How will the Corbynites react?

by Guest Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:03 pm

Although I’m not in the UK, I’ve got the impression from reading posts and comments by others at Harry’s Place that the Labour party has become downright inhospitable for anyone who considers themselves a Zionist or a friend of Israel. I’ve got the idea that the party is now essentially controlled by people who are hostile to Israel– not just the current Israeli government, but Israel itself.

So I’ll admit to surprise at this report from LabourList:

People who believe Israel does not have the right to exist should be drummed out of the Labour Party, Emily Thornberry said today. The shadow foreign secretary also used a speech to mark the centenary of the Balfour Declaration – which enshrined Britain’s support for a Jewish national homeland – to condemn the “scourge” of anti-Semitism.

Thornberry, one of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest allies, was clear to repeat Labour’s longstanding call for international recognition for a Palestinian state living alongside an Israel in “peace and security”.
She was speaking after Theresa May met Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, before a dinner timed to recognise the Balfour anniversary tonight.

Corbyn is not attending the dinner and asked Thornberry to attend in his place.

“As we look back over these past 100 years, we must also salute the resilience and strength of the Israeli State and the Israeli people against all those who have sought to harm and destroy them: a resilience that has had constantly to adapt as the threats over the years have changed from the conventional warfare of 50 years ago to the ever-shifting tactics of terrorists today,” Thornberry said today.

So what does this mean? Taken at face value, Thornberry’s statement suggests she believes anti-Zionism within Labour should not be tolerated. Did Corbyn approve this welcome development? If not, how will he and his anti-Zionist supporters react? How does this fit in with the reinstatement to the party of the anti-Zionist Moshe Machover? And perhaps most important, is Thornberry willing to go to the mat on this? Beyond rhetoric, how far is she willing to take it?

http://hurryupharry.org/2017/11/02/how-will-the-corbynites-react/

by Guest Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:07 pm

Comprehension isn't your thing is it. Israel has a right to exist, within it's borders. It doesn't have a right to exist in Palestine.

by Guest Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:12 pm

sassy wrote:Comprehension isn't your thing is it. Israel has a right to exist, within it's borders. It doesn't have a right to exist in Palestine.

Really?

So when did Palestine as a nation exist before Israel?

The two times when their has been Jewish states?

Seems your revisionist history is all over the place

There never ever has been a Palestinian nation, though, there could have been if the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN partition plan and again numereous times Israel has sought peace with them.

Every time the Palestinian Arabs have rejected this. Who I might add, did not consider themselves Palestinians until the 1960's.

I mean the Kurds have a history and former nation. Where is the world standing up for their right to self determination?

I mean I back a Palestinian state and a Kurdish state. Yet the world only singles out this one group of people, the Palestinians. When there is hundreds of groups of stateless people around the world. Many within the middle East.

Do you stand up for their rights to self determination also Sassy?

I mean lets face facts. If Israel did not exist today from 1948. Then neither would a Palestinian state. The lands would have been absorbed by Syria, Jordan and Eygpt.

So how about Judea within the area that is today called the West Bank?

You know the place where the name Jew derives from?

So you are saying Jews do not have a right to a nation within the land they had their genesis from?

That would be like saying the Lakota have no right to a nation in North and South Dakota and that the land belongs to the United States.

Anyway, talk about a massive misdirection from the actual article on Labour and those anti Israel and anti Zionist.

by Guest Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:13 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:Comprehension isn't your thing is it. Israel has a right to exist, within it's borders. It doesn't have a right to exist in Palestine.

Really?

So when did Palestine as a nation exist before Israel?

The two times when their has been Jewish states?

Seems your revisionist history is all over the place

There never ever has been a Palestinian nation, though, there could have been if the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN partition plan and again numereous times Israel has sought peace with them.

Every time the Palestinian Arabs have rejected this. Who I might add, did not consider themselves Palestinians until the 1960's.

I mean the Kurds have a history and former nation. Where is the world standing up for their right to self determination?

I mean I back a Palestinian state and a Kurdish state. Yet the world only singles out this one group of people, the Palestinians. When there is hundreds of groups of stateless people around the world. Many within the middle East.

