Has anyone seen them yet?

sphinx wrote:Oh and should not the whole thing be dependent on what the majority of the electorate want done anyway?

Sassy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Good evening Irn Bru.

If that's what you want to believe about immigration then do so.But not everyone thinks the same & immigration is one thing while creeping invasion is another.

Yep, they have been saying that for hundreds of years about everyone who has come here.

Sassy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Good evening Irn Bru.

If that's what you want to believe about immigration then do so.But not everyone thinks the same & immigration is one thing while creeping invasion is another.

Yep, they have been saying that for hundreds of years about everyone who has come here.

Shady wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Yep, they have been saying that for hundreds of years about everyone who has come here.

So what? Once upon a time the UKs population was much smaller than it is now which meant that immigrants were swallowed up,so to speak.

The UK is a totally different place to what it was years ago & has for time  been unable to cope with the increase in population.How many more people should the UK accept before you feel it's full Sassy?....Another 5 million? What about 100 million? Will you then say that's enough?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Shady wrote:

So what? Once upon a time the UKs population was much smaller than it is now which meant that immigrants were swallowed up,so to speak.

The UK is a totally different place to what it was years ago & has for time  been unable to cope with the increase in population.How many more people should the UK accept before you feel it's full Sassy?....Another 5 million? What about 100 million? Will you then say that's enough?

sassy, like a lot of old people, does not care any more.

It is the younger generation who have to worry, who have to work until we drop, who have to pay for the older generation's waste and mistakes.

Sassy wrote:People will come and people will go, its the way of the world.   Personally I'd take all the borders down.   I don't believe in nationalities, they are man made and cause dissent and bitterness.   And no, I don't think patriotism is a good thing either.   I'm a human being first and foremost who happened to be born in this country.   The world is my country, not this tiny little bit of it.

Irn Bru wrote:From November 2013

Centre for research and Analysis of Migration

Two separate research papers by UCL academics published today highlight the evidence of the fiscal costs and benefits of recent immigration to the UK, as well as the difficulties with the government’s net migration target.

Recent Immigration to the UK: New evidence of the fiscal costs and benefits

UK immigrants who arrived since 2000 are less likely to receive benefits and less likely to live in social housing than UK natives. What’s more, over the decade from 2001 to 2011, they made a considerable positive net contribution to the UK’s fiscal system, and thus helped to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers.

The positive contribution is particularly evident for UK immigrants from the European Economic Area (EEA – the European Union plus three small neighbours): they contributed about 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits over the period 2001-11.

More here...

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1113/05112013-ucl-migration-research-salt-dustmann

Sassy wrote:Well Shady, I just love Cornwall, lived in the West Country for 16 years.   The best pasties is from Fowey me lad, the swans are quite partial to them as well.

Sassy wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:From November 2013

Centre for research and Analysis of Migration

Two separate research papers by UCL academics published today highlight the evidence of the fiscal costs and benefits of recent immigration to the UK, as well as the difficulties with the government’s net migration target.

Recent Immigration to the UK: New evidence of the fiscal costs and benefits

UK immigrants who arrived since 2000 are less likely to receive benefits and less likely to live in social housing than UK natives. What’s more, over the decade from 2001 to 2011, they made a considerable positive net contribution to the UK’s fiscal system, and thus helped to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers.

The positive contribution is particularly evident for UK immigrants from the European Economic Area (EEA – the European Union plus three small neighbours): they contributed about 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits over the period 2001-11.

More here...

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1113/05112013-ucl-migration-research-salt-dustmann

There you go, what would we do without them.

Shady wrote:

Sassy wrote:Well Shady, I just love Cornwall, lived in the West Country for 16 years.   The best pasties is from Fowey me lad, the swans are quite partial to them as well.

Don't you read the signs missus? DON'T FEED THE BIRDS!! ESPECIALLY THE F---ING SEAGULLS!!

Where abouts did you live down here?

Irn Bru wrote:

Sassy wrote:

There you go, what would we do without them.

34% more in taxes!!!. Surely that will help pay for some new infrastructure and pensions.

Sassy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Don't you read the signs missus? DON'T FEED THE BIRDS!! ESPECIALLY THE F---ING SEAGULLS!!

Where abouts did you live down here?

Taunton, meant we could travel all over the West Country just about every weekend.  

Shady wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Taunton, meant we could travel all over the West Country just about every weekend.  

