Taking the meaning of racism too far.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3454987/Two-college-students-cause-racism-furore-posing-blacked-selfie-undergoing-facial-treatment.html

OMG....talk about over reacting.

One of the comments under the article says this:

Surely there are more importatnt things in the world to be concerned about? Misguided, yes. Intentionally racist, no.

There was nothing misguided about it. If people want to post pics of themselves with face packs, that's entirely up to them, and they should be able to do so without some idiot accusing them of racism.

People really need to get a grip.

Raggamuffin wrote:One of the comments under the article says this:

Surely there are more importatnt things in the world to be concerned about? Misguided, yes. Intentionally racist, no.

There was nothing misguided about it. If people want to post pics of themselves with face packs, that's entirely up to them, and they should be able to do so without some idiot accusing them of racism.

People really need to get a grip.

I know, it's ridiculous.
People should comment on real issues not imaginary ones...though reading their website it's not the first time this university has made stupid assumptions as to what is racist and what isn't.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:One of the comments under the article says this:



There was nothing misguided about it. If people want to post pics of themselves with face packs, that's entirely up to them, and they should be able to do so without some idiot accusing them of racism.

People really need to get a grip.

I know, it's ridiculous.
People should comment on real issues not imaginary ones...though reading their website it's not the first time this university has made stupid assumptions as to what is racist and what isn't.

It didn't even warrant an investigation. Why didn't they just look at the photo and then ignore the complaints?

Someone posted a comment, if two black girls posted pics of themselves with white face masks on would that be racist to?....I doubt anyone would think so.

PC aerosols have taken over the asylum.

So much alleged racism would fizzle out almost unnoticed if it were not for PC leftiz looking for conflict in the media.
They would say very little face to face, much the same as on forums.
People are called racists for being patriots wanting to protect their country. which IS WORTHWHILE.

"Racism" is a very over-used term.

Meh...it's Wisconsin-Whitewater. Now, if it had been Madison, I would be crushed.

Am I the only one who noticed that they look like they're in blackface ... who knows that blackface was used to mock and deride black people ... and that one of them is also throwing a gang symbol, yet another black stereotype?

There's no way they didn't know the racial connotations of the photo.



They're even doing the "hard" look that you see a lot of rappers do:



Yeah, of course I'm not the only who sees it, because it did stir up controversy.

it clearly was a stupid prank and they certainly it seems did not set out to offend anyone, but clearly they are very ignorant though, as what they did would be jumped on like a rash, especially when racial tensions have been running extremely high over the last year in the US. So they are certainly not excused on the grounds of being naive and stupid.

As to the point on white paint? How many black or white people paint the vast majority of the face in white? So to say whether or not two black girls painting their face white would not receive the same reaction is blatantly obvious why it would not. Neglecting the fact no black girls have anyway, rendering such an assumption redundant. There is little history of racism against whites groups in the US, except some minority groups like the Irish, Italians etc, off though other white groups. There is nothing to compare decades of white racism against blacks. So nobody would bat an eyelid if it was two black girls, because there is no history or cause to create an offense. Yet there is when white people do so, as it has had countless times such mockery against black people..

Some people need to try and imagine what it is like having black skin, being judged automatically by countless people. How they are discriminated against at every level. Try walking in their shoes to see why people would likely react to such stupidity by these two boys. Yes it was not intentional by them, but it certainly shows a lack intelligence not thinking for one second, that people would not respond to the blackening up of faces

Looks like girls wearing a face mask.

The "gangsta" sign is quite common even amongst non black kids. So that's purely coincidental.

So on that evidence, I don't think it's racist.

I thought that was a girl on the right, but maybe not.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Looks like girls wearing a face mask.

The "gangsta" sign is quite common even amongst non black kids. So that's purely coincidental.

So on that evidence, I don't think it's racist.

