Pupils must know all times tables by age 11...children to be tested on their multiplication skills in new exams next year

They should never have been abandoned, now our government are reinstalling them back into our schools curriculum, good move and while they are doing it they can teach kids how to talk properly, no fink and fort.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/12078695/Pupils-must-know-all-times-tables-by-age-11.html

When I was at School,[no, we didn't use chalk and slates] first thing every morning we had to go through our "tables"

Times tables are the staple of basic arithmatics! They should be learning them by age seven at least.
I knew all my times tables by age eight.

This country is incredibly backward when it comes to education.

Too true Eddie, I started my children learning their tables at around six years old, likewise my Grandchildren.

It's amazing that this has even been dropped in the fist place!!!


And seen more amazing that there are idiot lefties out there complaining that this is too tough on the kids!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:It's amazing that this has even been dropped in the fist place!!!


And seen more amazing that there are idiot lefties out there complaining that this is too tough on the kids!!!

really who exactly ? or is this just another blame everything on the "leftys

And i don`t think teaching times tables have/where dropped from teaching certainly not in Scotland my kids where taught them

Sunday morning on tv, a lefty teacher saying there's no need to teach tables as children will learn as they go along? Interviewer asked him "whats 11x 12, he answered 122, nuf sed!

At what point were they dropped? They were still being taught to kids in the early-mid 90s.

Eilzel wrote:At what point were they dropped? They were still being taught to kids in the early-mid 90s.

pretty sure they weren't dropped so don't know what he is on about

nicko wrote:Sunday morning on tv,   a lefty teacher saying there's no need to teach tables as children will learn as they go along?  Interviewer asked him "whats 11x 12, he answered 122,  nuf sed!

so one womans opinion equates to every "lefty"does it ?

no kOBYN, THE LEFTY MORON WAS ONE OF OUR TEACHERS"

ps, The "teacher" was a man who's supposed to be intelligent who doesn't know his Mathes, and stop trying to make excuses when we all saw his mistake.

The lefties are arguing of the danger of our junior schools turning into "exam factories"...


This was dropped like so many other things as labour dumbed down education throughout.

The danger of exam factories... what a load of bollocks!!!

nicko wrote:no kOBYN,   THE LEFTY MORON WAS ONE OF OUR TEACHERS"    

your shouting because ?

And excuses ? what excuses

nicko wrote:ps, The "teacher" was a man who's supposed to be intelligent who doesn't know his Math`s,  and stop trying to make excuses when we all saw his mistake.

Math`s isn`t your times table .tables are arithmetic although as i remember my school days it all came under the same heading in English schools yet in Scotland its two separate subjects

Arithmetic or arithmetics , is the oldest and most elementary branch of mathematics. It consists of the study of numbers, especially the properties of the traditional operations between them—addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.


Mathematicians seek out patterns and use them to formulate new conjectures.


And knowing your tables has no bearing on intelligence its more to do with memory

i myself can`t recite my times tables but i can do "math"
yet i still have marine engineering degree and various computer engineering qualifications, Microsoft and Cisco qualified

so equating the ability to recite your times tables to intelligence is just bullshit

nicko wrote:ps, The "teacher" was a man who's supposed to be intelligent who doesn't know his Mathes,  and stop trying to make excuses when we all saw his mistake.

perhaps you should read this instead of shouting and spelling my name wrong Pricko nicko





Times tables are not how you teach maths’
Professor Jo Boaler stirred up a storm last week with radical suggestions for tackling 'maths anxiety’ in schools. Peter Stanford reports

Professor Jo Boaler may have moved halfway across the globe five years ago to become Professor of Mathematics Education at Stanford University in California, but she continues to take a keen interest in how numeracy is taught back home.

Last week, her call for Britain to stop testing young children on their ability to recite times tables – because it causes “crippling fear” and “puts them off maths” Very true from personal experience  – prompted a backlash from fellow academics who believe the opposite.

“Research has pinpointed the onset of 'maths anxiety’ around the age of eight,” she explains, “when they start doing times tables tests. They are all about speed and memory. If someone isn’t fast at doing them, they get the idea they aren’t good at maths and they lose confidence.”

That in its turn sends them on to secondary school with a view that “maths isn’t for them”.

Prof Boaler, whose book The Elephant in the Classroom remains a bible for many maths’ teachers, is clear that being “good” at times tables should never be equated with being “good at maths”.

“We know that speed and the ability to memorise is not a good indicator of maths potential. So to see this policy being pushed in Britain now is simply heartbreaking.”