Sorry I misread your post.You actually lived in Somerset and not Cornwall......Did we ever meet?

Sassy wrote:

Shady wrote:

Sorry I misread your post.You actually lived in Somerset and not Cornwall......Did we ever meet?

Well, didn't notice a Pirate wandering around Lol.  

Shady wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Well, didn't notice a Pirate wandering around Lol.  

Perhaps I was wearing one of my other uniforms......(Remember.I'm always closer than you think).

BigAndy9 wrote:I'll know where to  look when I want to find any of this lot.

Any newspaper or court listings.

Catman wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:I'll know where to  look when I want to find any of this lot.

Any newspaper or court listings.

Yes...You ignore the majority which are white English criminals and just look for foreign names.  

Irn Bru wrote:

Catman wrote:

Yes...You ignore the majority which are white English criminals and just look for foreign names.  

Really Andy!!! Do you do that?

Sassy wrote:You have to ask? LOL

BigAndy9 wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Really Andy!!! Do you do that?

Oh no - any dirty little crim is a dirty little crim Iron.

The other posters know I see them but they like to be abusive towards me, that's all.

Irn Bru wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Oh no - any dirty little crim is a dirty little crim Iron.

The other posters know I see them but they like to be abusive towards me, that's all.

It is Andy and I'm sure your research will reflect that in your future posts on the subject of criminality

sphinx wrote:
Again it is not the "robbing of the country" which is the issue as it is false anyway.  Labour and the Liberals keep trying to keep the focus on things like this which are figments of their own imagination and not the reason there is a huge amount of concern from voters of all ilks.

The real concerns are that when if this man slips at his car washing job and suffers an injury he will visit a hospital - which has no more space than it did 10 years ago, and he will take up space, and use resources.  Use the same space and resources that were strained before he came here.  Multiply him by all the others like him.  It does not matter if every single one of them is a hard working law abiding citizen they will use water and produce sewage,  eat and produce rubbish, travel and take up space, possibly become ill and use resources.  Resources that are already more stretched than they were 10 years so that every person who lives in this land has to cope with less than 10 years ago.  If the government woke up tomorrow and decided to correct the neglect of infrastructure it would take at least 5 years and more likely much longer to bring services up to where they were 10 years ago.

Beekeeper wrote:

sphinx wrote:
Again it is not the "robbing of the country" which is the issue as it is false anyway.  Labour and the Liberals keep trying to keep the focus on things like this which are figments of their own imagination and not the reason there is a huge amount of concern from voters of all ilks.

The real concerns are that when if this man slips at his car washing job and suffers an injury he will visit a hospital - which has no more space than it did 10 years ago, and he will take up space, and use resources.  Use the same space and resources that were strained before he came here.  Multiply him by all the others like him.  It does not matter if every single one of them is a hard working law abiding citizen they will use water and produce sewage,  eat and produce rubbish, travel and take up space, possibly become ill and use resources.  Resources that are already more stretched than they were 10 years so that every person who lives in this land has to cope with less than 10 years ago.  If the government woke up tomorrow and decided to correct the neglect of infrastructure it would take at least 5 years and more likely much longer to bring services up to where they were 10 years ago.

 

WHAT A LOAD of fallacious and xenophobic crappola !!! 

Guess who obviously supports the policies of the BNP and EDL in her spare time..

IT would have made a lot more sense to point out that these under-paid "guest workers" are taking jobs that unemployed Brit's could have easily been doing ! Unfortunately, such softer truisms wouldn't fit so easily into Sphinx's racist-driven agenda here today..  

 

sphinx wrote:

Beekeeper wrote:
 

WHAT A LOAD of fallacious and xenophobic crappola !!! 

Guess who obviously supports the policies of the BNP and EDL in her spare time..

IT would have made a lot more sense to point out that these under-paid "guest workers" are taking jobs that unemployed Brit's could have easily been doing ! Unfortunately, such softer truisms wouldn't fit so easily into Sphinx's racist-driven agenda here today..  

