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Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:06 am
First topic message reminder :
On a fairly consistent basis people in the West embrace values abroad that they shun at home.
This is particularly odd and contradictory among those who self-identify as “Left” and “liberal” and then embrace movements, leaders, ideologies and religions that are manifestly illiberal and right- wing extremist abroad. For instance American philosopher and gender theorist Judith Butler said in 2006 that “understanding Hamas [and] Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the left, that are part of the global left, is extremely important.
That contradictory view is emblematic of a phenomenon spanning everything from Michel Foucault’s embrace of the Islamic Revolution in Iran to those “anti-war” activists in the UK who support Syrian President Bashar Assad and Russia’s bombing of civilians.
Why do people who support women’s rights in the US or France excuse the Iranian regime? Why do those who dislike militarism view as romantic people in uniform in Pakistan or Moscow?
Why do those who dislike US presidential candidate Donald Trump find bombastic populists like Venezuala’s Hugo Chavez so endearing?
Why is Assad’s war on terror so good, but George W. Bush’s so bad?
Large numbers of commentators and intellectuals associated with the “Left” in the West have, for over 100 years, continually allied themselves with totalitarian, extremist, thuggish, populist, militarist, extreme right-wing, religious fanatical regimes and movements abroad.
Whether it was George Bernard Shaw touring and apologizing for Stalin’s Russia, or Noam Chomsky claiming refugees from the Cambodian genocide were “unreliable” and that “massacre reports were false,” there is a long tradition of mitigating the kinds of crimes abroad people would never excuse at home.
To understand this phenomenon we have to unpack what it means to be “left-wing” in the West. To be on the Left is to be good, to be progressive, to be for women’s rights, gay rights, environmentalism, social justice, worker’s rights, and to be against racism and discrimination, perhaps against nuclear energy, against war.
It didn’t always mean that.
Before the defeat of Nazism, to be left-wing was largely an ideological choice to be part of a “global Left” of various movements.
Although ostensibly for workers’ rights, right- and left-wing populist movements of the 1920s were essentially the same in their totalitarian fantasies. Since being “Left” was self-defined, it’s not clear what made the Khmer Rouge and its genocide any more “left-wing” than the Hutu genociders in Rwanda.
What made Arab nationalists of one variety, such as Palestinians, “left-wing” whereas those of another variety, such as the Lebanese Forces, “right-wing”?
Loyalty to these left-wing movements was largely ideological, if not contradictory. So Stalin was supported simply because some left-wingers in the West accepted the Soviet Communist Party’s line; others liked comrade Trotsky and therefore did not like Stalin. Not because they were liberals, but because the party told them so.
In those days the ideological Left wanted the West to look like the Soviet Union: a one-party state they would control.
When we get to the 1990s and the fall of Communism, the need to be loyal to a declining and dying official Left abroad was eroded.
But what to do about the void inside, the need to be loyal to fanatical, violent, extremist movements abroad? Where was the romance of “revolution,” as they called the genocide in Cambodia, the revolution of the “peasants” and “masses” and the lioniz- ing of mass murder in the name of populism?
To understand the blind and contradictory loyalty of people who call themselves “progressive” but embrace manifestly reactionary policies abroad is to understand that humans need to fill the void of rage within.
For the self-declared “Right” in the West that void is filled through home-grown nationalism. But the “Left” eschews nationalism at home. Yet the nationalism of the “other” is authentic and palatable. Discarding one’s own flag is de rigueur but filling oneself up with the nationalism of the other is acceptable.
Thus the post-1990s embrace of religious fanaticism and right-wing nationalist extremism abroad has filled the void left by the fall of communism for the intellectual Left in the West.
Look at Chavez as a perfect example; a bloated, bullying, uniformed militarist and former coup leader turned into a “revolutionary internationalist” and praised. He had “uncompromising anti-imperialism” and mobilized “global unity against the main enemy.”
