'Men should stay away from teaching children'.

Original Quill wrote:The reverse expectation exists on the other side, where society refuses to believe that women would prey on male students.  Debra LaFave, Mary Kay Letourneau, Shannon Best, Cara Dickey, and Deanna Higgins, come to mind.

What is worse, when such male-student/female-teacher sexual affairs are divulged, the charges are often dismissed.  As the State of Georgia said in Ms. LaFave's case, no jury would convict.

magica wrote:Ohhow horrible for this man. Men make great teachers, and so sad that this silly nasty girl could make this accusation and he has given up his vocation.

You know, many girls get a crush on their teachers, but it stays at that. Making allegations of rape is another level and very cruel, not only to this man but young girls who have been raped.

So wrong on all levels.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:The reverse expectation exists on the other side, where society refuses to believe that women would prey on male students.  Debra LaFave, Mary Kay Letourneau, Shannon Best, Cara Dickey, and Deanna Higgins, come to mind.

What is worse, when such male-student/female-teacher sexual affairs are divulged, the charges are often dismissed.  As the State of Georgia said in Ms. LaFave's case, no jury would convict.

That's not the case here Quill. In recent years a few female teachers have been found guilty of having inappropriate relationships with young male students.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

It sounds like both the department/ministry of education and the court system over there both let that teacher down  --  

Why did the case have to go before a jury --  didn't they conduct any sort of preliminary investigations,  at all  ?

Imagine how many subjects would virtually disappear from high schools without any male teachers --  most science and economics/commerce teachers are male, as are most woodwork/metalwork/tech' drawing/industrial design/technics teachers..

Over here, they have been actively encouraging men into primary school teaching since the 1980s, to help address gender imbalances that had built up during the 20th century.

magica wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

It sounds like both the department/ministry of education and the court system over there both let that teacher down  --  

Why did the case have to go before a jury --  didn't they conduct any sort of preliminary investigations,  at all  ?

Imagine how many subjects would virtually disappear from high schools without any male teachers --  most science and economics/commerce teachers are male, as are most woodwork/metalwork/tech' drawing/industrial design/technics teachers..

Over here, they have been actively encouraging men into primary school teaching since the 1980s, to help address gender imbalances that had built up during the 20th century.

Over here teachers or anyone accused are told to go on leave and then they do an enquiry.  Police are called and then statements taken.

Personally I think they should conduct this internally and if found anything that looks suss, then they call the police.

The reason they do it this way is to protect the child, but many girls make up stories, they think its funny and have no concept of the damage they are doing to the men or women involved.  Also this takes away from genuine girls who infact are abused. Would they bother to report it incase they feel they will be treated as lying.

Its a fine line Wolf.

Original Quill wrote:

magica wrote:

Over here teachers or anyone accused are told to go on leave and then they do an enquiry.  Police are called and then statements taken.

Personally I think they should conduct this internally and if found anything that looks suss, then they call the police.

The reason they do it this way is to protect the child, but many girls make up stories, they think its funny and have no concept of the damage they are doing to the men or women involved.  Also this takes away from genuine girls who infact are abused. Would they bother to report it incase they feel they will be treated as lying.

Its a fine line Wolf.

Yes, but the girls are only able to make up such stories because it goes with the flow of belief...men are snakes, snails and puppy dog tails, while women are sugar, spice and everything nice.  If your people didn't already believe that, such fictitious stories would not get the traction they do.

That's the same sentiment that our own southern Baptist, fundamentalists hold.  And it can't help but carry through in the punishment.  Women teachers who carry out such transgressions only get a slap on the wrist, and are permitted to carry on.  Debra LaFave was made to wear an ankle bracelet and was often seen shopping, while a man convicted in the Carolina's was sentenced to 22-years in prison for the same thing.

magica wrote:Sentences are silly. 22 yrs for sleeping with 17 yr old students. Yes she should be sacked, but 22 yrs, that's ridiculous. They're not boys.

30 for same thing.

Original Quill wrote:The one in Florida happened after (and in reaction to) the Debra LaFave case.  And, might I add, it was for 3-victims, and 37 counts of rape.  That's 7 per victim, and she'll get out in under 3-years.

