Millions are facing a winter of misery - we need to fight child poverty

Dilemma: Mum and child in front of fire
Neil Atkinson / Daily Mirror
The extreme winter weather has brought misery and chaos to thousands of people.

But away from the dramatic pictures of devastated communities, millions of Britain’s poorest families have already been facing severe hardship this winter.

They face the tough choice between heating or eating. A new “heat or eat” generation is a shame on any government.

Today, a survey that we carried out with the Daily Mirror shockingly reveals that five million families are likely to turn their heating down because they can’t afford it. And three million are likely to cut back on food so they can pay their energy bills.

More than half of these families are worried that their children will become ill because their home is too cold. But for many, they have no other option.

Turning the heating on can also drive families into debt. About half a million families told us they are likely to have to take a loan out this winter to help with heating their home. Every day we see families whose homes are so cold that their clothes have nowhere to dry properly.

Parents only turning the heating on for up to a couple of hours a day when their children come home from school. Tragically, some families struggle even to do this.

But solutions are possible. One simple measure that The Children’s Society is calling for is to have all poor families with children get the Warm Home Discount automatically. This is critical to making sure that those most in need can keep their homes warm.

Currently, children living in poverty are not entitled to this key support automatically and, therefore, those most in need do not always get it.

So I urge you to join our fight against child poverty today. Please text WARM to 70099 . No child should have to grow up in a cold home.



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     Disgraceful state of affairs in this day and age, at least when Labour come to power they will take on these scummy rich fat cats and force them to lower their prices.

Very true.

Stop having kids you can't afford, you evil b4st4rds!

BigAndy9 wrote:Very true.

Stop having kids you can't afford, you evil b4st4rds!

What does number of kids have to do with being able to heat your home, you could have one kid and it wouldn't make any difference you idiot.

Think how my poor kids will feel.

We don't get all the free things benefit scroungers get - new double glazed windows every 10 years, new doors, maintained heating system, maintained roof (leaky roof, sorry, you work for a living, tough titties).

Solar panels free of charge, sorry, you work for a living. Oh, then there's a free kitchen and bathroom for the scroungers every 10 years.

I do recall my wife sphinx (I think) talking of what a pain in the arse it was when the freebie crew were doing up her house for her.

Then I have the houses down the road all getting their solar panels put on the roof.

All we do is get the kids' slippers and hot water bottles out.

BigAndy9 wrote:Think how my poor kids will feel.

We don't get all the free things benefit scroungers get - new double glazed windows every 10 years, new doors, maintained heating system, maintained roof (leaky roof, sorry, you work for a living, tough titties).

Solar panels free of charge, sorry, you work for a living.  Oh, then there's a free kitchen and bathroom for the scroungers every 10 years.

I do recall my wife sphinx (I think) talking of what a pain in the arse it was when the freebie crew were doing up her house for her.

Then I have the houses down the road all getting their solar panels put on the roof.

All we do is get the kids' slippers and hot water bottles out.

Your wife andy? Really?

sphinx wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Think how my poor kids will feel.

We don't get all the free things benefit scroungers get - new double glazed windows every 10 years, new doors, maintained heating system, maintained roof (leaky roof, sorry, you work for a living, tough titties).

Solar panels free of charge, sorry, you work for a living.  Oh, then there's a free kitchen and bathroom for the scroungers every 10 years.

I do recall my wife sphinx (I think) talking of what a pain in the arse it was when the freebie crew were doing up her house for her.

Then I have the houses down the road all getting their solar panels put on the roof.

All we do is get the kids' slippers and hot water bottles out.

Your wife andy?  Really?

That's what they have all said in the past.

If only - I could live a life of luxury off your benefits.


  

BigAndy9 wrote:Think how my poor kids will feel.

We don't get all the free things benefit scroungers get - new double glazed windows every 10 years, new doors, maintained heating system, maintained roof (leaky roof, sorry, you work for a living, tough titties).

Solar panels free of charge, sorry, you work for a living.  Oh, then there's a free kitchen and bathroom for the scroungers every 10 years.

I do recall my wife sphinx (I think) talking of what a pain in the arse it was when the freebie crew were doing up her house for her.

Then I have the houses down the road all getting their solar panels put on the roof.

