean America isn't a democracy.

smelly-bandit wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

What does that mean?  Is it limited to Jewish people, in which case such limitation means it is not a democracy as non-Jews cannot participate.  Or, is it a full democracy, in which case what do you mean by the qualifier, Jewish democracy?

To say it is both is self-contradictory.

It's a democracy for Jews

What's so hard to understand, why would the Jews allow their enemies to dictate the course of their own country??

Now, this is the real answer...it follows the logic.  It says, Israel is a closed democracy, limited only to Jews...in other words, a theocracy.   Everyone else is "the enemy".

Russ wrote:You can't be the US president if you aren't born in America (unless your name is Obama) that doesn't mean America isn't a democracy.

The US president is a person, not a state.  I do agree, that the US Constitution harbors discrimination.  Look at the accommodations it makes to the slave states...the 4/5's rule, etc.  But, under Article VI, it guarantees a democratic form of government.

Israel limits itself to only Jews, making it a theocracy, not a democracy.

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:So Israel is both a Jewish state and a democracy

Just as France is a French state and a democracy

France is a location, Israel is a constitutionally organized government.

France's government permits others to participate, Israel does not.

You are mixing apples and oranges.  France has no inconsistency, Israel does.

Bullshit alert

You are just throwing in crap now

When you hav e decided not being a complete idiot, let me know

Everything you have claimed is false

You avoided the points I see and again cannot counter the points made

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:Just because israel has stated it is a Jewish state. This does not change the laws around religious freedom and how religious and ethnic groups are protected through the law. Hence its not restricted to Jews only

Are you saying that 'Jewish state' is a hollow term...that it has no content or meaning?

You are not comfortable with these ideas, are you?  You keep hammering on the same dead horses.  If you don't come up with new arguments or fresh ideas, I'll assume that you yield.

A nationality, has meaning for many people

I have already assumed that you failed the moment you created an illogical thread
I see you avoided all my points

Thanks

That is you out of the equation

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It's a democracy for Jews

What's so hard to understand, why would the Jews allow their enemies to dictate the course of their own country??

Now, this is the real answer...it follows the logic.  It says, Israel is a closed democracy, limited only to Jews...in other words, a theocracy.   Everyone else is "the enemy".

Russ wrote:You can't be the US president if you aren't born in America (unless your name is Obama) that doesn't mean America isn't a democracy.

The US president is a person, not a state.  I do agree, that the US Constitution harbors discrimination.  Look at the accommodations it makes to the slave states...the 4/5's rule, etc.  But, under Article VI, it guarantees a democratic form of government.

Israel limits itself to only Jews, making it a theocracy, not a democracy.

Never laughed so much at such ignorance

Show me the laws that superscede the laws of religious freedom and equality in Israel for non-Jews?

The only thing I am seeing is sheer stupidity on your part

So best you put up some evidence to back your claim its a Theocracy?

Come on Qrump

phildidge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You've really lost the plot here, phil.  I had proposed a simple binary: Israel is either a democracy or a Jewish state, but cannot be both.  You respond with a non-binary hypothetical confusing language with citizenship.  It's non-binary because you can be in France and speak another language.  So your logic has gone astray.

You respond by throwing in: “irrelevant and irrational”, “no logic”, “ I’m a lefty”, “disdain for Jews”…and something by fiat, that ‘duality’ is somehow legitimate for Israel.  It defies logic.  How does any of that make a self-contradictory Israel somehow logical?

Well...I've many times noted your inability to actuate logic, so that I need not linger on that.

But I continue to ask: how can Israel be restricted to Jews, and yet call itself an open democracy?  It's like a country club that says its open and anyone can come in...but, oh, um, you cannot be Islamic.  That's not free and open.

What you are saying is ridiculous and you have not even presented anything for your view why they cannot be both, when many nations identify, by their identity

So Israel is both a Jewish state and a democracy

Just as France is a French state and a democracy

lol, you can be in Israel and speak another language, In fact sign posts are normally in 3 languages

Hebrew, Arabic and English

In fact many languages are spoken in Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel

My logic is spot on, as you are only applying this warped view on israel. In fact 20% of the population is Arabic

Where it is one of the most religiously free countries in the world. Nobody is restricted from worshipping their faiths. as its enshrined in law. Plus many different ethnic groups live in Israel, including Bosnians, Iraqi's, Kosovan, Ethiopian, etc

So what planet are you actually on, with the views you are expressing?