 

Bee try reading all of my posts before making silly accusations - I have clearly stated on another post that our government and businesses are using the presence of immigrants as an excuse to avoid getting to grips with our unemployed.
Sorry that is a load of bullshit Sphinx, as stated the issue of those who go through life not wanting to study at School or get a job where they find many beneath them is the issue as plenty of jobs are being created and many immigrants will take them up as many Brits think they are beneath them. Thus the problem is an attitude problem as no job is beneath anyone. So your belief is very misguided on this factor

Immigrants mean saving money in the short term because they are cheaper than training our own, they can then be used to buffer the mid term as no training means high levels of unskilled that have no work ethic but the long term results of the policy are truly frightening.  One of the biggest reasons we have for getting control of our borders (please again note I use the term control not the hysterical term close) is to get some, hopefully a large portion, of our own unemployed actually working and earning.
That is wrong also again being as i come a large company where a high turn over of British staff has led not only my companies and others to seek those who are willing to take on work, and are reliable. The reality is many immigrants are actually over skilled to do many of these minimum paid jobs and are not afraid to do jobs that do not equal their qualifications. The reality is of those who work in the industrial side of the place I work for around 75% are foreign and this is not down to offering work to Brits, of which has happened, many are just not reliable and are only there until something better comes along, even though they are offered great opportunities to work there way up. Thus it is better to train immigrants who are more than willing to take on such work. No disrespect but you are not out in the real world to know what is going on in this situation

Mind you that would mean telling people no benefits unless they go and do hard unpleasant unskilled work and the same idiots that scream racism at wanting control of immigration get equally upset at the idea of people having their benefits withdrawn and them "forced" to do work that does not appeal to them.

sphinx wrote:That is my point didge - while firms can get immigrants and our government allows immigrants the Brits can get away with not wanting certain types of work - and that situation cannot be changed by only hitting one end of it.
How on earth do you change attitudes or force people to get work, when as seen in these situations they are unreliable? If you took the factor of immigration out of the situation companies would be setting up shop abroad in these nations, because it would not be so cost effective to say in he UK

At the moment we have a government trying to crack down on those who do not want the work but it will not work while employers can go elsewhere.  For the company that take the unwilling Brits say on job trials and find them unsatisfactory it is quicker and cheaper to let them go again and get the immigrant.  Meanwhile the job centres have to record that the person made the effort and went on the work trial but it did not work.
You still are missing the point many of these companies have taken on those who do not want to work and it is not cost affective, thus by taking away the immigrant factor the companies are thus left with many unreliable people which again is not cost effective as will cost them a fortune in having to constantly having to train staff and losing what is called missed Dollars, where fulfilments of say orders and productions have not been met. Thus the solution is not simple. Again if a company can move it resources elsewhere out of the UK, where labour is cheaper they will do and you may in fact make the matter worse. Yes i am all for Brits to work, but changing a poor attitude to work is no easy situation to resolve

Stop the immigrants and the companies have to take what is available and make it work and job centres do not have to offer trials but say there is a real job so no benefits for you which mean the unwilling have the choice of work to standard or no money.
As seen this is not a viable idea to many companies as it means they will have to face many old problems they once faced before and as seen you could in fact end up seeing places close down as it will be cheaper to either move and create a new industry elsewhere or where they are big amalgamate the work into overseas existing factories they have

The actual problem is of course far larger and more complex including as it does a school system that does its damnedest to promote everyones a winner, failure doesnt happen, there is no such thing as competition and however much effort people put in is enough effort.  However like all complex problems the solution requires action on several fronts and not over simplifying.  One of those fronts is we need to make immigration controlled not uncontrolled.

sphinx wrote:How on earth do these other countries manage to force attitudes that are willing to work?

Not all companies can move abroad - and where a lot do new ones will start up to fill the gap.  The fast food place cannot up and move because the customers cannot - and if they do someone else will open a new fast food place.
Many can as many are foreign in the first place, which will mean a great loss in industries and jobs for people 

You are missing the point that the reason "these people" do not want to work is because they have no driving reason to have to work.  They have grown up and always experienced a situation where not working has not been catastrophic.#
Sorry that again is bullshit, the reason they do not want to work is they grew up for years believing they were better off on benefits and even before then some thought that they could get by doing as little as possible

Training costs are large in short term (this is not limited to employers) but not training costs far higher in the long term.
You have no idea on training costs, for one person to be trained fully within a 3 month period can be anything from 1k to 3k per person, thus a high trun over of staff is not cost effective

The actual basic solution to the whole issue is to make it impossible to claim benefits while there are unskilled positions available.
That does not help the employer as they are still left with people who have an ethos in not doing a hard days work which for some reason you have not been able to answer, who constantly are late and don't even show up for worl, again meaning the company loses out on money big time   