All we do is get the kids' slippers and hot water bottles out.

You been reading the Daily Mail?

Spindleshanks wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Think how my poor kids will feel.

We don't get all the free things benefit scroungers get - new double glazed windows every 10 years, new doors, maintained heating system, maintained roof (leaky roof, sorry, you work for a living, tough titties).

Solar panels free of charge, sorry, you work for a living.  Oh, then there's a free kitchen and bathroom for the scroungers every 10 years.

I do recall my wife sphinx (I think) talking of what a pain in the arse it was when the freebie crew were doing up her house for her.

Then I have the houses down the road all getting their solar panels put on the roof.

All we do is get the kids' slippers and hot water bottles out.

You been reading the Daily Mail?

Nah.

Is it any good?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

You been reading the Daily Mail?

Nah.

Is it any good?

Only if you like fabricated tales of life on benefits.

Spindleshanks wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:



Nah.

Is it any good?

Only if you like fabricated tales of life on benefits.

You really don't think that there are regeneration plans of entire estates where the residents can choose the style of their kitchens, bathrooms, get new double glazing, roofs and in some cases get £20,000 of solar panels?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Only if you like fabricated tales of life on benefits.

You really don't think that there are regeneration plans of entire estates where the residents can choose the style of their kitchens, bathrooms, get new double glazing, roofs and in some cases get £20,000 of solar panels?

If you mean that people's homes are being brought up to standard and fit to live in then yes. It doesn't happen every 10 years though, some of these houses are 50 years old and only being refurbished for the first time.

Ok, i'll let you off.

You're just unaware of what goes on.

BigAndy9 wrote:Ok, i'll let you off.

You're just unaware of what goes on.

  

http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/house-garden-194/kitchen-household-14/382385-any1-had-new-council-kitchen-fittd-all.html

All you have to do is type in something along the lines of how often council replace kitchen.

Go on - take a look at a few different websites.

It's fun.

BigAndy9 wrote:http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/house-garden-194/kitchen-household-14/382385-any1-had-new-council-kitchen-fittd-all.html

All you have to do is type in something along the lines of how often council replace kitchen.

Go on - take a look at a few different websites.

It's fun.

What has this got to do with the OP you idiot..Stop dragging threads off topic to your pet subjects.

BigAndy9 wrote:http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/house-garden-194/kitchen-household-14/382385-any1-had-new-council-kitchen-fittd-all.html

All you have to do is type in something along the lines of how often council replace kitchen.

Go on - take a look at a few different websites.

It's fun.

I been in mine nearly 15 years and still have the same kitchen, bathroom, windows, doors and roof that were there the day i moved in.

Catman wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/house-garden-194/kitchen-household-14/382385-any1-had-new-council-kitchen-fittd-all.html

All you have to do is type in something along the lines of how often council replace kitchen.

Go on - take a look at a few different websites.

It's fun.

What has this got to do with the OP you idiot..Stop dragging threads off topic to your pet subjects.

A lot of kids living in poverty live in council housing and old housing with poor insulation doesn't do anything to improve the costs of heating the place. It's about improving substandard homes.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Catman wrote:

What has this got to do with the OP you idiot..Stop dragging threads off topic to your pet subjects.

A lot of kids living in poverty live in council housing and old housing with poor insulation doesn't do anything to improve the costs of heating the place.  It's about improving substandard homes.

That's true, but kitchens have nothing to do with the OP.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Catman wrote:

What has this got to do with the OP you idiot..Stop dragging threads off topic to your pet subjects.

A lot of kids living in poverty live in council housing and old housing with poor insulation doesn't do anything to improve the costs of heating the place.  It's about improving substandard homes.

Indeed. Council housing will have modern insulation, and that does effect the costs of heating the home.

Give us your local council - i'll check out their policy on doing up their houses for you.

That's where you need to look.

Catman wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

A lot of kids living in poverty live in council housing and old housing with poor insulation doesn't do anything to improve the costs of heating the place.  It's about improving substandard homes.

That's true, but kitchens have nothing to do with the OP.

Boilers.

Catman wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

A lot of kids living in poverty live in council housing and old housing with poor insulation doesn't do anything to improve the costs of heating the place.  It's about improving substandard homes.

