armistice day

First topic message reminder :

armistice day is here again and for many they will stop and hold a respectful 2 minutes silence at 11am to be followed the following day this year by remembrance sunday.
It has become fashionable in some circles to ridicule the sacrifice that soldiers have made in all wars and many wish to no longer remember that sacrifice, in fact in newspeak the poppy has become the symbol of the racist and the war monger. It is neither of those things it is a symbol of remembrance for the fallen from all wars. the money raised from the sale of poppies goes towards veterans .the money raised for the white poppies does not, it goes into the pockets of the business's selling them and some goes to further the propaganda of their agenda.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/30/britains-oldest-poppy-seller-survived-auschwitz-says-will-never/

I am not sure if this means anything to americans, but they do have veterans day which I presume is similar.

Syl wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Good choice, Syl; my partner has one.

Quite how anyone who watched this morning's BBC News clip of disabled, and in one case formerly destitute, servicemen injured in more recent conflicts recount how the RBL poppy factory has provided them with work, an income and, just as importantly, dignity, and then disrespect the traditional poppy symbol  or manufacture  tatty copies for profit, I just cannot begin to appreciate or understand.

I agree Fred.

I seem remember you telling me you paid all that money and I got mine for £1.50 at the wholesalers!!!!   Mind you, I still buy my poppy from the proper source.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

I agree Fred.

I seem remember you telling me you paid all that money and I got mine for £1.50 at the wholesalers!!!!   Mind you, I still buy my poppy from the proper source.

100% of the profits from everything sold directly from the British Legion goes towards their good works, so I don't really care.
I still buy a paper poppy but I wear my enamel one more.

I've got one of those. I've also got a wristband, hair band, cross and plastic poppies. I always give to them every year, its the least I can do for the sacrifices they made.

Immoral sellers on Ebay have been selling some of the authorised crystal poppies at vastly inflated prices. Apparently some of the more popular ones had been sold out by the British legion.
When asked if they were donating to the BL they  said No, they already got a donation at point of purchase....so they have been pocketing all the profits.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scumbags-cash-selling-thousands-poppies-11503427

One of my earliest memories was of having a poppy pinned to my coat and walking with my mam and dad to the next village to attend the service at the war memorial. My father served from age 17 to 21 in the first war and lost many friends, he would rarely talk about it, I only found out a good few years after he died where he had been etc when I obtained a summary of his records. My mother worked in the local arsenal during the second, they didn't miss a year until my dad wasn't well enough.

Vintage wrote:One of my earliest memories was of having a poppy pinned to my coat and walking with my mam and dad to the next village to attend the service at the war memorial. My father served from age 17 to 21 in the first war and lost many friends, he would rarely talk about it, I only found out a good few years after he died where he had been etc when I obtained a summary of his records. My mother worked in the local arsenal during the second, they didn't miss a year until my dad wasn't well enough.

different generation. Lets hope it does not get lost altogether by revisionist history.

It has been refreshing to see all the pictures from around the country where people still are paying their respects though.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Cass wrote:

I quite understand the emotion. I’m that way too. I’m understanding it as The Korean War yes?

Currently my son’s new father in law is retired US Army and is dealing with PTSD. He’s been through hell but hopefully is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel now. That’s why I’m still involved with Forces charities, to help those like him who came back damaged.

Thanks as ever Lord M x

No, it was the war against the Japanese, Cass.

I know that the USA bore the brunt,but the British and French, as well as other nations, were there from the start mainly because of our Colonial interests, and had been fighting for some time before the bombing of Pearl Harbour brought your country into the conflict.

We here know it as "the forgotten war" because the main conflict was in Europe and the men who fought in the Far East always felt, with some justification, that as a nation we had simply not recognised their sacrifices and privations in the same way and with the same gratitude and reverence as those on the European, African and Middle Eastern battlefields.

Servicemen and women who fought and died in the Far East were, of course, still doing so for months after we in the UK celebrated "the end of the war" in May 1945.

The Kohima memorial is in India, the "jewel in the crown" of the then British Empire and, of course, is still a leading member of our Commonwealth.

Ah yes. Sorry I’ve become used to the Americans calling Korea The Forgotten War.

My grandfather who died last year at 94 was in the Pacific theater. Leading convoys and then on a minesweeper. Apparently he never talked much about it to my mother and her siblings . But he opened up eventually to me and my husband and then the wider Family. I guess because Me. C was serving. We have his dress uniform and hat. Won’t part with it. My cousin got his ID bracelet. My mum has his tags.