 Unless and until we get a situation where being out of work is a total disaster and means going hungry and homeless we are not going to see people upping their game.
That again does not help the situation as above, people will still continue not to give a monkey's about the work they do, where as seen immigrants are more often than not to give a 100% 

 We shoot ourselves as a society in the foot by refusing to allow people to suffer consequences.  We are at base animals driven by normal survival instincts and normal survival instincts have a large streak of if something can be done using half energy why use whole energy doing it.
We do have consequences, but those who are sacked don't give a monkey's about it knowing they can claim benefits again, they then have to seek a job, get one then get the sack again, one vicious cycle


Or how about this for an idea - for every unskilled immigrant taking a job here then one unskilled unemployed who did not take the job is sent to the country the immigrant came from to experience the conditions that result in a willingness to work at anything

sphinx wrote:How on earth do these other countries manage to force attitudes that are willing to work?

Not all companies can move abroad - and where a lot do new ones will start up to fill the gap.  The fast food place cannot up and move because the customers cannot - and if they do someone else will open a new fast food place.

You are missing the point that the reason "these people" do not want to work is because they have no driving reason to have to work.  They have grown up and always experienced a situation where not working has not been catastrophic.

Training costs are large in short term (this is not limited to employers) but not training costs far higher in the long term.  

The actual basic solution to the whole issue is to make it impossible to claim benefits while there are unskilled positions available.  Unless and until we get a situation where being out of work is a total disaster and means going hungry and homeless we are not going to see people upping their game.  We shoot ourselves as a society in the foot by refusing to allow people to suffer consequences.  We are at base animals driven by normal survival instincts and normal survival instincts have a large streak of if something can be done using half energy why use whole energy doing it.

Or how about this for an idea - for every unskilled immigrant taking a job here then one unskilled unemployed who did not take the job is sent to the country the immigrant came from to experience the conditions that result in a willingness to work at anything

sphinx wrote:You dont get it do you didge?
Yes i do get it thanks Sphinx, mainly as I actually work within the industry 

The reason people become choosy in their work habits is because they do not experience of negative consequences when they are choose. (We are saying the same thing in different terms here I think)
Oh they do experience the consequences,. many just don't give a monkey's about them. as many will get the sack, then go back to claiming again, a vicious cycle 

In order to get people to become less choosy they need to learn that failing to work results in nasty things happening.
They already have this happen, so how has this changed anything, many will work on the side also, not informing of their work for cash in hand

No we cannot force people to leave their nations - we can make the consequences in this country as bad as in the countries the immigrants come from.
Can you? There is such things as going to far, maybe you can give examples within the EU where the consequences are do harsh?

It costs just as much to train an immigrant as a British person - the british persons work ethic is going to go right up if they know that no job means no money but for them to learn this requires the employers to engage as well.
Yes it cost the same to train short term , but in the long term it costs far less, as you do not have a high turn over of staff, you don't lose production time or loss on sickness or lateness.  

The only reason immigrants put in 100% is because they have experienced proper no work no food no shelter.
That is gobbledygook again and you are basing this on what exactly when most come here educated with many have degree's?

 Cutting benefits to people where there is work available will mean they learn the same lesson.  Making it so that people who have been fired cannot claim benefits will teach the same lesson.
No it won't they will just either go criminal or black market work, we have seen before how this has actually happened in the past when there was little benefits, people would actually trun more to criminal types of work

Unless of course you think that Brits are lazy good for nothings because of their race and immigrants are hard workers because of their race

Joy Division wrote:I'm not picking on you here, but for the past few years since I've known you, you have not worked..and have been on incapacity benefit, you say you are looking at option like IT work, but what has happened there Sphinx?..

It will do your mind and body good to find work which pays you, and by your own admission...it pays you to work,or does it pay you to be on incapacity benefit?..in fact I don't know what to believe as I've heard you say I the last it's easy enough to get by on benefits , then I've heard you say it lays to work....

Which one is it Sphinx?

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:You dont get it do you didge?
Yes i do get it thanks Sphinx, mainly as I actually work within the industry 

The reason people become choosy in their work habits is because they do not experience of negative consequences when they are choose. (We are saying the same thing in different terms here I think)
Oh they do experience the consequences,. many just don't give a monkey's about them. as many will get the sack, then go back to claiming again, a vicious cycle 

In order to get people to become less choosy they need to learn that failing to work results in nasty things happening.
They already have this happen, so how has this changed anything, many will work on the side also, not informing of their work for cash in hand

No we cannot force people to leave their nations - we can make the consequences in this country as bad as in the countries the immigrants come from.
Can you? There is such things as going to far, maybe you can give examples within the EU where the consequences are do harsh?

