Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients, Study Finds

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:28 pm

Chiropractic, homeopathy, acupuncture, juice diets, and other forms of unproven alternative medicine cannot cure cancer, no matter what some quacks might claim. Unfortunately, vulnerable cancer patients turn to these charlatans every year rather than visit real doctors, hoping for a miracle treatment to purge them of their monstrous disease.

But as a new study published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute makes painfully clear, as a treatment for cancer, alternative medicine does not cure; it kills.

A team of scientists from Yale University perused the National Cancer Database, a collection of 34 million records of cancer patients along with their treatments and outcomes, to identify patients who elected to forgo conventional cancer treatments like chemotherapy, radiotherapy, and surgery in favor of alternative medicine. They found 280 subjects diagnosed with nonmetastatic breast, prostate, lung, or colorectal cancer in 2004 who used alternative medicine (defined in the database as “other-unproven: cancer treatments administered by non- medical personnel”) and matched them with 560 control subjects who received conventional treatment. The researchers then tracked subjects’ outcomes over time.

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SOURCE REAL CLEAR SCIENCE

by Victorismyhero Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:03 pm

Hmmm....bad reporting.
whilst I agree with the findings (or at least am not surprised by them) I dispute the premise raised in the headline title.

the therapies are NOT killing the patients, the fact that it is not treating the cancer IS.
Given your prediliction for pedantry didge , I'm surprised at you Razz

also

one piece of BAD science

"The researchers could not specifically identify which alternative medicines subjects were using, although there shouldn't be much variation between therapies, since, by definition, there isn't convincing evidence that any alternative medicine is effective at treating cancer."

which strictly speaking isnt altogether true, and is mere assumption. without evidence.

what I would say however is that as an ADJUNCT to convention medicine some "alternatives" have a value..for instance cannabis, which does without doubt, help with some of the fouler side effects of chemo and radio therapy...(and not just by making you feel "happier...... man" though THAT in itself shouldnt be lightly dismissed)

by eddie Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:08 pm

I think it's also fair to point out that medicine does not always cure cancer either.

There are success stories on both sides. There are actually people who are living testaments to surviving cancer after medicine has failed and they've changed their diets and taken herbal substances. I'm sure they're not lying.

Mesothelioma is one of them. Some of those survival stories are amazing. Google them.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:12 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Hmmm....bad reporting.
whilst I agree with the findings (or at least am not surprised by them) I dispute the premise raised in the headline title.

the therapies are NOT killing the patients, the fact that it is not treating the cancer IS.
Given your prediliction for pedantry didge , I'm surprised at you

also

one piece of BAD science

"The researchers could not specifically identify which alternative medicines subjects were using, although there shouldn't be much variation between therapies, since, by definition, there isn't convincing evidence that any alternative medicine is effective at treating cancer."

which strictly speaking isnt altogether true, and is mere assumption. without evidence.

what I would say however is that as an ADJUNCT to convention medicine some "alternatives" have a value..for instance cannabis, which does without doubt, help with some of the fouler side effects of chemo and radio therapy...(and not just by making you feel "happier...... man" though THAT in itself shouldnt be lightly dismissed)

Yes that was a bad consensus in your reply Victor and you give heart to idiocy

Cannabis is already being used for treatments and is under going trials for whether it has beneficial abilities in helping combat cancers. Yet there is nothing to say cannabis oil can cure any form of cancer.

To say using alternatives is not killing the patients is about as dumbuckwittery as it gets.

For example, are you saying that if people prey for their daughter and refuse her a blood transfusion, their alternative remedy is not going to kill them?

Of course it will kill the child, because they that child has been denied what is known to actually work and save her life.

Hence people using alternative medicines who do not use known treatments, are fundamentally killing themselves, by using those alternatives.

by Victorismyhero Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:19 pm

definintions didge...definitions

of course praying isnt going to cure....but its just as doubtful if a prayer ever killed someone either.

what your are missing is the point that doing nothing doesnt kill, it "fails to save" which is another point entirely, even in ethics.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:19 pm

eddie wrote:I think it's also fair to point out that medicine does not always cure cancer either.

There are success stories on both sides. There are actually people who are living testaments to surviving cancer after medicine has failed and they've changed their diets and taken herbal substances. I'm sure they're not lying.

Mesothelioma is one of them. Some of those survival stories are amazing. Google them.

Really Eddie?

I do not buy hearsay, I am afraid and neither does the medical profession.

What they do is go off hard based evidence.

Lets see the medical records of these survivors?

