More evidence that nazism was left wing

First topic message reminder :



"...Lenin is the greatest man, second only to Hitler, and that the difference between Communism and the Hitler faith is very slight..."

Joseph Goebbels

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Well because it gets boring trying to reason with an imbecile such as yourself who clearly has not got a clue what they are talking about on history

I suggest you actually read up on this before debating because its so boring having you keep coming out with rubbish

I mean you did not even know what the Pan Germanic League was.
A forerunner to the nazi's on Racial nationalism and liebestraum

You could always stop posting on this thread if you find it so boring ...

I enjoy showing up your ignorance here

Learn to read some books, it might help you

Then we can have a decent debate

Not have you google 5 minutes before hand on things you do not know about.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You could always stop posting on this thread if you find it so boring ...

I enjoy showing up your ignorance here

Learn to read some books, it might help you

Then we can have a decent debate

Not have you google 5 minutes before hand on things you do not know about.

In other words, you're trolling and you're only here to abuse other posters because that's what makes your day.

You have absolutely no idea about the politics of the time, you can only copy what others have said. I'll wait for someone who's actually interested in the subject rather than encourage your self-indulgence.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I enjoy showing up your ignorance here

Learn to read some books, it might help you

Then we can have a decent debate

Not have you google 5 minutes before hand on things you do not know about.

In other words, you're trolling and you're only here to abuse other posters because that's what makes your day.

You have absolutely no idea about the politics of the time, you can only copy what others have said. I'll wait for someone who's actually interested in the subject rather than encourage your self-indulgence.

PMSL

Do you think anyone takes a blind bit of notice of your immature and unfounded accusations?

Seriously?

I have proven you know next to nothing on this subject countless times and in the end had to post idiot guides for you and still after this, you are still coming out with rubbish

Now Tommy claimed Nazism is Far left

You claimed its not left wing

Thus you clearly must then think he is wrong and his stance from the start is wrong

And yet you cannot say he is mind numbingly stupid here

Priceless

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

In other words, you're trolling and you're only here to abuse other posters because that's what makes your day.

You have absolutely no idea about the politics of the time, you can only copy what others have said. I'll wait for someone who's actually interested in the subject rather than encourage your self-indulgence.

PMSL

Do you think anyone takes a blind bit of notice of your immature and unfounded accusations?

Seriously?

I have proven you know next to nothing on this subject countless times and in the end had to post idiot guides for you and still after this, you are still coming out with rubbish

Now Tommy claimed Nazism is Far left

You claimed its not left wing

Thus you clearly must then think he is wrong and his stance from the start is wrong

And yet you cannot say he is mind numbingly stupid here

Priceless

More evidence that you're trolling and only here to abuse other posters. You should pace yourself - it's still early and you need to have enough insults to last all day. Still, you generally use the same ones because of your lack of imagination anyway. I'm off out so you'll have to find someone else to troll. Be careful you don't wet yourself too often.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


PMSL

Do you think anyone takes a blind bit of notice of your immature and unfounded accusations?

Seriously?

I have proven you know next to nothing on this subject countless times and in the end had to post idiot guides for you and still after this, you are still coming out with rubbish

Now Tommy claimed Nazism is Far left

You claimed its not left wing

Thus you clearly must then think he is wrong and his stance from the start is wrong

And yet you cannot say he is mind numbingly stupid here

Priceless

More evidence that you're trolling and only here to abuse other posters. You should pace yourself - it's still early and you need to have enough insults to last all day. Still, you generally use the same ones because of your lack of imagination anyway. I'm off out so you'll have to find someone else to troll. Be careful you don't wet yourself too often.

Oh dear

So you admit to getting off on seeking out trolls?



Then ask me not to get wet?



Seriously is the visit to the GP over hallucinations with Trolls?

Raggs admits the Nazis weren't a left wing party, but simply cannot bring herhelf to publically declare here best forum mate is wrong is his statements. 
Just waiting for Tom to declare he thinks the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese and Elvis is living in Cleethorpes. 
Those will be difficult to agree with.