I’m sorry about your uncle x

During the Pacific campaign, and during the occupation of Japan afterwards, MacArthur had military leaders and representatives from four countries in this region 'sitting around the table' at all times :     Britain (because of Singapore, Malaysia, etc.), India, Australia and New Zealand...

MacArthur was based in Oz for most of WWII..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur

True to form, the US education system is famous for portraying the US military as going it alone, ignoring all of their allies (as they also did with the Vietnam War --  forgetting that America had 19 allied countries in there with them..).

You don't hear anything about the Australian Regiment !

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Vintage wrote:One of my earliest memories was of having a poppy pinned to my coat and walking with my mam and dad to the next village to attend the service at the war memorial. My father served from age 17 to 21 in the first war and lost many friends, he would rarely talk about it, I only found out a good few years after he died where he had been etc when I obtained a summary of his records. My mother worked in the local arsenal during the second, they didn't miss a year until my dad wasn't well enough.

different generation. Lets hope it does not get lost altogether by revisionist history.

It has been refreshing to see all the pictures from around the country where people still are paying their respects though.

What has amazed me in this discussion has been the utter contempt shown for ex-servicemen and women; the complete lack of sympathy for those from more recent conflicts that are still suffering in so many ways, and the total ignorance about the work that veterans' associations and supporters actually do.

I wonder if any of the critics and detractors had their home towns bombed night after night? Mine was.

I wonder if any of them spent sleepless nights in cold and wet air raid shelters, only to come out next morning to see the corpses of neighbours, and sometimes friends, being collected in blood-stained sheets and blankets. I did.

I wonder whether any of them stood in assembly at school while the head teacher, tears rolling down her cheeks, read out the names of schoolmates who would never come to school again because Nazi airmen had killed them and their families the previous night. I did.

I wonder if any of these smug, supercilious fools ever had to go to bed hungry because their country was being starved into submission...and their parents even hungrier because they gave us part of what little they themselves had? I did.

Or spent months with hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops only a couple of dozen miles away awaiting Hitler's orders to invade us and start the shootings, slave labour and deportations. My country did.

Or whether anyone, including kids, had very few clothes, even in the worst of weather, and that what they did have was often worn, threadbare or even hand-me-down? I did.

Or never saw an orange or a banana until they were seven years old? I didn't.

Or suffered shortages and rationing, as well as freezing cold homes because of the lack of fuel, for years after the war ended. I did.

Yet we survived, in spite of everything. And we were grateful to those servicemen and women who made that possible.

And thinking back on all this, and after reading some of the contemptuous and insulting comments of those who suffered none of it and took without thanks all that my generation and my father's generation provided for them, I sometimes ask myself; For what?

Who made contemptuous and insulting comments? And who on this thread has shown utter contempt for servicemen and women on this thread.
I have reread this thread and no such comments exist.
My mum was a gunnery sargeant stationed at Crystal Palace. She downed several of Adolf's bombers.
My dad was a CPO stationed at Trincomalee in Ceylon. My pa in law was a stoker on LS198 during the Normandy landings.
Unwarranted indignation?

Good on your Mom Andy, but I don't think she shot down any of Adolf's Bombers. According to the book,
The defence of London during the War, very few were brought down by triple A !

She certainly would have given some of Stench's ancestors the shits.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
different generation. Lets hope it does not get lost altogether by revisionist history.

It has been refreshing to see all the pictures from around the country where people still are paying their respects though.

What has amazed me in this discussion has been the utter contempt shown for ex-servicemen and women; the complete lack of sympathy for those from more recent conflicts that are still suffering in so many ways, and the total ignorance about the work that veterans' associations and supporters actually do.

I wonder if any of the critics and detractors had their home towns bombed night after night? Mine was.

I wonder if any of them spent sleepless nights in cold and wet air raid shelters, only to come out next morning to see the corpses of neighbours, and sometimes friends, being collected in blood-stained sheets and blankets. I did.

I wonder whether any of them stood in assembly at school while the head teacher, tears rolling down her cheeks, read out the names of schoolmates who would never come to school again because Nazi airmen had killed them and their families the previous night. I did.

I wonder if any of these smug, supercilious fools ever had to go to bed hungry because their country was being starved into submission...and their parents even hungrier because they gave us part of what little they themselves had? I did.