Utah is a bit of a unique situation.  Again, three victims.  Utah has to deal with the FLDS, which still considers under-aged sex as legitimate, and so the authorities might be expected to over-react.

Still, two pretty extreme cases out of how many thousands?

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:The one in Florida happened after (and in reaction to) the Debra LaFave case.  And, might I add, it was for 3-victims, and 37 counts of rape.  That's 7 per victim, and she'll get out in under 3-years.

Utah is a bit of a unique situation.  Again, three victims.  Utah has to deal with the FLDS, which still considers under-aged sex as legitimate, and so the authorities might be expected to over-react.

Still, two pretty extreme cases out of how many thousands?

I don't know the statistics Quill...I just googled female teachers who have sex with male students...(or something similar) and they were the first two that came up, probably because they are so extreme.

Whilst I was following links I found one that said there had been over 900 cases of teachers(male and female)  being accused of having sex with pupils  in the UK over a 3 year period.....

magica wrote:17 isn't a child's age. Yes it's improper for teachers to sleep with students, but prison is harsh imo

magica wrote:I don't think teachers should sleep with pupils, but vulnerable at 17, I don't think so.

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:I don't think teachers should sleep with pupils, but vulnerable at 17, I don't think so.

Course they are. My younger grandson is 17....he thinks he knows it all, in reality he knows nothing yet, how can he...he hasn't lived.
Luckily, in the case of student/teacher relationships the law agrees with my point of view Mags.

magica wrote:

Syl wrote:

Course they are. My younger grandson is 17....he thinks he knows it all, in reality he knows nothing yet, how can he...he hasn't lived.
Luckily, in the case of student/teacher relationships the law agrees with my point of view Mags.

Bah

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:

Bah

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:17 isn't a child's age. Yes it's improper for teachers to sleep with students, but prison is harsh imo

I think it depends entirely on each individual case.
Teachers are in a position of trust for a start. The age limit is raised to 18 if its their student for a reason. For people who are not in the same position of trust the legal age of consent is 16.
There have been cases where teachers have groomed certain students for years before they actually have sex with them...they should be jailed.
So should teachers who take multiple youngsters to bed.
So should teachers who coerce kids with subtle threats or promises.

Seventeen year olds may not be kids, but they are still vulnerable.

Kato Harris wrote:"I would certainly advocate that no man qualify as a teacher. It is just not worth it. What is the lesson here? There is nothing to protect the male teacher."

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I think it depends entirely on each individual case.
Teachers are in a position of trust for a start. The age limit is raised to 18 if its their student for a reason. For people who are not in the same position of trust the legal age of consent is 16.
There have been cases where teachers have groomed certain students for years before they actually have sex with them...they should be jailed.
So should teachers who take multiple youngsters to bed.
So should teachers who coerce kids with subtle threats or promises.

Seventeen year olds may not be kids, but they are still vulnerable.

There is no "individual case" when you are talking about social belief systems.  That's what Mr. Harris was talking about.  He wasn't saying that this "individual case" man should stay out of teaching as a profession.  He was saying that all "individual case" males should stay out of teaching:

Kato Harris wrote:"I would certainly advocate that no man qualify as a teacher. It is just not worth it. What is the lesson here? There is nothing to protect the male teacher."

He's talking about a bias in the entire belief system.  I agree with him, and I think most males would know full well what he is saying.  It's not just low pay that keeps males away from lower education.  

The same bias is not in higher education, although teaching is the same mission.  Indeed I taught at university for a decade and a half.  You don't have under aged girls in university, and it's much more professional.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

There is no "individual case" when you are talking about social belief systems.  That's what Mr. Harris was talking about.  He wasn't saying that this "individual case" man should stay out of teaching as a profession.  He was saying that all "individual case" males should stay out of teaching:



He's talking about a bias in the entire belief system.  I agree with him, and I think most males would know full well what he is saying.  It's not just low pay that keeps males away from lower education.  