His “grassroots communal councils” were “engaging masses and building meaningful democracy.” Alan Woods in the London Progressive Journal warned of “sabotage” and the “lumpenproletariat riffraff” who were “causing mayhem” against poor Chavez.
Listen to how the Westerner describes the great leader: “Chavez always drew inspiration from contact with the revolutionary masses.” So why don’t they have Chavez in the UK or America? Men in uniform parading, the president’s voice booming on all channels, searching for “enemies,” “sabotage”?
A bit like Donald Trump, but more so.
Because the Westerner wants their “great leader” in Venezuala, not London, religious police to harass “immodest women” in Aceh, not Denmark. Nationalism abroad, pragmatism at home. Bolivarian Revolution abroad, internationalism at home.
Because Venezuelans pay the price now with mass hunger, as a recent BBC report noted, empty shelves, people unable to breastfeed because the country was destroyed by this populist, militarist nonsense.
Chavez was not a “progressive,” he was a right-wing militarist who passed himself off as left-wing in much the same way Hezbollah and Hamas, Bashar Assad and the ayatollahs are all “left-wing.”
WHEN LOOKING at the love and adoration some in the West have for the extreme Right abroad, one notices how people embrace diametric opposite values abroad and at home. They don’t like Jerry Falwell, but if he was Ayatollah Jerry al-Falwell, he’d be beloved and honored.
Rabbi Brant Rosen, who supports “social justice” in Chicago, went to Iran in 2008 and met men in robes with beards who represent the opposite of social justice. He wrote glowingly of the ethno-nationalism of “Persia, a country with a proud and venerable history...all Iranians young and old identify deeply with their ancient history....united in their reverence for Persian history.”
What about the Iranian minorities being brutally suppressed by the Persians, such as Kurds, Arabs, Azeris and Baluch? The American rabbi didn’t mention them, in fact his blog seems to indicate that they don’t exist.
In America social justice means acknowledging minorities, but those preaching social justice at home embrace rabid religious extremism abroad. No one would accept a law forcing women to cover their hair in Chicago, but in Iran they laugh and enjoy the forced religious observance.
Why is Persian nationalism or other foreign nationalism so enticing to some in the West? Because American, French or German nationalism is not.
Abroad is a place to pour one’s love of “proud nations.” It’s where one can openly worship verile, powerful men; nationalism, religious extremism, war, caning and hanging in public, beheadings, stonings – let out all that aggression that living in the West has cooped up.
The love of foreign nation and religion one finds in the writings of so many on the “Left” who ostensibly oppose nationalism is always interesting. The love of “pride,” faith, dignity and roots in the soil, of brawn and flag, of sword and gun, points to a nationalist yearning that the Western self-defined Left cannot allow them- selves at home.
The same values in Trump or Brexit, Le Pen or Lega Nord that the progressives find objectionable in the West, when expressed in Venezuala, Syria, Iran or among Palestinians are admirable.
Don’t kid yourselves and pretend these progressives simply don’t hear their friends in Iran call abortion “satanic” or hear them say homosexuals are a “cancer,” or hear their chauvinist friends in the Muslim Brotherhood say a woman’s “place is in the home.”
They hear it, and they support it. When the overweight, bearded religious leaders in Iran say “women and men are different; women are driven by their emotions,” the same people who speak of “gender neutrality” in the West widen their eyes and say “yes I agree, such an insight,” not “where is the transgender bathroom?”
When Hugo Chavez said he couldn’t be a homosexual because he was “sufficiently macho to pulverize any accusation along those lines,” gay rights advocates didn’t bat an eye. Homophobia is cool – only abroad, not at home.
If you took an average progressive lover of Hezbollah and told them to dunk in a fountain and be born again in Texas they’d mock “ignorant religion” – but take them to the Beka’a valley and tell them to whip them- selves for Ashura and they’ll find it beautiful.
This entire phenomenon is what should be known as “locational liberalism.”
