British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications

by Guest Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Authorities in Australia thought they were "very ready" for a smoking ban to kick-in at a remand prison in the state of Victoria on July 1.
The ban came with 18-months notice and the government had worked with anti-smoking group Quit Victoria to tailor programs specifically for inmates. And it appeared to be working. On June 30, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported that just 10 percent of inmates would be going cold turkey when the ban came into force the following day. Previously, it was thought that 85 percent of them smoked, so if nothing else, before the ban even came into effect, authorities had cut smoking-rates by 75 percent. But that very day inmates at Ravenhall Prison chose a fitting way to let politicians in the nation's capital, Canberra, some 660km (410miles) away, know what they really thought of the ban - they sent a smoke signal. -Plumes of black smoke could be seen billowing from the correctional facility around midday, after fires were lit in cells, and outdoor wheelie bins were set ablaze. Two further fires were lit at the nearby Port Phillip Prison.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/27/riot-fears-over-uk-prison-smoking-ban_n_7879234.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Very interesting article with lots to read.
Smoking is most definately a privilege for a prisoner and I am stunned they are still allowed to smoke inside their cells.
Like everyone else throughout the UK there should be smoking areas outside for them. That would be the best compremise, but am stunned they have smoking privileges over law abiding citizens.

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:11 pm

eddie wrote:Isn't is fair to say that prisoners should have less rights than non-offenders through?
If the smoking in their cells is affecting staff then why shouldn't it be abolished?

The same laws should be applied to prisons as it is to any public place.

So what if they riot? Should there be a backdown 'just in case they riot'?

Under the law people are sent to prison AS a punishment Not to be punished.
As you know I'm not on the side of the perps but all this would do is put the lives of PCOs at risk. Something like this would cost a fortune to implement.

by eddie Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:13 pm

Nems wrote:
eddie wrote:Isn't is fair to say that prisoners should have less rights than non-offenders through?
If the smoking in their cells is affecting staff then why shouldn't it be abolished?

The same laws should be applied to prisons as it is to any public place.

So what if they riot? Should there be a backdown 'just in case they riot'?

Under the law people are sent to prison AS a punishment Not to be punished.
As you know I'm not on the side of the perps but all this would do is put the lives of PCOs at risk. Something like this would cost a fortune to implement.

Yes I can see that, and I can see the problem that it could, and undoubtedly would, cause the prison wardens.
But I still think that a prison should be treated like a public place and smoking should be kept for outside and a small part of the communal area perhaps.

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:15 pm

eddie wrote:
Nems wrote:

Under the law people are sent to prison AS a punishment Not to be punished.
As you know I'm not on the side of the perps but all this would do is put the lives of PCOs at risk. Something like this would cost a fortune to implement.

Yes I can see that, and I can see the problem that it could, and undoubtedly would, cause the prison wardens.
But I still think that a prison should be treated like a public place and smoking should be kept for outside and a small part of the communal area perhaps.

Don't get me wrong I agree but there is not the capacity in the system, it's a meaningless sound bite

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:18 pm

Well, if we starve and render homeless a few more disabled and unwaged, then we can afford to pay for more PCO's cant we.

oh wait...no we cant, becasue its needed for all those "poor" immigrants....

by eddie Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:19 pm

victorismyhero wrote:Well, if we starve and render homeless a few more disabled and unwaged, then we can afford to pay for more PCO's cant we.

oh wait...no we cant, becasue its needed for all those "poor" immigrants....

What's Ede got to do with it? scratch

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:20 pm

eh?

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:32 pm

victorismyhero wrote:eh?

I think Eddie has had a wee refreshment!

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:36 pm

mushroom brandy no doubt Laughing

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:38 pm

victorismyhero wrote:mushroom brandy no doubt

LOL, on the 'goodnight thread' schnapps and peach. Expect she is munching mushrooms though!

by eddie Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:40 pm

Pffffft!!

He wrote:

"oh ...no we cant, becasue its eed for all those "poor" immigrants...."

Then he edited it!

Oh bollocks to you all pfffff

British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 3201073460

British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 3201073460

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:42 pm

eddie wrote:Pffffft!!

He wrote:

"oh ...no we cant, becasue its eed for all those "poor" immigrants...."

Then he edited it!

Oh bollocks to you all pfffff

Poor Edds lol
British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 2089010162

by eddie Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:43 pm

I saw it I tells ya!

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:49 pm

schnaps goggles

next thing you will be seeing aliens.....

alien

by Irn Bru Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:05 pm

victorismyhero wrote:schnaps goggles

next thing you will be seeing aliens.....