Or spent months with hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops only a couple of dozen miles away awaiting Hitler's orders to invade us and start the shootings, slave labour and deportations. My country did.

Or whether anyone, including kids, had very few clothes, even in the worst of weather, and that what they did have was often worn, threadbare or even hand-me-down? I did.

Or never saw an orange or a banana until they were seven years old? I didn't.

Or suffered shortages and rationing,  as well as freezing cold homes because of the lack of fuel, for years after the war ended. I did.

Yet we survived, in spite of everything. And we were grateful to those servicemen and women who made that possible.

And thinking back on all this, and after reading some of the contemptuous and insulting comments of those who suffered none of it and took without thanks all that my generation and my father's generation provided for them, I sometimes ask myself; For what?

Not seen any such views on this thread

However, I am eternally grateful to the brave flyers of the RAF that defended Malta. Who were continually out numbered by the combined might of the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica and yet still daily went up to face them to protect the people. I give thanks to Royal Navy and Merchent Navy, who risked so much in order to supply the people with much needed food, oil etc whilst the the Axis powers were trying to starve the Maltese into submission. Countless people gave their lives in defence of the Island. The definance of the people was instrumental in the defeat of Rommel in North Africa. As it was from here that the Royal Navy with surface ships and submarines destroyed countless supplies ships for the Axis powers to North Africa. Malta was one of the most heavily bombed places in all of WW2 and shows the true resilience of the people, having to sustain such daily attacks. I stand in awe at the likes of fighter aces like George Beurling.

Remember those brave pilots flying "stringbags"? 3 of them named Faith, Hope and Charity? [that's the names of the planes not the Pilots]

nicko wrote:Remember those brave pilots flying "stringbags"?  3 of them named Faith, Hope and Charity?   [that's the names of the planes not the Pilots]

Cannot remeber the names mate, but talk about brave going up in Gloster Gladiators, a Bi-plane against the at the time modern Macchi fighters. I think there was more than 3 of these fighters, at the time on Malta. Not sure though.

I NEVER MET,

BUT HEARD THEIR STORY,

THE ORDINARY TALES OF GLORY.

THE DEEDS THEY DID TO KEEP US FREE,

THEY THOSE DEEDS FOR YOU AND ME.

IF I COULD THANK THEM

JUST ONE TIME,

I'D TELL THEM WHAT THEY DID FOR MINE,

THEIR LOSS, MY GAIN

MY LIFE, THEIR PAIN.

A DEBT I OWE BUT CANNOT PAY

INSTEAD REMEMBER ON THIS DAY.

sassy wrote:I NEVER MET,

BUT HEARD THEIR STORY,

THE ORDINARY TALES OF GLORY.

THE DEEDS THEY DID TO KEEP US FREE,

THEY THOSE DEEDS FOR YOU AND ME.

IF I COULD THANK THEM

JUST ONE TIME,

I'D TELL THEM WHAT THEY DID FOR MINE,

THEIR LOSS, MY GAIN

MY LIFE, THEIR PAIN.

A DEBT I OWE BUT CANNOT PAY

INSTEAD REMEMBER ON THIS DAY.

Indeed

Wrote it a few years back, my Grandad's twin brother was blown up next to him on a ship in WWI as well as so many of my family being in WWII, as I know yours were.   I wear the red and the white poppy.   It bothers me that the red is sponsored by armanents companies and the white (which the British Legion were asked twice if they would produe and have the profits from, and refused both times) is to remember all the others who died in every war, including the civilians, which are left out by the red poppy. The white also signifies wanting wars to end and the world to live in peace, something that is getting less and less likely. After all, this country makes a fortune from selling armanents.

sassy wrote:Wrote it a few years back, my Grandad's twin brother was blown up next to him on a ship in WWI as well as so many of my family being in WWII, as I know yours were.   I wear the red and the white poppy.   It bothers me that the red is sponsored by armanents companies and the white (which the British Legion were asked twice if they would produe and have the profits from, and refused both times) is to remember all the others who died in every war, including the civilians, which are left out by the red poppy.  The white also signifies wanting wars to end and the world to live in peace, something that is getting less and less likely.   After all, this country makes a fortune from selling armanents.

Beautiful sentiments. Sorry to hear about your Grandad’s twin.