Angry Andy wrote:Raggs admits the Nazis weren't a left wing party, but simply cannot bring herhelf to publically declare here best forum mate is wrong is his statements. 
Just waiting for Tom to declare he thinks the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese and Elvis is living in Cleethorpes. 
Those will be difficult to agree with.

Its hilarious to be honest....

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Hitler didn't like the Communists for two main reasons. They were too international for him, and they had nothing much against Jews. He didn't dislike them for their "leftie" ideas. He saw them as an extension of the Russian revolution, and he had no time for that kind of thing - he wanted his own revolution.

Above all else, Hitler was a nationalist, and most events stemmed from that. Whether that makes him right wing is up for debate.

Nationalism is a RW political ideology. And as you say, the defining feature of Hitler's Nazism.

That's not to say no communist regime was ever nationalist. Many were. Leaders and regimes tend not be 100% RW or LW. Like Hitler used what can be called 'RW socialism' (which as discussed above is not the same as the socialism of either the communists or ths modern Left). Mao's China was certainly communist in the extreme, but it was as nationalistic. Overall though communism defined Mao's China, and it is decidely a tragedy of LW extremism. While Hitler's Germany had aspects of (RW) socialism, the ideology of the Nazis was defined by Nationalism and is a tragedy of RW extremism.

So are the Scottish Nationalist Party right wing? Nationalism can mean different things. If Hitler's nationalism had included Jews and other ethnic groups as German citizens, would you say it was right wing?

Scottish National Party. But they are nationalist too. Although the SNP are certain a LW party politically their main goal is nationalist. You could liken that to Hitler's RW socialism and say the SNP has a 'LW nationalism'.

Again nothing is black and white. The Nazis, with nationalism as their defining ideology, were as RW as can be. But they still had some ideas based in socialism and practiced a RW form of socialism.

Meanwhile the SNP are unmistakably LW. But their main goal is something typically defining of RW politics.

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


I posted up some pretty conclusive stuff about Musolini being a well known hard lefty...

What bit of that do you want to discuss?

You still haven't responded to my earlier questions so again, what is the point. You do not want a discussion, you wamt to post articles that impressed you and repeat what they say.

I WANT to discuss points, it's a shame you do not.

No... you posted up a load of sarcastic questions/statements... then you said left isn't big state/govt and big interference... only to launch straight into a question where you completely contradicted yourself in you asking why left wing govts are invariably big state/govt...!!!


I have posted up some pretty conclusive evidence that Musolini was a staunch lefty... and that other main nazis were lefty too...!


Which bits of this do you wish to discuss...?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


PMSL

Do you think anyone takes a blind bit of notice of your immature and unfounded accusations?

Seriously?

I have proven you know next to nothing on this subject countless times and in the end had to post idiot guides for you and still after this, you are still coming out with rubbish

Now Tommy claimed Nazism is Far left

You claimed its not left wing

Thus you clearly must then think he is wrong and his stance from the start is wrong

And yet you cannot say he is mind numbingly stupid here

Priceless

More evidence that you're trolling and only here to abuse other posters.You should pace yourself - it's still early and you need to have enough insults to last all day. Still, you generally use the same ones because of your lack of imagination anyway. I'm off out so you'll have to find someone else to troll. Be careful you don't wet yourself too often.

Most amusing!

Invariably is not defining.

I'll go back to the point I made there.

WHY do LW govts often invole a lot of regulation and high taxation?

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Once again, that measly-mouthed old turd Ferd Notrousers simply proves how ignorant he is to what an internet "troll" actually is...

Not only do we see Fred, Tommy, Ragg's, Horatio and their company of floptards constantly trolling this forum..

But those scum also regularly deflect by falsely labelling their various critics on here as "trolls" and "liars", without ever supplying any real world proof to back their demented claims.

you just broke my irony klaxon

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So are the Scottish Nationalist Party right wing? Nationalism can mean different things. If Hitler's nationalism had included Jews and other ethnic groups as German citizens, would you say it was right wing?

Scottish National Party. But they are nationalist too. Although the SNP are certain a LW party politically their main goal is nationalist. You could liken that to Hitler's RW socialism and say the SNP has a 'LW nationalism'.

