What Could God do about Evil?

by Guest Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:54 am

My post “Evil: Still no Good Answers” has provoked a lively discussion with over 200 comments. Theistic commentators naturally want to argue that there are indeed plausible reasons for God to permit evil, even evils of the magnitude, extent, and variety that we find in the actual world. A common theme of these replies is to demand that those who pose atheological arguments from evil must state realistic alternatives. How, specifically, might God have eliminated or alleviated the moral or natural evil of the world? It is easy enough, they imply, to bemoan the world’s evils, but if this complaint is to have substance, if it is to be more than a cri de coeur, then there has to be some plausible account of just how the world could have had less evil without also eliminating the greatest goods.

It is the case that evils and goods are connected in intricate ways so that some goods, indeed, some of the most important ones can only arise in the face of evils, and eliminating those evils would also cost us the related goods. For instance, it is easy to imagine a universe that would be a hedonistic paradise with no travail, hardship, or challenge and with well-fed, healthy creatures living lives of ease and never having a pain or enduring a want that is not instantly gratified. But such a life would only be a sort of Brave New World of self-indulgence and selfishness populated by lazy sybarites who dream nothing, achieve nothing, have no deep thoughts or feelings, and experience no great triumphs. A world with no pains, frustrations, or heartbreak, where a comfortable life requires no effort and nothing bad ever happens to anyone would also be a world in which nothing would matter, there would be no greatness or nobility, and everyone would be an over privileged, spoiled, useless nonentity (think the “affluenza” teen).

- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2016/01/20/what-could-god-do-about-evil/#sthash.4xz104OS.dpuf

Plenty more to read on the link

by Fuzzy Zack Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:19 am

Evil? Bit of a subjective word.

What is evil?

Allowing People to commit acts of violence against others? Well, that's called free will. Do you want it or not?

Natural disasters? Like I've said before, the destructive acts like super novas (novi?) and earthquakes are part of the cycle of life and we wouldn't be alive without such destruction.

Again we have more doubters, whinging.

by Guest Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:24 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Evil? Bit of a subjective word.

What is evil?

Allowing People to commit acts of violence against others? Well, that's called free will. Do you want it or not?

Natural disasters? Like I've said before, the destructive acts like super novas (novi?) and earthquakes are part of the cycle of life and we wouldn't be alive without such destruction.

Again we have more doubters, whinging.

Did you read the article?

by veya_victaous Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:13 am

the Article views the universe from a very self centered perspective.

who is to say that good is not always happening, and we are just of no consequence.

the minds that constructed the OP are no greater than the ones that made the bible, not fully comprehending the magnitude of the universe. they make presumptions based on their limited mortal experience and perspective.

by Guest Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:23 am

Nothing

fictitious non corporal,myth and legend

cant do anything but entertain

by Original Quill Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:45 am

veya_victaous wrote:the Article views the universe from a very self centered perspective.

who is to say that good is not always happening, and we are just of no consequence.

the minds that constructed the OP are no greater than the ones that made the bible, not fully comprehending the magnitude of the universe. they make presumptions based on their limited mortal experience and perspective.

Not only that, but the article bypasses a critical question, going on to gleefully chat about the various settings of evil. That is, what is evil?

I don't know what evil looks like. What color is it? Is it soft or hard? Round or square. And I certainly have never seen anyone prove the existence of evil.

I think evil is an assortment of things we regret to see or experience. But I don't need a word for that, anymore than I need an old man walking on clouds to collectively speak of good. In absolute terms, I believe as did Nietzsche, “There is no such thing as moral phenomena, but only a moral interpretation of phenomena”. Beyond Good and Evil. Inside a society's context of morality, you have a reference for evil. But outside of it--in the real world--there is nothing absolute.

by Guest Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:28 am

Odd why is it people are arguing off a concept and whether its exists, when the point of the debate is based around the beliefs and concepts of good and evil within religions and how problematic this is on the Abrahamic deity
This is not a debate about whether we can standardize whether good and evil exists, but to help then, lets substitute the word evil with suffering and how there will be levels of suffering. So lets just ignore all of the above so far as this is about what theists believe and a the many conflicts of this concept of good and evil with an omnibenevolent (all-loving) deity omnipotent god (all knowing) deity.

