Is the hammer and sickle more or less offensive than the swastika.

Well in terms of dead the those that use the hammer and sickle have killed far more people than those that used the swastika. So I would say, while undoubtedly the use of the Swastika should be seen as offensive, the use of the hammer and sickle should be seen as even more offensive. Yet it seems to perfectly acceptable for those on the left top brandish a symbol of mass murder at every march they attend.

this should rile up the henhouse

It depends on the meaning of the symbols.  The swastika was a symbol of what is, or became pure evil.  There was no real ideology or philosophy behind it, and it was what it became.

The hammer and sickle was (and perhaps is still suggestive of) a symbol of the tools of the labor movement, beginning with Robert Owen and David Ricardo, and leading right up to the present day Labour Party in Britain.

The evolution of socialism went from revolution and the overthrow of the old order, to the emergence of laissez-faire economics, to protective orders of the artisans and skilled workers, to organized labor.

The Soviets were just one iteration of that progression, and a peculiar one at that.  Marx had little enthusiasm for the rooting of communism in rural Russia.  He saw it as an ideology for the more modern industrial nations of Britain, and France.  It would happen in stages: Marx and Lenin preached that any revolution would have to have a proletariat vanguard.  As Lenin described it:

Wiki wrote:In its first phase, the vanguard party would exist for two reasons. Firstly, it would protect Marxism from outside corruption from other ideas as well as advance its concepts. Secondly, it would educate the proletariat in Marxism in order to cleanse them of their "false individual consciousness" and instill the revolutionary "class consciousness" in them.

Our task is not to champion the degrading of the revolutionary to the level of an amateur, but to raise the amateurs to the level of revolutionaries.

If the party is successful in this goal, on the eve of revolution, a critical mass of the working class population would be prepared to usher forth the transformation of society.

Unfortunately, Marx and Lenin didn't fully understand human nature, and this phase of the transition would become permanent in Russia.  The Soviet Union became a dictatorship, just like the German Nazi regime.

But the hammer and sickle stands for much more, and not just in the former Soviet enterprise.  That symbol goes back to Great Britain, and the labor movements there and in France.  Indeed, Marx wrote most of Das Kapital in the British Library, in London.

BTW, the Library is hosting an exhibit this summer about the Russian Revolution:



It's called: Russian Revolution: Hope, Tragedy & Myths

Wow, so the hammer and sickle represents the USSR and how many were starved to death, shot, persecuted, sent to Gulags ect under this tyranny?

Its as bad as flying the Swastika and to even argue otherwise blatantly ignores history

The Swastika was an ancient sacred symbol until the Nazi's got their hands on it.

From what I hear, the swastika comes from India...

Wiki wrote:The clockwise swastika is a sacred and auspicious symbol in Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism. In Hinduism, the clockwise symbol is called swastika symbolizing surya (sun) and prosperity, while the counter clockwise symbol is called sauvastika symbolizing night or tantric aspects of Kali. In Jainism, a swastika is the symbol for Suparshvanatha – the 7th of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhism it symbolizes the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.

It was apparently just adopted and grafted onto the Nazi movement.

The hammer and sickle represents the merger of agrarian and industrial interests:

Wiki wrote:At the time of creation, the hammer stood for industrial laborers and the sickle for the peasantry; combined they stood for the worker-peasant alliance for socialism.

The hammer and sickle is more of a generic theme or mission statement, and it was incorporated into the symbols of the socialist movement; the swastika just meant good luck and could be adopted by any person or cause.

The swastika in its original form is still used all over Asia to the point unless I see it on a slant in a white circle on a red background I don't find anything bad about its use at all.

But I agree with Quill's point, it's about what the symbol represents.

The Nazi swastika represents the anti-Semitic superior race ideology of Nazism.

The hammer and sickle, in spite of being the emblem of the murderous Soviet Communists, REPRESENTS working people uniting. And that is a noble cause.

The fact the Soviet Union used the symbol does not alter what it stands for.