Again nothing is black and white. The Nazis, with nationalism as their defining ideology, were as RW as can be. But they still had some ideas based in socialism and practiced a RW form of socialism.

Meanwhile the SNP are unmistakably LW. But their main goal is something typically defining of RW politics.

the end result of both ideologies is the same, the oppression of the people, the control of the media and finally the destruction of the country

You do have a point head.

WhaT THE FUCK, wHY has the Devils name been blocked?

nicko wrote:WhaT THE FUCK,   wHY has the Devils name been blocked?

Beats me...Veya taking revenge again because the Devil made a mildly sarcastic remark to his ickle fweind Wolfie about his abusive witchunt against trolls?

Talking of which..... here's a list of 12 recent consecutive posts from the said Wolfie, notable for its absence of a single intelligent or meaningful comment about the actual subject matter of a post:

1. Once again, that measly-mouthed old turd Ferd Notrousers simply proves how ignorant he is to what an internet "troll" actually is...

Not only do we see Fred, Tommy, Ragg's, Horatio and their company of floptards constantly trolling this forum..

But those scum also regularly deflect by falsely labelling their various critics on here as "trolls" and "liars", without ever supplying any real world proof to back their demented claims.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

2. Horatio is simply proving what a trolling old dog she is...

H/T only comes on here to stir up shite, trying to bring this forum down..

I wouldn't expect anything less from her, braindead and cold-hearted bitch that she is.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

3. And, I notice that some of Tommy's fellow trolls are lining up to offer their moral support to his cause...

Those trolls active on here at this time, do have a few things in common :
* They're English
* They all seem conservative
* They all have links to DYKnose and his cesspit..
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

4. Tommy, Raggamuffin...
And their collective backers/cheer squad..

Collectively, we should be referring to that gang as 'The Troll Squad'.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

5…Poor spineless old maggot Fred can't stand the truth...
I haven't seen the deranged old fool post any fair or honest comment in months..

All he keeps posting is lies ahainst veya, fallacious insults against me, and puerile attempts to connect various left wingers on here with others who aren't even posting here anymore.

Interesting to note that Fred and Nems only appear when nicko and/or Ragg's are losing the plot, and require some reinforcements !

And it's also telling when only a few people complain about the Flap brigade's ganging up on veya in his absence..
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
6.. Aww, you're no fun, mum !!!

Been hitting the whacky weed a bit too hard today, edds ???
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

7. Nicko, Nems and Fred 'tag teaming' their attacks on veya...

Now I only await two or three other flopettes to join in the hunt, and we'll have a 'full hand'.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

8. And Nems and Fred aren't ???

Those two fuckers are only on here to drag this forum down..
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
9. Fuck off, troll...

Come back when you actually nave something worthwhile to add, you braindead old fascist geranium..
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

10. YOU should follow your own advice, flicko...

You senile old fool..
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
11. Fuck off back to your Flap mates, Troll...

DYKface is calling you...
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
12. Tommy and Raggamuffin definitely have much, too much spare time on their hands !!!

They each could have probably written a 500_page novel in the time that they must have spent posting their incessant drivel on here..


Game of "Spot the Troll" anyone?

Angry Andy wrote:Raggs admits the Nazis weren't a left wing party, but simply cannot bring herhelf to publically declare here best forum mate is wrong is his statements. 
Just waiting for Tom to declare he thinks the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese and Elvis is living in Cleethorpes. 
Those will be difficult to agree with.

I haven't said that. what interests me is people's definition of "right wing" and "left wing". I don't think you can categorise most people that way really.

I think some posters are being overly simplistic in their definitions, and they're not understanding the politics of the time.

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So are the Scottish Nationalist Party right wing? Nationalism can mean different things. If Hitler's nationalism had included Jews and other ethnic groups as German citizens, would you say it was right wing?

Scottish National Party. But they are nationalist too. Although the SNP are certain a LW party politically their main goal is nationalist. You could liken that to Hitler's RW socialism and say the SNP has a 'LW nationalism'.