So I suggest read the article and then base the debate based on theism itself and for those countering those points can be both theists who have just a belief in a creator as well and atheists

It really shows not one person actually read the article.

This is a theological or more to the point a theist Philosophy debate

I was actually hoping to see if any of the religious brigade, wanted to take on his points, which apart from a heart half hearted attempt by Zack, the rest have been about whether good and evil exists.
This is a fine example of where people need to read the article and not second guess

Shame really

by Ben Reilly Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:26 am

Evil is a judgment, not an entity. That said, as a judgment, it's a useful concept.

We should weigh the damage done to each party before we render the judgment of evil. Is it evil for a starving person to steal food from Walmart? Or is it evil for Walmart not to pay its employees a living wage, all the while getting its goods from companies who exploit workers and rape the environment?

For me, the person who steals from Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the theft to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the thief's situation.

But if you were as wealthy as Walmart, would it not be evil to do the things Walmart does to get even more money?

by Original Quill Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:47 pm

Evil is a gestalt. Every time we experience a bad thing, especially when it is malevolently intended, and not accidental, we toss it into the bin of evil. Eventually we develop the notion that the bin is something more than a collection of bad experiences. Then comes the devil, etc., etc.

by Victorismyhero Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:48 pm

agreed quill, the article in the O/P fails to correctly define "evil" and is thus flawed (for all that its aguments would still apply if it had)

a tornado isnt evil...

its very very bad
and destructive

but it isnt "evil"

for something to be evil requires firstly an "intelligence" of sort behind it at least

so a tornado, that in the absence of natural phenomena to guide it , DELIBERATELY went out of its way to actively target towns and cities might, just, be evil

but I dont think any have, despite the feelings of the citizens concerned.

by Guest Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:13 pm

Oh well at least the people on the link are actually debated as intended based off the concept Evil, which .
So again what benefit is the Tornado to anyone, when all it does it destroy everything in its path? A minor few amount of plants, which survive well enough without a tornado. Based on the need to survive, the the Tornado could be viewed as evil based on how destructive they are. Hence I already stated for the benefit of the debate, of which I was more interested from those religious, based on how they do view a concept of Good and evil. So as stated it is as clear to me for the benefit of the article he stated suffering as the base pointy for evil:

As seen below

Are there gratuitous evils? William Rowe famously argued that the plethora of instances of suffering by innocent creatures, such as a fawn burned in a forest fire, provides reasons for thinking that one or more of such instances probably constitutes a gratuitous evil. Let’s expand on this argument a bit. Surely, a gratuitous evil would be an instance of unwanted and undeserved suffering. How many instances of unwanted and undeserved suffering have there been? The neurological complexity to experience suffering is probably quite ancient, extending far back into the Paleozoic. Let’s suppose, then, that in the Phanerozoic Eon (the last 542 million years). There have been one trillion (1012) instances of unwanted and undeserved suffering. If just one of these was gratuitous, then God does not exist. For instance, if one Diplodocus suffered needlessly in the late Jurassic, then God does not exist. We can construct a Rowe-like argument as follows:
1) If one or more of the 1012 instances of unwanted and undeserved suffering was gratuitous, then God does not exist.
Premise: Definition of “gratuitous.”
2) The overwhelming majority of those 1012 instances of unwanted and undesired suffering are apparently gratuitous.
Premise: In the vast majority of cases of unwanted, undeserved suffering, we can see no plausible or even possible redeeming good, i.e. they appear utterly pointless to us.
3) We have no reason to think that those instances of apparently gratuitous, unwanted and undeserved suffering were, in fact, not gratuitous.
Premise: There is no a priori reason for thinking that our perceptions of apparent gratuitousness must be wrong.
4) If, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the instances of unwanted and undeserved suffering appear to be gratuitous, and if there is no reason to hold that they are in fact not gratuitous, then at least one instance of undeserved, unwanted suffering is probably gratuitous.
Premise: If very many a’s appear to be b’s, and if there is no reason to think that a’s are not b’s, then we conclude that a’s are probably b’s. A fortiori we may conclude that some instance of a probably is b.
5) Some (one or more) of the 1012 instances of unwanted, undeserved suffering was probably gratuitous.
Conclusion: From 2, 3, and 4.
6) God probably does not exist
Conclusion: From 1 and 5.
- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2016/01/20/what-could-god-do-about-evil/#sthash.4xz104OS.3CcImBtv.dpuf