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Lord Foul wrote:definintions didge...definitions

of course praying isnt going to cure....but its just as doubtful if a prayer ever killed someone either.

what your are missing is the point that doing nothing doesnt kill, it "fails to save" which is another point entirely, even in ethics.

Neither is the alternative going to cure and people being misled that it will, thus place their lives at risk and in danger.

Maybe we should start charging these companies with manslaughter that peddle these lies, as its clearly cost many lives. I mean surely if a company advertises falsehoods about a product on the premise it will cure, then they should be liable to prosecution. I mean countless doctors are liable for prosecution based off prescribing the wrong treatment

by Victorismyhero Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:definintions didge...definitions

of course praying isnt going to cure....but its just as doubtful if a prayer ever killed someone either.

what your are missing is the point that doing nothing doesnt kill, it "fails to save" which is another point entirely, even in ethics.

Neither is the alternative going to cure and people being misled that it will, thus place their lives at risk and in danger.

Maybe we should start charging these companies with manslaughter that peddle these lies, as its clearly cost many lives. I mean surely if a company advertises falsehoods about a product on the premise it will cure, then they should be liable to prosecution. I mean countless doctors are liable for prosecution based off prescribing the wrong treatment

AHHHH...thats better...you are getting there ...here, lets help you along te path of the logic of this...

It is NOT the "alternative cure that kills the patient, logically that is absurd (except perhaps in a very few cases) it is its FAILURE to work that kills.
NOW I propose therefore that whist the "alternative cure does not kill the patient, the IDEA that alternatives will work indeed does, by effectively denying the patient (by whatever psychological means) the therapies that might give them a chance. That is an ACTIVE act (of the idea, and therefor of the promulgator of that idea) Hence your point that it is the purveyors of this rubbish that are the killers, not their goods.

however one should of course be mindful of what I would call "the cannabis efect". as you say it is now being actively investigated for its anti cancer properties, (along with a number of other related compounds). However I doubt that, without the constant pressure and use of this as an alternative this would be the case. A case I suspect of "a lot of anecdotal evicence adding up to evidence in fact"

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:35 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Neither is the alternative going to cure and people being misled that it will, thus place their lives at risk and in danger.

Maybe we should start charging these companies with manslaughter that peddle these lies, as its clearly cost many lives. I mean surely if a company advertises falsehoods about a product on the premise it will cure, then they should be liable to prosecution. I mean countless doctors are liable for prosecution based off prescribing the wrong treatment

AHHHH...thats better...you are getting there ...here, lets help you along te path of the logic of this...

Debate over if you are going to be a patronizing twat

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:54 pm

Now I will explain what you are fundamentally not understanding as you are going off literally what will kill them, but failing to see the choice to use alternatives is going to kill them.

For example, a person chocking is faced by two people offering to help.

One offers prayers, the other offers to use the Heimlich maneuver.

One choice is going to kill you, the prayers.

The later offers you the best chance of survival

When it boils down to it, the decision will decide whether that person has generally set their own death sentence by using an alternative.

As all we are talking about is timescales, based off making the best choices to those that will end up killing you. The choices to use alternatives are likely to end up killing you, through dying of cancer. So instead of looking at this as you should have been instead of being a smart alec. You would see the point being made, that to use alternatives is effectively killing themselves. Yes it will be literally the cancer that will end up killing them, but the choice to use alternatives over that of what can work, is basically a death sentence.

by Victorismyhero Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:00 pm

All true thorin...and yet...

a science report should, if its to be respected, use precisionist grade language.

this is a pet niggle of mine....Reporters for science articles should BE scientists, not "yer average hack" or AT least have some understanding of the subject and how to interpret it.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:04 pm

Lord Foul wrote:All true thorin...and yet...

a science report should, if its to be respected, use precisionist grade language.

this is a pet niggle of mine....Reporters for science articles should BE scientists, not "yer average hack" or AT least have some understanding of the subject and how to interpret it.

They did use the correct language at JNCI

https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article-abstract/110/1/djx145/4064136/Use-of-Alternative-Medicine-for-Cancer-and-Its?redirectedFrom=fulltext

I agree this article I posted, did not use the correct title or language.

by 'Wolfie Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:10 pm

eddie wrote:I think it's also fair to point out that medicine does not always cure cancer either.

There are success stories on both sides. There are actually people who are living testaments to surviving cancer after medicine has failed and they've changed their diets and taken herbal substances. I'm sure they're not lying.