Do you stand up for their rights to self determination also Sassy?

I mean lets face facts. If Israel did not exist today from 1948. Then neither would a Palestinian state. The lands would have been absorbed by Syria, Jordan and Eygpt.

So how about Judea within the area that is today called the West Bank?

You know the place where the name Jew derives from?

So you are saying Jews do not have a right to a nation within the land they had their genesis from?

That would be like saying the Lakota have no right to a nation in North and South Dakota and that the land belongs to the United States.

Anyway, talk about a massive misdirection from the actual article on Labour and those anti Israel and anti Zionist.

I guess Sassy cannot take people correcting her invented revisionist bullshit history

Cool

by Raggamuffin Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:39 pm

sassy wrote:Comprehension isn't your thing is it. Israel has a right to exist, within it's borders. It doesn't have a right to exist in Palestine.

I agree with that.

by Guest Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:42 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Comprehension isn't your thing is it. Israel has a right to exist, within it's borders. It doesn't have a right to exist in Palestine.

I agree with that.

So you think Jews do not have a right to a nation in Judea?

Palestine has had a right to exist countless times.

Why are you not asking why its leaders have rejected this every single time?

Take your time on that

by magica Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:19 am

The Jews were given Israel in 1948. They were offered other lands like part of Australia etc, but they wanted Israel which was part of Palestine I believe. The Palestinians lived there and were pushed out from Israel.

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:37 am

magica wrote:The Jews were given Israel in 1948. They were offered other lands like part of Australia etc, but they wanted Israel which was part of Palestine I believe. The Palestinians lived there and were pushed out from Israel.

And there is a fine example of how history has been distorted and reinvented. Through piss poor left wing bullshit.

There has never been a Palestinian people until the British Mandate of Palestine and the only people that classed themselves under this were the Jews

The Arabs considered themselves part of Syria.

The Jews were never given Israel in 1948, they declared independence in what was the areas of the UN partition plan.

What people do not understand. Is that well before Israel formed an idenpendent state for a second time in history in 1948. The Arabs started a civil war within the British Mandate for Palestine. Something that had been going on for over 50 years. This Civil war saw many people flee their homes. Though some were ethically cleansed by the Israeli's during the war in 1948

The only people that classed themselves as Palestinians, were the Jews, under the British Mandate. The Arabs, thought of themselves as part of what became known as Syria. The Palestinian movment was an invention in the 1960's, backed by the Soviet Ubuin. More so in opposition to the US.

The Jews were certainly not offered other lands. In fact, during WW2, they could hardly gain VISA to the US, UK, Australia or the British Mandate of palestine. The later due to the British White paper. Its a fucking insult to even suggest this, during the Holocaust.

The Palestinaisn are mainly people who came at the time after Saladin in the 12 century. Most people their emigrated to the region and were Arabs. Like Colonialism, Arabization took contgrol of the region.

So the Jews were not given Israel, they declared indepedence. From a world that had constantly rejected them as a Jewish people.

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:50 am

magica wrote:The Jews were given Israel in 1948. They were offered other lands like part of Australia etc, but they wanted Israel which was part of Palestine I believe. The Palestinians lived there and were pushed out from Israel.

If you are interested in facts, not propaganda Magica, this is 10 mins that will tell you exactly what happened.

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:54 am

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:57 am

sassy wrote:
magica wrote:The Jews were given Israel in 1948. They were offered other lands like part of Australia etc, but they wanted Israel which was part of Palestine I believe. The Palestinians lived there and were pushed out from Israel.

If you are interested in facts, not propaganda Magica, this is 10 mins that will tell you exactly what happened.

The worst part of that video is that it fails to understand Islam

Where Jews had to pay a tax called the jizya.

As well as Christians did.