by Victorismyhero Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:24 pm

in which case didge, it can easily be held that he is arguing from flawed premises.
especially if we consider that "suffering" is, in and of itself neither good Nor evil but simply is.
Even the lable gratuitous implies that there is an intelligence behind such suffering.

It can easily be shown that

either the suffering is gratuitous....and therfore has an intelligence behind it (god ?)
and thus proves that god exists, though not the "all loving variety immagined by the abrahamists

OR

that the suffering is merely a "fact of life" and there is no god...in which case his argument is not only fatally flawed but superflous to boot...

he in fact has made a convincing case for a "non caring" or "indifferent" god....

though some how i dont think that was quite his intent..........

by Raggamuffin Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:20 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Evil is a judgment, not an entity. That said, as a judgment, it's a useful concept.

We should weigh the damage done to each party before we render the judgment of evil. Is it evil for a starving person to steal food from Walmart? Or is it evil for Walmart not to pay its employees a living wage, all the while getting its goods from companies who exploit workers and rape the environment?

For me, the person who steals from Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the theft to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the thief's situation.

But if you were as wealthy as Walmart, would it not be evil to do the things Walmart does to get even more money?

You didn't ask if it was evil for people to go shopping at Walmart.

by Guest Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:40 pm

Lord Foul wrote:in which case didge, it can easily be held that he is arguing from flawed premises.
especially if we consider that "suffering" is, in and of itself neither good Nor evil but simply is.
Even the lable gratuitous implies that there is an intelligence behind such suffering.

It can easily be shown that

either the suffering is gratuitous....and therfore has an intelligence behind it (god ?)
and thus proves that god exists, though not the "all loving variety immagined by the abrahamists

OR

that the suffering is merely a "fact of life" and there is no god...in which case his argument is not only fatally flawed but superflous to boot...

he in fact has made a convincing case for a "non caring" or "indifferent" god....

though some how i dont think that was quite his intent..........

fair enough Victor,

+1

by Ben Reilly Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:27 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Evil is a judgment, not an entity. That said, as a judgment, it's a useful concept.

We should weigh the damage done to each party before we render the judgment of evil. Is it evil for a starving person to steal food from Walmart? Or is it evil for Walmart not to pay its employees a living wage, all the while getting its goods from companies who exploit workers and rape the environment?

For me, the person who steals from Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the theft to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the thief's situation.

But if you were as wealthy as Walmart, would it not be evil to do the things Walmart does to get even more money?

You didn't ask if it was evil for people to go shopping at Walmart.

Good point! Let me address that:

For me, the person who shops at Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the shopping to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the shopper's situation.

(I'm being serious)

by Victorismyhero Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:51 pm

so what would equality look like in your world ben?

everyone scratching a living?

group against group

village against village

by Raggamuffin Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:24 pm

Didge wrote:Odd why is it people are arguing off a concept and whether its exists, when the point of the debate is based around the beliefs and concepts of good and evil within religions and how problematic this is on the Abrahamic deity
This is not a debate about whether we can standardize whether good and evil exists, but to help then, lets substitute the word evil with suffering and how there will be levels of suffering. So lets just ignore all of the above so far as this is about what theists believe and a the many conflicts of this concept of good and evil with an omnibenevolent (all-loving) deity omnipotent god (all knowing) deity.

So I suggest read the article and then base the debate based on theism itself and for those countering those points can be both theists who have just a belief in a creator as well and atheists

It really shows not one person actually read the article.

This is a theological or more to the point a theist Philosophy debate

I was actually hoping to see if any of the religious brigade, wanted to take on his points, which apart from a heart half hearted attempt by Zack, the rest have been about whether good and evil exists.
This is a fine example of where people need to read the article and not second guess

Shame really

Who is part of the "religious brigade"? Laughing

by Raggamuffin Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:26 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You didn't ask if it was evil for people to go shopping at Walmart.