But you are not black, let alone African American, so how can you determine how some black people would view this? You will have little understanding what American Blacks deal with in this regard.
I agree their intent was not racist, but it can easily be seen as racist based on a history of such mockery.
Again you are forgetting also that racial tensions are running high in the US
It was naive of them to do so, especially when there is a history of such mockery against blacks

Didge wrote:it clearly was a stupid prank and they certainly it seems did not set out to offend anyone, but clearly they are very ignorant though, as what they did would be jumped on like a rash, especially when racial tensions have been running extremely high over the last year in the US. So they are certainly not excused on the grounds of being naive and stupid.

As to the point on white paint? How many black or white people paint the vast majority of the face in white? So to say whether or not two black girls painting their face white would not receive the same reaction is blatantly obvious why it would not. Neglecting the fact no black girls have anyway, rendering such an assumption redundant. There is little history of racism against whites groups in the US, except some minority groups like the Irish, Italians etc, off though other white groups. There is nothing to compare decades of white racism against blacks. So nobody would bat an eyelid if it was two black girls, because there is no history or cause to create an offense. Yet there is when white people do so, as it has had countless times such mockery against black people..

Some people need to try and imagine what it is like having black skin, being judged automatically by countless people. How they are discriminated against at every level. Try walking in their shoes to see why people would likely react to such stupidity by these two boys. Yes it was not intentional by them, but it certainly shows a lack intelligence not thinking for one second, that people would not respond to the blackening up of faces

They haven't painted their faces black...they have face masks on. To anyone who doesn't know, a face mask is a beauty product, which left on the face till it hardens is meant to enhance the complexion.
Face masks can also be white/green/blue....the colour depends on whats in them. It's as likely that a black girl would cover her face in a white face mask as it is a white girl would her face in a black face mask.

I think, if they're trying to send a racist message then they're doing it very clumsily and not very clearly!

Is it just the face mask or that, combined with the stupid finger sign they're doing? (Which as Zack pointed out, is done by lots of tossers of all colours)

So is it the colour of the face mask?
If they'd been wearing a yellow one and holding chopsticks - would we think they were having a dig at Chinese people?

Not sure about this tbf. I don't automatically see things as racist on the grounds of a coloured face mask

Ben_Reilly wrote:Am I the only one who noticed that they look like they're in blackface ... who knows that blackface was used to mock and deride black people ... and that one of them is also throwing a gang symbol, yet another black stereotype?

There's no way they didn't know the racial connotations of the photo.



They're even doing the "hard" look that you see a lot of rappers do:



Yeah, of course I'm not the only who sees it, because it did stir up controversy.

Loads of people have nicked the gang type hand signal....granted not all whites get it right.

Didge wrote:it clearly was a stupid prank and they certainly it seems did not set out to offend anyone, but clearly they are very ignorant though, as what they did would be jumped on like a rash, especially when racial tensions have been running extremely high over the last year in the US. So they are certainly not excused on the grounds of being naive and stupid.

As to the point on white paint? How many black or white people paint the vast majority of the face in white? So to say whether or not two black girls painting their face white would not receive the same reaction is blatantly obvious why it would not. Neglecting the fact no black girls have anyway, rendering such an assumption redundant. There is little history of racism against whites groups in the US, except some minority groups like the Irish, Italians etc, off though other white groups. There is nothing to compare decades of white racism against blacks. So nobody would bat an eyelid if it was two black girls, because there is no history or cause to create an offense. Yet there is when white people do so, as it has had countless times such mockery against black people..

Some people need to try and imagine what it is like having black skin, being judged automatically by countless people. How they are discriminated against at every level. Try walking in their shoes to see why people would likely react to such stupidity by these two boys. Yes it was not intentional by them, but it certainly shows a lack intelligence not thinking for one second, that people would not respond to the blackening up of faces

The history aspect is the predominant point.  Kudos for recognizing that, didge.  There is no equivalency between demeaning white people and demeaning black people, as the demeaning of whites has no code.  It has no code because it has, in fact, no history.

And Zack, regardless of who has adopted the gangsta sign, is there any misunderstanding of what it is code for?

Still, I don't get too worked up about this.  It's two silly children, not necessarily mocking black people, but mocking all the fuss that arises when something like this is done. That's the way I read it anyway.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:it clearly was a stupid prank and they certainly it seems did not set out to offend anyone, but clearly they are very ignorant though, as what they did would be jumped on like a rash, especially when racial tensions have been running extremely high over the last year in the US. So they are certainly not excused on the grounds of being naive and stupid.