Locational liberalism means you support liberalism only in one place, and support its diametric opposite somewhere else. The result is that there are basically two right-wing forces at war with each other in the West. One supports right-wing religious nationalist forces abroad, the other supports them at home.
The West’s fragile liberal values which took 1,000 years to achieve by eroding the power of religion, nationalism, racism, xenophobia and chauvinism stand no chance against the competing forces of the foreign right wing, the internal right wing and the internal locational liberal who betrays them at home and supports them abroad.
When the history of the West is written it will say: they educated themselves to hate themselves and love what they hate about themselves in the other.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Why-Western-leftists-adore-right-wing-religious-extremists-abroad-462978
When the history of the West is written it will say: they educated themselves to hate themselves and love what they hate about themselves in the other.
On a fairly consistent basis people in the West embrace values abroad that they shun at home.
This is particularly odd and contradictory among those who self-identify as “Left” and “liberal” and then embrace movements, leaders, ideologies and religions that are manifestly illiberal and right- wing extremist abroad. For instance American philosopher and gender theorist Judith Butler said in 2006 that “understanding Hamas [and] Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the left, that are part of the global left, is extremely important.
That contradictory view is emblematic of a phenomenon spanning everything from Michel Foucault’s embrace of the Islamic Revolution in Iran to those “anti-war” activists in the UK who support Syrian President Bashar Assad and Russia’s bombing of civilians.
Why do people who support women’s rights in the US or France excuse the Iranian regime? Why do those who dislike militarism view as romantic people in uniform in Pakistan or Moscow?
Why do those who dislike US presidential candidate Donald Trump find bombastic populists like Venezuala’s Hugo Chavez so endearing?
Why is Assad’s war on terror so good, but George W. Bush’s so bad?
Large numbers of commentators and intellectuals associated with the “Left” in the West have, for over 100 years, continually allied themselves with totalitarian, extremist, thuggish, populist, militarist, extreme right-wing, religious fanatical regimes and movements abroad.
Whether it was George Bernard Shaw touring and apologizing for Stalin’s Russia, or Noam Chomsky claiming refugees from the Cambodian genocide were “unreliable” and that “massacre reports were false,” there is a long tradition of mitigating the kinds of crimes abroad people would never excuse at home.
To understand this phenomenon we have to unpack what it means to be “left-wing” in the West. To be on the Left is to be good, to be progressive, to be for women’s rights, gay rights, environmentalism, social justice, worker’s rights, and to be against racism and discrimination, perhaps against nuclear energy, against war.
It didn’t always mean that.
Before the defeat of Nazism, to be left-wing was largely an ideological choice to be part of a “global Left” of various movements.
Although ostensibly for workers’ rights, right- and left-wing populist movements of the 1920s were essentially the same in their totalitarian fantasies. Since being “Left” was self-defined, it’s not clear what made the Khmer Rouge and its genocide any more “left-wing” than the Hutu genociders in Rwanda.
What made Arab nationalists of one variety, such as Palestinians, “left-wing” whereas those of another variety, such as the Lebanese Forces, “right-wing”?
Loyalty to these left-wing movements was largely ideological, if not contradictory. So Stalin was supported simply because some left-wingers in the West accepted the Soviet Communist Party’s line; others liked comrade Trotsky and therefore did not like Stalin. Not because they were liberals, but because the party told them so.
In those days the ideological Left wanted the West to look like the Soviet Union: a one-party state they would control.
When we get to the 1990s and the fall of Communism, the need to be loyal to a declining and dying official Left abroad was eroded.
But what to do about the void inside, the need to be loyal to fanatical, violent, extremist movements abroad? Where was the romance of “revolution,” as they called the genocide in Cambodia, the revolution of the “peasants” and “masses” and the lioniz- ing of mass murder in the name of populism?
To understand the blind and contradictory loyalty of people who call themselves “progressive” but embrace manifestly reactionary policies abroad is to understand that humans need to fill the void of rage within.