Good point! Let me address that:

For me, the person who shops at Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the shopping to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the shopper's situation.

(I'm being serious)

Do you mean that a person who shops at Walmart is causing inequality, or is a "victim" of inequality?

by Ben Reilly Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You didn't ask if it was evil for people to go shopping at Walmart.

Good point! Let me address that:

For me, the person who shops at Walmart is a symptom of the inequality of the world. We shouldn't want the shopping to happen, but we should also allow that we'd all do the same in the shopper's situation.

(I'm being serious)

Do you mean that a person who shops at Walmart is causing inequality, or is a "victim" of inequality?

They're in a feedback loop of inequality.

Walmart started it by undercutting the markets in which it operates with "everyday low prices" which are actually being paid by Pacific Rim wage slaves in the form of lowered life expectancy and an awful overall quality of life.

Walmart transforms the markets in which it operates by lowering both prices and wages, as it crushes competing businesses and the jobs they provided, thus shrinking demand for labor in those areas and making workers compete over lower-paying jobs. (Walmart is the No. 1 employer in the U.S.)

Those workers who now have less money in their pockets are then forced to shop at discount stores like Walmart in order to make ends meet. But when they do, that of course increases demand for discount stores, and for goods made by exploited labor sources. So like I said, a feedback loop of inequality.

by Fuzzy Zack Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:57 am

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Evil? Bit of a subjective word.

What is evil?

Allowing People to commit acts of violence against others? Well, that's called free will. Do you want it or not?

Natural disasters? Like I've said before, the destructive acts like super novas (novi?) and earthquakes are part of the cycle of life and we wouldn't be alive without such destruction.

Again we have more doubters, whinging.

Did you read the article?

No.

by Guest Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:19 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

Did you read the article?

No.

No problem, as I think that proves more and more that the articles should be posted in full

Ta

by stardesk Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:18 pm

Hi folks. Now this is a very interesting yet emotive subject, which depends a lot on one’s political and religious persuasions. I include political because that too can bring both positive and negative responses, depending on whether you’re left, right, or centre. There are many different religious beliefs around the world, all teaching moral and ethical behaviour, some are extreme whilst others are more sociable and, can I say, quieter and calmer. But it matters not what your beliefs regarding good moral behaviour, for there is a very simple answer which I will give at the end of this dissertation.

As we grow from babyhood to infancy, our parents begin to teach us how to behave, especially as we grow up towards the teen years. There are exceptions of course, for whatever reason, one of children will grow up to being difficult and non co-operative. But that apart, usually we learn to co-operate and do as we are told, because if we don’t then we don’t get our own way or what we want. Good moral behaviour is a reciprocation and quote: ‘Do unto others as you would be done by.’ This is a natural event that helps the continuation of the family, group, tribe, community etc. Without some kind of good behaviour and moral codes these groups would fall apart. So it matters not one iota whether you believe in a god or not. Now, just to highlight good morals etc, within the various religious sects we find there are priests, vicars, ministers, who have sexually abused children. In hospitals and children’s homes people who are looked up to and trusted have abused that trust by sexually assaulting their patients etc. Double standards, positive and negative, either one is picked to satisfy personal cravings. One last shot across the bows: When people are rude to someone else in these discussions it frequently results in a nasty, negative response. Point proved?

BUT, and here’s my analysis: As I’ve said in other discussions you cannot have one without the other. Positives and negatives rely on each other to give their existence some meaning and strength. Simplified, how can you appreciate a nice warm day if you’ve never experienced a cold frosty day? How can you judge the taste of something sweet if you’ve never tasted anything sour. How can we judge someone as being nice and helpful if we’ve never encountered anyone obstructive and nasty, and of course visa-versa. Being nice to each other is the positive side of life but it has it’s balancing opposite, negative, one cannot exist without the other.