Eilzel wrote:The swastika in its original form is still used all over Asia to the point unless I see it on a slant in a white circle on a red background I don't find anything bad about its use at all.

But I agree with Quill's point, it's about what the symbol represents.

The Nazi swastika represents the anti-Semitic superior race ideology of Nazism.

The hammer and sickle, in spite of being the emblem of the murderous Soviet Communists, REPRESENTS working people uniting. And that is a noble cause.

The fact the Soviet Union used the symbol does not alter what it stands for.

Represents working people uniting?
By butchering a mass of them, deporting millions of ethnic groups, starving millions, sending millions to gulags?
What planet are you on?
The Hammer and sickle "Flag" is the symbol of the Soviet Union Communism and all its barbarism. To say otherwise again ignores history and is about the worst apologist nonsense going. Its the USSR flag being flown by the left in this country. 
Your same reasoning could be applied to the Swastika based on its original form, but this is about what it has become to be seen as. In both cases, they represent Soviet Communism and German Nazism, both pure evil.

How many times in history do we have to see Communism be an abject failure and a representation of barbarism, for the left to understand its flawed system?

A fine example of the brainwashed left and double standards.

You are having a Dianne Abbott moment mate

Ironic
Union Jack same shit
Symbol of colonial oppression.

what is offensive to one group is often praised by another


PS billions in Asia and ex colonial lands strongly disagree with Thorin and his Propaganda nonsense.
Communist China regarded as a huge success for the effective way it has thrown of the shackles of European imperialism and economic enslavement. it has raised more half a billion people out of poverty in 50 years by far the most successful economic movement in history for the average citizen.

veya_victaous wrote:Ironic
Union Jack same shit
Symbol of colonial oppression.

what is offensive to one group is often praised by another  


PS billions in Asia and ex colonial lands strongly disagree with Thorin and his Propaganda nonsense.
Communist China regarded as a huge  success for the effective way it has thrown of the shackles of European imperialism and economic enslavement. it has raised more half a billion people out of poverty in 50 years by far the most successful economic movement in history for the average citizen.

Really?

So any country based on expansion through aggression is oppression, no matter what time in history? Which means many countries does it not?
Communist China has now embraced capitalism, where before it has the highest numbers of people murdered and oppressed than any other state, but hey veyas whitewash of history

You might want to tell those who have the Union jack within their Flag seem proud to do so


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35890670

Umm you mean the people in Australia (aboriginals) that are campaigning to have it removed
or the majority of ex colonial nations that have already removed it, the progressive Australian that want it removed

through a lot of the world the Union jack is the symbol of oppression, colonialization and 'white pride'. never had Nazi try and commit genocide on this side of the earth had it attempted under the union jack though.

veya_victaous wrote:Umm you mean the people in Australia (aboriginals) that are campaigning to have it removed
or the majority of ex colonial nations that have already removed it, the progressive Australian that want it removed

through a lot of the world the Union jack is the symbol of oppression, colonialization and 'white pride'. never had Nazi try and commit genocide on this side of the earth had it attempted under the union jack though.

So what about all the other countries that have it?

All the other nations that have conquered and had empires, from the Arabs to the Chinese?

It seems only you see the Union jack as a symbol of oppression, mainly as you have an obession of hate against the Brits

I put that down to the fact you are part French and hate the fact the English have constantly kicked their butts in history

Nice deflection again though when we are talking about the Soviet Union flag

I DIDN'T know Veya was part French, I thought he was an Aboriginal/ Muslim !!

Eilzel wrote:The swastika in its original form is still used all over Asia to the point unless I see it on a slant in a white circle on a red background I don't find anything bad about its use at all.

But I agree with Quill's point, it's about what the symbol represents.

The Nazi swastika represents the anti-Semitic superior race ideology of Nazism.

The hammer and sickle, in spite of being the emblem of the murderous Soviet Communists, REPRESENTS working people uniting. And that is a noble cause.

