Ken Livingstone's Zion Gaff

I get he's dropped a massive gaff here, but now it seems to be turning into a witch hunt. Am I missing something?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/665321/What-did-Ken-Livingstone-say-Hitler-is-a-Zionist-interview-BBC-London-Vanessa-Feltz

On my way to Dad's in a minute, thought I'd just answer you before I go.


Ken was historical correct and he was asked the question.  The Haavara Agreement existed and medal was made to celebrate it.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement   It was agreed between the Nazi's and the Zionists to get Jews to Palestine and Hitler, as Ken said, supported until he went nuts and decided they weren't going fast enough and set about killing them all.



see also:  http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/04/28/livingstone-vindicated-there-was-a-nazi-zionist-agreement-and-hitler-did-support-it/


  I'm utterly sick of all questioning of Israeli policity being shouted down by cries of anti-semitism.   It's become a tool to stop people talking about the atrocities committed by Israel.   And yes, I know others commit atrocities, but we are allowed to discuss them are we not?   Jeremy should have backed Ken to the hilt and we should have said we are not going to be intimidated by the Israeli lobby, we are going to stand with the brave Jewish people, both in and out of Israel, who fight like hell to show the world what their government is doing and are maligned for it, and called 'self hating Jews'.  They need our support.

As for John Mann, a petition is circulating to have him disciplined and gaining votes every second.  He set up the situation and was obviously in cohoots with the newsteam to have the cameras there.

Instead of the news being about the 26 Conservative MPs who are being investigated for electorial fraud and the Court throwing out the Government case that it's treatment of people claiming benefits wasn't illegal, we have had this load of contrived rubbish.

sassy wrote:On my way to Dad's in a minute, thought I'd just answer you before I go.


Ken was historical correct and he was asked the question.  The Haavara Agreement existed and medal was made to celebrate it.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement   It was agreed between the Nazi's and the Zionists to get Jews to Palestine and Hitler, as Ken said, supported until he went nuts and decided they weren't going fast enough and set about killing them all.



see also:  http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/04/28/livingstone-vindicated-there-was-a-nazi-zionist-agreement-and-hitler-did-support-it/


  I'm utterly sick of all questioning of Israeli policity being shouted down by cries of anti-semitism.   It's become a tool to stop people talking about the atrocities committed by Israel.   And yes, I know others commit atrocities, but we are allowed to discuss them are we not?   Jeremy should have backed Ken to the hilt and we should have said we are not going to be intimidated by the Israeli lobby, we are going to stand with the brave Jewish people, both in and out of Israel, who fight like hell to show the world what their government is doing and are maligned for it, and called 'self hating Jews'.  They need our support.

As for John Mann, a petition is circulating to have him disciplined and gaining votes every second.  He set up the situation and was obviously in cohoots with the newsteam to have the cameras there.

Instead of the news being about the 26 Conservative MPs who are being investigated for electorial fraud and the Court throwing out the Government case that it's treatment of people claiming benefits wasn't illegal, we have had this load of contrived rubbish.

Need to clear up some very poor misinformation that has been presented to defend Ken Livingstone. Which really goes to show how little people understand Histprically about Zionism, The British mandate of Palestine, Nazi Germany, Hitler, Arab Nationalism.

Lets start with the claim that Livingstone made.
That Hitler was a Zionist.
That is why people are rightly utterly appalled by his revisionist fabricated history
The Haavara agreement has nothing to do with supporting Zionism or the creation of a Jewish State. It was a means for Nazi Germany, to rid the country. Of what they termed “The Jewish Problem”. In fact Hitler even criticised the agreement when it was created, which was before he was made Dictator, which came in 1934, not 1933. He only agreed to this in the years 1937-39 and only then to encourage the remaining Jews still there to leave.