Have a nice day folks, and be nice to each other, who knows what rewards you’ll receive?

by stardesk Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:58 pm

Two days later and no response? Come on, get the old grey matter working.

by eddie Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:44 pm

Why should God do anything about evil people?

by stardesk Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:47 pm

Hi Eddie. The simple answer to that is why did/does he allow evil to interfere with his creations, human, animal, and everything else. If you spent time and effort creating or making something in your house, would you stand by and watch someone deliberately spoil it. No, of course not, you'd step in and stop it. As God didn't stop Satan, and all the trials and tribulations of the planet are blamed on him, I can only conclude that Satan isn't a fallen Angel but he is also a god, as powerful as god himself.

So, that to my mind is all a myth, for one negates the other.

by Guest Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:15 pm

eddie wrote:Why should God do anything about evil people?

The more telling point or question would be why did if such an entity exist, allow evil to come into being in the first place Eddie.
Based off the Abrahamic deities which place fear, vengeance and punishment above love, you could then argue, evil already existed in this deity from the start. As that would then explain why a deity supposedly all knowing and powerful, would have massive insecurity issues based on the religious text and be led more so by negative emotions

by eddie Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:16 am

stardesk wrote:Hi Eddie. The simple answer to that is why did/does he allow evil to interfere with his creations, human, animal, and everything else. If you spent time and effort creating or making something in your house, would you stand by and watch someone deliberately spoil it. No, of course not, you'd step in and stop it. As God didn't stop Satan, and all the trials and tribulations of the planet are blamed on him, I can only conclude that Satan isn't a fallen Angel but he is also a god, as powerful as god himself.

So, that to my mind is all a myth, for one negates the other.

Well that's very narrow minded of you star!
Why are you comparing God to a human? Gods reactions to a man's reactions?

How do you know he can? You're assuming you know what he's supposed to be about yet you know him as well or as little as you know......well, me.

If you think inside the box you won't see anything outside of the box.

by eddie Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:21 am

Perhaps what you all miss is this:
A being makes some stuff, makes some animals and tells them, go on, go off, I've given you the tools, the rest is up to you.....

Thousands of years later....

God (thinking) "Fucking idiots look what they are doing. You bear them, you nurture them, you teach them and give them every possible gift they could want and need and still they love the wild side and still they fuck up, and still they expect me to clear up....I send them the answers and they choose to ignore them, I speak to them all the time through all those dreams and songs and conversations they have with enlightened people and still they continue to fuck up. They still take my name in vain and THEY ARE STILL CALLING ME RELIGION WHEN MY NAME IS JUST.....GOD"

There you go. There's an explanation for you.

by veya_victaous Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:25 am

eddie wrote:Perhaps what you all miss is this:
A being makes some stuff, makes some animals and tells them, go on, go off, I've given you the tools, the rest is up to you.....

Thousands of years later....

God (thinking) "Fucking idiots look what they are doing. You bear them, you nurture them, you teach them and give them every possible gift they could want and need and still they love the wild side and still they fuck up, and still they expect me to clear up....I send them the answers and they choose to ignore them, I speak to them all the time through all those dreams and songs and conversations they have with enlightened people and still they continue to fuck up. They still take my name in vain and THEY ARE STILL CALLING ME RELIGION WHEN MY NAME IS JUST.....GOD"

There you go. There's an explanation for you.

Or Simply
We are a Child god's forgotten Science fair project geek

by Guest Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:30 am

eddie wrote:Perhaps what you all miss is this:
A being makes some stuff, makes some animals and tells them, go on, go off, I've given you the tools, the rest is up to you.....

Thousands of years later....

God (thinking) "Fucking idiots look what they are doing. You bear them, you nurture them, you teach them and give them every possible gift they could want and need and still they love the wild side and still they fuck up, and still they expect me to clear up....I send them the answers and they choose to ignore them, I speak to them all the time through all those dreams and songs and conversations they have with enlightened people and still they continue to fuck up. They still take my name in vain and THEY ARE STILL CALLING ME RELIGION WHEN MY NAME IS JUST.....GOD"

There you go. There's an explanation for you.