The fact the Soviet Union used the symbol does not alter what it stands for.

those who sit under the hammer and sickle and it's derivatives have slaughtered far more people that the nazi's ever did. I find it incomprehensible that people try to justify it's use in this day and age whilst at the same time objecting to the swastika.
I guess it all depends on whether you support the objectives of those doing the slaughtering when you support the use of the hammer and sickle. I find both symbols repugnant, and the people who fly them equally repugnant.

veya_victaous wrote:Ironic
Union Jack same shit
Symbol of colonial oppression.

what is offensive to one group is often praised by another  


PS billions in Asia and ex colonial lands strongly disagree with Thorin and his Propaganda nonsense.
Communist China regarded as a huge  success for the effective way it has thrown of the shackles of European imperialism and economic enslavement. it has raised more half a billion people out of poverty in 50 years by far the most successful economic movement in history for the average citizen.

look vera you owe a debt of thanks to blighty for providing you with a country to sell off to china.

His reasons 2 and 3 are solid, and sum up good reasons why Nazism is viewed as worse.

Eilzel wrote:His reasons 2 and 3 are solid, and sum up good reasons why Nazism is viewed as worse.

I agree Eilzel, but Communism should be viewed just as bad, not worse but as bad.

The fact is Communism is taught in a good light by some teachers. Which does kind of make a mockery to the many victims of Communism. Its a leftist dream Utopia, which has been an absolute nightmare in practice.

There has never been a communist country.  That's why communism doesn't suffer the same reputation as Nazism.  The countries that have called themselves communist, are mere dictatorships: mainly  Russia, China, Cuba, and smaller nations that dip in and out of communism.  They are neither communist nor Marxist.

The problem with Marxism is that Marx was a wonderful critic of economics, but he was not architectonic in a political sense.  He never turned his attention to what/how a Marxist nation should be organized or structured.

As for communism, it was more of a French economic theory, associated with the French Workers' Movement...hence the hammer and sickle, later adopted by the Russians (who followed the French in everything).  In fact, Marx disavowed communism in 1850, two years after he and Engels wrote the The Communist Manifesto.  So Marxism is something different.

Social democracy is a third movement, but it's closest associate today is the British Labour Party.  It's philosophy was just pure, structural socialism: the state replaces capitalism, and profit is eliminated.  The British are always more practical.

Marx, after he launched into Capital, was consumed with economic theory.  He left behind what the state would look like in his 1844 (French) manuscripts.  

He had rough ideas, but they were just step-children to him.  For example, he felt that a transition to his Utopian state would involve a vanguard taking over, shepherding the transition, and then the bliss would blossom.  

It was ill-considered bullshit.  Lenin and Stalin took the vanguard over and turned it into a simple dictatorship.  Nothing ever came of a Marxist state. The meaning of Marxism and communism were sort of pissed away to the wind.

Hitler was real.  So were Stalin and Mao.  But they were all mere dictators.  Only Hitler named his dictatorship, but it wasn't anything profound or theoretical, like Marx. But Nazism is associated with his state (Russians called theirs Soviet Union), and that's why we have a bad taste for the word Nazi.

Thorin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Umm you mean the people in Australia (aboriginals) that are campaigning to have it removed
or the majority of ex colonial nations that have already removed it, the progressive Australian that want it removed

through a lot of the world the Union jack is the symbol of oppression, colonialization and 'white pride'. never had Nazi try and commit genocide on this side of the earth had it attempted under the union jack though.

So what about all the other countries that have it?

All the other nations that have conquered and had empires, from the Arabs to the Chinese?

It seems only you see the Union jack as a symbol of oppression, mainly as you have an obession of hate against the Brits

I put that down to the fact you are part French and hate the fact the English have constantly kicked their butts in history

https://yournz.org/2015/05/08/changing-flags-of-the-commonwealth/

well there are only 3 others that still have it

Original Quill wrote:There has never been a communist country.  