The fact is though the agreement was a way to counter and break the Anti-Nazi boycott of 1933. So Nazi Germany had three motivations for signing the agreement. Which allowed for “German Jews” to transfer “property” to the British Mandate of Palestine? The First was to encourage Jews to emigrate out of Germany. The second as stated was to break the Anti-Nazi boycott. The third was help combat the high unemployment levels. So it was in the best interest of Nazi Germany before the war started. To assist Jews leaving, but at a price. As Germany was economically very weak at this stage. The agreement made no reference to either supporting the creation of a Jewish state or supporting Zionism. German Jewish emigrants had to pay the equivalent of a thousand pounds sterling in a company. That money paid for German exports to import to the British Mandate of Palestine.
So Livingstone was so wrong and historically insulting to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust. That he has placed Zionism on a par with Hitler and Nazi Germany itself. Hitler was a supporter of Arab nationalism, not the creation of a Jewish state. Before the “Final Solution” was implemented, Hitler wanted rid of the Jews out of Germany. He saw the Jews not by an religious association, but as a Sub Human Race. So Hitler would have never supported Zionism, as its Jewish Movement

"Zionism is the Jewish national movement. "Zionism" derives its name from "Zion," (pronounced "Tzyion" in Hebrew) a hill in Jerusalem. The word means "marker" or commemoration. "Shivath Tzion" is one of the traditional terms for the return of Jewish exiles.  "Zionism" is not a monolithic ideological movement. It includes, for example, socialist Zionists such as Ber Borochov, religious Zionists such as rabbi Kook, extreme nationalists such as Jabotinski and cultural Zionists exemplified by Asher Ginsberg (Ahad Ha'am). Zionist ideas evolved over time and were influenced by circumstances as well as by social and cultural movements popular in Europe at different times, including socialism, nationalism and colonialism, and assumed different "flavors" depending on the country of origin of the thinkers and prevalent contemporary intellectual currents.  Accordingly, no single person, publication, quote or pronouncement should be taken as embodying "official"  Zionist ideology.

So Livingstone was historically wrong and even worse dehumanizing Jews who support Zionism in its many varied forms. So it was in the interest of Nazi Germany to sign the agreement. That allowed for the purchase of German exports, an extortionate price. Jews had been on the receiving end of countless boycotts within Germany, since 1921. Violence and SA thugs had been for the previous few years. By preventing anyone from entering Jewish properties, businesses etc. In April 1 1933 (Fools day, I know), the Nazi’s implemented the boycott of Jewish businesses and Professionals Nationwide. So for years, the German Jews have been targeted with countless Boycotts, within German. Over a decade before the Nazi’s came to power. Even before Hitler came to power, he had been calling for nationwide boycotts against Jews. This had been so effective. That many German employers would no longer employ Jews. They were also barred from many places like hotels.

Life would have at this point seemed very bleak for the German Jews at this point. As what sort of future now lay for them in Germany? Clearly for many German Jews, who could afford to, was to leave. Some would leave for America, other European countries. Its no surprise, that by a month later. The “Zionist Federation of Germany”. Submitted an application to transfer capital from Germany to Palestine. As seen Germany was economically weak and wanted to appear to the rest of the world as assisting German Jews. So all this agreement made, was to allow, through a steep cost. Some economic support to German Jews when they migrated back to their ancestral lands. What is omitted by Sassy within all of this of course. Is that not all German Jews were Zionists. Also other Zionists did not agree with the  Haavara agreement. As they were opposed to any cooperation with Nazi Germany Now Non-Zionist German Jews. Refused to back the agreement. As they held out hope of the Anti-Nazi boycott, would be able to apply enough pressure to restore Jewish rights in Germany.