Mesothelioma is one of them. Some of those survival stories are amazing. Google them.

Bullshit, eddie...

Thete are no proven cancer cures from "alternative" therapies..
Only hearsay reports of apparent remissions; and some reductions and often removal of symptoms..

Of course those people are fibbing -- One only has to "follow the money trail" !

And remember, also -- Google is NOT a reference, it is a search engine..

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:18 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

AHHHH...thats better...you are getting there ...here, lets help you along te path of the logic of this...

Debate over if you are going to be a patronizing twat

Mmm... talk about hoist by your own petard. If you give it out, you need to be able to take it.

by Raggamuffin Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:21 pm

Chemo doesn't always work either. Many people who died were on chemo, or had been, and they still died. If people choose to try alternative methods, isn't it up to them?

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:22 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:
Debate over if you are going to be a patronizing twat

Mmm... talk about hoist by your own petard. If you give it out, you need to be able to take it.

I did take it, but also stated the debate would be over.

It stopped and I continued.

See how effective that is, because two people respect each other

Now I know you are still upset over your last tantrum where you were personal, but hey. I dont hold grudges like you petal.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:24 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Chemo doesn't always work either. Many people who died were on chemo, or had been, and they still died. If people choose to try alternative methods, isn't it up to them?

It is up to them, but are you comfortable that people are exploiting them through lies to make money out of them? To me that is malpractice and the law needs to change to charge those who peddle lies on internet as cures. The medical industry is extremely honest in the chances of survival using chemo.

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Mmm... talk about hoist by your own petard. If you give it out, you need to be able to take it.

I did take it, but also stated the debate would be over.

It stopped and I continued.

See how effective that is, because two people respect each other

Now I know you are still upset over your last tantrum where you were personal, but hey. I dont hold grudges like you petal.

It was amusing watching you stumble on that one. You're no match for LF.

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:30 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Chemo doesn't always work either. Many people who died were on chemo, or had been, and they still died. If people choose to try alternative methods, isn't it up to them?

No, it doesn't. In fact, it can be the thing that actually kills you.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:32 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I did take it, but also stated the debate would be over.

It stopped and I continued.

See how effective that is, because two people respect each other

Now I know you are still upset over your last tantrum where you were personal, but hey. I dont hold grudges like you petal.

It was amusing watching you stumble on that one. You're no match for LF.

I agree he is more intelligent and more knowledge (depending on the topic with knowledge) than I am and i am happy to admit that he is.

As seen though he still took on my points

Glad you get amusement out the debates Victor and I have, they tend to be some of the best on here..

Laughing

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:33 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Chemo doesn't always work either. Many people who died were on chemo, or had been, and they still died. If people choose to try alternative methods, isn't it up to them?

No, it doesn't. In fact, it can be the thing that actually kills you.

And you have just made the same error as i did

Chemo weakens your immune system, which thus increases the chances of you dying from something else if you become ill with.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:27 pm

It's an interesting thread

there are many many stories told on youtube of people who have survived cancer against prognosis by taking cannabis resin oil. they do not ask anyone for any money they are merely sharing their stories on line.

from research that they themselves did, any government would be loathe to allow it due to pressure by powerful pharmeceutical companies who would lose shit loads of money

my brother and his wife were doctors until recent retirement. my brother followed and discussed both my mum's and husband's condition with the doctors they were under.

my brother told me that problem was that there were so many different types of cancer. some can be held back/cured via chemo others can't but those that can't are given it anyway.

it does indeed kill of cancerous cells but also kills off the good healthy cells which leaves you prone to many infections and general weakening anyway

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:35 pm

gelico wrote:It's an interesting thread

there are many many stories told on youtube of people who have survived cancer against prognosis by taking cannabis resin oil. they do not ask anyone for any money they are merely sharing their stories on line.

from research that they themselves did, any government would be loathe to allow it due to pressure by powerful pharmeceutical companies who would lose shit loads of money

my brother and his wife were doctors until recent retirement. my brother followed and discussed both my mum's and husband's condition with the doctors they were under.

my brother told me that problem was that there were so many different types of cancer. some can be held back/cured via chemo others can't but those that can't are given it anyway.

it does indeed kill of cancerous cells but also kills off the good healthy cells which leaves you prone to many infections and general weakening anyway

Sorry Gelico, but you are buying into poor stories on the web.

The NHS is actually looking into cannabis to see if it can treat cancer

What really annoys me. When these bullshit alternative cure websites, claim is if many scientists/doctors would not tell of a cure if they found it, when its their life's work to try and find one. What people fail to understand is that the pharma companies would make more money if they had a treatment that cured cancer.