You cannot make it up how bad the left are in making shit up.

nicko wrote:I DIDN'T know Veya was part French, I thought he was an Aboriginal/ Muslim !!

No, for the millionth time (Pretty sure you memory is gone)

I can just respect and defend people that it don't identify as...

a trait you(and many of the stereotypical brits) are notably lacking

veya_victaous wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So what about all the other countries that have it?

All the other nations that have conquered and had empires, from the Arabs to the Chinese?

It seems only you see the Union jack as a symbol of oppression, mainly as you have an obession of hate against the Brits

I put that down to the fact you are part French and hate the fact the English have constantly kicked their butts in history

https://yournz.org/2015/05/08/changing-flags-of-the-commonwealth/

well there are only 3 others that still have it

Seriously please go back to school


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35890670

veya_victaous wrote:

nicko wrote:I DIDN'T know Veya was part French, I thought he was an Aboriginal/ Muslim !!

No, for the millionth time (Pretty sure you memory is gone)

I can just respect and defend people that it don't identify as...

a trait you(and many of the stereotypical brits)  are notably lacking

Some people have bad memories on here. Despite Quill being told many times that Horatio is female, he still refers to her as "he".

veya_victaous wrote:

nicko wrote:I DIDN'T know Veya was part French, I thought he was an Aboriginal/ Muslim !!

No, for the millionth time (Pretty sure you memory is gone)

I can just respect and defend people that it don't identify as...

a trait you(and many of the stereotypical brits)  are notably lacking

Britain has plenty of racist pigs - some of whom post here.
I would hope Veya doesn't  include me in that group.
Anyway, I am half Scottish.

Angry Andy wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

No, for the millionth time (Pretty sure you memory is gone)

I can just respect and defend people that it don't identify as...

a trait you(and many of the stereotypical brits)  are notably lacking

Britain has plenty of racist pigs - some of whom post here.
I would hope Veya doesn't  include me in that group.
Anyway, I am half Scottish.

ah bless, what a poppet you are.
however the most vile of the vile post on the forum sassy stole. you just have to read the stuff in the hidden section to know that.

The hammer & sickle are symbols of hard labour and honest toil.  More appealing than the swastika, which represents the intertwined intials - SS - of a violent paramiltary group created by Hitler. No brainer, sorry!


Yes the swastika was once a harmless symbol in many cultures and religions, but after it was hijacked by the nazis, it will never recover from the evil connotations associated with it.  It's role in mainstream life is lost for ever. The acid test is whether any of the big mainstream advertisers would touch it with a bargepole (Nike, Cocacola, chocolate brands). Nope, they won't dream of it.

The image & reputation of the nasty old swastika cannot be given a nice, new make over. There was a time when people were saying  that the clockwise symbol 卐 is the true nazi one, ... and the anticlockwise one 卍  should be used for everything else. Too late.  Whether it's 卐 or 卍  it's reputation can never be salvaged imo.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:There has never been a communist country.  

You cannot make it up how bad the left are in making shit up.

Name one.  Total odds you'll be wrong.  There have been communist parties, but there has never been a communist country.  They never get past the dictatorship stage.  A true communist country evolves into a workers commune, and has no leaders.

The ones calling themselves communist in the world today all have dictators, and bear no resemblance to the theory.

Only in the west though Jules. In East Asia (China, India, Thailand and Japan at least) the symbol is still commonly found in temples old and new, shrines and even adapted into decorative features.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:

You cannot make it up how bad the left are in making shit up.

Name one.  Total odds you'll be wrong.  There have been communist parties, but there has never been a communist country.  They never get past the dictatorship stage.  A true communist country evolves into a workers commune, and has no leaders.

The ones calling themselves communist in the world today all have dictators, and bear no resemblance to the theory.

PMSL where again you are deciding and making up history.
So you declaring they cannot be communist because they have dictators, does not mean they are not communist. Its like one Christian group saying to another they are not Christian, when there is 42,000 denominations. Its the worst apologist argument that comes from the left claiming Communist states are not communist, when they are communist.