Now Jews had been returning to the Middle East, since the 1700’s. So Jews had been fleeing persecution in Europe, before the concept of Zionism itself. Jews had also survived two genocides by the Romans. The Romans understood Von Clausewitz’s strategy on Absolute War. Before Von Clausewitz’s put pen to paper. The Romans had used far more extreme methods. The Romans dealt with years of zealots and sicarii terrorism with extreme measures. Also crushing two major Jewish revolts.  The second also saw the Romans exiles the majority of the Jews. Though by the time of the crusades. Many Jewish families had returned to the area and estimates place the Jewish population in the Holy Lands at between 250,000 to 300,000. After the Crusader conquest of Jerusalem. Most Jews had been slaughtered and forced into exile. Leaving around 1000 Jewish families still living with what was formerly Israel and Judah..
Now here is the saddest part of this whole episode. Due to the fact, the US and Europe had placed restrictions on immigration. Where between 1933 and 1939 and the outbreak of the war.  Where with the 1939 “British White Paper”. Limited Jewish immigration to 75,000, over 5 years. Just 15,000 a year to Palestine. They were not to know the British, but with the already restricted immigration in the rest of Europe. This paper also signed the death sentence of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

Approximately 282,000 Jews had left Germany and 117,000 from annexed Austria. Of these, some 95,000 emigrated to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America, with the largest numbers entering Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Bolivia. More than 18,000 Jews from the German Reich were also able to find refuge in Shanghai, in Japanese-occupied China.
At the end of 1939, about 202,000 Jews remained in Germany and 57,000 in annexed Austria, many of them elderly. By October 1941, when Jewish emigration was officially forbidden, the number of Jews in Germany had declined to 163,000. The vast majority of those Jews still in Germany were murdered in Nazi camps and ghettos during the Holocaust.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005468

With the outbreak of the war, then more than any other time, Jews needed the freedom to leave from the rest of Europe to flee to safer countries. As the Nazi made huge gains in the early part of the war. This then place millions of more Jews within German  control, who did not stop immigration until 1941. So the restricted by the allies to immigration and the “British White paper” denied many Jews the ability to leave, who did not support Zionism. Or of those who did, who refused to cooperate with the Germans. The allies through fear, denied entry to hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigration applications.  Just try to imagine, how many more lives could have been saved, if we had some of the leaders in Office today, rather back then. They may have won the conflict the allies, but the 1938 and 1943 conferences, both maintained the status quo, by keeping severe restrictions to immigration. The “British White Paper”, in my opinion, as well as the poor incompetence during the Bengal famine. Are two of the darkest and poorest decisions made. I mean the British had only two decades previously, agreed to the 14 point plan by Woodrow Wilson. Number 10 of this plan, was Self Determination for the peoples of Eastern Europe. All minority people of course,  which led to many treaties and the annexation of land, to form, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia. Let alone the Middle Eastern nations.  

That this paper was formed off the back of the 1936-39 Arab revolt in the Mandate. In other words, as well as the appeasement to Hitler by Chamberlain in 1938 at Munich. The British caved into Arab threats and violence. I mean even in the 1939 London Conference, set up to negotiate an agreement between Arabs and the Jews. Was doomed from the off, where the Arab authorities only attended. On the condition, that they would not have to meet the Jewish representatives. The very people needed in order for the conference to be successful. So the British bowed down in the aftermath of a revolt which killed many British troops as well as Jews. This to their shame, and the fact, they fail to ensure both parties met for the negotiations. Plus the deliberate refusal by the Arabs to allow for the formation of an Israel state. Are the major causes, for as to why the conflict has continued to this day. Most Jews and Arabs have been recent immigrants, over the last 100 years. Its shows that at this time the level of antisemitism, as it had been for centuries. Was not confined to Nazi Germany.

It may make some of you sit up and think about the current Syrian crisis. When some here bemoan the numbers. Just think about this. If we had of acted and stepped into this conflict as a peace keeping force. Gaining control of the area. There would not have been the millions of displaced Syrians. While it may seem daunting over the numbers and I understand people’s concerns. It’s only a temporary measure. Until stability can be brought about in Syria. So those against refugees and armed intervention,

may want to rethink their strategy on this. The more we sit back, the longer and increasingly bigger. The refugee crisis will remain.