For the self-declared “Right” in the West that void is filled through home-grown nationalism. But the “Left” eschews nationalism at home. Yet the nationalism of the “other” is authentic and palatable. Discarding one’s own flag is de rigueur but filling oneself up with the nationalism of the other is acceptable.
Thus the post-1990s embrace of religious fanaticism and right-wing nationalist extremism abroad has filled the void left by the fall of communism for the intellectual Left in the West.
Look at Chavez as a perfect example; a bloated, bullying, uniformed militarist and former coup leader turned into a “revolutionary internationalist” and praised. He had “uncompromising anti-imperialism” and mobilized “global unity against the main enemy.”
His “grassroots communal councils” were “engaging masses and building meaningful democracy.” Alan Woods in the London Progressive Journal warned of “sabotage” and the “lumpenproletariat riffraff” who were “causing mayhem” against poor Chavez.
Listen to how the Westerner describes the great leader: “Chavez always drew inspiration from contact with the revolutionary masses.” So why don’t they have Chavez in the UK or America? Men in uniform parading, the president’s voice booming on all channels, searching for “enemies,” “sabotage”?
A bit like Donald Trump, but more so.
Because the Westerner wants their “great leader” in Venezuala, not London, religious police to harass “immodest women” in Aceh, not Denmark. Nationalism abroad, pragmatism at home. Bolivarian Revolution abroad, internationalism at home.
Because Venezuelans pay the price now with mass hunger, as a recent BBC report noted, empty shelves, people unable to breastfeed because the country was destroyed by this populist, militarist nonsense.
Chavez was not a “progressive,” he was a right-wing militarist who passed himself off as left-wing in much the same way Hezbollah and Hamas, Bashar Assad and the ayatollahs are all “left-wing.”
WHEN LOOKING at the love and adoration some in the West have for the extreme Right abroad, one notices how people embrace diametric opposite values abroad and at home. They don’t like Jerry Falwell, but if he was Ayatollah Jerry al-Falwell, he’d be beloved and honored.
Rabbi Brant Rosen, who supports “social justice” in Chicago, went to Iran in 2008 and met men in robes with beards who represent the opposite of social justice. He wrote glowingly of the ethno-nationalism of “Persia, a country with a proud and venerable history...all Iranians young and old identify deeply with their ancient history....united in their reverence for Persian history.”
What about the Iranian minorities being brutally suppressed by the Persians, such as Kurds, Arabs, Azeris and Baluch? The American rabbi didn’t mention them, in fact his blog seems to indicate that they don’t exist.
In America social justice means acknowledging minorities, but those preaching social justice at home embrace rabid religious extremism abroad. No one would accept a law forcing women to cover their hair in Chicago, but in Iran they laugh and enjoy the forced religious observance.
Why is Persian nationalism or other foreign nationalism so enticing to some in the West? Because American, French or German nationalism is not.
Abroad is a place to pour one’s love of “proud nations.” It’s where one can openly worship verile, powerful men; nationalism, religious extremism, war, caning and hanging in public, beheadings, stonings – let out all that aggression that living in the West has cooped up.
The love of foreign nation and religion one finds in the writings of so many on the “Left” who ostensibly oppose nationalism is always interesting. The love of “pride,” faith, dignity and roots in the soil, of brawn and flag, of sword and gun, points to a nationalist yearning that the Western self-defined Left cannot allow them- selves at home.
The same values in Trump or Brexit, Le Pen or Lega Nord that the progressives find objectionable in the West, when expressed in Venezuala, Syria, Iran or among Palestinians are admirable.
Don’t kid yourselves and pretend these progressives simply don’t hear their friends in Iran call abortion “satanic” or hear them say homosexuals are a “cancer,” or hear their chauvinist friends in the Muslim Brotherhood say a woman’s “place is in the home.”
They hear it, and they support it. When the overweight, bearded religious leaders in Iran say “women and men are different; women are driven by their emotions,” the same people who speak of “gender neutrality” in the West widen their eyes and say “yes I agree, such an insight,” not “where is the transgender bathroom?”