Wars make profit and that’s the sad truth!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sassy wrote:Wrote it a few years back, my Grandad's twin brother was blown up next to him on a ship in WWI as well as so many of my family being in WWII, as I know yours were.   I wear the red and the white poppy.   It bothers me that the red is sponsored by armanents companies and the white (which the British Legion were asked twice if they would produe and have the profits from, and refused both times) is to remember all the others who died in every war, including the civilians, which are left out by the red poppy.  The white also signifies wanting wars to end and the world to live in peace, something that is getting less and less likely.   After all, this country makes a fortune from selling armanents.

Beautiful sentiments. Sorry to hear about your Grandad’s twin.

Wars make profit and that’s the sad truth!

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

sassy wrote:I NEVER MET,

BUT HEARD THEIR STORY,

THE ORDINARY TALES OF GLORY.

THE DEEDS THEY DID TO KEEP US FREE,

THEY THOSE DEEDS FOR YOU AND ME.

IF I COULD THANK THEM

JUST ONE TIME,

I'D TELL THEM WHAT THEY DID FOR MINE,

THEIR LOSS, MY GAIN

MY LIFE, THEIR PAIN.

A DEBT I OWE BUT CANNOT PAY

INSTEAD REMEMBER ON THIS DAY.

That's a lovely poem Sassy.

sassy wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Beautiful sentiments. Sorry to hear about your Grandad’s twin.

Wars make profit and that’s the sad truth!

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

Really?

Did Churchill never see combat?

Thank you Syl.

sassy wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Beautiful sentiments. Sorry to hear about your Grandad’s twin.

Wars make profit and that’s the sad truth!

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

You think we would have Wars if they did?

Coward scums

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sassy wrote:

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

You think we would have Wars if they did?

Coward scums

Nail - head.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
different generation. Lets hope it does not get lost altogether by revisionist history.

It has been refreshing to see all the pictures from around the country where people still are paying their respects though.

What has amazed me in this discussion has been the utter contempt shown for ex-servicemen and women; the complete lack of sympathy for those from more recent conflicts that are still suffering in so many ways, and the total ignorance about the work that veterans' associations and supporters actually do.

I wonder if any of the critics and detractors had their home towns bombed night after night? Mine was.

I wonder if any of them spent sleepless nights in cold and wet air raid shelters, only to come out next morning to see the corpses of neighbours, and sometimes friends, being collected in blood-stained sheets and blankets. I did.

I wonder whether any of them stood in assembly at school while the head teacher, tears rolling down her cheeks, read out the names of schoolmates who would never come to school again because Nazi airmen had killed them and their families the previous night. I did.

I wonder if any of these smug, supercilious fools ever had to go to bed hungry because their country was being starved into submission...and their parents even hungrier because they gave us part of what little they themselves had? I did.

Or spent months with hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops only a couple of dozen miles away awaiting Hitler's orders to invade us and start the shootings, slave labour and deportations. My country did.

Or whether anyone, including kids, had very few clothes, even in the worst of weather, and that what they did have was often worn, threadbare or even hand-me-down? I did.

Or never saw an orange or a banana until they were seven years old? I didn't.

Or suffered shortages and rationing,  as well as freezing cold homes because of the lack of fuel, for years after the war ended. I did.

Yet we survived, in spite of everything. And we were grateful to those servicemen and women who made that possible.

And thinking back on all this, and after reading some of the contemptuous and insulting comments of those who suffered none of it and took without thanks all that my generation and my father's generation provided for them, I sometimes ask myself; For what?

Well look at your kids and grandkids, who I'm sure are good and decent human beings, and look at all the similar people who are good and kind, they are living their lives in freedom because of the men who died so others could live in peace.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sassy wrote:

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

You think we would have Wars if they did?

Coward scums

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending to armed help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Didge wrote:

sassy wrote:

And it never the politicians or the heads of the armament companies that do the fighting, it's always the ordinary man and woman.

Really?

Did Churchill never see combat?

Don’t divert this beautiful thread

Start a new one

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:

Really?

Did Churchill never see combat?

Don’t divert this beautiful thread

Start a new one

So you want to defend poor views, due to the fact your views insulted many people?

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

nicko wrote:

You don't hear anything about the Australian Regiment !

Australia and New Zealand were well represented during WW1...

