Is this rape??

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:52 pm

It may not be a classic case of rape....but I think he is still guilty of forcing himself on the woman after she has told him to stop...that to me is rape.

"A man who was jailed for rape after he allegedly continued having sex with a woman after his condom broke and she said stop has been found not guilty.
A jury had found Simon Bragg, 32, guilty at his original trial and he had already served a three-year sentence when the conviction was overturned on appeal last year."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-jailed-rape-after-continuing-9791087

by magica Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:03 pm

It's a hard one, pardon the pun lol. If he was already at it, I would think it's hard to stop. Giving she told him to stop, makes it rape in the eyes of the law.

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:06 pm

He has been acquitted now though....so in the eyes of the law he didn't rape her.

by magica Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:10 pm

Ahh well tbh I think that's right. Let's be honest how many would report him for this.

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:16 pm

magica wrote:Ahh well tbh I think that's right. Let's be honest how many would report him for this.

That's not the point though Mags....and many women don't report rape for a variety of reasons.
What if the woman had become pregnant? What if she had caught an std? What if the woman was having a heart attack mid shag....would he still be entitled to carry on regardless?

Its rape in my opinion.....I don't go along with this "Ive started so I'll finish" mentality.

by magica Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:23 pm

Well she was willing, so not really rape. Yes it should've stopped. Then again she couldn't really say it was rape. Where does rape begin and common sense take over. Did she say you raped me I'm going to the police. What happens then if a woman doesn't stop is that rape. I'm sure he would've stopped had she had heart attack. I'm not justifying him you know how much feeling I have on rape, but I can't see this here.

by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:24 pm

I'd have been furious with him for doing that. Not what I'd call rape, but still out of order.

by magica Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:25 pm

Yes Hora, angry, but not enough to cry rape and go to police.

by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:31 pm

It was consensual sex to start with... and consensual sex during...

And if not for the alleged 'condom malfunction' then would have been a completely consensual 'happy ending' too!

This was consensual sex with maybe a misunderstanding at the finishing line... not rape.

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:32 pm

I call it rape.
Yes she was willing, but something changed half way through....so she had a right to ask/tell him to stop, and he had a duty to her to stop.

Men are not machines...they do actually have will power and control....and if they don't, they should face the consequences.

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It was consensual sex to start with... and consensual sex during...

And if not for the alleged 'condom malfunction' then would have been a completely consensual 'happy ending' too!

This was consensual sex with maybe a misunderstanding at the finishing line... not rape.

A misunderstanding that could have had dire consequences....for both of them.
I wonder if he would had supported a baby had she gotten pregnant.

by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:35 pm

It was consensual... he is not a rapist.

by Syl Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:52 pm

he is.

by Tommy Monk Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:04 pm

They were engaged in consensual sex.

Say for example... during the extremely physical close contact and lustfuly intimate consensual activity etc... in the heat of the moment etc... she had grabbed him hard with her hands in a way that left scratch/nail marks on his back or elsewhere etc... could he then go to police and say she had sexually assaulted him causing 'ABH' (actual bodily harm) etc?

by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:14 pm

did they realise the condom broke before they finished?

by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:16 pm

Syl wrote:he is.

if he was acquitted on appeal then he's not any more.

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:19 pm

Its rape, when she says to stop.

How is it consent, if he tried to stick his dick up her arse for example?

If she says, stop, its for a reason, which means you should stop.

She never changed her mind, the breaking of the condom did. Where she has every right then to cease based off the risk of pregnancy. It ceased to be safe sex, and became unsafe. All of which is not even relevant. If a woman says to stop, whilst having sex. Means the man should stop. Its not his body and she has every right to change her mind.

Its rape

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:21 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:he is.
if he was acquitted on appeal then he's not any more.

You never read the link did you?

In November last year Mr Bragg appealed against his conviction and had it overturned so that a retrial could take place.
That retrial was abandoned on January 23 when the Crown Prosecution Service could offer no evidence.

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:25 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:did they realise the condom broke before they finished?

What relevance would they have based on if true she asked him to stop and he failed to do so?

Forget the story here.

Do you think its acceptable to then force yourself onto a woman, whilst during sex, after she has asked you to stop?

The moment she says this and the male refuses to stop, he is committing rape

by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:36 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:did they realise the condom broke before they finished?