It costs just as much to train an immigrant as a British person - the british persons work ethic is going to go right up if they know that no job means no money but for them to learn this requires the employers to engage as well.
Yes it cost the same to train short term , but in the long term it costs far less, as you do not have a high turn over of staff, you don't lose production time or loss on sickness or lateness.  

The only reason immigrants put in 100% is because they have experienced proper no work no food no shelter.
That is gobbledygook again and you are basing this on what exactly when most come here educated with many have degree's?

 Cutting benefits to people where there is work available will mean they learn the same lesson.  Making it so that people who have been fired cannot claim benefits will teach the same lesson.
No it won't they will just either go criminal or black market work, we have seen before how this has actually happened in the past when there was little benefits, people would actually trun more to criminal types of work

Unless of course you think that Brits are lazy good for nothings because of their race and immigrants are hard workers because of their race

Never even said that, i said an element of people in this country are, many are hard working, study and work hard at school and in employment, though as stated we are talking about an element within society  

sphinx wrote:


OK I believe somewhere called "Romania" is in the EU.  Could you please research for me what happens to unemployed people in Romania and let me know if that is "too harsh"
Why me, are you incapable?

As for working on the "black economy" well if people were not able to claim benefits then this economy would no longer be black and these people would be working would they not?
No it would be criminal as it was in the past would it not?

I have never understood the theory that people working on the side were "not working" - sure they are stealing benefits they are not entitled to because they are working but they are definitely working.  Do you think jobs on the black economy involve less work or less skill?
It is if they are not paying any tax or NI.

Oh and I hate to say this but there is an equal element among immigrants are lazy and workshy.  There are those who do come here to claim the benefits.  Not it is not all immigrants any more than all unemployed here are lazy and workshy but they do exist.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:


OK I believe somewhere called "Romania" is in the EU.  Could you please research for me what happens to unemployed people in Romania and let me know if that is "too harsh"
Why me, are you incapable?

As for working on the "black economy" well if people were not able to claim benefits then this economy would no longer be black and these people would be working would they not?
No it would be criminal as it was in the past would it not?

I have never understood the theory that people working on the side were "not working" - sure they are stealing benefits they are not entitled to because they are working but they are definitely working.  Do you think jobs on the black economy involve less work or less skill?
It is if they are not paying any tax or NI.

Oh and I hate to say this but there is an equal element among immigrants are lazy and workshy.  There are those who do come here to claim the benefits.  Not it is not all immigrants any more than all unemployed here are lazy and workshy but they do exist.

Not EU immigrants, they have the highest rate of those employed and the least seeking benefits.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Not EU immigrants, they have the highest rate of those employed and the least seeking benefits.

When has it been illegal to do a couple of weeks work bringing the harvest in?
It is illegal to claim benefits at the time you are doing it
It might be illegal to not pay tax and NI on it (it would depend on whether the work was declared to these bodies.
If someone is not paying Tax and NI, then they are not contributing to society and is wrong, end of story, where others are

So please tell my why if local benefits offices go right there are x unskilled vacancies in the area less than that number of people claiming unemployment benefits so we are not going to pay any unemployment benefits why any work those not getting benefits will be illegal.
Sorry that made no sense at all

The illegal parts of the so called black economy involve people working when are claiming unemployment.  Those people are still working.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

When has it been illegal to do a couple of weeks work bringing the harvest in?
It is illegal to claim benefits at the time you are doing it
It might be illegal to not pay tax and NI on it (it would depend on whether the work was declared to these bodies.
If someone is not paying Tax and NI, then they are not contributing to society and is wrong, end of story, where others are

So please tell my why if local benefits offices go right there are x unskilled vacancies in the area less than that number of people claiming unemployment benefits so we are not going to pay any unemployment benefits why any work those not getting benefits will be illegal.
Sorry that made no sense at all

The illegal parts of the so called black economy involve people working when are claiming unemployment.  Those people are still working.

It matters little if they are claiming or not, they are not paying NI or tax.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

It matters little if they are claiming or not, they are not paying NI or tax.

No someone can be working and not paying tax and/or NI and be perfectly legal so long as their work and earnings are declared

Or are you saying that my four children have been breaking the law with their paper rounds?