Which goes back to my point that this deity would be ruled by emotions and not reason
Again that would be something inherently evil. As again love is being superseded by now frustration. Which would be equivalent to a pet dog failing to be taught by a human owner. Even the Dogs intelligence would be that much nearer to humans, than say the supposed gap between this Abraham deity and humans, to place this frustration into some sort of context. Except in this instance the dog knows its owner and trainer exists. So would the owner be right to blame the dog? When what has been taught, so conflicts and contradicts, its no wonder the dog seems so confused and unable to understand. When we are frustrated by others Eddie, only we ourselves allow frustration to set in. If as seen the deity is known to be led by emotions, it would be no surprise then if he does just send down answers, where they constantly conflict and contradict. I mean like any rational person who clearly has if they exists, would admit to a failing in the design of the human species then. If the flaw is in the design, then it would be no surprise he would be frustrated, as he will have caused this by designing a flawed message that conflicts with countless other religions.. It would also prove that he would fundamentally lie to Muslims and Christians if he represented all deities and existed.

So to eve n better show why your point was so poor Eddie, I am going to use many of the exact same words, but change a couple to show why such a moody deity, would not even be worth talking about, let alone worshiping

Parent (thinking) "Daughter look what you are doing. I brought you into this world, nurtured you and have taught you everything I know, from understanding things from my own point of view. However daughter, I have failed to tell you that what I may back or believe will not be agreed with by others and we should always respect people having different beliefs. As long as they do not enforce them on anyone and on this you should always be outspoken and highly critical. I do not give you every present you want for a reason daughter. Mummy and daddy cannot wave a magic want and make anything from nothing appear. Of course we will try to if and of course you are well behaved. I love the wild side in you, it shows you are bursting with energy, prepared to challenge, speak out even. Now I know no matter how many times I tell you to be good, you still end up being bad, but no child is perfect and like every other child, they all make mistakes. Its what makes us most of all human...I will continue to guide you and in fact I may not even have all the answers, others will have different beliefs dependent on where they are born geographically. I continue to speak to people world wide through the internet and still they continue to fuck up. They still take some of my ideas in vain and THEY ARE STILL CALLING ME a conspiracy loon WHEN MY NAME IS JUST.....Eddie"

So I have no doubt you allow yourself to become frustrated with your daughter, when she is not listening Eddie.. You have of course cause yourself worked yourself up, as what we both know is that she is still fundamentally a child, care free and has no doubt an imagination the size of the the combined universes. She will know the basic right from wrong, but not much else really, because a child at that age has their brain still growing and developing. Just as we constantly expand our knowledge.We know as parents sometimes we have to be patient and that it further is complicated when other family members offer up their own 2.0 version on a particular right and wrong issue, which then furthers confuses your daughter.

by eddie Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:17 pm

Yep. God says all of that too.
It's religious nuts that have made out "he" is infallible.

by Guest Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:44 pm

eddie wrote:Yep. God says all of that too.
It's religious nuts that have made out "he" is infallible.

What it shows Eddie is that what is prescribed as the traits and actions of a supposed creator, in the bible and Quran. Is that this deity is a very bad role model as a parent to humanity.

Craves love and attention.
But its conditional love off believing in him and loving him, rendering the claim love at all to be moot.
Is a very jealous deity, as nobody is allowed to worship any others and even worse nothing at all.
So heinous is this crime to this deity, that those he finds guilty, will be cast into a placed called hell to be tortured in many various means for all time. I mean can you imagine placing such an unimaginable fear into our own children, if all parents acted like this deity and demanding love and belief from their children, otherwise the parents would then torture them.
There is also a punishment for every rule break, from the least offensive crimes all the way up to the ones punishable by death.

I mean I could go on Eddie but you get the point that this deity seems very much like the traits of a very angry and jealous human being, which would never cloud the judgement of something so supremely intelligent if it existed. its why fundamentally the Bible and Quran is man made.
In each they fail to grasp from the beginning what it would mean to be that highly intelligent. Of which such intelligence would know negative emotions are harmful.