Just because israel has stated it is a Jewish state. This does not change the laws around religious freedom and how religious and ethnic groups are protected through the law. Hence its not restricted to Jews only

However the West bank under Fatah and Gaza under Hamas, are places that does not allow any Jews.

So as per usual you are making bullshit up

You seem to be making a habbit of this lately

So lets recap and again use France as an example, of which many western democracies are the same.

Both France and Israel have Democracy

They both identity around a nationality, language, Flag, etc.

So maybe you can elaborate on your really childish and pointless view here, which makes no sense?

So far, you think no western nation can be both democracy and their idenity. Even though many are.

As seen, Israel can easily be both a jewish state and a Democracy

Just as Germany is a German state and is a democracy

Just as Holland is a Dutch state and a democracy

Just as Spain is a Spanish state and a democracy

Just as Poland is a Polish state and a democracy

etc

etc

etc

Posted again to be answered

Qrump has one last chance, otherwise this debate is redundent

I want to see evidence and not bullshit, that he has so far claimed

phil wrote:Show me the laws that superscede the laws of religious freedom and equality in Israel for non-Jews?

The issue isn't about religious freedom, but political definition as determined by laws. You aren't adept at utilizing ideas, so typically all you can do is throw shit at a wall to see what sticks.

You've so lost the plot of this thread (if you ever had it) that I'm about to declare myself the winner, and leave you to your inevitable temper tantrum. In fact, Russ has hit the nail on the logic of the question, but he hasn't yet reached the inevitable conclusion that Israel is a theocracy.

So no evidence to back up this crack pot claims made by Qrump

So yet another thread where Qrump just invents things and tells porkies pies

Israel is not exclusivelly for jews and no law back such a notion

This is simple Qrump on a wind up and its pointless entertaining such stupidity any further

So what a pointless thread

phildidge wrote:So no evidence to back up this crack pot claims made by Qrump

So yet another thread where Qrump just invents things and tells porkies pies

Israel is not exclusivelly for jews and no law back such a notion

This is simple Qrump on a wind up and its pointless entertaining such stupidity any further

So what a pointless thread

You can stop now, dickey.  I've already won.  You've not raised a single relevant point with your hokey about languages.  I've left you on the floor, spitting and sputtering.


Russ comes closest to the right answer.  He recognizes the contradiction between claiming a free and open state, yet saying it is closed to all but Jews.  Russ, however, says that is all right with him, cause he is in favor of discrimination against non-whites anyway.  So, the golden carrot goes to him for getting a lot further on that than you...simply not bothered by the truth.

Enter now the temper tantrum.  (What else is new?)  I'll be onto the next thread...someone tell me if he abandons the word 'twat'.  

Myth #1: “[Israel is] a country where Jews enjoy rights that others don’t have.”

Fact: While Israel struggles with the same tensions as any ethnically diverse democracy, all citizens have equal rights under law.

***

Myth #2: “A state in which Judaism is the only national expression permissible by law will, by definition, reject any minority member who wishes to be part of it…”

Fact: It is unclear to which “definition” Kashua is referring, but many countries have an official religion, ethnicity, or people-hood without rejecting minorities: such as Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, Japan and many more.

***

Myth #3: “The Nationality Law prevents the possibility of multiculturalism in Israel and rejects any collective history or memory other than the Zionist one.”

Fact: Israel expresses multiculturalism and varieties of collective histories in its literature, museums, social/environmental projects and more. This is unchanged by the passage of the Nation State Law.

***

Myth #4: “…the 20 percent of the population who are Arabs and who live in crowded conditions, under continuous threat of having their land appropriated.”

Fact: This is simply untrue.

Kashua is referring specially to Arab-Israeli citizens: not Palestinians who live in disputed territories such as the West Bank and Gaza.

In some communities, Arab residents complain about inequality in municipal services, permitting and the like. However, most Arab-Israeli citizens live in well established, spacious, modern cities: such as Haifa, well restored ancient ones such as Acre, or firmly established towns, such as Abu Gosh.