Your other points are correct Gelico

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:38 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:It's an interesting thread

there are many many stories told on youtube of people who have survived cancer against prognosis by taking cannabis resin oil. they do not ask anyone for any money they are merely sharing their stories on line.

from research that they themselves did, any government would be loathe to allow it due to pressure by powerful pharmeceutical companies who would lose shit loads of money

my brother and his wife were doctors until recent retirement. my brother followed and discussed both my mum's and husband's condition with the doctors they were under.

my brother told me that problem was that there were so many different types of cancer. some can be held back/cured via chemo others can't but those that can't are given it anyway.

it does indeed kill of cancerous cells but also kills off the good healthy cells which leaves you prone to many infections and general weakening anyway

Sorry Gelico, but you are buying into poor stories on the web.

no offence, didge but perhaps you might want to actually research these stories of real life people and tell me why you think they might be lying. like i said they have nothing to gain by lying. they are not asking for any money or donations of any kind.

listen to the stories before just dismissing them. you have an unfortunate habit of doing that

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:43 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Sorry Gelico, but you are buying into poor stories on the web.

no offence, didge but perhaps you might want to actually research these stories of real life people and tell me why you think they might be lying. like i said they have nothing to gain by lying. they are not asking for any money or donations of any kind.

listen to the stories before just dismissing them. you have an unfortunate habit of doing that

I have Gelico, where some have been posted on here and if you research them many had medical treatments for cancer. Most of which is omitted from within the stories. Hence why more than anything I do research, as my brother listened to such bollocks and died from his cancer.. So more than anything I have researched many claims, that do not stand up to scrutiny. Eddie has posted some before which i showed the people had medical cancer treatment the real cause of what helped them.

So maybe you should actually properly check instead of just listening to youtube, because that is not research and neither is blind gullibility to a story

Next you will be telling me I should believe Jesus rose from the dead

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:

no offence, didge but perhaps you might want to actually research these stories of real life people and tell me why you think they might be lying. like i said they have nothing to gain by lying. they are not asking for any money or donations of any kind.

listen to the stories before just dismissing them. you have an unfortunate habit of doing that

I have Gelico, where some have been posted on here and if you research them many had medical treatments for cancer. Most of which is omitted from within the stories. Hence why more than anything I do research, as my brother listened to such bollocks and died from his cancer.. So more than anything I have researched many claims, that do not stand up to scrutiny. Eddie has posted some before which i showed the people had medical cancer treatment the real cause of what helped them.

So maybe you should actually properly check instead of just listening to youtube, because that is not research and neither is blind gullibility to a story

Next you will be telling me I should believe Santa rose from the fireplace

well, he did

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:51 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I have Gelico, where some have been posted on here and if you research them many had medical treatments for cancer. Most of which is omitted from within the stories. Hence why more than anything I do research, as my brother listened to such bollocks and died from his cancer.. So more than anything I have researched many claims, that do not stand up to scrutiny. Eddie has posted some before which i showed the people had medical cancer treatment the real cause of what helped them.

So maybe you should actually properly check instead of just listening to youtube, because that is not research and neither is blind gullibility to a story

Next you will be telling me I should believe Santa rose from the fireplace

well, he did

By farting?

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:55 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:

well, he did

By farting?

accusing santa of farting is tantamount to blasphemy

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

No, it doesn't. In fact, it can be the thing that actually kills you.

And you have just made the same error as i did

Chemo weakens your immune system, which thus increases the chances of you dying from something else if you become ill with.

No, I didn't. Chemo does damage the immune system, but it also causes permanent organ damage, organ failure, internal bleeding, tissue loss, cardiovascular leakage. Just a few of the things it does to see you into the grave. It can actually cause another form of cancer if the treatment is prolonged.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:01 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

And you have just made the same error as i did

Chemo weakens your immune system, which thus increases the chances of you dying from something else if you become ill with.

No, I didn't. Chemo does damage the immune system, but it also causes permanent organ damage, organ failure, internal bleeding, tissue loss, cardiovascular leakage. Just a few of the things it does to see you into the grave. It can actually cause another form of cancer if the treatment is prolonged.

Show me any case where it has actually killed someone?

It can cause cancer to spread, it is believed, through a test done on breast cancer recently. But if the person has already got cancer, then this is the best available treatment, and thus it will be the cancer that will kill them.