The Anzacs,

Gallipoli,
Paschendaele..
And the Australian cavalry :
the "40,000 horsemen" (culminating in the charge by 800 men of the 4th Light Horse Brigade at Beersheba -- often recalled as the greatest cavalry charge in the history of the planet..)
https://www.australiagreatwar.com.au/features/beershebaCharge.html

*********************************************************************

The British military leadership were a bit pissed off with Australia during WWII, though :

Three battallions of Aussies, along with a contingent of Kiwis, were in northern Africa...

The British commanders back in London wanted to use Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians and Indians as sacrificial "cannon fodder" as part of their African campaign...

The Aussie leadership at the time, with the impending Japanese threat closer to home, decided to bring two battallions back to defend New Guinea, the Solomons and northern Australia..

New Zealand and India also brought back some of their contingents to face off against the Japs.

Montgomery and his cronies tried to keep all the allied Commonwealth troops there to do their bidding, but failed in their disgusting bullying efforts (after all, we were independent countries by that stage..).

They wanted then to have the Allied leaders charged with treason and treated as traitors, but of course had no authority to do so, and basically had to "eat shit", instead.

Being the arseholes they were (and widely despised by many British troops, as well as their allies..), they got their petty "revenge" in a different way -- playing down the contribution by allied forces in northern Africa..

And largely ignoring the fact that the Aussie AIF (and other Commonwealth countries..) were marching into Europe alongside the British Army..

Those WWII British brigadier generals and field marshalls are considered in quite a different light by many Commonwealth countries, than the way that the British establishment look at them.

You might like this Wolfie

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Don’t divert this beautiful thread

Start a new one

So you want to defend poor views, due to the fact your views insulted many people?

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Lolololol


You think you are the only one who knows history?

Churchill is despised by Millions

Go and figure out why

You might actually learn something!

Arrogant prick

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:

So you want to defend poor views, due to the fact your views insulted many people?

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Lolololol


You think you are the only one who knows history?

Churchill is despised by Millions

Go and figure out why

You might actually learn something!

Arrogant prick

Ah so all you can do is resort to childish insults.

Is this what Islam teaches you?

Maybe you are unaware that Churchill was a great admirer of Islam and the Arabs, but hey, someone of your small minded intellect and proving again here how you hate, shows how easily you are brainwashed.

I do not deny Churchill was essentially racist and did wrongs.

That was not the point here, what this was on, in who you called people in power cowards and backed Sassy's poor incorrect view.

So again I will ask

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Angry Andy wrote:Who made contemptuous and insulting comments? And who on this thread has shown utter contempt for servicemen and women on this thread.
I have reread this thread and no such comments exist.
My mum was a gunnery sargeant stationed at Crystal Palace. She downed several of Adolf's bombers.
My dad was a CPO stationed at Trincomalee in Ceylon. My pa in law was a stoker on LS198 during the Normandy landings.
Unwarranted indignation?

Apologies. It was a different thread but a related topic.

The comments were made out of sheer ignorance and were deeply insulting and offensive, and I have no wish to pursue them further here.

You should be proud of your relatives, and I am sure that you are - as I am of mine and, indeed, all who served and continue to serve their countries.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:

So you want to defend poor views, due to the fact your views insulted many people?

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Lolololol


You think you are the only one who knows history?

Churchill is despised by Millions

Go and figure out why

You might actually learn something!

Arrogant prick

Indeed SM, the book I am reading at the moment, Inglorious Empire by Shashi Tharoor, goes a long way to explain the contempt he was held in by India.

sassy wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lolololol


You think you are the only one who knows history?

Churchill is despised by Millions

Go and figure out why

You might actually learn something!

Arrogant prick

Indeed SM, the book I am reading at the moment, Inglorious Empire by Shashi Tharoor, goes a long way to explain the contempt he was held in by India.

Nobody is deny his wrongs

Astounding how this tag team cannot answer simple questions

Try again

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending forces help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You think we would have Wars if they did?

Coward scums

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending to armed help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

hiya didge

i can get SM's and sassy's points though to be fair

my dad once said that it was the politicians that started the war and the average joe that pays the price for it

he said that if the average joe turned round and said to the politicians ''fine, you want war,,,,,YOU and YOUR sons can go first into battle and we'll be right behind you, they may well think again''

i get that

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:

Showing again how poor you have an understanding of history

So do you think the decision to protect the self determination of the Polish people was cowardly?

Or how we sent troops to Norway, France, Greece etc to help those nations

You think it was cowardly by the Governements?

Have you told the people of France, Norway, Greece etc that you think our Goverments were cowards for sending to armed help to them?