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/12045884/Times-tables-are-not-how-you-teach-maths.html

There's no getting around the fact that people don't think clearly or learn as well when they're anxious and fearful, and no classroom should be fostering that kind of environment.

Also, memorizing times tables is a memory skill, not a math skill. Not to say it's not handy to know, but it does not demonstrate any understanding of multiplication.

When kids are leaving secondary school with a bunch of qualifications but struggle to perform basic numeracy and literacy skills... then something is clearly wrong!


When I was at junior school we occasionally had an hour where we each had to draw out a times table box of squares with 1 to 10 or 1 to 12 along the top and down the side and then fill in the numbers inside... it was made into a little race between us all with the top 10 finishers getting names up on a little league on the board...

Then the teacher would go through all the numbers for everyone and that was it for a couple of weeks when we would get the task again.

Sometimes the numbers across top and side would be in different order to force us to actually think about working out the sums rather than just being learned and repeated parrot fashion. 

We also learned long multiplication and division, fractions and decimals etc...


What is wrong with this being taught now?

Ben_Reilly wrote:There's no getting around the fact that people don't think clearly or learn as well when they're anxious and fearful, and no classroom should be fostering that kind of environment.

Also, memorizing times tables is a memory skill, not a math skill. Not to say it's not handy to know, but it does not demonstrate any understanding of multiplication.

I was diagnosed with discalcula in my 30s perhaps if that had been understood when i was in school it could have been addressed
but i was often classed as thick or stupid or just lazy because i could not do my tables and always dreaded "math`s" class in school
it wasn`t till i was a lot older that i learned not to care less what others thought that i improved but as i said still cant do most of them ,yest they are some i can do but not the way it was taught
whole numbers 2,5,10 i can do but the others i can only do about 5 iterations

unfortunately i am unable to keep 4 numbers in my head especially when reciting the tables and get confused easily when i try
As a child it had a big impact on my confidence at the time and felt i was stupid

yes they should and are taught in schools but its not the be all and end all

Tommy Monk wrote:When kids are leaving secondary school with a bunch of qualifications but struggle to perform basic numeracy and literacy skills... then something is clearly wrong!


When I was at junior school we occasionally had an hour where we each had to draw out a times table box of squares with 1 to 10 or 1 to 12 along the top and down the side and then fill in the numbers inside... it was made into a little race between us all with the top 10 finishers getting names up on a little league on the board...

Then the teacher would go through all the numbers for everyone and that was it for a couple of weeks when we would get the task again.

Sometimes the numbers across top and side would be in different order to force us to actually think about working out the sums rather than just being learned and repeated parrot fashion. 

We also learned long multiplication and division, fractions and decimals etc...


What is wrong with this being taught now?

Nothing and it is still taught where you seem to get this opinion that they are not taught anymore is beyond me

the government "plan" is not to reinstate the teaching of the times table as they have never to my knowledge been scrapped as a teaching method
rather that All 11 year olds are to be tested on their times tables before they leave primary school - with the exams taken against the clock.

ps you cant be tested on something not being taught

nicko wrote:When I was at School,[no, we didn't use chalk and slates] first thing every morning we had to go through our "tables"

chisel and tablet of stone?
papyrus?
clay tablet written in cuneiform?

Ben_Reilly wrote:There's no getting around the fact that people don't think clearly or learn as well when they're anxious and fearful, and no classroom should be fostering that kind of environment.

Also, memorizing times tables is a memory skill, not a math skill. Not to say it's not handy to know, but it does not demonstrate any understanding of multiplication.

Rubbish. .. not so long ago classrooms operated totally on discipline and kids were always 'in line' and completely because they were made to feel a little bit anxious and fearful of the authority of the teacher, head teacher and school... (as well as what their mother/father would say/do to them if they played up at school and resulted in parents being contacted!!!), and it is a well known fact that kids were of a much higher educated standard back then!!!


And that was with only a blackboard and chalk and a few text books... none of the unnecessary distractions of today's so called 'learning tools' and none of the experimental new fangled teaching methods etc.


Also... my previous example of times table exercises is not memorising parrot fashion at all... we were left to fill in the squares ourselves as individuals and by working out each sum ourselves... that is definitely doing the maths...


Eventually they were learned by heart and memorised but because we all worked out each sum so many times each ourselves.

nicko wrote:ps, The "teacher" was a man who's supposed to be intelligent who doesn't know his Mathes,  and stop trying to make excuses when we all saw his mistake.