Again nothing is black and white. The Nazis, with nationalism as their defining ideology, were as RW as can be. But they still had some ideas based in socialism and practiced a RW form of socialism.

Meanwhile the SNP are unmistakably LW. But their main goal is something typically defining of RW politics.

You don't think that nationalism is necessarily a right wing ideology after all then? The SNP want self-determination for Scots, and Hitler wanted self-determination for Germans, so it could be said that Hitler's nationalism didn't necessarily make him right wing.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Scottish National Party. But they are nationalist too. Although the SNP are certain a LW party politically their main goal is nationalist. You could liken that to Hitler's RW socialism and say the SNP has a 'LW nationalism'.

Again nothing is black and white. The Nazis, with nationalism as their defining ideology, were as RW as can be. But they still had some ideas based in socialism and practiced a RW form of socialism.

Meanwhile the SNP are unmistakably LW. But their main goal is something typically defining of RW politics.

You don't think that nationalism is necessarily a right wing ideology after all then? The SNP want self-determination for Scots, and Hitler wanted self-determination for Germans, so it could be said that Hitler's nationalism didn't necessarily make him right wing.

This is why its pointless debating stupidity

How many different types of nationalism are there

What makes the Nazi Nationalism different here?

Take your time

You see, what interests me is why people assume the Nazis were right wing. Some people in this debate have acknowledged that they were at least socialist in some respects.

The only thing which seems to stand out is how the Nazis treated people who they considered were not "German". So does that mean that "right wing" simply means "racist"?

Raggamuffin wrote:You see, what interests me is why people assume the Nazis were right wing. Some people in this debate have acknowledged that they were at least socialist in some respects.

The only thing which seems to stand out is how the Nazis treated people who they considered were not "German". So does that mean that "right wing" simply means "racist"?

OMG how many times have people listed the reasons they were right wing?

This again proves why its pointless debating someone like you

Both you and Tommy and like brick walls, unable to understand information

nicko wrote:WhaT THE FUCK,   wHY has the Devils name been blocked?

I know, it's frustrating.  I've taken to calling him Dino, just to avoid the block.  No offense, Dean...it's the best I can do.

I also think it's important to establish how the voters judged him. After all, one could assume that people who vote for the Tories are "right wing", and those who vote Labour are "left wing", so the same assumption could be made about those who voted for the Nazi party. Were they right wing or left wing?

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

nicko wrote:WhaT THE FUCK,   wHY has the Devils name been blocked?

Beats me...Veya taking revenge again because the Devil made a mildly sarcastic remark to his ickle fweind Wolfie about his abusive witchunt against trolls?

Talking of which..... here's a list of 12 recent consecutive posts from the said Wolfie, notable for its absence of a single intelligent or meaningful comment about the actual subject matter of a post:

1.   Once again, that measly-mouthed old turd Ferd Notrousers simply proves how ignorant he is to what an internet "troll" actually is...

Not only do we see Fred, Tommy, Ragg's, Horatio and their company of floptards constantly trolling this forum..

But those scum also regularly deflect by falsely labelling their various critics on here as "trolls" and "liars", without ever supplying any real world proof to back their demented claims.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

2.    Horatio is simply proving what a trolling old dog she is...

H/T only comes on here to stir up shite, trying to bring this forum down..

I wouldn't expect anything less from her, braindead and cold-hearted bitch that she is.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

3.   And, I notice that some of Tommy's fellow trolls are lining up to offer their moral support to his cause...

Those trolls active on here at this time, do have a few things in common :
*  They're English
* They all seem conservative
* They all have links to DYKnose and his cesspit..
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

4.   Tommy, Raggamuffin...
And their collective backers/cheer squad..

Collectively, we should be referring to that gang as 'The Troll Squad'.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

5…Poor spineless old maggot Fred can't stand the truth...
I haven't seen the deranged old fool post any fair or honest comment in months..

All he keeps posting is lies ahainst veya, fallacious insults against me, and puerile attempts to connect various left wingers on here with others who aren't even posting here anymore.