Maybe you think we should have allowed the Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims to be exterminated and that we should not have sent troops to help stop these genocides?

hiya didge

i can get SM's and sassy's points though to be fair

my dad once said that it was the politicians that started the war and the average joe that pays the price for it

he said that if the average joe turned round and said to the politicians ''fine, you want war,,,,,YOU and YOUR sons can go first into battle and we'll be right behind you, they may well think again''

i get that

That is a fair point, but again you are not seeing the flip side are you?

What if we had not intervened with the invasion of Poland by declaring war?

What would Europe look like today?

Would Britain had submitted as it could have, if not Churchill was in power and defiant and instead Lord Halfiax was Prime Minsiter?

Its all well and good condemning leaders, when you fail to recognise those that stood up to tyranny and hate.

You and myself may be speaking German, if not for Churchill standing up to Hitler.

I agree its right to condemn leaders, but many a leader has also risen to the challenge to take on those agressive nations of hate

Syl wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

What has amazed me in this discussion has been the utter contempt shown for ex-servicemen and women; the complete lack of sympathy for those from more recent conflicts that are still suffering in so many ways, and the total ignorance about the work that veterans' associations and supporters actually do.

I wonder if any of the critics and detractors had their home towns bombed night after night? Mine was.

I wonder if any of them spent sleepless nights in cold and wet air raid shelters, only to come out next morning to see the corpses of neighbours, and sometimes friends, being collected in blood-stained sheets and blankets. I did.

I wonder whether any of them stood in assembly at school while the head teacher, tears rolling down her cheeks, read out the names of schoolmates who would never come to school again because Nazi airmen had killed them and their families the previous night. I did.

I wonder if any of these smug, supercilious fools ever had to go to bed hungry because their country was being starved into submission...and their parents even hungrier because they gave us part of what little they themselves had? I did.

Or spent months with hundreds of thousands of Nazi troops only a couple of dozen miles away awaiting Hitler's orders to invade us and start the shootings, slave labour and deportations. My country did.

Or whether anyone, including kids, had very few clothes, even in the worst of weather, and that what they did have was often worn, threadbare or even hand-me-down? I did.

Or never saw an orange or a banana until they were seven years old? I didn't.

Or suffered shortages and rationing,  as well as freezing cold homes because of the lack of fuel, for years after the war ended. I did.

Yet we survived, in spite of everything. And we were grateful to those servicemen and women who made that possible.

And thinking back on all this, and after reading some of the contemptuous and insulting comments of those who suffered none of it and took without thanks all that my generation and my father's generation provided for them, I sometimes ask myself; For what?

Well look at your kids and grandkids, who I'm sure are good and decent human beings, and look at all the similar people who are good and kind, they are living their lives in freedom because of the men who died so others could live in peace.

I do so, and they include the little girl whom I heard recite the words of the Komhima Epitaph shortly after I again delivered the Royal British Legion Exhortation at our local church remembrance service this morning.

She restored my faith after I had been reflecting on a particularly disgusting disruption of the service that took place in this village on the same Sunday three years ago.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Angry Andy wrote:Who made contemptuous and insulting comments? And who on this thread has shown utter contempt for servicemen and women on this thread.
I have reread this thread and no such comments exist.
My mum was a gunnery sargeant stationed at Crystal Palace. She downed several of Adolf's bombers.
My dad was a CPO stationed at Trincomalee in Ceylon. My pa in law was a stoker on LS198 during the Normandy landings.
Unwarranted indignation?

Apologies. It was a different thread but a related topic.

The comments were made out of sheer ignorance and were deeply insulting and offensive, and I have no wish to pursue them further here.

You should be proud of your relatives, and I am sure that you are - as I am of mine and, indeed, all who served and continue to serve their countries.

No problem Fred.
Was immensly proud of mum and dad, despite neither really ever wanting to talk about it. Mum was a gunny in London during the blitz. Made sergeant by the age of 22. Drove jeeps around whilst bombs poinded the streets. Such courage.
Weirdly, dad witnessed the famous Trincomalee UFO, along with hundreds of others. Best described as a silver Concorde that hovvered over thw base then flew off at incredible speed. It was reported as a Jap spy plane at the time.
Pa in law was only a stoker, but wore his well earned medals with huge pride.
I took him to the boat show at Earls Court one year, Princess Anne saw his RN blazer and held up her tour for a good 10 mins to chat to him. He was nearly overwhelmed. She was so warm, courteous and kind to him.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well look at your kids and grandkids, who I'm sure are good and decent human beings, and look at all the similar people who are good and kind, they are living their lives in freedom because of the men who died so others could live in peace.