My final point is on the actual holocaust itself and showing further that Hitler was no Zionist. All the lands Hitler conquered. He placed many Jews with Ghettos and to start with. Mass shootings of Jews. Hitler fundamentally supported Arab nationalism. Had Rommel succeeded in North Africa. In defeating the British and her allies.. Rommel would have pushed onto the Middle east. Which would of denied the British Empire, not only access through the Suez Canal.  Which with German U-boats at their height in 1942, would have brought Britain to its knees. Losing this vital gateway and access for shipping of imports, through the Mediterranean to Britain.  If this lifeline to Britain’s overseas territories, had been severed.  The ships would now have to sail all around the Cape of Africa and then onto Britain. More importantly the vast loss of access to Middle East Oil.

In Jan 1942, Japan and Germany agreed to carve up a greater part of the world. The Middle east was going to be an area of German influence and control. Hitler had vowed the previous year to the Grand Mufti. That he would murder all the Jews of the Middle East. Which was part of his “final solution” to exterminate all Jews.  It suited Nazi Germany’s purpose to help and asset German Jews to leave. In order to help the German economy grow again. As seen all areas conquered by the Nazi’s. Saw millions, shot, hanged, gassed, starved to death.  Hitler since after the loss of WW1, held the Jews accountable for this defeat. The concept and idea to rid the world of the Jews had been forming in his minds for years after. Which these views can easily be picked on within Mein Kampf. The “Final Solution” was inevitable, once Germany had gone to war. The Nazi’s needed time to build up their economy and military strength. It was when the war started, that the beginnings of the international Nazi policy to wipe out the Jews took real form

So maybe Ken Livingstone, may want to tell the 60,000 Jews lucky and sensible enough to get out whilst the going was good between 1933 and 1939 by going to Palestine and ensured some chance for the future through the export agreement. That his dehumanizing now of these surviving 60,000 Jewish survivors. Which even worse by falsifying that Hitler was a Zionist, is making those survivors, complicit to the holocaust. Though an invented associating, fasly claiming Hitler was a Zionist. That has to go down as one of the worst lies in history.

To where Livingston must think, they should have been murdered like so many other ethnic groups, political prisoners, homosexuals, Gypsies, etc.  Is not only beyond contempt, but further proves the hate and falsified organised industry against Israel. Doing their upmost to dehumanise, delegitimize, hypocritical shameful boycotts against the Israeli people. Which also effects many employed Palestinians working and employed within Israel.  This ss sadly history repeating itself all over again, Before it was the Nazi’s, Far right, Communists, Arab nationalists who falsified countless accusations labelled at the Jews. In order to achieve manipulating many people to hate, dehumanize, delegitimise Jews. Today, it’s the Far Right, some on the Left, the regressive hypocrites, with no change from the Arab world.

The problem with Livingstone, is that he follows the discounted falsified views made in the book. Zionism in the Age of the Dictatorsby Lenni Brenner.  Many people have easily show this book to lack credibility. It certainly makes for good reading people able to accuse one of the Zionist groups of collaboration with Nazi Germany. It’s the sort of want material lefties dream of, where they fail to actually research many of the accusations made. Also  wrongly cast all Zionists as all following the same ideologies, political beliefs, religion etc. As seen earlier. Zionism has many variations, but fundamentally, without  the agreement of paying for exports. Would then as many of the 60,000 German  Jews, have then been able to migrate to the Mandate? Its seems very clear, that if they had of waited as other Jews, did. Whilst still applying to gain entry to other nations as refugees. Or hope the Anti-Nazi Boycott, would force the Nazi’s hand, to give better rights to Jews. Propves fundamentally, that boycotts really do not work. Even the boycotts of South Africa, never brought about the end of Apartheid. It would then have placed many of these German Jews left stuck now to late to find sanctuary elsehwhere