Myth #5: “By revoking Arabic’s status as an official state language, the law delivers yet another blow…”

Fact: Arabic’s status is entirely unchanged: it always had a special status, but was never an official national language, of Israel.

A common confusion results from a 1948 Israeli law (based on a 1922 British law) that requires the use of Arabic and Hebrew on government documents, signs and the like, but does not designate either as an official national language.

The 1948 law is still in effect, and the relevant section of the Nation State Law specifically provides that, “This clause does not harm the status given to the Arabic language before this law came into effect.”

***

Sayed Kashua engages in numerous other distortions of fact: confusing or conflating unrelated topics, misstating international law and more.  The late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts” and that is true of the New York Times opinion section too.

https://honestreporting.com/new-york-times-myths-about-israel-as-a-jewish-state/

And Qrump as well

Makes you laugh that now Quill is so desperate he seeks support from smelly for his warped views

Hence why its best that I post up facts that easily refute Qrump

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It's a democracy for Jews

What's so hard to understand, why would the Jews allow their enemies to dictate the course of their own country??

Now, this is the real answer...it follows the logic.  It says, Israel is a closed democracy, limited only to Jews...in other words, a theocracy.   Everyone else is "the enemy".

Russ wrote:You can't be the US president if you aren't born in America (unless your name is Obama) that doesn't mean America isn't a democracy.

The US president is a person, not a state.  I do agree, that the US Constitution harbors discrimination.  Look at the accommodations it makes to the slave states...the 4/5's rule, etc.  But, under Article VI, it guarantees a democratic form of government.

Israel limits itself to only Jews, making it a theocracy, not a democracy.

Shit

A real answer??? Didnt mean to give you one of those, so few pearls, so many swine, I usually reserve my real answers for the most dire of circumstances.

But you are wrong, Israel is not a theocracy, Judaism is the religion, jew is one who subscribes to Judaism or one who is ethnically "Jewish" not every jew is religious.

Also theocractic states have laws that are based on religious scriptures, Israel doesn't do that. If it did then in theory homosexuality would be banned, its not, israel has a thriving LGBT community and even have pride parades.

Theocracies don't have heads of state voted on by the citizens but rather coronations that happen behind closed doors at the upper echelons of religious power.

The eu would be auch better example of how a theocracy in terms of changing leadership works than Israel

smelly-bandit wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

What does that mean?  Is it limited to Jewish people, in which case such limitation means it is not a democracy as non-Jews cannot participate.  Or, is it a full democracy, in which case what do you mean by the qualifier, Jewish democracy?

To say it is both is self-contradictory.

It's a democracy for Jews

What's so hard to understand, why would the Jews allow their enemies to dictate the course of their own country??

You can't be the US president if you aren't born in America (unless your name is Obama) that doesn't mean America isn't a democracy.

Smelly' is yet another of those Trumpster fantasists pushing their tired old claim that Hawaii isn't part of the USA; (where, under the Smelly Trumpster view of the universe, Hawaii is apparently a Muslim enclave, and supposedly part of Nigeria..).

What a twat..

Russ wrote:But you are wrong, Israel is not a theocracy, Judaism is the religion, jew is one who subscribes to Judaism or one who is ethnically "Jewish" not every jew is religious.

But every Jew has to be Jewish, yes?  So, is Israel limiting citizenship to Jews?  Religious or not, with such a limitation it has a law that enforces the exclusivity.

By definition, that makes it a theocracy.

Original Quill wrote:

Russ wrote:But you are wrong, Israel is not a theocracy, Judaism is the religion, jew is one who subscribes to Judaism or one who is ethnically "Jewish" not every jew is religious.

But every Jew has to be Jewish, yes?  So, is Israel limiting citizenship to Jews?  Religious or not, with such a limitation it has a law that enforces the exclusivity.

It is exclusive, so what???

Just like every single country in the world is exclusive to some degree or other

I can't vote in the US election, you can't vote in UK elections. In the eu referendum eu citizens living in the UK were in theory supposed to be denied a vote.

That mean that people like myself who have lived in the UK for about 2 decades give or take, and spent the majority of that in the British forces are denied a say in the most important decision this country has taken, a decision that will impact me and any future offspring I might have.

So in your story I am to the UK what the non jew is to Israel.

But you don't see me getting all salty about it do you??