This is what makes me laugh, that left wing racists like yourself fail to understand, that this system, was a system of Aparthied

It also portrays a myth, that Jews never suffered under Islamic rule

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:02 am

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:12 am

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:27 am

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:03 am

Balfour Declaration Myth 5: The Balfour Declaration should cause Britain shame and warrants an apology. Truth: From 1919 to 1945, about 400k Jews emigrated (or escaped) from Europe to British-ruled Palestine. The British prevented many more from coming, but these made it. If there hadn’t been a British mandate in Palestine, but an Arab state (perhaps under the Mufti), those hundreds of thousands of Jews would have been caught in Europe and exterminated. If you don’t count dead Jews in any calculus, then “Balfour Apology” is your cause.

How will the Corbynites react? 23031479_10156908248727293_1919406752452593837_n

How will the Corbynites react? 23031479_10156908248727293_1919406752452593837_n

Here’s Balfour Declaration Myth 4: The British failed to consult the Palestinian Arabs. True, they didn’t consult, but why was that a failure?

• This was war, the British hadn’t yet taken Jerusalem. Who in history has consulted the population of enemy territory in wartime?

• And they were the enemy. Palestinian Arabs didn’t revolt against the Turks or help the Allies. Lloyd George later called them “quiescent and cowering…. We could not get in touch with the Palestinian Arabs as they were fighting against us.” (See illustration: Arab recruits to Ottoman army leave Jerusalem for Gallipoli.)

• The British ruled an empire of 400m people. They didn’t consult Indians or Egyptians about their future, so why expect them to consult Palestinian Arabs?

• They did insist on the prior approval of the one world leader who championed self-determination: Woodrow Wilson. He signed off on the Balfour text in advance.

Balfour Declaration, Myth 3: The Balfour Declaration dispossessed the Palestinians. This is exemplified by the cartoon below. A girl in a Palestinian refugee camp asks: “What is the Balfour Declaration?” A boy answers: “I think it’s the reason we’re refugees in a camp.” Truth: the Balfour Declaration was so vague that it could have led anywhere, and 31 years elapsed from Balfour to the first refugee camp. In that time, Palestinians made fateful errors, and most crucially, rejected the UN partition plan of 1947 that would have given them a state. Their Balfour myth is conveniently self-absolving.

How will the Corbynites react? 22859837_10156895527722293_958160309165278154_o

How will the Corbynites react? 22859837_10156895527722293_958160309165278154_o

Balfour Declaration, Myth 2: The Balfour Declaration was “antisemitic.” Logic? Balfour and Lloyd George issued the declaration to influence the Jews of Russia and America, in the hope they would keep their governments in the war. This was an exaggeration of Jewish power, and thus “antisemitic.” Truth: yes, they exaggerated Jewish power, but people do it today (“Israel Lobby”) and that doesn’t make them antisemites. Jewish conspiracy (“Elders of Zion”) is another matter. Balfour and Lloyd George weren’t there.

Myth 1: “It’s not about us (US).” Lots of people assume that the Balfour Declaration was a British thing, no business of America’s. See the State Department spokesman flail about last year, when asked whether the US has a position on it. Truth: President Wilson approved the text in advance, and praised it in a public letter afterwards. In 1922, both Houses of the US Congress passed a resolution endorsing it (Lodge-Fish), and President Harding signed it. So yes, the US fully backed the Balfour Declaration.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2017/06/the-forgotten-truth-about-the-balfour-declaration/

by magica Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:14 am

sassy wrote:
magica wrote:The Jews were given Israel in 1948. They were offered other lands like part of Australia etc, but they wanted Israel which was part of Palestine I believe. The Palestinians lived there and were pushed out from Israel.

If you are interested in facts, not propaganda Magica, this is 10 mins that will tell you exactly what happened.

Thanx Sassy

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:17 am

magica wrote:
sassy wrote:

If you are interested in facts, not propaganda Magica, this is 10 mins that will tell you exactly what happened.

Thanx Sassy

Interesting that you evaded my facts

Why is that?

Are you afraid that you have wrongly educated on the history here Magica?

Over your really appalling revionist history

Just answer me one thing

In a future Palestinian state, why would Jewish settlers need to be removed?

Israel has many Arabs as Israeli citizens.

So why cannot a future Palestinian state have Jews?