When Hugo Chavez said he couldn’t be a homosexual because he was “sufficiently macho to pulverize any accusation along those lines,” gay rights advocates didn’t bat an eye. Homophobia is cool – only abroad, not at home.
If you took an average progressive lover of Hezbollah and told them to dunk in a fountain and be born again in Texas they’d mock “ignorant religion” – but take them to the Beka’a valley and tell them to whip them- selves for Ashura and they’ll find it beautiful.
This entire phenomenon is what should be known as “locational liberalism.”
Locational liberalism means you support liberalism only in one place, and support its diametric opposite somewhere else. The result is that there are basically two right-wing forces at war with each other in the West. One supports right-wing religious nationalist forces abroad, the other supports them at home.
The West’s fragile liberal values which took 1,000 years to achieve by eroding the power of religion, nationalism, racism, xenophobia and chauvinism stand no chance against the competing forces of the foreign right wing, the internal right wing and the internal locational liberal who betrays them at home and supports them abroad.
When the history of the West is written it will say: they educated themselves to hate themselves and love what they hate about themselves in the other.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Why-Western-leftists-adore-right-wing-religious-extremists-abroad-462978
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:10 pm
Yep, you are very adapt at self delusion and justification for being all gob and no go.
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:11 pm
sassy wrote:Yep, you are very adapt at self delusion and justification for being all gob and no go.
See, a classic example, where someone has not the ability to answer the points, they are left with immature childish insults
Thank you
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:17 pm
Truth hurts doesn't it, gotta find a way of ignoring it and feeling good about yourself. Times up didge, your cowardice has been rumbled, you are just hot air.
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:21 pm
sassy wrote:Truth hurts doesn't it, gotta find a way of ignoring it and feeling good about yourself. Times up didge, your cowardice has been rumbled, you are just hot air.
Yes the truth is hard for you to absorb sassy as to why people will be suspect of people based on actions going on around the world.
Again and I will stress again that nobody says its right, but its how people act on fear.
I am very happy for you to continue to talk about me, as i know its you failing to understand a single thing on this
Like I say, when i speak out on things like Herem, which is genocide in the Torah and bible its utterly appalling and I will condemn such beliefs, as well as all the verses that teach violence and hate. You would no doubt join me on this.
When I speak of the same hate and prejudice found in the islamic text. which based on them makes ISIS the most literal belivers to.
You have a meltdown and ignore these facts.
You only see Muslims when talking about Islam, not the beliefs
That is where you go wrong, as its Muslims that suffer based off your lack of understanding
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Irn Bru Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:01 pm
sassy wrote:Didge wrote:veya_victaous wrote:
No you just cant stop looking backwards to where Islam is.
who cares what some ignorant hillshepherd beleives
IF we have progressed our Science to the point we are more capable then their god?
You want to tie yourself to everyone? then you will not move forward cause there are plenty of fools on earth trying to take it backwards.
cut yourself free from their nonsense and move forward with out them, that is evolution.
So now you are just talking about me
Say I cannot look at where islam is
I can
Then make more absurd accusations
I have moved forward, you are still stick back in time, along with all the previous religious people from a Christian sects who still wish to reverse equality and to be able to discriminate against homosexual and women in the US.
I Go one step forward all the time, you are going back two steps all the time.
So you do not want to join me champion the equal rights for women, homosexuals and minority rights in Muslim majority countries under oppression, in countries like North Korea where its Christians who are the most peresecuted and China who persecutes countless Muslims?
You want to not speak out and do nothing
So if you think something should be done why don’t you actually do something rather than preaching to around a dozen people on here? Why don’t you sign up and volunteer to go and fight ISIS rather than expect our young men and women to go and do it for you? With the time you spend on here it may be that you have no real commitments that are stopping you. Sure I read that you are as fit as a fiddle and well able to complete the Royal Marine course across the terrain so with your self- assessed fighting skills you look ideal for the job and well able to knock off a few Muzzies no problem.