 Interesting to note that Fred and Nems only appear when nicko and/or Ragg's are losing the plot, and require some reinforcements  !

And it's also telling when only a few people complain about the Flap brigade's ganging up on veya in his absence..
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
6..   Aww,  you're no fun,  mum  !!!

Been hitting the whacky weed a bit too hard today,  edds  ???
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

7.   Nicko, Nems and Fred 'tag teaming' their attacks on veya...

Now I only await two or three other flopettes to join in the hunt, and we'll have a 'full hand'.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

8.   And Nems and Fred aren't ???

Those two fuckers are only on here to drag this forum down..
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
9.     Fuck off, troll...

Come back when you actually nave something worthwhile to add, you braindead old fascist geranium..
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

10.   YOU should follow your own advice, flicko...

You senile old fool..
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
11.  Fuck off back to your Flap mates, Troll...

DYKface is calling you...
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
12.   Tommy and Raggamuffin definitely have much, too much spare time on their hands !!!

They each could have probably written a 500_page novel in the time that they must have spent posting their incessant drivel on here..


Game of "Spot the Troll" anyone?

I think your post speaks for itself really.

Raggamuffin wrote:I also think it's important to establish how the voters judged him. After all, one could assume that people who vote for the Tories are "right wing", and those who vote Labour are "left wing", so the same assumption could be made about those who voted for the Nazi party. Were they right wing or left wing?

Well that is easy, see how the German people reacted to the attempt on his life in 1944, when it was very clear Germany was losing the war.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I also think it's important to establish how the voters judged him. After all, one could assume that people who vote for the Tories are "right wing", and those who vote Labour are "left wing", so the same assumption could be made about those who voted for the Nazi party. Were they right wing or left wing?

Well that is easy, see how the German people reacted to the attempt on his life in 1944, when it was very clear Germany was losing the war.

There had been no one else to vote for for 11 years by then Didge. I'm talking about earlier on - before Hitler was Chancellor.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Well that is easy, see how the German people reacted to the attempt on his life in 1944, when it was very clear Germany was losing the war.

There had been no one else to vote for for 11 years by then Didge. I'm talking about earlier on - before Hitler was Chancellor.

Well I am trying to help you gauge how people supported Hitler even when Germany was losing the war.

Well as in any case where people are seduced by fear, they fall for hate.

This had been happening not just in Germany

There was a climate of fear

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There had been no one else to vote for for 11 years by then Didge. I'm talking about earlier on - before Hitler was Chancellor.

Well I am trying to help you gauge how people supported Hitler even when Germany was losing the war.

Well as in any case where people are seduced by fear, they fall for hate.

This had been happening not just in Germany

There was a climate of fear

I'm talking about the voters Didge - ie, the people who helped put him in power.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Well I am trying to help you gauge how people supported Hitler even when Germany was losing the war.

Well as in any case where people are seduced by fear, they fall for hate.

This had been happening not just in Germany

There was a climate of fear

I'm talking about the voters Didge - ie, the people who helped put him in power.

That is what I am talking about in my previous post

Hitler played on the fears of people based off the wall street crash

before then the Nazi's had only won 12 seats in the 1928 election

Then you have the Wall street crash in 1929, by the 1930 election they had won 107 seats

You want the major reason played off fear

There it is

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm talking about the voters Didge - ie, the people who helped put him in power.

That is what I am talking about in my previous post

Hitler played on the fears of people based off the wall street crash

before then the Nazi's had only won 12 seats in the 1928 election

Then you have the Wall street crash in 1929, by the 1930 election they had won 107 seats

You want the major reason played off fear

There it is

There were plenty of other parties for them to vote for, all of which promised all kinds of things. What drew them to the Nazi party?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


That is what I am talking about in my previous post

Hitler played on the fears of people based off the wall street crash

before then the Nazi's had only won 12 seats in the 1928 election

Then you have the Wall street crash in 1929, by the 1930 election they had won 107 seats

You want the major reason played off fear

There it is

There were plenty of other parties for them to vote for, all of which promised all kinds of things. What drew them to the Nazi party?