That's true, but kitchens have nothing to do with the OP.

New doors, double glazed windows and roofs do though, the rest just comes in with refurbishment of substandard housing which Andy seems to resent tenants of council homes getting.

So minimum a household with a child in it will be receiving is £153 a week. Are we saying that £153 a week is insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2?

Spindleshanks wrote:

Catman wrote:

That's true, but kitchens have nothing to do with the OP.

New doors, double glazed windows and roofs do though, the rest just comes in with refurbishment of substandard housing which Andy seems to resent tenants of council homes getting.

They do them up every fifteen years or so, nothing wrong with that at all, Andy resents the poor full stop.

sphinx wrote:So minimum a household with a child in it will be receiving is £153 a week.  Are we saying that £153 a week is insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2?

Do you apply the same argument to pensioners.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:So minimum a household with a child in it will be receiving is £153 a week.  Are we saying that £153 a week is insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2?

Do you apply the same argument to pensioners.  

What argument? I have asked a question.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:So minimum a household with a child in it will be receiving is £153 a week.  Are we saying that £153 a week is insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2?

Do you apply the same argument to pensioners.  

Pensioners shouldn't have children, unless they are the chavvy ones i'm seeing around with little black kids who are fostering them for more money.

Not really pensioners though - 40 - 60 is the usual age.

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Do you apply the same argument to pensioners.  

What argument?  I have asked a question.

You asked if £153 was insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2. Are you saying it is or isn't enough?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Do you apply the same argument to pensioners.  

Pensioners shouldn't have children, unless they are the chavvy ones i'm seeing around with little black kids who are fostering them for more money.

Not really pensioners though - 40 - 60 is the usual age.

Isn't this about heating or eating, something very often applied to pensioners but rarely to families with children.

Spindleshanks wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Pensioners shouldn't have children, unless they are the chavvy ones i'm seeing around with little black kids who are fostering them for more money.

Not really pensioners though - 40 - 60 is the usual age.

Isn't this about heating or eating, something very often applied to pensioners but rarely to families with children.

Hey, i'm all for expanding the subject of the thread, which is child poverty, but Mr Catman thought it was straying a little.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Isn't this about heating or eating, something very often applied to pensioners but rarely to families with children.

Hey, i'm all for expanding the subject of the thread, which is child poverty, but Mr Catman thought it was straying a little.

Child poverty all too often leads to a lifetime of poverty including in old age. There is a definite link.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

What argument?  I have asked a question.

You asked if £153 was insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2.  Are you saying it is or isn't enough?

I am asking whether it is or not.

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

You asked if £153 was insufficient to pay for food and heating for 2.  Are you saying it is or isn't enough?

I am asking whether it is or not.

don't know if you live in the UK or not but if you do, what do you think?

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I am asking whether it is or not.

don't know if you live in the UK or not but if you do, what do you think?

I asked first.

Why are people so antsy about answering? It should be fairly simple.

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

don't know if you live in the UK or not but if you do, what do you think?

I asked first.

Why are people so antsy  about answering?  It should be fairly simple.

I don't think it would be easy no, it isn't just food and heating that has to be paid for out of that.

I don't think it's easy for huge numbers of people at the moment whether they work or not actually.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I asked first.

Why are people so antsy  about answering?  It should be fairly simple.

I don't think it would be easy no, it isn't just food and heating that has to be paid for out of that.

I don't think it's easy for huge numbers of people at the moment whether they work or not actually.

So what else has to be paid out of that?

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

I don't think it would be easy no, it isn't just food and heating that has to be paid for out of that.

I don't think it's easy for huge numbers of people at the moment whether they work or not actually.

So what else has to be paid out of that?

Do you have to pay to go fox hunting out of your benefits, or is that provided for free?

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

I don't think it would be easy no, it isn't just food and heating that has to be paid for out of that.

I don't think it's easy for huge numbers of people at the moment whether they work or not actually.

So what else has to be paid out of that?

electricity, water, tv licence and any other miscellaneous household expenses including in some cases the bedroom tax, not to mention other stuff that needs to be bought on occasion like shoes, clothes etc.

£150 doesn't go anywhere these days.