That's because I'm an adult, you should try it sometime

And no, a theocracy is a state where the laws are based on religious doctrine,and the government are the priests of the religious institution

That is not Israel

smelly-bandit wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

But every Jew has to be Jewish, yes?  So, is Israel limiting citizenship to Jews?  Religious or not, with such a limitation it has a law that enforces the exclusivity.

It is exclusive, so what???

So, its a theocracy, not a democracy.

Russ wrote:Just like every single country in the world is exclusive to some degree or other

And if its religion, its a theocracy.

Ress wrote:I can't vote in the US election, you can't vote in UK elections. In the eu referendum eu citizens living in the UK were in theory supposed to be denied a vote.

But not solely because of religion.  If it's religion, its a theocracy.

Russ wrote:That mean that people like myself who have lived in the UK for about 2 decades give or take, and spent the majority of that in the British forces are denied a say in the most important decision this country has taken, a decision that will impact me and any future offspring I might have.

Yep, that's what it means to be cast out.

Russ wrote:So in your story I am to the UK what the non jew is to Israel.

But you don't see me getting all salty about it do you??

That's because I'm an adult, you should try it sometime

No, it's because you're willing to put up with it.  If anything, you're an Uncle Tom.  It still doesn't make Israel a democracy.  It's a theocracy.

Russ wrote:And no, a theocracy is a state where the laws are based on religious doctrine,and the government are the priests of the religious institution

All you needs is a sign saying, "Non-Jews need not participate".  Your exclusion in the UK is because of citizenship.  In Israel, it's because of religion.  Israel is a theocracy.

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It is exclusive, so what???

So, its a theocracy, not a democracy.

Phildidge wrote:Really? So to Quill, a democray is a Theocracy

And if its religion, its a theocracy.

Phildidge wrote:So according to Qrump. The Uk is a Theocracy. When its very foundation has a Queen as the head of the state, as its religious leader

Come again?

This is why you are embaressing yourself and again. You never apply your dumb reasoning to any other country. Only the one that is a Jewish state

Which begs the question. Why do you make such absaurd views on Israel, which you never apply to any other nation?

Antimseitism much?

But not solely because of religion.  If it's religion, its a theocracy.

Phildidge wrote:Well so based on your view on religion and the fact on your money banknotes, it states "in god we trust". You must be of the view, that the US is under a theocracy then?

Yep, that's what it means to be cast out.

Phildidge wrote:What this means, is that, you are looking very silly

No, it's because you're willing to put up with it.  If anything, you're an Uncle Tom.  It still doesn't make Israel a democracy.  It's a theocracy.

Phildidge wrote:An uncle Tom?

Oh my. So this is when you understand what antisemitism is about

You have someone target the Jewish state with falsehoods, they never apply to any other democratic nation. They invent lies and invoke falsehoods, to make their hateful views fit

Hitler eat your heart out

This is not genuine criticism

This is made up bullshit, to allow hate of Israel

All you needs is a sign saying, "Non-Jews need not participate".  Your exclusion in the UK is because of citizenship.  In Israel, it's because of religion.  Israel is a theocracy.

The reality is, in Israel, all can participate

In the West bank and Gaza under palestinian control

No jews are allowed and yet, you never make a single view upon this Quill?

As in those areas, they are under a Theocracy called Hamas and fatah

Opps

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

It is exclusive, so what???

So, its a theocracy, not a democracy.

Russ wrote:Just like every single country in the world is exclusive to some degree or other

And if its religion, its a theocracy.

Ress wrote:I can't vote in the US election, you can't vote in UK elections. In the eu referendum eu citizens living in the UK were in theory supposed to be denied a vote.

But not solely because of religion.  If it's religion, its a theocracy.

Russ wrote:That mean that people like myself who have lived in the UK for about 2 decades give or take, and spent the majority of that in the British forces are denied a say in the most important decision this country has taken, a decision that will impact me and any future offspring I might have.

Yep, that's what it means to be cast out.

Russ wrote:So in your story I am to the UK what the non jew is to Israel.

But you don't see me getting all salty about it do you??

That's because I'm an adult, you should try it sometime

No, it's because you're willing to put up with it.  If anything, you're an Uncle Tom.  It still doesn't make Israel a democracy.  It's a theocracy.