As to the point on white paint? How many black or white people paint the vast majority of the face in white? So to say whether or not two black girls painting their face white would not receive the same reaction is blatantly obvious why it would not. Neglecting the fact no black girls have anyway, rendering such an assumption redundant. There is little history of racism against whites groups in the US, except some minority groups like the Irish, Italians etc, off though other white groups. There is nothing to compare decades of white racism against blacks. So nobody would bat an eyelid if it was two black girls, because there is no history or cause to create an offense. Yet there is when white people do so, as it has had countless times such mockery against black people..

Some people need to try and imagine what it is like having black skin, being judged automatically by countless people. How they are discriminated against at every level. Try walking in their shoes to see why people would likely react to such stupidity by these two boys. Yes it was not intentional by them, but it certainly shows a lack intelligence not thinking for one second, that people would not respond to the blackening up of faces

They haven't painted their faces black...they have face masks on. To anyone who doesn't know, a face mask is a beauty product, which left on the face till it hardens is meant to enhance the complexion.
Face masks can also be white/green/blue....the colour depends on whats in them. It's as likely that a black girl would cover her face in a white face mask as it is a white girl would her face in a black face mask.

Again what did you fail top understand how there is no comparability with racism towards whites by blacks with them demeaning them with the likes oif the black and white Minstrel. Hence why I had already said your point is meaningless, because they is no comparability with racism towards whites than there is to blacks in the US. Please do not ignore that next time as i have already explained this, as here in this picture there is no history or cause to even associate her face with racism against whites.

Do you understand that?

eddie wrote:I think, if they're trying to send a racist message then they're doing it very clumsily and not very clearly!

Is it just the face mask or that, combined with the stupid finger sign they're doing? (Which as Zack pointed out, is done by lots of tossers of all colours)

So is it the colour of the face mask?
If they'd been wearing a yellow one and holding chopsticks - would we think they were having a dig at Chinese people?

Not sure about this tbf. I don't automatically see things as racist on the grounds of a coloured face mask  

They were naive, not racist, but people here mainly because fundamentally they simply cannot even imagine what it must be like to be an African American, of which countless poor prejudiced and racist stereotypes exist, that fundamentally disadvantages them, simply because they are easily identifiable by the colour of their skin. With the fact there is a history of not only the black and white Minstrels but many countries that blackened up actors demeaning Africans is why people would feel offended.
Seriously, can you for once try to place yourself in their shoes

How do you know this woman, above, has no history of racism?
Black peoples can be racist too, you know!

Syl's point was that face packs come in many colours.

It's not the fault of white people that Dead Sea mud is black.

Raggamuffin wrote:Syl's point was that face packs come in many colours.

It's not the fault of white people that Dead Sea mud is black.

Its irrelevant, as stated based on no racist history of blacks whitening up their faces in the US to demean white people

eddie wrote:How do you know this woman, above, has no history of racism?
Black peoples can be racist too, you know!

OMG point so far above Eddies head, it has now reached the moon

Show the history in the US of centuries or civil rights being denied, being treated as near abject slaves?

That is your starting poiint to even male any view that this could cause offense to whites based off any history?

eddie wrote:How do you know this woman, above, has no history of racism?
Black peoples can be racist too, you know!

OMG point so far above Eddies head, it has now reached the moon

Show the history in the US of centuries or civil rights being denied, being treated as near abject slaves?

That is your starting poiint to even male any view that this could cause offense to whites based off any history?

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Syl's point was that face packs come in many colours.

It's not the fault of white people that Dead Sea mud is black.

Its irrelevant, as stated based on no racist history of blacks whitening up their faces in the US to demean white people

It's not irrelevant. Here is her post again.

They haven't painted their faces black...they have face masks on. To anyone who doesn't know, a face mask is a beauty product, which left on the face till it hardens is meant to enhance the complexion.
Face masks can also be white/green/blue....the colour depends on whats in them. It's as likely that a black girl would cover her face in a white face mask as it is a white girl would her face in a black face mask.