Take as long as you like to answer

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:19 am

The Ten Commandments of Arab Lies

[*]The "Palestinian People" have an historic connection to the land.

This is very interesting since there is no such thing as a "Palestinian People". When the Romans changed the name of Israel to Palestine, the people living there at the time were Jews, not Arabs. If there had been a "Palestinian People", which there never was, they would have been Jews.

[*]The Palestinian People have been in the land from time immemorial.

For centuries pre-Israel Palestine was a forgotten, desolate wasteland inhabited by a remnant of Jews, along with some Christians and wandering Bedouins who certainly had no thought of a national identity of any kind.

[*]There were no Jews in Palestine until Israel became a state in 1948.

The Romans officially banished the Jews from Israel (Palestine) in 135 CE. However, historical records show there was always a Jewish presence in the land. While many were scattered, other Jews simply moved out of harm's way until a less hostile power ruled the land. Jews were returning to what is now Israel well before 1948. Many left Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.

[*]Arabs and Jews lived in harmony before Israel became a state.

Throughout the centuries, Jews as well as Christians, living under Islamic rule suffered persecution and humiliation, the intensity of which was determined by the character of a particular Moslem ruler. As second-class citizens, there was never a "good time" for non-Muslims living under Islamic rule. Because of the way that most Islamic countries look down on non-Muslims, they are always considered second-class citizens and less than equal. Arabs have rarely lived in harmony with anyone if they were the majority.

[*]The returning Jews displaced the Palestinian Arabs

The ancestors of most of the present-day Arab population migrated to the land after Jewish pioneers began to reclaim the land. They came from many different countries and were not original inhabitants of the land.

[*]The Jews stole Arab land

Jews returning to the land settled on unclaimed, unoccupied land or bought land from absentee Arab landowners at outrageously high prices. This is a matter of record.

[*]The Jews forced Arabs to flee Palestine

When Israel was declared a state in 1948, leaders from the surrounding Arab countries declared war on Israel and instructed the Arab civilians living in the land to flee until the Jews were annihilated. Israeli leaders, to no avail, urged the Arabs to stay. Property that they owned was abandoned.

[*]The Jews caused the Arab refugee problem

If Arab countries would assimilate and care for the "Palestinian" refugees, as Israel did for their Jewish refugees, there would be no refugee problem. Instead they use the refugees as political pawns in their struggle against Israel. No Arab country that wants "Palestinian Arabs" in their country as they would rather use the "Palestinian Arabs" as pawns rather than assimilate them into their populations and bring peace to the Middle East.

[*]Israel is the aggressor against defenseless Palestinians

In its brief history, Israel has had one war after another and each time they are blamed as the aggressor. The Arabs do not recognize the right of Israel to exist and are in a constant state of hostility against Israel. Their aim is to destroy Israel.

[*]Jerusalem is holy to Muslims

While Jerusalem is mentioned over eight hundred times in the Bible, it is not mentioned one time in the Koran. Muslims have had little or no interest in Jerusalem until the Jewish presence in modern times.

[/list]

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:23 am

History of Israel : What is Palestine and Palestinians?

How will the Corbynites react? Palestine

Map of Palestine under the British rule

See old maps of Palestine and Palestina that show the Biblical division of the so called West Bank.

In recent history, the area called Palestine includes the territories of the present day Israel and Jordan (see map above. For earlier history of the term see article). From 1517 to 1917 most of this area remained under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman Empire was dissolved at the end of World War I. Its successor, modern republic of Turkey, transferred Palestine to British Empire control under the Lausanne agreement that followed WW I.
In 1917 Great Britain issued the Balfour Declaration for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people". In 1922 Britain allocated nearly 80% of Palestine to Transjordan. Thus, Jordan covers the majority of the land of Palestine under British Mandate. Jordan also includes the majority of the Arabs who lived there. In other words, Jordan is the Arab portion of Palestine.
The residents of Palestine are called "Palestinians". Since Palestine includes both modern day Israel and Jordan both Arab and Jewish residents of this area were referred to as "Palestinians".