Russ wrote:And no, a theocracy is a state where the laws are based on religious doctrine,and the government are the priests of the religious institution

All you needs is a sign saying, "Non-Jews need not participate".  Your exclusion in the UK is because of citizenship.  In Israel, it's because of religion.  Israel is a theocracy.

It's not a theocracy but never let little things like the truth stand in the way of your narrative.

If You don't understand what the term "theocracy" actually means but still insist on using it incorrectly then I can't really help you out here.

You stamping your feet screaming that israel is a theocracy is not conducive to conversation, and I'm bored of it now.

If you want to call an apple a pear, I can't make you call it an apple.

Russ wrote:It is a theocracy but never let little things like the truth stand in the way of your narrative.

Don't let reason interfere with your fun, Russ.

Russ wrote:You stamping your feet screaming that israel is a theocracy is not conducive to conversation, and I'm bored of it now.

No, I'm sitting comfortably playing on the computer. I was bored with you back when i prevailed in this debate. A nation cannot be an open democracy and a religious theocracy at the same time...your argument by fiat notwithstanding.

I visited, because I wanted see how you were handling the loss.

I just want to know Quill, why you do not apply your same arguments to your own nation

I guess, to you. The US, has always been a thoecracy?

Quill's question is pretty clear-cut -- will Israel be the type of country where there's a religious test for citizenship, or not?

If it's not, then Muslims and everyone else who isn't Jewish should have all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship -- first-class citizenship, not second-class.

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Quill's question is pretty clear-cut -- will Israel be the type of country where there's a religious test for citizenship, or not?

If it's not, then Muslims and everyone else who isn't Jewish should have all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship -- first-class citizenship, not second-class

One idiot born every minute and i would like to asdk, how often do you apply this question to any other nation Benazi?

Or is it just to the Jews?

I really cannot stand the fact that the left, has become as abhorant and hateful towards Jews as Hitler was

Israel  has the most liberal laws on religious freedom and you have the gall to question this based on the idiocy of Quill, without checking any facts?

So, lets put this to the test for the dummy texan

How many Muslims and Arabs live in Israel?

20%

How many Jews live in Gaza or the west bank under Fatah?

Zero

What religious test is this, you speak of?

So lets play your antisemitic game shall we?

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Quill's question is pretty clear-cut -- will Israel be the type of country where there's a religious test for citizenship, or not?

If it's not, then Muslims and everyone else who isn't Jewish should have all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship -- first-class citizenship, not second-class.

So what is this clear cut question Ben?

Or is the reality, you are trying to get out of jail an antisemitic wanker with his jew hatred?

If you had a an once of intelligence. You would know that everyone in Israel has rights and yet the fuckwit lefty you are. Clueless as you are

Wants to knwo if people have the same rights?

I am sorry, but do you have the same rights as someone British?

Yet in Israel, people have the same rights as citisens, as they do anywhere else

Original Quill wrote:

Russ wrote:It is a theocracy but never let little things like the truth stand in the way of your narrative.

Don't let reason interfere with your fun, Russ.

Russ wrote:You stamping your feet screaming that israel is a theocracy is not conducive to conversation, and I'm bored of it now.

No, I'm sitting comfortably playing on the computer.  I was bored with you back when i prevailed in this debate.  A nation cannot be an open democracy and a religious theocracy at the same time...your argument by fiat notwithstanding.

I visited, because I wanted see how you were handling the loss.

no country is an open democracy

i cannot vote in US elections

some people cannot vote in israeli elections

i dont really see why you have such an issue with an independant state dictating who can and cannot vote in their elections.

your obsession with this is odd, and anyway i dont actually care why you have such a hard on for this.

as far as im concerned israel can do no wrong, they are above reproach in all things and i am happy to see bibi back in the driving seat, with him in charge israel will remain a beacon of humanity in a part of the world where non exists.

stamp your feet till youre blue in the face old chap, no one is listening.

To prove my point Eddie

In 1920 the Jews were offered the Mandate for palestine

In 1922, 78% was given to the Arabs in the form of the nation of Jordan

The rest of rthe Arabs were still not happy. So much so. Those living in Jorfan moved to israel. Due to the fact that the Jews brought about ecoomic prosperity

Ben asks the most dumbest question and only applies this to Jews. Whilst his own nation. Places trust in "god" on its bank note

This is why I do not give leftist regressives  the time of day

They are fucking ignorant

They never aplly they ignorance to anything else

They simple want to argue and rationalize to be able to hate jews

Except, the word jew has been swapped for zionist

Okay I don’t completely understand the thread, I know little of the topic and I haven’t the time nor the inclination to research it enough to take a side.