As I said fear

Jews were blamed for the wall street crash

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There were plenty of other parties for them to vote for, all of which promised all kinds of things. What drew them to the Nazi party?

As I said fear

Jews were blamed for the wall street crash

Why didn't fear draw them to the other parties?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:



As I said fear

Jews were blamed for the wall street crash

Why didn't fear draw them to the other parties?

You need to research nore into the propaganda more here

I am at work and don't have time to go into detail

Seriously there was many reasons why they fell for the Nazi's hate and fear

http://rexcurry.net/ussr-socialist-swastika-cccp-sssr.html


Interesting...

Tommy Monk wrote:http://rexcurry.net/ussr-socialist-swastika-cccp-sssr.html


Interesting...

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So are the Scottish Nationalist Party right wing? Nationalism can mean different things. If Hitler's nationalism had included Jews and other ethnic groups as German citizens, would you say it was right wing?

Scottish National Party. But they are nationalist too. Although the SNP are certain a LW party politically their main goal is nationalist. You could liken that to Hitler's RW socialism and say the SNP has a 'LW nationalism'.

Again nothing is black and white. The Nazis, with nationalism as their defining ideology, were as RW as can be. But they still had some ideas based in socialism and practiced a RW form of socialism.

Meanwhile the SNP are unmistakably LW. But their main goal is something typically defining of RW politics.

You don't think that nationalism is necessarily a right wing ideology after all then? The SNP want self-determination for Scots, and Hitler wanted self-determination for Germans, so it could be said that Hitler's nationalism didn't necessarily make him right wing.

I very clearly said nothing is black and white Raggs, read everything.

Socialism is LW. But the Nazis took aspects of socialism that worked for them and used what is known as RW socialism. Indistinguishable from the socialism of Corbyn and Sanders.

Nationalism is RW. But the SNP and Mao's communists (2 very different parties) use nationalism too. That doesn't make those parties RW though.

Again nothing is black and white. You'd struggle to find a party that only followed 100% pure RW or LW politics.

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You don't think that nationalism is necessarily a right wing ideology after all then? The SNP want self-determination for Scots, and Hitler wanted self-determination for Germans, so it could be said that Hitler's nationalism didn't necessarily make him right wing.

I very clearly said nothing is black and white Raggs, read everything.

Socialism is LW. But the Nazis took aspects of socialism that worked for them and used what is known as RW socialism. Indistinguishable from the socialism of Corbyn and Sanders.

Nationalism is RW. But the SNP and Mao's communists (2 very different parties) use nationalism too. That doesn't make those parties RW though.

Again nothing is black and white. You'd struggle to find a party that only followed 100% pure RW or LW politics.

You said nationalism was a right wing ideology, and now it seems you're saying it can be right wing or left wing ideology. If there's such a thing as right wing socialism, then socialism isn't necessarily left wing.

What's becoming increasingly clear is that it's very difficult to define right wing and left wing, which I think is the point of this thread.

I think the problem arises from trying to define political ideology by the parties that adopt them (or forms of them).

When we say KW nationalism and RW socialism we use the RW/LW tags to differentiate them to tradional socialism and nationalism.

Nationalism isn't LW just because the SNP have a single nationalist aspiration.

Parties aren't totally representitive of their adopted political ideologies.

But socialism is rooted in LW principles and nationalism in RW.

I asked tommy earlier if he could tell me why LW/socialist govts often used high taxes on the rich and heavy regulation. He couldn't answer me. I'd appreciate of you could.

Eilzel wrote:I think the problem arises from trying to define political ideology by the parties that adopt them (or forms of them).

When we say KW nationalism and RW socialism we use the RW/LW tags to differentiate them to tradional socialism and nationalism.

Nationalism isn't LW just because the SNP have a single nationalist aspiration.

Parties aren't totally representitive of their adopted political ideologies.

But socialism is rooted in LW principles and nationalism in RW.

I asked tommy earlier if he could tell me why LW/socialist govts often used high taxes on the rich and heavy regulation. He couldn't answer me. I'd appreciate of you could.