It's worth remembering that kids are constantly growing too so clothes and shoes have to be bought quite regularly for them.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

So what else has to be paid out of that?

electricity, water, tv licence and any other miscellaneous household expenses including in some cases the bedroom tax, not to mention other stuff that needs to be bought on occasion like shoes, clothes etc.

£150 doesn't go anywhere these days.

Electricity is the heating bit.
So you are saying that a TV has to be had? What about instead of heat or eat we frame the choice as TV or eat? The bedroom tax is not something that has to be put up with - the poor person who is struggling for food or heating can always take in a lodger then they no longer have to pay the bedroom tax plus they have increased the amount of money they have.
So we are left with the occasional costs of clothing/shoes

So £150 + rent money to pay for food, heating and occasional costs of shoes/clothing - against which we can put the fact that in summer that £150 + rent money only has to pay for food and much much reduced power costs because no heating is needed.

Catman wrote:

sphinx wrote:

So what else has to be paid out of that?

Do you have to pay to go fox hunting out of your benefits, or is that provided for free?

I go once a year and it costs me fuel and parking. Obviously if I was having problems getting enough food or keeping warm my choice would not be heat or eat it would be a no brainer no boxing day outing.

Spindleshanks wrote:It's worth remembering that kids are constantly growing too so clothes and shoes have to be bought quite regularly for them.

Strange that as a mother of 4 I had not noticed that   .

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

electricity, water, tv licence and any other miscellaneous household expenses including in some cases the bedroom tax, not to mention other stuff that needs to be bought on occasion like shoes, clothes etc.

£150 doesn't go anywhere these days.

Electricity is the heating bit.  
So you are saying that a TV has to be had?  What about instead of heat or eat we frame the choice as TV or eat?  The bedroom tax is not something that has to be put up with - the poor person who is struggling for food or heating can always take in a lodger then they no longer have to pay the bedroom tax plus they have increased the amount of money they have.
So we are left with the occasional costs of clothing/shoes

So £150 + rent money to pay for food, heating and occasional costs of shoes/clothing - against which we can put the fact that in summer that £150 + rent money only has to pay for food and  much much reduced power costs because no heating is needed.

The electricity being the heating bit depends on how your house is heated surely. I have gas central heating so have to pay for that separately from my electricity as do millions of other people.

No, they don't HAVE to have a tv but why shouldn't they, just because someone is on benefits should they have to go without any little 'luxury' item?

Why should they have to take in a lodger, that would just reduce the benefits they have, not increase their overall income.

Rent money if it's not paid to the council is for the rent so can't be counted, it is not meant to pay for food or any other sundry item, it's meant to keep a roof over their heads.

Occasional costs for a child are not as occasional as you think considering they are constantly growing. A pair of shoes will last 3 months if you're lucky.

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:It's worth remembering that kids are constantly growing too so clothes and shoes have to be bought quite regularly for them.

Strange that as a mother of 4 I had not noticed that   .

then you will know that clothing kids is not cheap.

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:It's worth remembering that kids are constantly growing too so clothes and shoes have to be bought quite regularly for them.

Strange that as a mother of 4 I had not noticed that   .

You also forget to account for the like of kitchen appliances etc going on the blink Sphinx, a new wash machine is around £200 for a basic ,mower price one, you just can't say every person can live off the same amount as each household differs , you always say that you manage without any issues, but that is you, tour OH also libes with you you said before, but not all four of tour kids live with you do they?...

Then you would see what a real struggle it would be.

The other week you said folk should sell all their furniture before applying for benefits ,why is that? That would mean they have no cooking appliances, no fridge or freezer , no sofa , no bed etc...

More problems than it's worth,mans I just don't believe you would sell all your furniture before applying for benefits,

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Electricity is the heating bit.  
So you are saying that a TV has to be had?  What about instead of heat or eat we frame the choice as TV or eat?  The bedroom tax is not something that has to be put up with - the poor person who is struggling for food or heating can always take in a lodger then they no longer have to pay the bedroom tax plus they have increased the amount of money they have.
So we are left with the occasional costs of clothing/shoes

So £150 + rent money to pay for food, heating and occasional costs of shoes/clothing - against which we can put the fact that in summer that £150 + rent money only has to pay for food and  much much reduced power costs because no heating is needed.