I don’t like extreme lefties or righties though...not sure what that means in relation to this topic though.

phildidge wrote:

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Quill's question is pretty clear-cut -- will Israel be the type of country where there's a religious test for citizenship, or not?

If it's not, then Muslims and everyone else who isn't Jewish should have all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship -- first-class citizenship, not second-class.

So what is this clear cut question Ben?

Or is the reality, you are trying to get out of jail an antisemitic wanker with his jew hatred?

If you had a an once of intelligence. You would know that everyone in Israel has rights and yet the fuckwit lefty you are. Clueless as you are

Wants to knwo if people have the same rights?

I am sorry, but do you have the same rights as someone British?

Yet in Israel, people have the same rights as citisens, as they do anywhere else

I don't really think there are too many more ways to simplify this. In the near future, may we see Israelis who aren't Jewish have their rights curtailed?

It's an interesting question and one that even if it offends someone, people have the right to ask.

Sorry you see it as bigoted -- I'd just ask how it treats all Jewish people as having the same negative characteristics.

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

phildidge wrote:


So what is this clear cut question Ben?

Or is the reality, you are trying to get out of jail an antisemitic wanker with his jew hatred?

If you had a an once of intelligence. You would know that everyone in Israel has rights and yet the fuckwit lefty you are. Clueless as you are

Wants to knwo if people have the same rights?

I am sorry, but do you have the same rights as someone British?

Yet in Israel, people have the same rights as citisens, as they do anywhere else

I don't really think there are too many more ways to simplify this. In the near future, may we see Israelis who aren't Jewish have their rights curtailed?

It's an interesting question and one that even if it offends someone, people have the right to ask.

Sorry you see it as bigoted -- I'd just ask how it treats all Jewish people as having the same negative characteristics.

Sorry, but I see you as a left leaning idiot

What people inside israel are denied rights as non Jews?

The way I see this, is you need to get your head out of Cnn and actually read more news outlets

Or more to the point actually go to Israel like I have

Frankly, you have not a clue what you are talking about

Lets sum this up


20% of the Israeli population is Arabic

No Jews live under Fatah or Hamas in Gaza or the west bank

You see non-Jews in Israel, have the same rights as Jews

Jews do not have a right to even enter Judea, through threat of theie lives

Go figure

phil wrote:Sorry, but I see you as a left leaning idiot

And I see you as a right wing cunus.

phil wrote:What people inside israel are denied rights as non Jews?

So, you're saying that Israel is not a Jewish State?

Then they ought to drop the name. It's really false advertising.

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:Sorry, but I see you as a left leaning idiot

And I see you as a right wing cunus.

phil wrote:What people inside israel are denied rights as non Jews?

So, you're saying that Israel is not a Jewish State?

Then they ought to drop the name.  It's really false advertising.

Where did I say that?

Cathy Newman?

Again, what you have failed to do is show that Israel is unique compared to otyher western democracies based on identity

In fact, you just invented a load of crap.

Israel is a Jewish nation and a democracy, but is not inclusive towards just Jews

That is a no brainer

phil wrote:What people inside israel are denied rights as non Jews?

Where did I say that?

Cathy Newman?

Again, what you have failed to do is show that Israel is unique compared to otyher western democracies based on identity

In fact, you just invented a load of crap.

Israel is a Jewish nation and a democracy, but is not inclusive towards just Jews

That is a no brainer

You're a collector of ideas, not an actuator of them.  So, depending on your ability to understand logic, you may or may not understand.

The premise of the idea is that a thing cannot both be, and not be at the same time.  In other words, up cannot be down, and forward cannot be backward.  Israel cannot be an exclusively Jewish state, and not be at the same time.  They are mutually incompatible ideas.  When you have mutually incompatible ideas, a choice is necessary.

So, is Israel an open democracy, open to all; or is Israel a Jewish state, giving privileged status to Jews?  As Israel confiscates more and more territory of other peoples, it takes in those other people.  Unless they are coincidentally Jewish, they are outliers.