Why isn't nationalism left wing Les? It seems strange to me that the SNPs nationalism should be an exception just because they're not Nazis. Hitler clearly said that his aim was self-determination for the German people, like the SNPs want self-determination for the Scottish people.

The difference of course is that the Scots wouldn't persecute anyone they thought was not ethnically "Scottish". However, that also defines a right wing party as being racist does it not? That's also unfair because it implies that anyone who votes Tory here must be racist by definition.

As I've said before, the primary reason for labelling the Nazis as right wing is their treatment of Jews and other people they didn't count as "German". Is that really what it's all about?

Re your question about tax and heavy regulation, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that one for now.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:I think the problem arises from trying to define political ideology by the parties that adopt them (or forms of them).

When we say KW nationalism and RW socialism we use the RW/LW tags to differentiate them to tradional socialism and nationalism.

Nationalism isn't LW just because the SNP have a single nationalist aspiration.

Parties aren't totally representitive of their adopted political ideologies.

But socialism is rooted in LW principles and nationalism in RW.

I asked tommy earlier if he could tell me why LW/socialist govts often used high taxes on the rich and heavy regulation. He couldn't answer me. I'd appreciate of you could.

As I've said before, the primary reason for labelling the Nazis as right wing is their treatment of Jews and other people they didn't count as "German". Is that really what it's all about?

Incorrect again and it shows again you have not read the many aspects that make Nazism right wing

Raggamuffin wrote:Re your question about tax and heavy regulation, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that one for now.

But this is crucial to establishing the core of RW and LW ideologies.

Again, nationalism IS RW even if adopted by the SNP. N

Nationalism puts nation and nationality above all else, and so is NOT in keeping with real LW (or even real socialist) ideology. LW ideology is about treating all as equals regardless of class, wealth, differences and nationalities. Which makes REAL socialism incompatible with nationalism.

Nazism did NOT care about treating people equally. The rich stayed rich and even profitted big time, minorities were persecuted, equal opportunities did not exist, nationalist invasions occured. None of that fits with socialism.

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Re your question about tax and heavy regulation, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that one for now.

But this is crucial to establishing the core of RW and LW ideologies.

Again, nationalism IS RW even if adopted by the SNP. N

Nationalism puts nation and nationality above all else, and so is NOT in keeping with real LW (or even real socialist) ideology. LW ideology is about treating all as equals regardless of class, wealth, differences and nationalities. Which makes REAL socialism incompatible with nationalism.

Nazism did NOT care about treating people equally. The rich stayed rich and even profitted big time, minorities were persecuted, equal opportunities did not exist, nationalist invasions occured. None of that fits with socialism.

The SNP seem to be putting nation above all else, at least at the moment, so does that not make them right wing?

I think the Nazis did care about treating people equally, as long as they were "German". That is the difference IMO, and it's why I think they're labelled as right wing. As for the left wing treating everyone equally, do they really? If they want to tax richer people a higher percentage than others, they're not treating them the same.

Did the Nazis really want people to profit from big business?

Anyway, this is very interesting but I have to go out. Perhaps we could discuss the economic and social policies later?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

But this is crucial to establishing the core of RW and LW ideologies.

Again, nationalism IS RW even if adopted by the SNP. N

Nationalism puts nation and nationality above all else, and so is NOT in keeping with real LW (or even real socialist) ideology. LW ideology is about treating all as equals regardless of class, wealth, differences and nationalities. Which makes REAL socialism incompatible with nationalism.

Nazism did NOT care about treating people equally. The rich stayed rich and even profitted big time, minorities were persecuted, equal opportunities did not exist, nationalist invasions occured. None of that fits with socialism.

The SNP seem to be putting nation above all else, at least at the moment, so does that not make them right wing?

I think the Nazis did care about treating people equally, as long as they were "German". That is the difference IMO, and it's why I think they're labelled as right wing. As for the left wing treating everyone equally, do they really? If they want to tax richer people more than others, they're not treating them the same.

Did the Nazis really want people to profit from big business?