Jules wrote:The hammer & sickle are symbols of hard labour and honest toil.  More appealing than the swastika, which represents the intertwined intials - SS - of a violent paramiltary group created by Hitler. No brainer, sorry!


Yes the swastika was once a harmless symbol in many cultures and religions, but after it was hijacked by the nazis, it will never recover from the evil connotations associated with it.  It's role in mainstream life is lost for ever. The acid test is whether any of the big mainstream advertisers would touch it with a bargepole (Nike, Cocacola, chocolate brands). Nope, they won't dream of it.

Had to laugh, as the hammer and sickle represents communist Russia and all its mass killings, starvation, ethnic cleansing and Gulags. You cannot whitewash history and give over a new leaf, as you would have to apply the same illogical stance for the Swastika. So by the same reasoning the hammer and sickle was hijacked by the Russian Communists, who murdered tens of millions. This is why I can never understand the poor apologist arguments that come from the left.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Name one.  Total odds you'll be wrong.  There have been communist parties, but there has never been a communist country.  They never get past the dictatorship stage.  A true communist country evolves into a workers commune, and has no leaders.

The ones calling themselves communist in the world today all have dictators, and bear no resemblance to the theory.

PMSL where again you are deciding and making up history.
So you declaring they cannot be communist because they have dictators, does not mean they are not communist. Its like one Christian group saying to another they are not Christian, when there is 42,000 denominations. Its the worst apologist argument that comes from the left claiming Communist states are not communist, when they are communist.

Well, actually I didn't say that they couldn't be communists because they have dictators, but more directly, they can't be communist if they don't structure themselves according to communist architecture.  Having a dictator is merely one anomoly.

You've heard of the saying: if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck...it's a duck?  Well, the reverse is true as well: if it doesn't look like a duck, doesn't talk like a duck, and doesn't walk like a duck...it's not a duck!  No country on earth has ever fulfilled the requisites characteristics of a communist country.

The reason I focus on the dictator is that is the one place in the evolution of the communist state where everyone goes wrong.  Russia...China...Cuba...everyone of them instated the transition vanguard, and then never transitioned.  The result: merely another dictatorship.  It's like, if you stopped a fetus from developing during gestation period, you would give birth to what you had when you stopped.  That's what happens to the evolution of all states striving to be communist: they stop at the vanguard transition.

You may call them communist, or Marxist, if you wish, but they are no more communist than that fetus is a normal baby.  The reason why they call themselves communist, of course, is that from the inside they still believe they are transitioning.  Like the second-coming of Christ, who has us still waiting for over 2,000-years, serious Christians still believe it's just around the corner. Likewise, communists still believe it's still coming.

Thorin wrote:Had to laugh, as the hammer and sickle represents communist Russia and all its mass killings, starvation, ethnic cleansing and Gulags. You cannot whitewash history and give over a new leaf, as you would have to apply the same illogical stance for the Swastika. So by the same reasoning the hammer and sickle was hijacked by the Russian Communists, who murdered tens of millions. This is why I can never understand the poor apologist arguments that come from the left.

Had to laugh because the hammer & sickle is originally French, representing the union of the industrial worker and the field worker.

But as Dostoevsky repeatedly tells you, the Russians believe the French are demigods...or almost. In any case, they followed them in everything...including borrowing their symbols.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:

PMSL where again you are deciding and making up history.
So you declaring they cannot be communist because they have dictators, does not mean they are not communist. Its like one Christian group saying to another they are not Christian, when there is 42,000 denominations. Its the worst apologist argument that comes from the left claiming Communist states are not communist, when they are communist.

Well, actually I didn't say that they couldn't be communists because they have dictators, but more directly, they can't be communist if they don't structure themselves according to communist architecture.  Having a dictator is merely one anomoly.