All she's saying is that a black person could use a white face pack, and a white person could use a black face pack, or vice versa. She didn't mention racism.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Its irrelevant, as stated based on no racist history of blacks whitening up their faces in the US to demean white people

It's not irrelevant. Here is her post again.

They haven't painted their faces black...they have face masks on. To anyone who doesn't know, a face mask is a beauty product, which left on the face till it hardens is meant to enhance the complexion.
Face masks can also be white/green/blue....the colour depends on whats in them. It's as likely that a black girl would cover her face in a white face mask as it is a white girl would her face in a black face mask.

All she's saying is that a black person could use a white face pack, and a white person could use a black face pack, or vice versa. She didn't mention racism.

Its completely irrelevant as already explained, because there is no history to even then for any white person to take offense thinking its racist
You miss the point that has been stated throughout

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:

They haven't painted their faces black...they have face masks on. To anyone who doesn't know, a face mask is a beauty product, which left on the face till it hardens is meant to enhance the complexion.
Face masks can also be white/green/blue....the colour depends on whats in them. It's as likely that a black girl would cover her face in a white face mask as it is a white girl would her face in a black face mask.

Again what did you fail top understand how there is no comparability with racism towards whites by blacks with them demeaning them with the likes oif the black and white Minstrel. Hence why I had already said your point is meaningless, because they is no comparability with racism towards whites than there is to blacks in the US. Please do not ignore that next time as i have already explained this, as here in this picture there is no history or cause to even associate her face with racism against whites.

Do you understand that?

I understand that the investigation cleared the girls of any racial intent, they were posing with face masks on, they could have been white/green/any colour face masks....they just happened to be black.

The same university seems to have a skewed outlook on what is racially offensive and what is not. In this case they were wrong, as are you.
Last year they banned on campus certain phrases being used...amongst them was "Everybody can succeed" in their opinion it's racist.....

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not irrelevant. Here is her post again.



All she's saying is that a black person could use a white face pack, and a white person could use a black face pack, or vice versa. She didn't mention racism.

Its completely irrelevant as already explained, because there is no history to even then for any white person to take offense thinking its racist
You miss the point that has been stated throughout

It's not irrelevant - she was replying to your post claiming that they painted their faces black. They were using face packs, not face paint. Her post was nothing to do with history, it was to do with cosmetic treatments.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:



Again what did you fail top understand how there is no comparability with racism towards whites by blacks with them demeaning them with the likes oif the black and white Minstrel. Hence why I had already said your point is meaningless, because they is no comparability with racism towards whites than there is to blacks in the US. Please do not ignore that next time as i have already explained this, as here in this picture there is no history or cause to even associate her face with racism against whites.

Do you understand that?

I understand that the investigation cleared the girls of any racial intent, they were posing with face masks on, they could have been white/green/any colour face masks....they just  happened to be black.

The same university seems to have a skewed outlook on what is racially offensive and what is not. In this case they were wrong, as are you.
Last year they banned on campus certain phrases being used...amongst them was "Everybody can succeed" in their opinion it's racist.....

I think they were chaps. I thought the one on the right was a girl, but I'm not so sure now.

Raggamuffin wrote:Syl's point was that face packs come in many colours.

It's not the fault of white people that Dead Sea mud is black.

And expensive...I bought some when I went to the dead sea.......it made no difference either.

How on earth is the phrase "everybody can succeed" racist?

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:



Again what did you fail top understand how there is no comparability with racism towards whites by blacks with them demeaning them with the likes oif the black and white Minstrel. Hence why I had already said your point is meaningless, because they is no comparability with racism towards whites than there is to blacks in the US. Please do not ignore that next time as i have already explained this, as here in this picture there is no history or cause to even associate her face with racism against whites.

Do you understand that?

I understand that the investigation cleared the girls of any racial intent, they were posing with face masks on, they could have been white/green/any colour face masks....they just  happened to be black.

The same university seems to have a skewed outlook on what is racially offensive and what is not. In this case they were wrong, as are you.
Last year they banned on campus certain phrases being used...amongst them was "Everybody can succeed" in their opinion it's racist.....