That is not treating people equally but selectively. He also never treated Germans equally.
Tax is based proportionally based fairly on what people can afford to the state. Both right wing and left have their own views on what this proportion should be.
Many of the business vastly profited under the Nazi's.
What gets me is you ignore that the Nazis championed individualism over collectivism, Eugenics, over freedom of reproduction and this was not just with the disabled for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_Bastard

Then we have Merit over equality, Gun ownership over gun control, Capitalism over Marxism, Militarism over pacifism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, pragmatism over principle, nationalism over internationalism, Competition over cooperation etc

The list is endless, but again you are only looking for a very narrow looking glass over what you consider left and right wing.

Also the SNP are not truly nationalistic, as they want to join the EU.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Re your question about tax and heavy regulation, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that one for now.

But this is crucial to establishing the core of RW and LW ideologies.

Again, nationalism IS RW even if adopted by the SNP. N

Nationalism puts nation and nationality above all else, and so is NOT in keeping with real LW (or even real socialist) ideology. LW ideology is about treating all as equals regardless of class, wealth, differences and nationalities. Which makes REAL socialism incompatible with nationalism.

Nazism did NOT care about treating people equally. The rich stayed rich and even profitted big time, minorities were persecuted, equal opportunities did not exist, nationalist invasions occured. None of that fits with socialism.

The SNP seem to be putting nation above all else, at least at the moment, so does that not make them right wing?

I think the Nazis did care about treating people equally, as long as they were "German". That is the difference IMO, and it's why I think they're labelled as right wing. As for the left wing treating everyone equally, do they really? If they want to tax richer people a higher percentage than others, they're not treating them the same.

Did the Nazis really want people to profit from big business?

Again, this is why the REASON for taxing the rich higher and having regulations is important. If you can't understand that then defing the key differences that make an ideology Left or Right is impossible.

The Nazis are labelled RW because of their nationalism, which went as far as declaring nationalist wars, a slight factor you seem to be forgetting. The were also major social conservatives- encouraging women's roles as simple house wives, persecuting gays and gypsies, and being massively xenophobic as well as anti-Semitic. They even persecuted the disabled. All of that makes them as opposed to equality as it is possible to be.

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The SNP seem to be putting nation above all else, at least at the moment, so does that not make them right wing?

I think the Nazis did care about treating people equally, as long as they were "German". That is the difference IMO, and it's why I think they're labelled as right wing. As for the left wing treating everyone equally, do they really? If they want to tax richer people a higher percentage than others, they're not treating them the same.

Did the Nazis really want people to profit from big business?

Again, this is why the REASON for taxing the rich higher and having regulations is important. If you can't understand that then defing the key differences that make an ideology Left or Right is impossible.

The Nazis are labelled RW because of their nationalism, which went as far as declaring nationalist wars, a slight factor you seem to be forgetting. The were also major social conservatives- encouraging women's roles as simple house wives, persecuting gays and gypsies, and being massively xenophobic as well as anti-Semitic. They even persecuted the disabled. All of that makes them as opposed to equality as it is possible to be.

The problem with "taxing the rich higher" in these days of electronic banking and highly qualified (and expensive!) accountants and tax lawyers is that the really megarich, who can both afford and deserve to pay more, can so easily and legally keep ahead of HMRC by exploiting obscure loopholes and shifting huge amounts of cash around the globe at the click of a button.

The ones who do end up being soaked are those earning between the 40 and 45  per cent higher rate bands - small to medium businessmen, doctors, senior nurses, teachers, police officers and even train and tube drivers, the very people we desperately need to keep yet whose skills are greatly sought after by less tax avaricious countries.

The prime targets should be the major companies who are earning huge profits in the UK, yet who pay little or even sometimes nothing in tax.

I appreciate the argument that they might possibly move business activities to lower tax countries, and this is, I accept, a major consideration. But recent revelations have proved that while literally stalking and harassing people in order to recoup a few thousand quid, HMRC are making sweetheart deals that let the really big fish off the hook.

I fully agree on targetting major companies as a priority and we should be closing tax loopholes. You are starting to sound like a red blooded socialist yourself there Lord Ed

Facebook and Google are a case in point, Millions in profits, very little to the Tax man !