!.
1 you made no indication of gender
2 we all saw his mistake ? did we ?
3 i certainly saw on sky news morning papers review something similar
but that was a woman and the bloke wasn`t a teacher and pretty sure the woman wasn`t one ether
and put on the spot lots of people make mistakes are you telling us you never do ?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:There's no getting around the fact that people don't think clearly or learn as well when they're anxious and fearful, and no classroom should be fostering that kind of environment.

Also, memorizing times tables is a memory skill, not a math skill. Not to say it's not handy to know, but it does not demonstrate any understanding of multiplication.

Rubbish. .. not so long ago classrooms operated totally on discipline and kids were always 'in line' and completely because they were made to feel a little bit anxious and fearful of the authority of the teacher, head teacher and school... (as well as what their mother/father would say/do to them if they played up at school and resulted in parents being contacted!!!), and it is a well known fact that kids were of a much higher educated standard back then!!!


And that was with only a blackboard and chalk and a few text books... none of the unnecessary distractions of today's so called 'learning tools' and none of the experimental new fangled teaching methods etc.


Also... my previous example of times table exercises is not memorising parrot fashion at all... we were left to fill in the squares ourselves as individuals and by working out each sum ourselves... that is definitely doing the maths...


Eventually they were learned by heart and memorised but because we all worked out each sum so many times each ourselves.

wrong,that doing arithmetic not math !!!!
Don`t you know the difference ?

If, instead of "free association" class rooms or whatever they are called with kids sat round tables or on bean bags all doing whatever tickles their fancy..( a "typical 5 to 7 yo school ) there was a bit more

"sit down, shut up , face front, now repeat after me "one two is two , two twos are four............"
every day...there would BE no problem, (with perhaps the exception of firstly, those with certain recognised learning dificulties, who should then get the help they need, and those who unfortunately cannot learn due to serious deficiencies(who should then be given "alternative teaching"))

moreover some of the "modern methods " are crazy....my grand son had some homework

it took me over an hour to understand from the example what exactly the teacher wanted him to do ....

it turned out that simple subtraction was FAR easier (and the "correct" way to do it by ANY standard)

what ever dozy idea they were promulgating was pure idiocy and somebodys "pet idea" (yet again)

it seems that they now have to first learn this "new method" and THEN the "proper way"

there was a farce with reading about 30 years ago , where they had to learn " phonetic reading" THEN relearn "normal reading"

guess which bunch of tits engendered that....

BTW...I spent a hour yesterday teaching my grandson...who is only 9 "scientific notation, and how it works

you know when you see 1 million ...1,000,000 writen as 1 x 10^6

he "got it" within that time...AND incidently, learned the basics of "powers" though that WASNT the main intent.

the teacher is gonna whinge mightily ...I just know it...but screw em.....

Tommy Monk wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:There's no getting around the fact that people don't think clearly or learn as well when they're anxious and fearful, and no classroom should be fostering that kind of environment.

Also, memorizing times tables is a memory skill, not a math skill. Not to say it's not handy to know, but it does not demonstrate any understanding of multiplication.

Rubbish. .. not so long ago classrooms operated totally on discipline and kids were always 'in line' and completely because they were made to feel a little bit anxious and fearful of the authority of the teacher, head teacher and school... (as well as what their mother/father would say/do to them if they played up at school and resulted in parents being contacted!!!), and it is a well known fact that kids were of a much higher educated standard back then!!!


And that was with only a blackboard and chalk and a few text books... none of the unnecessary distractions of today's so called 'learning tools' and none of the experimental new fangled teaching methods etc.


Also... my previous example of times table exercises is not memorising parrot fashion at all... we were left to fill in the squares ourselves as individuals and by working out each sum ourselves... that is definitely doing the maths...


Eventually they were learned by heart and memorised but because we all worked out each sum so many times each ourselves.

Bullshit. Kids feel relaxed and comfortable in a classroom run by a competent teacher who knows how to maintain classroom discipline. That's not done by being a tyrant, but by being a reliable, consistent authority figure.

Kids don't learn as well if they fear their teacher.

I have no problem with memorizing times tables! I just think it's important to understand that alone doesn't demonstrate any math proficiency. The exercise you described sounds like the teacher actually made it about problem-solving rather than memorization.

Lord Foul wrote:If, instead of "free association" class rooms or whatever they are called with kids sat round tables or on bean bags all doing whatever tickles their fancy..( a "typical 5 to 7 yo school )   there was a bit more

"sit down,  shut up , face front, now repeat after me "one two is two , two twos are four............"
every day...there would BE no problem, (with perhaps the exception of firstly, those with certain recognised learning dificulties, who should then get the help they need, and those who unfortunately cannot learn due to serious deficiencies(who should then be given "alternative teaching"))

moreover some of the "modern methods " are crazy....my grand son had some homework

it took me over an hour to understand from the example what exactly the teacher wanted him to do ....

it turned out that simple subtraction was FAR easier (and the "correct" way to do it by ANY standard)

what ever dozy idea they were promulgating was pure idiocy and somebodys "pet idea" (yet again)

it seems that they now have to first learn this "new method" and THEN the "proper way"

there was a farce with reading about 30 years ago , where they had to learn " phonetic reading" THEN relearn "normal reading"

guess which bunch of tits engendered that....