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.
Much of the Arab population in this area actually migrated into Israel and Judea and Samaria from the surrounding Arab countries in the past 100 years. The rebirth of Israel was accompanied by economic prosperity for the region. Arabs migrated to this area to find employment and enjoy the higher standard of living. In documents not more than hundred years, the area is described as a scarcely populated region. Jews by far were the majority in Jerusalem over the small Arab minority. Until the Oslo agreement the major source of income for Arab residents was employment in the Israeli sector. To this day, many Arabs try to migrate into Israel with various deceptions to become a citizen of Israel.

Even the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat himself, is not a "Palestinian". He was born in Egypt. The famous "Palestinian covenant" states that Palestinians are "an integral part of the Arab nation" -- a nation which is blessed with a sparsely populated land mass 660 times the size of tiny Israel (Judea, Samaria and Gaza included).

All attempts to claim Arab sovereignty over Israel of today, should be seen with their real intention: The destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and the only bulwark of the Judeo-Christian Western civilization in the Middle East.

Additional Resources:
Palestine the Greatest invention of Islam By Wild Bill
by Howard Grief
The True Identity of the So-called Palestinians
The History and Meaning of "Palestine" and "Palestinians"
The Jewish Claim to The Land of Israel and the origin of the term "Palestine"
What is a Palestinian Arab?
The Arabs in Palestine
Palestine Facts
The territories: To whom do they belong? (Hebrew with English subtitles).

https://www.science.co.il/israel-history/Palestine-history.php

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am

My next point to any poster is simple this.

Show me any Arab before the creation of the PLO in 1964 that lived within the West Bank under Jordanian rule and Gaza under Eygptian rule before 1967 that considered themselves Palestinian Arabs?

Then tell me why they never called for the creation of a Palestinian state within the West Bank or Gaza when occupied by Jordan and Eygpt?

That they actually called for the removal of the state of israel?

Take as long as you like to answer

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:37 am

magica wrote:
sassy wrote:

If you are interested in facts, not propaganda Magica, this is 10 mins that will tell you exactly what happened.

Thanx Sassy

Welcome Magica, so much rubbish put out there by Hasbara trolls (and Hasbara does exist, colleges for it believe it or not http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/israelprogram) pumping out a distorted history of the area. It's quite sickening.

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 am

sassy wrote:
magica wrote:

Thanx Sassy

Welcome Magica, so much rubbish put out there by Hasbara trolls (and Hasbara does exist, colleges for it believe it or not http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/israelprogram) pumping out a distorted history of the area. It's quite sickening.

Same questions go to you sassy. As all you seem to do is ad hominem attacks. Where even funnier your link does not work.

But that is all you can ever do is it not sassy?

Try to deligitimize people who rubbish your poor revisionist history.

You cannot counter facts, so instead attack people who actuallt present facts by calling them hasbara trolls.

So lets see if you have any ability to answer questions:

In a future Palestinian state, why would Jewish settlers need to be removed?

Israel has many Arabs as Israeli citizens.

So why cannot a future Palestinian state have Jews?

Take as long as you like to answer

My next point to any poster is simple this.

Show me any Arab before the creation of the PLO in 1964 that lived within the West Bank under Jordanian rule and Gaza under Eygptian rule before 1967 that considered themselves Palestinian Arabs?

Then tell me why they never called for the creation of a Palestinian state within the West Bank or Gaza when occupied by Jordan and Eygpt?

That they actually called for the removal of the state of israel?

Take as long as you like to answer

by Guest Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:50 am

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:30 pm

The Irony that the only one that says a group doesn't have right to exist is Didge the Zionist.

Sort of completely contradicts the OP, which is what most of the 'don't cares' are seeing and stating. that Zionists/Israel Seem as bad or worse than any pro-Palestine supports.

I don't care they can both blow themselves to hell for all it effects me, but to claim any moral justification on behalf of Israel is cleanly ludicrous Rolling Eyes

Also love the 'Self determination' Didge gives those that had been living in the area for generation prior to the establishment of Israel.... completely ignores that those people called and thought of themselves as Palestinians

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How will the Corbynites react?