Horrible stuff. First tried it in Denmark - never again.

by eddie Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:36 pm

Pfff I'm off to bed you're all 'orrible

by Guest Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:39 pm

Beam her up spotty
beam me up

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:43 am

Nems wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

If you act stupid i will call you out as so.
You wanted to know if I have served time when I have already stated that I have.
You want to make it personal and I have some daft scatty mornaic woman try and tell me about prison.
Priclesss stupidity

I was done and served six months for the stupidity of footie violence

Does that make your fucking day you prat?

Wow actually I didn't know you had been in prison, I wouldn't have said that if I had known. I rarely take much notice of what you say I certainly don't store it up. You have made my night though, a fucking thug sent to prison over football violence and you have the fucking audacity to try and Lord it on chat forums.
Don't know what a morn aid is but I know what a thug is. Hahahaha
All together now
"the warden threw a party in the county jail"

So you are saying a person who has commited a crime has to never learn from this and always suffer.
Glad this brings you amusment, I am not ashamed, in fact learn from those who leanr by their mistakes because the experence the wrongs they have done. So to claim I cannot say I can lord it on forums is hilarious.,
Please provide your reasons why I should not?

by veya_victaous Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:13 am

lol Convict lol!

too late to get deported to paradise

I though it was you that said something to me when i admitted being arrested confused

at least I ponied up for lawyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEB0l6OqLR4

I find your views even odder now confused

how old are you 40's 50's? is this a long time ago?

And don't take it as an insult i have said I Generally prefer criminals to cops since they are more trust worthy. British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 479860004

British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 479860004

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:16 am

veya_victaous wrote:lol Convict too late to get deported to paradise

I though it was you that said something to me when i admitted being arrested at least I ponied up for lawyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEB0l6OqLR4

I find your views even odder now
how old are you 40's 50's? is this a long time ago?

And don't take it as an insult i have said I Generally prefer criminals to cops since they are more trust worthy.

I am 46, not that my age has anything to do with it and yes it was a very loing time ago

Shows how limited and sheltered though some of the lifes led on here have been lol

I did my time and was stupid back then

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:03 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Nems wrote:

Wow actually I didn't know you had been in prison, I wouldn't have said that if I had known. I rarely take much notice of what you say I certainly don't store it up. You have made my night though, a fucking thug sent to prison over football violence and you have the fucking audacity to try and Lord it on chat forums.
Don't know what a morn aid is but I know what a thug is. Hahahaha
All together now
"the warden threw a party in the county jail"

So you are saying a person who has commited a crime has to never learn from this and always suffer.
Glad this brings you amusment, I am not ashamed, in fact learn from those who leanr by their mistakes because the experence the wrongs they have done. So to claim I cannot say I can lord it on forums is hilarious.,
Please provide your reasons why I should not?

Ah well at least you admit you try to Lord it on forums lol
As for anything else you say... Who cares what A racist football thug thinks
The fact that you are not ashamed says it all really

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:24 am

Nems wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

So you are saying a person who has commited a crime has to never learn from this and always suffer.
Glad this brings you amusment, I am not ashamed, in fact learn from those who leanr by their mistakes because the experence the wrongs they have done. So to claim I cannot say I can lord it on forums is hilarious.,
Please provide your reasons why I should not?

Ah well at least you admit you try to Lord it on forums lol
As for anything else you say... Who cares what A racist football thug thinks
The fact that you are not ashamed says it all really

I expected nothing more idiotic in your reply where you basically condemn people for life for their mistkes and that you clearly think people can not be brought back into civillian life. They are just scum to you. Well at least we see yoiur true colours.
You decide also I am not ashmed about my past, which shows you have no clue and are just the brainless skank I have always thought you were. At least now I know not to bother treating such scum with any respect anymore after your views here.
The fact you think some idiotic daft prick like you has any valid views when they are inherantly racist and xenophobic through your fears of people coming to live here is hilarious, you are just too gutless to admit you are a nasty little viper eh Nems

So I had a past, big deal, if you think youi can hold that against me or that my views do not matter, it just further proves you are the idiot I have always taken you for.

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:56 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Nems wrote:

Ah well at least you admit you try to Lord it on forums lol
As for anything else you say... Who cares what A racist football thug thinks
The fact that you are not ashamed says it all really

I expected nothing more idiotic in your reply where you basically condemn people for life for their mistkes and that you clearly think people can not be brought back into civillian life. They are just scum to you. Well at least we see yoiur true colours.
You decide also I am not ashmed about my past, which shows you have no clue and are just the brainless skank I have always thought you were. At least now I know not to bother treating such scum with any respect anymore after your views here.
The fact you think some idiotic daft prick like you has any valid views when they are inherantly racist and xenophobic through your fears of people coming to live here is hilarious, you are just too gutless to admit you are a nasty little viper eh Nems

So I had a past, big deal, if you think youi can hold that against me or that my views do not matter, it just further proves you are the idiot I have always taken you for.