What relevance would they have based on if true she asked him to stop and he failed to do so?

Forget the story here.

Do you think its acceptable to then force yourself onto a woman, whilst during sex, after she has asked you to stop?

The moment she says this and the male refuses to stop, he is committing rape

well she cant tell him to stop if she didn't know the condom had broken until they finished. wouldn't that be obvious, after all the sex was consensual wasn't it?

by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:38 pm

Thorin wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
if he was acquitted on appeal then he's not any more.

You never read the link did you?

In November last year Mr Bragg appealed against his conviction and had it overturned so that a retrial could take place.
That retrial was abandoned on January 23 when the Crown Prosecution Service could offer no evidence.

no I didn't read the the article, I am responding to what is written here.
So he was acquitted at his retiral. Any more hairs you want to split.

by Victorismyhero Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:46 pm

its in out in out and shake it all about........

by Ben Reilly Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:46 pm

Definitely rape unless you don't believe a person has the right to withdraw consent.

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:52 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

What relevance would they have based on if true she asked him to stop and he failed to do so?

Forget the story here.

Do you think its acceptable to then force yourself onto a woman, whilst during sex, after she has asked you to stop?

The moment she says this and the male refuses to stop, he is committing rape
well she cant tell him to stop if she didn't know the condom had broken until they finished. wouldn't that be obvious, after all the sex was consensual wasn't it?

Irrelevant..

The condom is irrelevant

If she says to stop, then consent has been denied.

Consent to have sex, ceases when it becomes uncomfortable or painful for the receiving partner.

That means the person should stop

If the man starts to whip her backside whilst having sex and she says stop it hurts and he continues. Is that not then assault and rape?

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:53 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

You never read the link did you?

In November last year Mr Bragg appealed against his conviction and had it overturned so that a retrial could take place.
That retrial was abandoned on January 23 when the Crown Prosecution Service could offer no evidence.
no I didn't read the the article, I am responding to what is written here.
So he was acquitted at his retiral. Any more hairs you want to split.

What it shows is the poor uphill struggle women and men face as victims of rape, being believed.

by eddie Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:14 pm

If she asked him to stop and he didn't then it isn't consensual.

by Guest Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:17 pm

eddie wrote:If she asked him to stop and he didn't then it isn't consensual.

Exactly Eddie.

Stop means stop and means there no longer is consent.

by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:19 pm

eddie wrote:If she asked him to stop and he didn't then it isn't consensual.

Yes, he should have respected that.

by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:20 pm

Lord Foul wrote:its in out in out and shake it all about........

And that IS what the hokey cokey is all about.

by Original Quill Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It was consensual... he is not a rapist.

But it wasn't consensual. If they are going at it, and either one of them (not just the woman) says STOP, consent is withdrawn. No mean no.

Ironically, this happened to a lawyer friend of mine (not the broken rubber, but worse...she was having guilt pangs about her other boyfriend, with whom she had broken it off).

My friend stopped...and from a professional standpoint, we both agreed that was the right thing to do. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.

by nicko Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:25 am

You can't stop when your nearing the end, [as I recall].

Anyway---- A standing cock has no conscious !

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:39 am

eddie wrote:If she asked him to stop and he didn't then it isn't consensual.

does it say when she discovered the condom broke?
isnt that why she wanted to stop. If it was after the fact then it cant be rape. if she said stop during then it was .

However the prosecution didn't offer any evidence according to what was said here then it wasn't.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:41 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
eddie wrote:If she asked him to stop and he didn't then it isn't consensual.

Yes, he should have respected that.

whendid she establish that the condom broke. Surely that is an important point if that is why she wanted to stop.
usually you discover that after the fact not during.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:43 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:It was consensual... he is not a rapist.

But it wasn't consensual. If they are going at it, and either one of them (not just the woman) says STOP, consent is withdrawn. No mean no.

Ironically, this happened to a lawyer friend of mine (not the broken rubber, but worse...she was having guilt pangs about her other boyfriend, with whom she had broken it off).

My friend stopped...and from a professional standpoint, we both agreed that was the right thing to do. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.

it was said here that she said stop becasue the condom broke, but when did it break is surely a relevant point. If she discovered after the act then surely she could not have said no during for that reason.

by Eilzel Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:14 pm

Dean, the man or both of them will know if/when the condom broke even before they were finished. The man should certainly feel the difference, but the woman can know too. When condoms split they tend to do so all the way.