The electricity being the heating bit depends on how your house is heated surely.  I have gas central heating so have to pay for that separately from my electricity as do millions of other people.

No, they don't HAVE to have a tv but why shouldn't they, just because someone is on benefits should they have to go without any little 'luxury' item?

Why should they have to take in a lodger, that would just reduce the benefits they have, not increase their overall income.

Rent money if it's not paid to the council is for the rent so can't be counted, it is not meant to pay for food or any other sundry item, it's meant to keep a roof over their heads.

Occasional costs for a child are not as occasional as you think considering they are constantly growing.  A pair of shoes will last 3 months if you're lucky.

If your heating is gas your electric costs do not massively increase in cold weather (I also have both)
I did not say they should not have a TV I have said people should not claim their choice is heat or eat when they have other things like TVs they could sacrifice.
Taking a lodger does not reduce benefits - it was part of the "bedroom tax" law to ensure that those taking in a lodger benefited financially from it. The first £20 is not touched and any amount over £20 is taken out at 50p in the pound. Please note that £20 is more than a person on benefits is allowed to keep from part time wages and that a lodger paying £50 a week means the landlord is £35 a week better off. That is on top of no longer having to pay the bedroom extra - so if the extra bedroom was costing £10 a week that means taking a lodger equates to £45 a week more money in the pocket.

Believe it or not I know how much kids cost and how often - I have four.

Spindleshanks wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Strange that as a mother of 4 I had not noticed that   .

then you will know that clothing kids is not cheap.

I know it can be found cheap if people want to look for it.

Joy Division wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Strange that as a mother of 4 I had not noticed that   .

You also forget to account for the like of kitchen appliances etc going on the blink Sphinx, a new wash machine is around £200 for a basic ,mower price one, you just can't say every person can live off the same amount as each household differs , you always say that you manage without any issues, but that is you, tour OH also libes with you you  said before, but not all four of tour kids live with you do they?...

Then you would see what a real struggle it would be.

The other week you said folk should sell all their furniture before applying for benefits ,why is that? That would mean they have no cooking appliances, no fridge or freezer , no sofa , no bed etc...

More problems than it's worth,mans I just don't believe you would sell all your furniture before applying for benefits,

JD I have lived on benefits as a single, part of a couple, and with between 1 and 4 children. It is financially easier with 4 children than none because each extra child means extra income and while the first child requires all the extra income subsequent additions cost less.

I have said I personally would sell all excess furniture before going near a food bank - but then I am bloody careful to manage my money so I dont reach the point of selling beds (and yes that does include 6 months on sanctions when ATOS fucked the medical in 2006)

sphinx wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

electricity, water, tv licence and any other miscellaneous household expenses including in some cases the bedroom tax, not to mention other stuff that needs to be bought on occasion like shoes, clothes etc.

£150 doesn't go anywhere these days.

Electricity is the heating bit.  
So you are saying that a TV has to be had?  What about instead of heat or eat we frame the choice as TV or eat?  The bedroom tax is not something that has to be put up with - the poor person who is struggling for food or heating can always take in a lodger then they no longer have to pay the bedroom tax plus they have increased the amount of money they have.
So we are left with the occasional costs of clothing/shoes

So £150 + rent money to pay for food, heating and occasional costs of shoes/clothing - against which we can put the fact that in summer that £150 + rent money only has to pay for food and  much much reduced power costs because no heating is needed.

Absolutely astonishing that anyone could come up with all that as a solution in this country for someone who may have fallen on hard times through possibly losing their job.

You should send a sample of your work to Paul Dacre who would no doubt offer you your own column with the Daily Mail. You are more extreme than the Tories and even more extreme than UKIP.

It's really a sad reflection on how some people would want to treat people.

Irn Bru wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Electricity is the heating bit.  
So you are saying that a TV has to be had?  What about instead of heat or eat we frame the choice as TV or eat?  The bedroom tax is not something that has to be put up with - the poor person who is struggling for food or heating can always take in a lodger then they no longer have to pay the bedroom tax plus they have increased the amount of money they have.
So we are left with the occasional costs of clothing/shoes

So £150 + rent money to pay for food, heating and occasional costs of shoes/clothing - against which we can put the fact that in summer that £150 + rent money only has to pay for food and  much much reduced power costs because no heating is needed.