Nah not biting
I spend my life dealing with people traumatised by violence racism and hatred.

Look at your post to me. You are still a mindless thug. Prison taught you nothing.
What's bred in the flesh will out in the bone as they say.
Very poor form for you to be so judgemental of others. You want to look to your own behaviour.

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:12 am

Nems wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

I expected nothing more idiotic in your reply where you basically condemn people for life for their mistkes and that you clearly think people can not be brought back into civillian life. They are just scum to you. Well at least we see yoiur true colours.
You decide also I am not ashmed about my past, which shows you have no clue and are just the brainless skank I have always thought you were. At least now I know not to bother treating such scum with any respect anymore after your views here.
The fact you think some idiotic daft prick like you has any valid views when they are inherantly racist and xenophobic through your fears of people coming to live here is hilarious, you are just too gutless to admit you are a nasty little viper eh Nems

So I had a past, big deal, if you think youi can hold that against me or that my views do not matter, it just further proves you are the idiot I have always taken you for.

Nah not biting
I spend my life dealing with people traumatised by violence racism and hatred.

Look at your post to me. You are still a mindless thug. Prison taught you nothing.
What's bred in the flesh will out in the bone as they say.
Very poor form for you to be so judgemental of others. You want to look to your own behaviour.

Yes you are boring and to claim you help victims is nothing short of a lie because you have utterly no empathy as seen how you cast someone who did something in their youth as still a thug. It proves your claims are nothing short of babble. You just held me responsible still to a crime many years ago when I was young and naive. That proves it is personal and that its more about your hate of me, that is pathetic here.
To me you are nothing but a racist xenophobic idiot who choses to help people based on georgraphy.
A person who argues against allowing people in the country does not have the best interest of people who need help at heart, otherwise they would not argue against it. So for you to even claim that you care is selctive and based on raical reasoning.
To be honest I am not concerned that a person like yourself who has the immaturity of child thinks.
You may want to look at why you are so bitter at everything. I suggest this stems from your failed relationship or marriage but its time you moved on in life instead of holding such poor resentment.

You just did bite. You were never that bright Nems just a sheep to others.

Baaaa.

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:13 am

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:14 am

Nems wrote:Thug

Immature.

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:15 am

Cuchulain wrote:
Nems wrote:Thug

Immature.

Hahahaha
Poo head

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:16 am

Nems wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Immature.

Hahahaha
Poo head

Sheep

Baaaaaa

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:26 am

Have you ever been to Wales? Lots of sheep there. We better not mention the sheep-shagging though, it caused a right kerfuffle last time affraid

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:29 am

Nems wrote:Have you ever been to Wales? Lots of sheep there. We better not mention the sheep-shagging though, it caused a right kerfuffle last time

British Prison Smoking Ban Riot Fears As 'Stability' Concerns Overshadow Health Implications - Page 2 1780941361

by Raggamuffin Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:04 am

Didge has mentioned his spell in prison before, and the reason for it. I wouldn't take the piss, unless he has a go at anyone else for having been in prison. Laughing

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:33 pm

Nems wrote:Have you ever been to Wales? Lots of sheep there. We better not mention the sheep-shagging though, it caused a right kerfuffle last time

In the deep dark land of SEREN....

just dont say it 3 times

pale

by Guest Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:56 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Nems wrote:Have you ever been to Wales? Lots of sheep there. We better not mention the sheep-shagging though, it caused a right kerfuffle last time

In the deep dark land of SEREN....

just dont say it 3 times

by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:42 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Nems wrote:

Wow actually I didn't know you had been in prison, I wouldn't have said that if I had known. I rarely take much notice of what you say I certainly don't store it up. You have made my night though, a fucking thug sent to prison over football violence and you have the fucking audacity to try and Lord it on chat forums.
Don't know what a morn aid is but I know what a thug is. Hahahaha
All together now
"the warden threw a party in the county jail"

So you are saying a person who has commited a crime has to never learn from this and always suffer.
Glad this brings you amusment, I am not ashamed, in fact learn from those who leanr by their mistakes because the experence the wrongs they have done. So to claim I cannot say I can lord it on forums is hilarious.,
Please provide your reasons why I should not?

Of course people who commit crimes should suffer a punishment for their crimes!!!

What the fuck are you talking about!!!???