You can focus all you like Quill, as its gibberish.
Show me a consensus of Political scientists that agree with you

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Had to laugh, as the hammer and sickle represents communist Russia and all its mass killings, starvation, ethnic cleansing and Gulags. You cannot whitewash history and give over a new leaf, as you would have to apply the same illogical stance for the Swastika. So by the same reasoning the hammer and sickle was hijacked by the Russian Communists, who murdered tens of millions. This is why I can never understand the poor apologist arguments that come from the left.

Had to laugh because the hammer & sickle is originally French, representing the union of the industrial worker and the field worker.  

But as Dostoevsky repeatedly tells you, the Russians believe the French are demigods...or almost.  In any case, they followed them in everything...including borrowing their symbols.

Where did i say it was not French?
Odd

The point is the symbol had been hijacked by Communist Russia and thus has become a symbol of oppression, genocide etc

Thorin wrote:Show me a consensus of Political scientists that agree with you

The American Political Science Association (APSA).

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Show me a consensus of Political scientists that agree with you

The American Political Science Association (APSA).

So a picture is now your evidence?

Links to Political scientists please

Not the cover of a magazine

Thorin wrote:The point is the symbol had been hijacked by Communist Russia and thus has become a symbol of oppression, genocide etc

Nah...they gave it to the Catholics 30-years ago.

And when has the Catholic church used this Quill, other than receiving this gift. I would have thought due to their record in WW2. That the swastika was more appropriate. Due to their complicity in the holocaust?

Now it's being used over here...

So its still very much a symbol of oppression then Quill?

Thorin wrote:So its still very much a symbol of oppression then Quill?

Unless he's impeached.

Thorin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So what about all the other countries that have it?

All the other nations that have conquered and had empires, from the Arabs to the Chinese?

It seems only you see the Union jack as a symbol of oppression, mainly as you have an obession of hate against the Brits

I put that down to the fact you are part French and hate the fact the English have constantly kicked their butts in history

https://yournz.org/2015/05/08/changing-flags-of-the-commonwealth/

well there are only 3 others that still have it

Seriously please go back to school


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35890670

LOL

do some geography
all but the 4 nations in my post are states of territorial flags not Nations
you asked other countries

I can add another 6 STATE flags to the list in the link you posted

Jules wrote:The image & reputation of the nasty old swastika cannot be given a nice, new make over. There was a time when people were saying  that the clockwise symbol 卐 is the true nazi one, ... and the anticlockwise one 卍  should be used for everything else. Too late.  Whether it's 卐 or 卍  it's reputation can never be salvaged imo.

Sorry but not so in Asia Pacific, where the Nazi had little to no direct effect

Far more people have died by invaders and war monger fighting under a union jack than swastika
eve during ww2 more Indians died due to the union jack in the Bengali Holocaust than to the Nazis.

veya_victaous wrote:

Thorin wrote:



Seriously please go back to school


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35890670

LOL

do some geography
all but the 4 nations in my post are states of territorial flags not Nations
you asked other countries

I can add another 6 STATE flags to the list in the link you posted

So lets see how stupid Veya really is

Tell Veya, which ones are not countries in your list you posted?

Lets see Veya now run away

veya_victaous wrote:

Jules wrote:The image & reputation of the nasty old swastika cannot be given a nice, new make over. There was a time when people were saying  that the clockwise symbol 卐 is the true nazi one, ... and the anticlockwise one 卍  should be used for everything else. Too late.  Whether it's 卐 or 卍  it's reputation can never be salvaged imo.

Sorry but not so in Asia Pacific, where the Nazi had little to no direct effect

Far more people have died by invaders and war monger fighting under a union jack than swastika
eve during ww2 more Indians died due to the union jack in the Bengali Holocaust than to the Nazis.

Well there is yet more revisionist history

Are you going to use that website that claimed the Armenian Holocaust was due to the Aussie campaign in Gallipoli?

It seems also that veya does not understand what a famine is and what causes it?

Apparently now veya thinks the British can control the weather.