Again it does not kill, but can weaken the patient so they are susceptible to other illnesses or conditions

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:03 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

By farting?

accusing santa of farting is tantamount to blasphemy

I thought it was how he propelled his reindeer's to fly.

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:44 pm

Thorin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

No, I didn't. Chemo does damage the immune system, but it also causes permanent organ damage, organ failure, internal bleeding, tissue loss, cardiovascular leakage. Just a few of the things it does to see you into the grave. It can actually cause another form of cancer if the treatment is prolonged.

Show me any case where it has actually killed someone?

It can cause cancer to spread, it is believed, through a test done on breast cancer recently. But if the person has already got cancer, then this is the best available treatment, and thus it will be the cancer that will kill them.

Again it does not kill, but can weaken the patient so they are susceptible to other illnesses or conditions

http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/ryan-4-killed-chemotherapy-designed-11307490

The chemo damaged this kid's bowels so badly, he died. It directly caused the damage which led to sepsis.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:46 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Show me any case where it has actually killed someone?

It can cause cancer to spread, it is believed, through a test done on breast cancer recently. But if the person has already got cancer, then this is the best available treatment, and thus it will be the cancer that will kill them.

Again it does not kill, but can weaken the patient so they are susceptible to other illnesses or conditions

http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/ryan-4-killed-chemotherapy-designed-11307490

The chemo damaged this kid's bowels so badly, he died. It directly caused the damage which led to sepsis.

It shows you cannot read can you?

What actually killed him?

Took you long enough to google to find one case, which the child died of sepsis.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:50 pm

The next question you need to answer Horatio, is would he have survived without the chemo treatment?

No

Its tragic, but one case does not make or an argument that chemo kills

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:56 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:

accusing santa of farting is tantamount to blasphemy

I thought it was how he propelled his reindeer's to fly.

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:58 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I thought it was how he propelled his reindeer's to fly.

by HoratioTarr Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:59 pm

Thorin wrote:The next question you need to answer Horatio, is would he have survived without the chemo treatment?

No

Its tragic, but one case does not make or an argument that chemo kills

Probably not. But there are documented cases of people who beat cancer naturally. Had they taken chemo they might have died.

Here's an interesting article.

https://www.livescience.com/35435-avastin-combined-with-another-therapy-raises-death-risk.html

by Guest Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Thorin wrote:The next question you need to answer Horatio, is would he have survived without the chemo treatment?

No

Its tragic, but one case does not make or an argument that chemo kills

Probably not. But there are documented cases of people who beat cancer naturally. Had they taken chemo they might have died.

Here's an interesting article.

https://www.livescience.com/35435-avastin-combined-with-another-therapy-raises-death-risk.html

The later they may have died is subjected to say the least if they had treatement.

By naturally how? The body working properly again?

That is not beyond the realms of impossible but would be very rare cases.

Again I have seen many documented cases and many do not hold up to scrutiny.

by 'Wolfie Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:04 am

gelico wrote:It's an interesting thread

there are many many stories told on youtube of people who have survived cancer against prognosis by taking cannabis resin oil. they do not ask anyone for any money they are merely sharing their stories on line.

from research that they themselves did, any government would be loathe to allow it due to pressure by powerful pharmeceutical companies who would lose shit loads of money

my brother and his wife were doctors until recent retirement. my brother followed and discussed both my mum's and husband's condition with the doctors they were under.

my brother told me that problem was that there were so many different types of cancer. some can be held back/cured via chemo others can't but those that can't are given it anyway.

it does indeed kill of cancerous cells but also kills off the good healthy cells which leaves you prone to many infections and general weakening anyway

What a load of bullshit...

The notion that a bunch of uneducated and gullible dopers did "their own research" only goes to demonstrate how many of you don't even understand the meaning of genuine "research", let alone the concept of a proper scientific methodology..

Those nongs promoting the idea of cannabis as a "cure" (rather than relieving symptoms a side-effects..) without a profit motive, are nothing more than pro-cannabis dopers looking for any excuse to champion their favourite 'drug of choice', while providing free advertising and lobbying for the hemp oil merchants.

by veya_victaous Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:04 am

gelico wrote:my brother told me that problem was that there were so many different types of cancer. some can be held back/cured via chemo others can't but those that can't are given it anyway.

it does indeed kill of cancerous cells but also kills off the good healthy cells which leaves you prone to many infections and general weakening anyway

that part is 100% true

although I am pretty sure that cannabis oils are only useful for alleviating the symptoms of chemo and not as a cure themselves

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