The more likely scenario if at all a deity does exist, is that we would be just like how we treat every other species on this planet.
With little to no significance. The failing in humans is they centralize humans as to a meaning of life. It allows them mistakenly to think they are better and created solely for what amounts to be religiously, a flawed project. Its this arrogance how religious people perceive themselves and as seen it has allowed for over 2000 years for many people to suffer under religious bullshit.
So if a deity existed, we would be viewed just like every other species on the planet, which would be part of the cycle of the earths life

by eddie Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:45 pm

I agree. That's why I don't subscribe to a religion; it creates more questions than answers for me.

by Eilzel Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:48 pm

If god doesn't care about his creation then there is zero reason to worship him.

The idea of a non interfering god who doesn't care about the evil he created is more believable than one that does, but still flawed. Where did he come from?

by veya_victaous Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:37 am

Eilzel wrote:If god doesn't care about his creation then there is zero reason to worship him.

The idea of a non interfering god who doesn't care about the evil he created is more believable than one that does, but still flawed. Where did he come from?

Blackhole

What Could God do about Evil? 2190311264

Wouldn't it be more logical to suggest if a Being made reality, as in the entire universe, but is not part of the universe, then there is no possible way to comprehend Something that by DEFINITION is outside of the reality your Brain is part of. Like we cannot comprehend anything faster than light because that is fast as the signals in brain travel

To Re work didges statement:
The more likely scenario if a deity does exist, is that we would be just like how we treat every other species on this planet. (or less)
With little to no significance. The failing in humans is they centralize humans as to a meaning of life. Nothing has changed with Atheists that still project this idea that the human experience is somehow relevant to the divine nature of the universe.

And besides the scenario of creating something and forgetting about it and coming back to it later and going well shit has spiralled out of control here is actually remarkably common
geek

by stardesk Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:03 am

Hi folks. There is one very simple answer to all the above: 'God made us in his image.'

I'm sure someone will say that only applies to our physical makeup, if so then he left us to find our own way mentaly. If we include our mental makeup, and considering the evilness in many people, then He too has evil traits. Well, we know that anyway when we consider his instructions to the Israelites on their journey to the so-called Promised Land, and encountering opposition from various peoples. Kill everyone, men. women, children.

What a loving father! Where the compassion, tolerance, guiding light. I can't help but laugh and be flippant: I presume he was sitting back in his chair with a glass of wine and a cute angel on his lap, saying 'Get on with it and sort yourselves out, you silly buggers.

There again, he could be playing a board game with Satan, seeing who can score the most points.

by eddie Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:54 pm

Star I actually think you want to believe in God! You do spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find ways to believe in him by saying how much you don't!

Look, it's just as possible that he exists as he doesn't.

Pictures of Space and planets could well have been developed in a lab somewhere....perhaps space doesn't exist either?
You haven't see it with your own two eyes, have you?

by stardesk Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:05 pm

Hi Eddie. I can fully understand what you are saying, it looks as though I’m looking for proof of God, but that’s not the case. I’ve been there and done that, I’ve been through the tunnel of belief systems and come out at the end into the light of reasoning, logic and factual proof. The only way I could ever believe in a God now is if there was a blinding light shining down on me from Heaven, and God spoke to me, but that isn’t likely to happen.

I don’t want to come across as boring but I can only keep repeating myself: Christianity and its many sects base there beliefs on the Bible which, of course, starts at the beginning, Genesis, and in Genesis we find several accounts of events that just could not have happened. It’s partly those stories which helped me forward away from believing in a divine being, whatever name and religious faction it may be.

Those stories are like someone building a house in a known earthquake or volcanic zone, one day it will shake to the ground, as has happened only a few days ago. Our planet, and indeed the Universe, is not stable and if there be a god who created everything then he didn’t do a very good job. It is events and situations like that which helped me forward, away from depending on a mythical being.

I hope you understand me better now.

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:33 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Eddie. I can fully understand what you are saying, it looks as though I’m looking for proof of God, but that’s not the case. I’ve been there and done that, I’ve been through the tunnel of belief systems and come out at the end into the light of reasoning, logic and factual proof. The only way I could ever believe in a God now is if there was a blinding light shining down on me from Heaven, and God spoke to me, but that isn’t likely to happen.

I don’t want to come across as boring but I can only keep repeating myself: Christianity and its many sects base there beliefs on the Bible which, of course, starts at the beginning, Genesis, and in Genesis we find several accounts of events that just could not have happened. It’s partly those stories which helped me forward away from believing in a divine being, whatever name and religious faction it may be.