It really scares me to think, some of these hates, may actually and have done so, wished Hitler had won the war. Just imagine if Malta had been invaded, thus easy the supply to North Africa for the Axis. As stated, Rommel would not have then been hampered by a lack of reinforcements, lost in transportation. The door would have been open to the Middle East. How many more Jews would have then died?  Maybe some of the hate Brigade needs to seriously actually learn some real history for a start. Not the invented nonsense used to defend an low life like Ken Livingstone. As that makes you also complicit to his claims. Peace cannot come by others trying to do what the Nazi’s did before to the Jews. If you want to criticise proven wrongs done by Israel. That is acceptable, but downright comparisons to Nazi Germany, Apartheid,  Claiming Gaza is a concentration camp, hypocritically calling only for people to single out Israel with  Boycotts bans etc. Is sadly ensuring, that those that claims these lies are ultimately repeating history. Doing all that the Nazi's once did previously falsifying and inventing the most outrageous accusations. All of course to cast Israel to being worse that North Korea and ISIS.

You want peace, start by helping to push both sides to come to terms and sign a lasting treaty. For the security and future of people on both sides.

Do you know what is the worst thing about this whole shameful falsified accusation made by Livingston. As it was done in the defence of Nas Shah. Someone proven to be promoting antisemitism and thus racism. His motivation was to defend a racist by lying.  He sought to invent such a whopper of a lie, by accusing Zionism as comparable and complicit in evil as Nazism. Claiming Hitler was a Zionist. In order to excuse, deflect attention, render all Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists as far worse by association of Zionism to that of Nas Shah’s antisemitism. He would then share the very same beliefs as Hitler. Where they both justify and defend  people promoting hate through racism, by downgrading, deflecting and utterly lying about antisemitism itself .

How many times is Sassy going to continually go unchallenged,  by supposed righteous people on here? When she in the main posts up fabricated lies, in order to incite and promote hate against Israel. If fails to even be classed as any genuine criticism. If she did the same against Muslims, some on hear would have not refrain from speaking out and countering her. Though because there is only one Jewish state in existence, and the only real Democracy within the Middle East. Where the Israeli Arabs have more rights than Arabs do in any Arab majority nation. We sadly witness, by the same self righteous, remaining silent or worse defending such poor views

.I do not cast all Muslims are wrong and back progressive and secular Muslims to help bring Islam in the 21st century. I would not even cast all the people of a nation as wrong and complicit to wrongs done by a nation. Yet daily those driven from a desire of hate to see the destruction of Israel. They do not care at all about neither the Palestinians or Israeli’s. They do not want to have a solution, but constantly fuel and ensure the conflict continues.

I am glad some do challenge, but the fact some do not because they have been brainwashed by her lies over the years. May make people reconsider how they are constantly prejudge Israel and take for granted many falsified accusations labelled against Israel. You really have to ask, whether these same people driven to invent countless lies against Israel are indeed racist. As they constantly fail to hold a single Arab nation, its people, Government, laws, customs etc. To the same accountability as Israel and Israeli Jews.  I mean the very fact, Israel has had countless resolutions levelled against them by the UN, compared to the single one for Syria, is staggering. You really then have to question, if indeed those deciding to vastly and only condemn Israel.  If they do view Arab  as inferior. As this would be the only possible explanation for why so many human rights abuses by these nations are continually ignored. I really hope that is not the case, and that these people, are just blinded by their negative emotive head. I really think that the UN has ceased to be anything other that easily swayed and controlled by money and oil. The sooner we rid ourselves being reliant to this fuel source the better.

As  To the same Like I said, only two peoples can bring about a solution to this conflict and it has to come from a lasting agreement from the Palestinians and Israeli’s.

Where many here need some more historical lessons to further add to this very point and show further how they argue and show the worst double standards.
Look where sanctions, falsehoods, fabrications about Iraq led to.
The Iraq War
Yet as seen here the goal is very much the same, by making Israel out to be the world’s greatest evil. To the point of no return, that will lead to a withdrawal of support to Israel, which would then leave it very vulnerable to attack by Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah etc. Who’s goal, is the same, the destruction of Israel. Or even more extreme, that Israel is forced to pull out of the UN and the new Lefties that have been using the Bush mantra and methodology would be calling for war and the invasion of Israel.