Our current system doesn't give out enough punishment to criminals... instead we have a system where large numbers of hardcore repeat offenders continue to avoid prison with the softly softly approach... even avoiding being fined as it is deemed that they will not only be unable to afford to pay it but that this might drive them to commit more crime to BE able to pay fines!!!

Plus so many criminals are already given so many chances to 'learn from their mistakes' by this softly softly approach, cautions given out for multiple offences and even serious offences!!!

Then if they finally arrive at a position of prison sentencing... firstly the prisons are now like holiday camps... secondly they only get a short sentence and THEN only have to do half or even less of it... out on tag after a third of sentence being served!!!

by eddie Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:12 am

No actually Tommy, what didge meant was; people who have committed crimes and paid for them, can reform so therefore should not have to always suffer.

Are you of the impression then, that people can't reform?

I think when it comes to "lighter" crimes (and I don't mean to dismiss any crimes as less than serious) then people can absolutely learn from them and reform!

by Guest Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:15 am

eddie wrote:No actually Tommy, what didge meant was; people who have committed crimes and paid for them, can reform so therefore should not have to always suffer.

Are you of the impression then, that people can't reform?

I think when it comes to "lighter" crimes (and I don't mean to dismiss any crimes as less than serious) then people can absolutely learn from them and reform!

Indeed, with the attitude of some and sterotype, you might as well put everyone away for life, they are cast as criminals for life

by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:23 pm

Of course I believe that people can reform or change... but with the current system which is so light on so many offenders, there is more of an incentive to just carry on offending.

Only very serious offenders of very serious crimes will immediately go to prison when convicted, a prison that IS now very much like a holiday camp/social club these days...

When there are others committing multiple crimes and continually getting either a caution or appearing multiple times at court only to be let off with a small fine, conditional discharge or community service etc..

And of course peoples criminal history will have an effect on certain aspects of their lives thereafter... have you heard of CRB checking...?

You wouldn't want a thief or fraudster working in a bank for example... or a sex offender working in A school etc... where do you draw the line between that being a continued punishment or a protective measure for general public!?

by eddie Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:34 pm

It all depends upon the crime really Tommy, how serious it was and how long ago relevant to the situation.

by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:56 pm

Exactly Eddie, and in regards to criminal history affecting people after having served punishment/prison etc, it already happens... my examples above are real examples of how this works... also on lower level crimes it happens too... other examples are found for people who are caught doing driving offences, they may get a fine plus points or even a ban, but after paying fine and serving ban period, their costs of insurance will be higher after declaring conviction/points/ban etc... also a shoplifter may still be banned from certain shops or even areas after being convicted and serving sentence etc...

There are loads of jobs where you wouldn't be allowed to do because of criminal history...

People will also face problems of entry to other countries because of criminal past... regardless of any claim to be reformed or not!

Where do you draw the line?

Is it about continued punishment of criminals or about having sensible safeguards?

by eddie Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:00 pm

Well it's certainly not always about continued punishment of criminals.
I don't think that having been caught shoplifting when you were 16 would have any bearing, after having a clean record after the crime, on getting a job five or ten years later, for example.

Violent crimes are harder to judge and sexual crimes committed are very shaky indeed.

by Guest Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:09 pm

eddie wrote:Well it's certainly not always about continued punishment of criminals.
I don't think that having been caught shoplifting when you were 16 would have any bearing, after having a clean record after the crime, on getting a job five or ten years later, for example.

Violent crimes are harder to judge and sexual crimes committed are very shaky indeed.

Anyone who have been violent in the past and displays abusive behaviour regularly is very suspect and I'd judge them totally untrustworthy. Someone who was violent but has turned themselves around and is never aggressive or abusive deserves a chance, but one step out of line and that would it the end of it. Would never trust anyone who had committed a sexual crime, no way, ever.

by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:13 pm

Your example is of A juvenile who would have probably only got a stern warning or caution, and record would have been rubbed anyway once over18 as far as majority of general life is concerned.

by Irn Bru Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:45 am

Many a law, many a commandment have I broken, but my word never

Walter Scott

by Raggamuffin Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Of course I believe that people can reform or change... but with the current system which is so light on so many offenders, there is more of an incentive to just carry on offending.

Only very serious offenders of very serious crimes will immediately go to prison when convicted, a prison that IS now very much like a holiday camp/social club these days...

When there are others committing multiple crimes and continually getting either a caution or appearing multiple times at court only to be let off with a small fine, conditional discharge or community service etc..

And of course peoples criminal history will have an effect on certain aspects of their lives thereafter... have you heard of CRB checking...?