No just the University understands its own American people which you fundamentally fail to understand.
Whites suffering state run discrimination?
Some Irish, Italians, Jews.
Were they still classed above blacks?
Yes
Any history of whites blackening up their faces to demean black people?>
Countless
Any with Blacks whitening up their faces to demean white people no

So can you see how if whites blackened up their faces it will easily assumed to be racism, whereas if by a black student, even if the intent is racist, there is no history to assume she would be being racist.


Has this sunk in yet?

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Syl's point was that face packs come in many colours.

It's not the fault of white people that Dead Sea mud is black.

And expensive...I bought some when I went to the dead sea.......it made no difference either.

Yes, well I'm not sure that face packs do make a difference. I used to have a laugh trying them though. You had to try not to laugh once they'd dried, and it's quite difficult.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:



Its completely irrelevant as already explained, because there is no history to even then for any white person to take offense thinking its racist
You miss the point that has been stated throughout

It's not irrelevant - she was replying to your post claiming that they painted their faces black. They were using face packs, not face paint. Her post was nothing to do with history, it was to do with cosmetic treatments.

not going to go around in circles, post up centuries up whites suffering under black subjugation and where blacks demeaned them by whitening up their faces?

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not irrelevant - she was replying to your post claiming that they painted their faces black. They were using face packs, not face paint. Her post was nothing to do with history, it was to do with cosmetic treatments.

not going to go around in circles, post up centuries up whites suffering under black subjugation and where blacks demeaned them by whitening up their faces?

Her post was fuck all to do with centuries of whatever, it was to explain about face packs.

FFS, never mind.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:



not going to go around in circles, post up centuries up whites suffering under black subjugation and where blacks demeaned them by whitening up their faces?

Her post was fuck all to do with centuries of whatever, it was to explain about face packs.

FFS, never mind.

Please keep your potty mouth in check

Thanks

It has everything to do with history where here for example there is a history of whites blackenning up their faces to demean black people, hence why it can be easily viewed as racist.

Now off you go and bring back your supporting historical evidence to show the same would easily be seen off black people doing the same, with no racial history

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:



Its completely irrelevant as already explained, because there is no history to even then for any white person to take offense thinking its racist
You miss the point that has been stated throughout

It's not irrelevant - she was replying to your post claiming that they painted their faces black. They were using face packs, not face paint. Her post was nothing to do with history, it was to do with cosmetic treatments.

That's exactly it. Didge is on rewind repeat again. He doesn't see anyone elses points but his own.

If we were talking about the Black and White minstrels he would have a valid point...as it is it's just two kids with face masks on, which happen to be black.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Her post was fuck all to do with centuries of whatever, it was to explain about face packs.

FFS, never mind.

Please keep your potty mouth in check

Thanks

It has everything to do with history where here for example there is a history of whites blackenning up their faces to demean black people, hence why it can be easily viewed as racist.

Now off you go and bring back your supporting historical evidence to show the same would easily be seen off black people doing the same, with no racial history

Her post had nothing to do with history. Why are you introducing yet another straw man argument?

I haven't mentioned historical evidence either. It was a fucking face pack - end of story.

Raggamuffin wrote:How on earth is the phrase "everybody can succeed" racist?

Bet Didge knows.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not irrelevant - she was replying to your post claiming that they painted their faces black. They were using face packs, not face paint. Her post was nothing to do with history, it was to do with cosmetic treatments.

That's exactly it. Didge is on rewind repeat again. He doesn't see anyone elses points but his own.

If we were talking about the Black and White minstrels he would have a valid point...as it is it's just two kids with face masks on, which happen to be black.

He's not even addressing your post - he's just inventing something you said so that he can rant on about his own opinion.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

And expensive...I bought some when I went to the dead sea.......it made no difference either.

Yes, well I'm not sure that face packs do make a difference. I used to have a laugh trying them though. You had to try not to laugh once they'd dried, and it's quite difficult.

I imagine that's why they posted the pics....people look so odd with a face mask on.

I just had a look, the one on the left does look like a lad.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:How on earth is the phrase "everybody can succeed" racist?