The question -- or 'choice' as I have characterized it -- is: does Israel embrace those outliers as fully enfranchised citizens, in which case Israel is not a Jewish state; or does  Israel make them second-class participants, as suggested by the labeling of Israel as a Jewish state?  Up cannot be down, and forward cannot be backward...so the choice must be made.

You are avoiding that choice by saying that Israel is both.  But, a higher authority than you -- ie, reason -- says they cannot both (this is the point where you must actuate ideas, and you get lost).  So rational posters will recognize the dilemma even if you cannot.

Is Israel an open democracy, or a Jewish state?

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:What people inside israel are denied rights as non Jews?

Where did I say that?

Cathy Newman?

Again, what you have failed to do is show that Israel is unique compared to otyher western democracies based on identity

In fact, you just invented a load of crap.

Israel is a Jewish nation and a democracy, but is not inclusive towards just Jews

That is a no brainer

You're a collector of ideas, not an actuator of them.  So, depending on your ability to understand logic, you may or may not understand.

phil wrote: Actually, Ihave a masters in history and know the history of Israel very well. Hence its based on facts and not the bullshit, you keep promoting

The premise of the idea is that a thing cannot both be, and not be at the same time.  In other words, up cannot be down, and forward cannot be backward.  Israel cannot be an exclusively Jewish state, and not be at the same time.  They are mutually incompatible ideas.  When you have mutually incompatible ideas, a choice is necessary.

phil wrote: So you keep saying and yet you never yet again apply this reasoning to your own country

Like I say, even on your own currency, it has "in god we trust"

Does that make the US a Theocracy?

So, is Israel an open democracy, open to all; or is Israel a Jewish state, giving privileged status to Jews?  As Israel confiscates more and more territory of other peoples, it takes in those other people.  Unless they are coincidentally Jewish, they are outliers.

phil wrote:Its both and if you had taken the time to look at its laws on people, its accepting off many ethnic groups. Being the fact that not only Jews, can become Governement ministers, doctors, judges etc

The question -- or 'choice' as I have characterized it -- is: does Israel embrace those outliers as fully enfranchised citizens, in which case Israel is not a Jewish state; or does  Israel make them second-class participants, as suggested by the labeling of Israel as a Jewish state?  Up cannot be down, and forward cannot be backward...so the choice must be made.

phil wrote: Israel is the only Jewish state, formed from the original state of Judea. Where the Jews had their genesis
We know that Israel is a Democracy, that is without questio. Hence your wahtaboutsim on it defining itself as a jewish state. Does not detract from the fact it is both a democracy and a Jewish state

You are avoiding that choice by saying that Israel is both.  But, a higher authority than you -- ie, reason -- says they cannot both (this is the point where you must actuate ideas, and you get lost).  So rational posters will recognize the dilemma even if you cannot.

Is Israel an open democracy, or a Jewish state?

lol, you avoided every single point I made so here they are again

Israel  has the most liberal laws on religious freedom and you have the gall to question this based on the idiocy of Quill, without checking any facts?

So, lets put this to the test for the dummy texan

How many Muslims and Arabs live in Israel?

20%

How many Jews live in Gaza or the west bank under Fatah?

Zero

What religious test is this, you speak of?

So lets play your antisemitic game shall we?

Anywa, i have things to do, but as seen ,most nations identify by their nationality

In fasct most western nations do this

Hence the argument made by quill, has no foundation

I think that what got his nose out of joint was the minority Republican Jews, that sat listening to Trump

Little does he know, that over 70% of American Jews vote Democrat

So he needs to explain to me. How he thinks its possible to have an exclusive Jewish society, that has these non-Jewish people?

Back later

As for your many images, I put to you the same thought that I’ve used many times before: you can’t generalize from specifics. You can cherry-pick many, many examples, and it still doesn’t tell the whole story.

Anyway, i have things to do, but as seen ,most nations identify by their nationality

In fasct most western nations do this

Not modernly. White nationalism made the rounds during WWII, and was overwhelmingly rejected. We live in a smaller world, where we rub elbows with many different kinds of people. To fail to learn to work with others is counter-productive.