Absolutely astonishing that anyone could come up with all that as a solution in this country for someone who may have fallen on hard times through possibly losing their job.

You should send a sample of your work to Paul Dacre who would no doubt offer you your own column with the Daily Mail. You are more extreme than the Tories and even more extreme than UKIP.

It's really a sad reflection on how some people would want to treat people.

How exactly am I extreme.

I admit I am being deliberately obtuse on this matter and I should learn not to do that as people never get it.

So to stop being obtuse I am trying to get people to realize that most of the people and families claiming "heat or eat" actually have other outgoings they could sacrifice first.

Surely I am not the only person to be disturbed by the fact that some people will choose to cut back on heat or food rather than get rid of the TV, or use second hand clothes for their children etc etc.4

Years ago people got money and they paid the rent then bought the food then looked at heating before the matter of clothing or TV were even thought of. Food and heating were the most important things and people would sacrifice to meet these costs. Now they seem to have slipped much further down the list of important stuff and this worries.

I am not saying that it is right to expect to only be able to buy food and heat I am simply trying to show that actually benefits do cover those 2 things - if those are the only 2 things people spend on. If we want to solve the problems of the poor in society we do actually need to be honest with ourselves about what the problems are - by making out the issues are more extreme than they really are we actually do the poor a disservice. It would be preferable for people to say that poor people are struggling to maintain a basic level of living consisting of heat food clothing telephone and tv rather than heat or eat. The brutal fact is people in this country are reasonably well aware that benefits do actually cover food and heating and so all headlines about heat or eat achieve is to make people think "people on benefits are getting a bit uncomfortable again" - some will respond to this with a need to do something to make people on benefits lives comfortable because that assuages their own guilt others will respond with so fucking what they cant be assed let em suffer. A concentration on what a basic level of living would be more effective at getting people to think what the reality of poor is and with less high powered gut feelings flowing about might result in more being done.

Like I said I tend to get obtuse.

sphinx wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Absolutely astonishing that anyone could come up with all that as a solution in this country for someone who may have fallen on hard times through possibly losing their job.

You should send a sample of your work to Paul Dacre who would no doubt offer you your own column with the Daily Mail. You are more extreme than the Tories and even more extreme than UKIP.

It's really a sad reflection on how some people would want to treat people.

How exactly am I extreme.

I admit I am being deliberately obtuse on this matter and I should learn not to do that as people never get it.

So to stop being obtuse I am trying to get people to realize that most of the people and families claiming "heat or eat" actually have other outgoings they could sacrifice first.

Surely I am not the only person to be disturbed by the fact that some people will choose to cut back on heat or food rather than get rid of the TV, or use second hand clothes for their children etc etc.4

Years ago people got money and they paid the rent then bought the food then looked at heating before the matter of clothing or TV were even thought of.  Food and heating were the most important things and people would sacrifice to meet these costs.  Now they seem to have slipped much further down the list of important stuff and this worries.

I am not saying that it is right to expect to only be able to buy food and heat I am simply trying to show that actually benefits do cover those 2 things - if those are the only 2 things people spend on.  If we want to solve the problems of the poor in society we do actually need to be honest with ourselves about what the problems are - by making out the issues are more extreme than they really are we actually do the poor a disservice.  It would be preferable for people to say that poor people are struggling to maintain a basic level of living consisting of heat food clothing telephone and tv rather than heat or eat.  The brutal fact is people in this country are reasonably well aware that benefits do actually cover food and heating and so all headlines about heat or eat achieve is to make people think "people on benefits are getting a bit uncomfortable again" - some will respond to this with a need to do something to make people on benefits lives comfortable because that assuages their own guilt others will respond with so fucking what they cant be assed let em suffer.  A concentration on what a basic level of living would be more effective at getting people to think what the reality of poor is and with less high powered gut feelings flowing about might result in more being done.

Like I said I tend to get obtuse.

There really is no need for you to write a tidal wave of words to defend yourself. What you have already written shows quite clearly what you think of people who are struggling and the solutions you would suggest they take just to keep warm.
It's sad - really really sad.