I am only returning to simple for the majority of the time, correct falsified lies posted on this forum, mainly about the ones. That are motivated to dehumanise, delegitimize and promote hate against Israeli’s and Jews. You will not see me start many threads now. After the absurd accusations levelled at me. Kind of like what Israel goes through, by those driven by negativity.. I have decided to sit back away from many of the problematic situations.
Apologies for the long post, but after being wrongly accused of my posts only being C&P and not any opinion, well, then expect more of my replies now to be the same, just to further label how poor such a claim made was.

I shall leave you for now, with a statement.







Addressing the 2010 Conference on Combating Anti-Semitism, Hannah Rosenthal, the US State Department’s special envoy for monitoring antisemitism, spoke plainly:

[W]hat I hear from our 194 posts around the world, and from our close relationship with NGOs in the US in other nations, opposition to a policy by the State of Israel morphs into anti-Semitism easily and often. We record huge increases in anti-Semitism whenever there is activity in the Middle East. This form of anti-Semitism is more difficult for many to identify – but if all Jews are held responsible for the decisions of the sovereign State of Israel, when governments call upon and intimidate their Jewish communities to condemn Israeli actions, when academics from Israel are boycotted – this is not objecting to a policy – this is anti-Semitism. Our State Department uses Natan Sharansky’s framework for identifying when someone or a government crosses the line – when Israel is demonized, when Israel is held to different standards than the rest of the countries, and when Israel is delegitimized. These cases are not disagreements with a policy of Israel, this is anti-Semitism. The US is often the only “no” vote in international bodies who seem to have an obsession with condemning Israel.

Also from a noted Historian on the matter and published by the BBC as well, which is a surprise, showing many are appalled at his claim and revisionism.


But Mr Livingstone's version of history contained several errors, as Timothy Snyder, Yale University history professor and author of Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning, explains below.
It is inconceivable that Hitler could have wanted to move Jews to Israel, because there was no such place in 1932.
Using the word "Israel" when what is meant was "the British mandate of Palestine" has the unfortunate consequence of stripping away the actual historical context and putting the words "Hitler" and "Israel" in the same sentence.
Hitler was not a supporter of Zionism.
He believed, on the contrary, that Zionism was one of many deliberately deceptive labels that Jews placed upon what he believed to be their endless striving for global power and the extermination of the human species.
'Categorically false'
From Hitler's point of view, Jews were precisely not normal human beings because they did not care about territory, but cared only about global domination.
"He was supporting Zionism" is categorically false and reveals a total and fundamental misunderstanding of what Hitler's anti-Semitism was all about.
Tens of thousands of German Jews did emigrate to Palestine before British policy made this all but impossible. And some German officials did take an interest in Zionism. But there was never a German policy to support Zionism or a future Israel.
On the contrary, the German orientation in the Middle East was to support Arab nationalism. The official German policy, enunciated clearly in 1937, was to oppose the creation of a State of Israel.
'Logically inconceivable'
Before, during and after 1932, Hitler referred to the Jews as a problem for the entire world, not simply for Germany.
When the Holocaust took place, the vast majority of Jews killed were people who lived beyond Germany.
Both in theory and in practice, Hitler's extermination of Jews was international, applied to millions of people. For this reason as well, it is logically inconceivable that his ideas could ever have been limited to sending German Jews to Palestine.
Well before 1932, in his book Mein Kampf, Hitler had made clear that the Jews were, in his view, a "spiritual pestilence" that had to be removed from the face of the earth in order to rescue the human species, the natural order of the planet, and God's creation.
It was not clear just how this could be carried out; but there is no sense in which the idea of deporting Jews to Palestine is sufficient to this vision.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36165298