Bet Didge knows.

Have you seen this garbage? No wonder so many people are paranoid.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/06/university-of-wisconsin-bans-racist-phrase-everybody-can-succeed/

So if you ask a black person to stop being so loud, you're displaying microaggression.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, well I'm not sure that face packs do make a difference. I used to have a laugh trying them though. You had to try not to laugh once they'd dried, and it's quite difficult.

I imagine that's why they posted the pics....people look so odd with a face mask on.

I just had a look, the one on the left does look like a lad.

Neither of them seem to have boobs, but that doesn't mean much I guess.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Please keep your potty mouth in check

Thanks

It has everything to do with history where here for example there is a history of whites blackenning up their faces to demean black people, hence why it can be easily viewed as racist.

Now off you go and bring back your supporting historical evidence to show the same would easily be seen off black people doing the same, with no racial history

Her post had nothing to do with history. Why are you introducing yet another straw man argument?

I haven't mentioned historical evidence either. It was a fucking face pack - end of story.

Her post shows she failed to understand that by trying to compare this to black students whitening up their faces, would be moot based on nobody would think or reason they were being racist, because there simply is centuries of blacks demeaning whites in America

The point you keep missing at everyturn

It would only have relevance where there had been centuries of racism against whites by blacks and shows, plays, musicals where whites were demeaned by painting up black peoples faces.

That is why to try to compare something that from the start is not even comparable, and why to bring this up is moot.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

That's exactly it. Didge is on rewind repeat again. He doesn't see anyone elses points but his own.

If we were talking about the Black and White minstrels he would have a valid point...as it is it's just two kids with face masks on, which happen to be black.

He's not even addressing your post - he's just inventing something you said so that he can rant on about his own opinion.

I don't think Didge even reads my posts, he just likes to argue.
The other night he demanded to know why I would not answer his question...and he posted that under the quote where I HAD answered his question....

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

He's not even addressing your post - he's just inventing something you said so that he can rant on about his own opinion.

I don't think Didge even reads my posts, he just likes to argue.
The other night he demanded to know why I would not answer his question...and he posted that under the quote where I HAD answered his question....

I'm not going to even bother to read his last reply. He just likes to argue.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

He's not even addressing your post - he's just inventing something you said so that he can rant on about his own opinion.

I don't think Didge even reads my posts, he just likes to argue.
The other night he demanded to know why I would not answer his question...and he posted that under the quote where I HAD answered his question....

Tha is conceding above, talking around

Always a massive indicator the other person now looks to deflect with poor attempts at humour and mocking

Checkmate

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:How do you know this woman, above, has no history of racism?
Black peoples can be racist too, you know!

OMG point so far above Eddies head, it has now reached the moon

Show the history in the US of centuries or civil rights being denied, being treated as near abject slaves?

That is your starting poiint to even male any view that this could cause offense to whites based off any history?

The point wasn't over my head at all, I'm not stupid

But you presumed that the black woman with the white mask wasn't having a dig at white people.
Why is that?

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Her post had nothing to do with history. Why are you introducing yet another straw man argument?

I haven't mentioned historical evidence either. It was a fucking face pack - end of story.

Her post shows she failed to understand that by trying to compare this to black students whitening up their faces, would be moot based on nobody would think or reason they were being racist, because there simply is centuries of blacks demeaning whites in America

The point you keep missing at everyturn

It would only have relevance where there had been centuries of racism against whites by blacks and shows, plays, musicals where whites were demeaned by painting up black peoples faces.

That is why to try to compare something that from the start is not even comparable, and why to bring this up is moot.

I understand fully, so stop being so patronising.
I was not comparing black girls wearing white face masks to white girls wearing black face masks....simply pointing out that face masks come in all colours and can be worn by anyone.

Are you on the Wisconsin university panel for stating bullshit Didge?...you should be.

So thanks to both Rags and syl now admitting they are wrong by talking about me, failing to understand why their point was moot, leaves me very happy

Thanks ladies, it may help next time if you try to think along the lines of what its like for African Americans

I will even go so far to say, I bet you any money Ben completely agrees with me on this point