The same bias is not in higher education, although teaching is the same mission.  Indeed I taught at university for a decade and a half.  You don't have under aged girls in university, and it's much more professional.

Mr Harris obviously has reasons to think teaching is not a good career choice for men given his experience,  his case is sad, but certainly not typical.

I meant every case of a teacher who has had sex with a student is treated individually.
The huge difference in sentences given prove that.
I don't think male teachers are treated differently to female teachers by the courts, like I said earlier, we (the UK) seem to have more reported cases of female teachers in court recently.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Mr Harris obviously has reasons to think teaching is not a good career choice for men given his experience,  his case is sad, but certainly not typical.

I meant every case of a teacher who has had sex with a student is treated individually.
The huge difference in sentences given prove that.
I don't think male teachers are treated differently to female teachers by the courts, like I said earlier, we (the UK) seem to have more reported cases of female teachers in court recently.

But his remarks go to the situation where there is no, nor has there been any sexual contact between teacher and student.  There is only the false accusation.

His position is that male teachers will inevitably have the bias of presumption against them in that situation, and he's right.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

But his remarks go to the situation where there is no, nor has there been any sexual contact between teacher and student.  There is only the false accusation.

His position is that male teachers will inevitably have the bias of presumption against them in that situation, and he's right.

Quill, I believe if there is an accusation of a teacher acting inappropriately towards a student that teacher will be suspended whilst enquiries are made....whether that teacher be male of female.
I think that's the procedure here.

I don't have statistics, but I bet that more girls make accusations than boys do, so in that respect I can see that male teachers are at a disadvantage,
I know someone it happened to, it was incredibly traumatic but he was vindicated because the girl admitted she had lied before it got too serious....that cant detract from the suffering he endured whilst investigations were on going though obviously.
But its the same for both sexes....one of the hazards I guess of going into teaching, or ANY job where you are dealing with children or vulnerable people... but it can happen to both men and women and the chances of it happening must be slight, for either.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Quill, I believe if there is an accusation of a teacher acting inappropriately towards a student that teacher will be suspended whilst enquiries are made....whether that teacher be male of female.
I think that's the procedure here.

I don't have statistics, but I bet that more girls make accusations than boys do, so in that respect I can see that male teachers are at a disadvantage,
I know someone it happened to, it was incredibly traumatic but he was vindicated because the girl admitted she had lied before it got too serious....that cant detract from the suffering he endured whilst investigations were on going though obviously.
But its the same for both sexes....one of the hazards I guess of going into teaching, or ANY job where you are dealing with children or vulnerable people... but it can happen to both men and women and the chances of it happening must be slight, for either.

So you agree with Mr. Harris and me.  Good.  
No I don't agree....Mr Harris has good reason to think as he does though, which I have already acknowledged.

I'm not disagreeing about the paid vacation (suspension) that an accused gets.  It's the bias of presumption that figures into both the probable cause (raising the question), and the verdict (ultimate liability) aspects of the case.  Simply put, accusations against a male teacher are a lot more likely to be taken seriously than accusations against a female teacher.  But this is just emblematic of life in general.

I don't agree.
Do you have statistics that male teachers who are accused of sexual misconduct are treated differently to female teachers who are accused of the same?


The problem with grade school teaching is the context...the placing of male teachers in the proximity of under-aged young women.  The accusations come up more frequently, and are believed more readily, when the accused is male.  In our society women are expected to be the victims, men are expected to be culpable.  Therefore, it's a bad environment for male teachers.  Men should shy away from such employment.

There are definitely more female teachers than males, for many different reasons. I doubt the reason is that men are reluctant to enter teaching in school because they may be falsely accused of misconduct.
In fact more men are applying for teaching positions here....this chart is 5 years old but the numbers are increasing every year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-numbers-of-men-teaching-in-primary-schools-but-more-still-needed

From the article.....

"Latest data from the Teaching Agency (TA) shows more men are becoming primary school teachers. The number of male trainee primary teachers has increased by more than 50% in the last 4 years and has grown at 5 times the rate of women."

 

That's the point Mr. Harris makes, and I agree.

I have given my reasons why I don't.