BTW...I spent a hour yesterday teaching my grandson...who is only 9 "scientific notation, and how it works

you know when you see 1 million ...1,000,000 writen as 1 x 10^6

he "got it" within that time...AND incidently, learned the basics of "powers" though that WASNT the main intent.

the teacher is gonna whinge mightily ...I just know it...but screw em.....

Haha, the farce in my education was "normal" (we call it "whole word") reading ... it finally clicked for me when my mom taught me phonetic ("phonics"). If you ask me, it's a lot easier to learn some basic rules, then learn the exceptions (and learn how to fill in the gaps with context clues) than it is to learn every word in the dictionary on its own.

Kd arithmetic is part of mathematics.


And Vic. .. the teacher probably won't like it because now he knows a bit more than the others and that must not be allowed under the equality agenda where they must all be the same level as the lowest level kid in the class so all can be told they are winners while making most to be losing out on the higher achievements of their abilities.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Rubbish. .. not so long ago classrooms operated totally on discipline and kids were always 'in line' and completely because they were made to feel a little bit anxious and fearful of the authority of the teacher, head teacher and school... (as well as what their mother/father would say/do to them if they played up at school and resulted in parents being contacted!!!), and it is a well known fact that kids were of a much higher educated standard back then!!!


And that was with only a blackboard and chalk and a few text books... none of the unnecessary distractions of today's so called 'learning tools' and none of the experimental new fangled teaching methods etc.


Also... my previous example of times table exercises is not memorising parrot fashion at all... we were left to fill in the squares ourselves as individuals and by working out each sum ourselves... that is definitely doing the maths...


Eventually they were learned by heart and memorised but because we all worked out each sum so many times each ourselves.

Bullshit. Kids feel relaxed and comfortable in a classroom run by a competent teacher who knows how to maintain classroom discipline. That's not done by being a tyrant, but by being a reliable, consistent authority figure.

Kids don't learn as well if they fear their teacher.

I have no problem with memorizing times tables! I just think it's important to understand that alone doesn't demonstrate any math proficiency. The exercise you described sounds like the teacher actually made it about problem-solving rather than memorization.

The teacher did make it about us all having to do the sums by ourselves but after doing this a number of times... was also memorised.

As for teaching with discipline... it wasn't necessarily being intentionally frightening but just that the atmosphere of compliance and authority was installed... and you only have to check up UK schools a few decades ago to see what I mean and the standards produced were much higher.

the whole mindset of the education system is wrong with this policy
it is completely focused on the already proven failed methodology of the 'none left behind' policies that have failed here and in the USA.

Education should be more focused towards maximizing a child's natural Aptitudes if they are mathematically minded than memorizing timetables is useless, i never did as i could just work it out fast enough (this made it much easier when we moved to larger numbers and more complex maths) If they are literary minded than they will always struggle with maths so should be taught to use a calculator and spend more time and resources on maximizing their literary skills, which they are more likely to use in employment latter in life since that is what they are naturally geared towards. similarly with artistically or mechanically minded students. Technology and the new learn environments it can create allows for much more fluid movement between education streams so students can get the most out of their education through customization to their personal abilities. why waste 100's of hours on something they will only need if they follow a handful of career paths, which the majority wont? that time can be better spent teaching them towards careers they are more likely to succeed at in adult life.

@tommy
it was a waste of time, I can remember the teachers saying you wont always have a calculator in your pocket... yet we do... pretty much all of us carry around in our pocket more computing power than was used in the Apollo moon landings. you can literally get that much computing power strapped to your wrist.

true veya...but for normal everyday calculations ...like monetary transactions, simple stuff ...I can give the answer quicker than you can pull up your shirt sleeve and press the buttons, AND i look a lot less like an ignoramus doing so....

Teach them the quick routes to working out numbers, methods etc, learning by rote doesn't make you understand the principles.

Lord Foul wrote:true veya...but for normal everyday calculations ...like monetary transactions, simple stuff ...I can give the answer quicker than you can pull up your shirt sleeve and press the buttons, AND i look a lot less like an ignoramus doing so....