I do so, and they include the little girl whom I heard recite the words of the Komhima Epitaph shortly after I again delivered the Royal British Legion Exhortation at our local church remembrance service this morning.

She restored my faith after I had been reflecting on a particularly disgusting disruption of the service that took place in this village on the same Sunday three years ago.

Its not hard to be disheartened when we see things like that....reading the news is often pretty depressing too.

I like the expression 'look up at the stars not down in the gutter'....there is plenty good to be seen, and its amazing how one little innocent girl can cancel out the bad memory.

on a bus going to romford this morning, bus fairly crowded and half way there the bus driver pulled over and announced a 2 minute silence.

there were two kids with their mum where i was sitting about 3 and 5 years old both wearing poppies and, apart from little sucking noises coming from the 3 year old with a lollipop the whole bus was silent

most unexpected and most heartwarming

I've been out to the parade today, and it was as wonderful as ever.

Didge wrote:

gelico wrote:

hiya didge

i can get SM's and sassy's points though to be fair

my dad once said that it was the politicians that started the war and the average joe that pays the price for it

he said that if the average joe turned round and said to the politicians ''fine, you want war,,,,,YOU and YOUR sons can go first into battle and we'll be right behind you, they may well think again''

i get that

That is a fair point, but again you are not seeing the flip side are you?

What if we had not intervened with the invasion of Poland by declaring war?

What would Europe look like today?

Would Britain had submitted as it could have, if not Churchill was in power and defiant and instead Lord Halfiax was Prime Minsiter?

Its all well and good condemning leaders, when you fail to recognise those that stood up to tyranny and hate.

You and myself may be speaking German, if not for Churchill standing up to Hitler.

I agree its right to condemn leaders, but many a leader has also risen to the challenge to take on those agressive nations of hate

no, I am seeing the flip side and I totally agree with you

was just putting in my twopenny worth with regards to sassys comment is all

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:

That is a fair point, but again you are not seeing the flip side are you?

What if we had not intervened with the invasion of Poland by declaring war?

What would Europe look like today?

Would Britain had submitted as it could have, if not Churchill was in power and defiant and instead Lord Halfiax was Prime Minsiter?

Its all well and good condemning leaders, when you fail to recognise those that stood up to tyranny and hate.

You and myself may be speaking German, if not for Churchill standing up to Hitler.

I agree its right to condemn leaders, but many a leader has also risen to the challenge to take on those agressive nations of hate

no, I am seeing the flip side and I totally agree with you

was just putting in my twopenny worth with regards to sassys comment is all

No problem gelico.

I would not mind if sassy had been specific on leaders, but she clubbed all of them together.

That was wrong to do so.

Raggamuffin wrote:I've been out to the parade today, and it was as wonderful as ever.

I hope yours was not as cold as ours!

Angry Andy wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Apologies. It was a different thread but a related topic.

The comments were made out of sheer ignorance and were deeply insulting and offensive, and I have no wish to pursue them further here.

You should be proud of your relatives, and I am sure that you are - as I am of mine and, indeed, all who served and continue to serve their countries.

No problem Fred.
Was immensly proud of mum and dad, despite neither really ever wanting to talk about it. Mum was a gunny in London during the blitz. Made sergeant by the age of 22. Drove jeeps around whilst bombs poinded the streets. Such courage.
Weirdly, dad witnessed the famous Trincomalee UFO, along with hundreds of others. Best described as a silver Concorde that hovvered over thw base then flew off at incredible speed. It was reported as a Jap spy plane at the time.
Pa in law was only a stoker, but wore his well earned medals with huge pride.
I took him to the boat show at Earls Court one year, Princess Anne saw his RN blazer and held up her tour for a good 10 mins to chat to him. He was nearly overwhelmed. She was so warm, courteous and kind to him.

Just given you a greenie for that. Now that just has to be a first!

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I've been out to the parade today, and it was as wonderful as ever.

I hope yours was not as cold as ours!

It was cold but well worth it Fred.

Just been watching the Centotaph service this mornings my. Moving as always.

Will try and get The Festival of Remembrance tonight through YouTube. Every year I cry watching it at the end.

Let’s all hope that there will very soon be no more war. X