Are you man enough? Have you got the guts or do you expect others to do what you are not prepared to do yourself?
Here’s one organisation where you can make a start and sign up
How to volunteer to fight ISIS in Syria, in eight steps
http://fusion.net/story/324193/fight-isis-syria-war-kurds/
First of all you will have to be able to identify how to tell the difference between ISIS and Muslims and there’s a cartoon in there to help you.
Keep us posted on progress.
lol What an absolute cracker of a cartoon that is about identifying ISIS and for that I'm going to give you a greenie. I hardly ever give these out but on this occasion it is very appropriate.
Irn Bru- The Tartan terror. Keeper of the royal sporran. Chief Haggis Hunter
- Posts : 7719
Join date : 2013-12-11
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:09 pm
lol that shows irn has never read the hadiths, the historicity of Muhammad and the quran
He would see the people closet to Muhammads acts and deeds are ISIS, based off the text
Hey ho
He would see the people closet to Muhammads acts and deeds are ISIS, based off the text
Hey ho
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Irn Bru Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:13 pm
Didge wrote:lol that shows irn has never read the hadiths, the historicity of Muhammad and the quran
He would see the people closet to Muhammads acts and deeds are ISIS, based off the text
Hey ho
So what are you going to do Didge? You've been sceaming for military action to wipe out ISIS and you were calling for the Kurds to be supplied with Arms to do the fighting.
So if you feel so strongly about it and you are allegedly a lean mean fighting machne are you going to join the effort to defeat them?
Or else what's your solution?
Irn Bru- The Tartan terror. Keeper of the royal sporran. Chief Haggis Hunter
- Posts : 7719
Join date : 2013-12-11
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:17 pm
Irn Bru wrote:Didge wrote:lol that shows irn has never read the hadiths, the historicity of Muhammad and the quran
He would see the people closet to Muhammads acts and deeds are ISIS, based off the text
Hey ho
So what are you going to do Didge? You've been sceaming for military action to wipe out ISIS and you were calling for the Kurds to be supplied with Arms to do the fighting.
So if you feel so strongly about it and you are allegedly a lean mean fighting machne are you going to join the effort to defeat them?
Or else what's your solution?
Maybe you should actually read the thread Irn to find the answers I have already given
Or do you need me to dumb it down further for you in order for you to understand
Not sure if I can do a scottish accent in writting
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Irn Bru Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:21 pm
Didge wrote:Irn Bru wrote:Didge wrote:lol that shows irn has never read the hadiths, the historicity of Muhammad and the quran
He would see the people closet to Muhammads acts and deeds are ISIS, based off the text
Hey ho
So what are you going to do Didge? You've been sceaming for military action to wipe out ISIS and you were calling for the Kurds to be supplied with Arms to do the fighting.
So if you feel so strongly about it and you are allegedly a lean mean fighting machne are you going to join the effort to defeat them?
Or else what's your solution?
Maybe you should actually read the thread Irn to find the answers I have already given
Or do you need me to dumb it down further for you in order for you to understand
Not sure if I can do a scottish accent in writting
Yes Didge please post your answers in a sensible way and stop waffling. I'll read you reply later as I'm off up the club for a couple of pints befotre closing.
Don't let me down with even more waffle
Irn Bru- The Tartan terror. Keeper of the royal sporran. Chief Haggis Hunter
- Posts : 7719
Join date : 2013-12-11
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Why Western leftists adore right-wing religious extremists abroad
by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:23 pm
Irn Bru wrote:Didge wrote:
Maybe you should actually read the thread Irn to find the answers I have already given
Or do you need me to dumb it down further for you in order for you to understand
Not sure if I can do a scottish accent in writting
Yes Didge please post your answers in a sensible way and stop waffling. I'll read you reply later as I'm off up the club for a couple of pints befotre closing.
Don't let me down with even more waffle
Guest- Guest
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