You wouldn't want a thief or fraudster working in a bank for example... or a sex offender working in A school etc... where do you draw the line between that being a continued punishment or a protective measure for general public!?

Some good points there Tommy. If someone who has been to prison cannot get a job afterwards for the reasons you mentioned, it's either because they have not been forgiven by society, or because employers don't believe they have been rehabilitated and may well commit the same crime.

by veya_victaous Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:08 am

by Raggamuffin Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:11 am

I can't see all of that Veya - it's huge.

by veya_victaous Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:16 am

fixed

by Raggamuffin Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:22 am

veya_victaous wrote:fixed

Thank you. Laughing

by Guest Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:26 am

Never seen so much hypocrisy in all my life. Criminal acts is what is defined by a state, which can vary per country. Some people will even turn a blind eye to murder dependent on who the victim is. None though spare a thought for the views they express which may lead to sway others. This is even more so if people hold extreme views against groups of people. For example we see this with hate expressed towards Israel, who are the victims? Jews attacked. The same happens when the rhetoric is aimed at a group like Muslims and then Muslims then end up being attacked. Views of extremism sway people and when the hate is directed at a nation or people then that is a crime itself as hate leads to violence., Some here express the worst racist and homophobic views and care little of those consequences of their actions. Many are guilty of crimes, they just happen to get away with this, because the problem is associating that this person did have an effect, where they abused their free speech to promote hate. This is why I make a point of directing my points against a political body or ideology that effects the well being and equality of others. for example Hamas or Wahhabism.

It just makes me laugh how some sit here all judgmental and fail to see the adverse effect their preaching of hate has onto others. The fact is many are remorseful of their crimes, myself included and we have to live that inside us all our lives, so we pay this not only with punishment but with the scar of that crime within us . to then has some still stigmatize you once free back in society. Normally;y those who hold these views are the ones that express hate against other groups with no thought or care of the consequences. They tend to be the worst hypocrites going.

by Raggamuffin Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:32 am

Cuchulain wrote:Never seen so much hypocrisy in all my life. Criminal acts is what is defined by a state, which can vary per country. Some people will even turn a blind eye to murder dependent on who the victim is. None though spare a thought for the views they express which may lead to sway others. This is even more so if people hold extreme views against groups of people. For example we see this with hate expressed towards Israel, who are the victims? Jews attacked. The same happens when the rhetoric is aimed at a group like Muslims and then Muslims then end up being attacked. Views of extremism sway people and when the hate is directed at a nation or people then that is a crime itself as hate leads to violence., Some here express the worst racist and homophobic views and care little of those consequences of their actions. Many are guilty of crimes, they just happen to get away with this, because the problem is associating that this person did have an effect, where they abused their free speech to promote hate. This is why I make a point of directing my points against a political body or ideology that effects the well being and equality of others. for example Hamas or Wahhabism.

It just makes me laugh how some sit here all judgmental and fail to see the adverse effect their preaching of hate has onto others. The fact is many are remorseful of their crimes, myself included and we have to live that inside us all our lives, so we pay this not only with punishment but with the scar of that crime within us . to then has some still stigmatize you once free back in society. Normally;y those who hold these views are the ones that express hate against other groups with no thought or care of the consequences. They tend to be the worst hypocrites going.

Are you in the right thread?

by Guest Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:35 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:Never seen so much hypocrisy in all my life. Criminal acts is what is defined by a state, which can vary per country. Some people will even turn a blind eye to murder dependent on who the victim is. None though spare a thought for the views they express which may lead to sway others. This is even more so if people hold extreme views against groups of people. For example we see this with hate expressed towards Israel, who are the victims? Jews attacked. The same happens when the rhetoric is aimed at a group like Muslims and then Muslims then end up being attacked. Views of extremism sway people and when the hate is directed at a nation or people then that is a crime itself as hate leads to violence., Some here express the worst racist and homophobic views and care little of those consequences of their actions. Many are guilty of crimes, they just happen to get away with this, because the problem is associating that this person did have an effect, where they abused their free speech to promote hate. This is why I make a point of directing my points against a political body or ideology that effects the well being and equality of others. for example Hamas or Wahhabism.

It just makes me laugh how some sit here all judgmental and fail to see the adverse effect their preaching of hate has onto others. The fact is many are remorseful of their crimes, myself included and we have to live that inside us all our lives, so we pay this not only with punishment but with the scar of that crime within us . to then has some still stigmatize you once free back in society. Normally;y those who hold these views are the ones that express hate against other groups with no thought or care of the consequences. They tend to be the worst hypocrites going.

Are you in the right thread?

Yes very much so Rags, if you have no point then stop wasting my time, as I am bored with your inane disruptions

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