So can I and was tested as in the top 0.1% of the population in maths, but I don't use tables, I use the quick routes.

We have more computing power in our heads and need to be shown how to use it.

sassy wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:true veya...but for normal everyday calculations ...like monetary transactions, simple stuff ...I can give the answer quicker than you can pull up your shirt sleeve and press the buttons, AND i look a lot less like an ignoramus doing so....

So can I and was tested as in the top 0.1% of the population in maths, but I don't use tables, I use the quick routes.

i dont...for most simple things...I just know...

I hear 7 x 9 and "see" 63

maybe its down to my facility with language...

I "may" be treating arithmetic as a sort of language (which actually it is when you think about it)

Lord Foul wrote:

sassy wrote:


So can I and was tested as in the top 0.1% of the population in maths, but I don't use tables, I use the quick routes.

i dont...for most simple things...I just know...



I hear 7 x 9 and "see" 63

Yep, so do i, but not from tables.  It flashes up, without any thought 70 - 7, and that's what I 'see'.


I can remember a long sequence of numbers because I relate them to each other.  It's just mind tricks, same as tables.  But tables don't teach you 'why'.

Lord Foul wrote:maybe its down to my facility with language...

I "may" be treating arithmetic as a sort of language (which actually it is when you think about it)

Agreed, it is, and that's what children should be taught.

Lord Foul wrote:true veya...but for normal everyday calculations ...like monetary transactions, simple stuff ...I can give the answer quicker than you can pull up your shirt sleeve and press the buttons, AND i look a lot less like an ignoramus doing so....

yes but you are mathematically minded it allows some one that is not to get by if they can't.

and there is still going to be a degree of teaching everyone the basics but there is no need to stress the kid and make them hate school and education by forcing them to spend huge amounts of time struggling with things they are to not personally geared towards.
If you can succeed in making them enjoy school and value education early in life then the rest will be easier to teach later when they acknowledge the value.

Tommy Monk wrote:We have more computing power in our heads and need to be shown how to use it.

not for mathematics. people can keep up with the simple things but not once you get more complex and like victor said the slowest thing is the human pressing the keys
no human can match the arithmetic logic unit found in the CPU of even a cheap Chinese smartphone.

where the human brain exceeds is art, language and creativity. we are better with abstract concepts but computers are better with real numbers. the smartest path is to work in synergy with the tools we have created. a Computer is in some ways an intellectual hammer and chisel, it is just another tool that allows us to create things including other tools.. thus the process of technological progress

Lord Foul wrote:

sassy wrote:


So can I and was tested as in the top 0.1% of the population in maths, but I don't use tables, I use the quick routes.

i dont...for most simple things...I just know...

I hear 7 x 9 and "see" 63

i have learned some tricks over the years one is multiplying by 9 using my fingers

for example 7x 9
look at both your hands
put the seventh finger down (counting from the left )
this gives you the answer

you have 6 fingers up on one side of the finger that is down ie the tens

And 3 fingers up on the other side of the finger that is down ie  the units

answer 7x 9 = 63

simples

If the other kids in the class saw you counting on your fingers you'd be laughed out of School!

nicko wrote:If the other kids in the class saw you counting on your fingers you'd be laughed out of School!

so that point really nicely illustrates  the point about stress and fear some children have about arithmetic from fear of ridicule from there peers and class mates

thanks


ps and your not as such  counting on your fingers in fact all your doing is reading the answer from your hands by putting one finger down Christ you can even do it with out looking at your hands

I wish I was as clever as you!

I think the times tables learning also helped to give you an alert, quick mind.

We were made to stand up in class and recite them.

Strange how your silly spelling has suddenly disappeared, your teachers obviously did a better job on that than you pretend lol

I firmly believe the little bleeduz should be tort tu speke propurly.
You hear that disgusting slangy gabble even on TV and in shops, it soundz orful.

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:We have more computing power in our heads and need to be shown how to use it.

not for mathematics. people can keep up with the simple things but not once you get more complex and like victor said the slowest thing is the human pressing the keys
no human can match the arithmetic logic unit found in the CPU of even a cheap Chinese smartphone.

where the human brain exceeds is art, language and creativity. we are better with abstract concepts but computers are better with real numbers. the smartest path is to work in synergy with the tools we have created. a Computer is in some ways an intellectual hammer and chisel, it is just another tool that allows us to create things including other tools.. thus the process of technological progress

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/163051-simulating-1-second-of-human-brain-activity-takes-82944-processors


http://www.mindpowernews.com/BrainVsComputer.htm

nicko wrote:I wish I was as clever as you!

so do i