Also, keep in mind that Judaism is a religious creed, and not a traditional nationality…although Israel is trying to make it such. A creed involves emotions that go beyond mere national identity.

Hence the argument made by quill, has no foundation

Why? You haven’t even begun to address my argument. All you have tried to argue is, everyone is doing it. Everyone is doing it, is fashion statement, not a political argument.

I think that what got his nose out of joint was the minority Republican Jews, that sat listening to Trump

It’s not about me.

Little does he know, that over 70% of American Jews vote Democrat

And 86% of American Jews oppose the annexation of territories of Arab nations. Its just another iteration of lebensraum.

So he needs to explain to me. How he thinks its possible to have an exclusive Jewish society, that has these non-Jewish people?

Simple. Drop the “Jewish” in Jewish state, and stop treating Arabs like second-class citizens. Be like the United States…open to all. Oh, and um, stop stealing other peoples’ homelands.

Original Quill wrote:As for your many images, I put to you the same thought that I’ve used many times before: you can’t generalize from specifics.  You can cherry-pick many, many examples, and it still doesn’t tell the whole story.

Anyway, i have things to do, but as seen ,most nations identify by their nationality

In fasct most western nations do this

Not modernly.  White nationalism made the rounds during WWII, and was overwhelmingly rejected.  We live in a smaller world, where we rub elbows with many different kinds of people.  To fail to learn to work with others is counter-productive.

Also, keep in mind that Judaism is a religious creed, and not a traditional nationality…although Israel is trying to make it such.  A creed involves emotions that go beyond mere national identity.  

Oh for fuck sake..

Well you are inherantly wrong in how it was widely rejected
In fact Italy, Spain, Romania, Hungary. Croatia, Bulgaria etc to name a few excepted this white nationalism

How you try to associate that with a Jewish idenity, shows the most warped views from you to date I guess

Why?  You haven’t even begun to address my argument.  All you have tried to argue is, everyone is doing it.  Everyone is doing it, is fashion statement, not a political argument.

What argument?

I hav easily taken this aprt and shown that you only seem to want to apply this to israel and even then. You then  have not presented any view or democracy and staehood

It’s not about me.

Its neither about your ability to understand simple nationalities and Israeli law it seems

And 86% of American Jews oppose the annexation of territories of Arab nations.  Its just another iteration of lebensraum.

There has been no annexation of territories of Arab nations. Showing again your really poor understanding of international law and the fact Israel is a an occupying power within the west bank and only in area C. The Oslo accord, provided semi-authority to the palestinians
Hence your idiotic view to cast this alongside lebensraum. Is about as dum as it gets. There has never been an Paelstinian independent state. So how can it be annexed land? Its called contested land, of which nobody owns. All Israel does is control, through international law as an occupying power

Alsoe Isreal has constantly given up land won, for peace. Its just about the most insulting thing to claim, when people associte israel to nazi policy. Its so poor, but its what the Far left stoop too, on order to garner points

So no land has been annexed

Simple.  Drop the “Jewish” in Jewish state, and stop treating Arabs like second-class citizens.  Be like the United States…open to all.  Oh, and um, stop stealing other peoples’ homelands.

Simple, stop being the love child of Eva Braun and Corbyn

Israel is open to all, you are simple too uneducated to undertand Israeli law

phil wrote:Simple, stop being the love child of Eva Braun and Corbyn

Has no meaning in the US. BTW, Eva Braun had no children.

phil wrote:Israel is open to all, you are simple too uneducated to undertand Israeli law

Simple, stop advertising as the Jewish state and pass non-discrimination laws.

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:Simple, stop being the love child of Eva Braun and Corbyn

Has no meaning in the US.  BTW, Eva Braun had no children.  

phil wrote:Israel is open to all, you are simple too uneducated to undertand Israeli law

Simple, stop advertising as the Jewish state and pass non-discrimination laws.

It alread has non-discriminating laws. As well as being a democray

The reality is here and you certainly are not being within any rational reality. Is that you have no clue about international or even israeli law

When you have actually looked into this

Then come back and join me in a decent debate

So far Quill, you are hjust throwing in falsehoods

I look forward to a time when you educate yourself on not only Israel, but international law

The fact i have shown, that non _jews have the same rights as Jews in Israel. Shows, you simple want to ignore facts

Have a good evening, as have to go out