In this particular case she probably either felt it go or he alerted her to the fact (thinking she probably wouldn't mind at that point).

She clearly knew anyway. And he has a responsibilty to pull out if she makes it clear she does not want to go ahead.

by Syl Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:10 pm

Thank goodness most people realise what rape actually IS....last night when I logged off I was beginning to have my doubts.

He is a rapist AND a selfish bastard, I hope the woman had no life changing ill effects from his actions.
He served three years, he got off lightly, lets hope he has learned from his mistake.

by Syl Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:16 pm

Thorin wrote:Its rape, when she says to stop.

How is it consent, if he tried to stick his dick up her arse for example?

If she says, stop, its for a reason, which means you should stop.

She never changed her mind, the breaking of the condom did. Where she has every right then to cease based off the risk of pregnancy. It ceased to be safe sex, and became unsafe. All of which is not even relevant. If a woman says to stop, whilst having sex. Means the man should stop. Its not his body and she has every right to change her mind.

Its rape

Absolutely right Thor.
She had valid reasons to stop.....and like you say even if she just changed her mind it's her right to do so.

by Syl Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:21 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Thorin wrote:

What relevance would they have based on if true she asked him to stop and he failed to do so?

Forget the story here.

Do you think its acceptable to then force yourself onto a woman, whilst during sex, after she has asked you to stop?

The moment she says this and the male refuses to stop, he is committing rape
well she cant tell him to stop if she didn't know the condom had broken until they finished. wouldn't that be obvious, after all the sex was consensual wasn't it?

Obviously she did know before they finished, and so did he.
Had they finished the accusation, the trial and his subsequent jail sentence would be pointless.

by Syl Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:25 pm

nicko wrote:You can't stop when your nearing the end, [as I recall].

Anyway---- A standing cock has no conscious !

And any man who believes that is missing a brain as well as a conscience. Rolling Eyes

by Original Quill Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:33 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But it wasn't consensual. If they are going at it, and either one of them (not just the woman) says STOP, consent is withdrawn. No mean no.

Ironically, this happened to a lawyer friend of mine (not the broken rubber, but worse...she was having guilt pangs about her other boyfriend, with whom she had broken it off).

My friend stopped...and from a professional standpoint, we both agreed that was the right thing to do. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.
it was said here that she said stop becasue the condom broke, but when did it break is surely a relevant point. If she discovered after the act then surely she could not have said no during for that reason.

Of course she could. She's entitled to say no, or stop, at any time, for any reason. Consent implies that one can withhold, or withdraw consent at any time.

Why wouldn't it? I hope you are not thinking of the old saw...men cannot stop, once started.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:33 pm

Syl wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
well she cant tell him to stop if she didn't know the condom had broken until they finished. wouldn't that be obvious, after all the sex was consensual wasn't it?

Obviously she did know before they finished, and so did he.
Had they finished the accusation, the trial and his subsequent jail sentence would be pointless.

well when it has happened to me in the past I have not realised until after the deed has been over and nor has my partner.

was it stated in the article that they found out during the act. the sex was consensual to start with wasn't it. It sounds like they were both willing partners.

I think when they found out the condom split would be very pertinent.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
it was said here that she said stop becasue the condom broke, but when did it break is surely a relevant point. If she discovered after the act then surely she could not have said no during for that reason.

Of course she could. She's entitled to say no, or stop, at any time, for any reason. Consent implies that one can withhold, or withdraw consent at any time.

Why wouldn't it? I hope you are not thinking of the old saw...men cannot stop, once started.

want to reconsider what you said there.
My point was if she didn't know the condom was broke until after the act had finished how could she say stop because the condoms broke during? the whole crux of this case is apparently she wanted to stop becasue the condom broke?

Of course she is entitled to say stop at anytime. But that was not was being said was it. Maybe it was, I still haven't read the article, I am trying to get one of you lot to give your impressions on the case not rape in general.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Eilzel wrote:Dean, the man or both of them will know if/when the condom broke even before they were finished. The man should certainly feel the difference, but the woman can know too. When condoms split they tend to do so all the way.

In this particular case she probably either felt it go or he alerted her to the fact (thinking she probably wouldn't mind at that point).

She clearly knew anyway. And he has a responsibilty to pull out if she makes it clear she does not want to go ahead.

it might be the case when you are wearing one the thickness of a truck tyre, but I can assure you on the occasions it has happened to me we did not know until afterwards. They are not called featherlite for nothing.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:40 pm

Eilzel wrote:Dean, the man or both of them will know if/when the condom broke even before they were finished. The man should certainly feel the difference, but the woman can know too. When condoms split they tend to do so all the way.

In this particular case she probably either felt it go or he alerted her to the fact (thinking she probably wouldn't mind at that point).

She clearly knew anyway. And he has a responsibilty to pull out if she makes it clear she does not want to go ahead.

I am intrigued to know how you or anyone knows what this couple felt unless it was stated in the article.

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:41 pm

Syl wrote:Thank goodness most people realise what rape actually IS....last night when I logged off I was beginning to have my doubts.

He is a rapist AND a selfish bastard, I hope the woman had no life changing ill effects from his actions.
He served three years, he got off lightly, lets hope he has learned from his mistake.

although no evidence was presented according to what has been reported here when he was acquitted. What changed between the first trial and the second?

by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:48 pm

ok as no one here seems capable of explaining the case I did read the article. It seems the prosecutor claimed the condom split.

Of course being in the mirror it is very light on detail so hard to establish what went on.
what is clear is that after appeal and the prosecution offering no evidence he was acquitted.

Perhaps instead of arguing about rape in general people had stuck to the limited facts of this actual case things might have moved on quicker.

Does anyone have an article from a proper paper that will fill in the gaps?

by Eilzel Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:57 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Dean, the man or both of them will know if/when the condom broke even before they were finished. The man should certainly feel the difference, but the woman can know too. When condoms split they tend to do so all the way.

In this particular case she probably either felt it go or he alerted her to the fact (thinking she probably wouldn't mind at that point).

She clearly knew anyway. And he has a responsibilty to pull out if she makes it clear she does not want to go ahead.
I am intrigued to know how you or anyone knows what this couple felt unless it was stated in the article.

Based solely on the article we have, and no suggestion otherwise, it is a fair assumption that they knew the condom had split.

by Original Quill Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:57 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Of course she could. She's entitled to say no, or stop, at any time, for any reason. Consent implies that one can withhold, or withdraw consent at any time.

Why wouldn't it? I hope you are not thinking of the old saw...men cannot stop, once started.
want to reconsider what you said there.
My point was if she didn't know the condom was broke until after the act had finished how could she say stop because the condoms broke during? the whole crux of this case is apparently she wanted to stop becasue the condom broke?

Of course she is entitled to say stop at anytime. But that was not was being said was it. Maybe it was, I still haven't read the article, I am trying to get one of you lot to give your impressions on the case not rape in general.

But I'm saying it now. The condom is irrelevant to the whole discussion. End of...

by Syl Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:11 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Syl wrote:

Obviously she did know before they finished, and so did he.
Had they finished the accusation, the trial and his subsequent jail sentence would be pointless.
well when it has happened to me in the past I have not realised until after the deed has been over and nor has my partner.

was it stated in the article that they found out during the act. the sex was consensual to start with wasn't it. It sounds like they were both willing partners.

I think when they found out the condom split would be very pertinent.

Had the couple found out the condom was split AFTER the event I don't think any man would be found guilty of rape.
If a woman agrees to sex then cries rape afterwards it's obviously she who is in the wrong.

So.....the details given from the first trial is that the condom split DURING.....the woman knew this, asked him to stop, he carried on.
So it then became rape when he carried on having sex without the womans consent.

by Original Quill Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:14 pm

Syl wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
well when it has happened to me in the past I have not realised until after the deed has been over and nor has my partner.

was it stated in the article that they found out during the act. the sex was consensual to start with wasn't it. It sounds like they were both willing partners.

I think when they found out the condom split would be very pertinent.

Had the couple found out the condom was split AFTER the event I don't think any man would be found guilty of rape.
If a woman agrees to sex then cries rape afterwards it's obviously she who is in the wrong.

Not if she said no. The condom is irrelevant.

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