Those stories are like someone building a house in a known earthquake or volcanic zone, one day it will shake to the ground, as has happened only a few days ago. Our planet, and indeed the Universe, is not stable and if there be a god who created everything then he didn’t do a very good job. It is events and situations like that which helped me forward, away from depending on a mythical being.

I hope you understand me better now.

So what's your problem? Are you just annoyed that other people do have faith?

by Guest Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:44 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
stardesk wrote:Hi Eddie. I can fully understand what you are saying, it looks as though I’m looking for proof of God, but that’s not the case. I’ve been there and done that, I’ve been through the tunnel of belief systems and come out at the end into the light of reasoning, logic and factual proof. The only way I could ever believe in a God now is if there was a blinding light shining down on me from Heaven, and God spoke to me, but that isn’t likely to happen.

I don’t want to come across as boring but I can only keep repeating myself: Christianity and its many sects base there beliefs on the Bible which, of course, starts at the beginning, Genesis, and in Genesis we find several accounts of events that just could not have happened. It’s partly those stories which helped me forward away from believing in a divine being, whatever name and religious faction it may be.

Those stories are like someone building a house in a known earthquake or volcanic zone, one day it will shake to the ground, as has happened only a few days ago. Our planet, and indeed the Universe, is not stable and if there be a god who created everything then he didn’t do a very good job. It is events and situations like that which helped me forward, away from depending on a mythical being.

I hope you understand me better now.

So what's your problem? Are you just annoyed that other people do have faith?

More like what the fuck is your problem you get so defensive when people speak about the stupidity of the Abrahamic deity?

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:47 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So what's your problem? Are you just annoyed that other people do have faith?

More like what the fuck is your problem you get so defensive when people speak about the stupidity of the Abrahamic deity?

I wasn't addressing you, so your rudeness is a waste of time.

by Guest Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:49 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

More like what the fuck is your problem you get so defensive when people speak about the stupidity of the Abrahamic deity?

I wasn't addressing you, so your rudeness is a waste of time.

Well I am addressing you for continually jumping onto Stardesk for having an opinion

It works both ways, if you do not like it then stop being an arse yourself

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:50 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I wasn't addressing you, so your rudeness is a waste of time.

Well I am addressing you for continually jumping onto Stardesk for having an opinion

It works both ways, if you do not like it then stop being an arse yourself

Well I'm not going to address your question because I wasn't addressing you in the first place. You can whine as much as you like about that.

by Guest Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well I am addressing you for continually jumping onto Stardesk for having an opinion

It works both ways, if you do not like it then stop being an arse yourself

Well I'm not going to address your question because I wasn't addressing you in the first place. You can whine as much as you like about that.

Well everytime you act like a spoilt nasty brat, I am going to jump on you, so best you get used to it.

Its not stardesk's fault you are that naive to bullshit

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:53 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well I'm not going to address your question because I wasn't addressing you in the first place. You can whine as much as you like about that.

Well everytime you act like a spoilt nasty brat, I am going to jump on you, so best you get used to it.

Its not stardesk's fault you are that naive to bullshit

I can put you on ignore actually. I do that quite often - hopefully before you go into complete meltdown mode and go out and assault someone.

by Guest Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:54 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well everytime you act like a spoilt nasty brat, I am going to jump on you, so best you get used to it.

Its not stardesk's fault you are that naive to bullshit

I can put you on ignore actually. I do that quite often - hopefully before you go into complete meltdown mode and go out and assault someone.

You can do as you please,m which will not stop me responding to your vileness

Best suck it up love or learn to have a personality overhaul

by veya_victaous Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:47 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi folks. There is one very simple answer to all the above: 'God made us in his image.'

I'm sure someone will say that only applies to our physical makeup, if so then he left us to find our own way mentaly. If we include our mental makeup, and considering the evilness in many people, then He too has evil traits. Well, we know that anyway when we consider his instructions to the Israelites on their journey to the so-called Promised Land, and encountering opposition from various peoples. Kill everyone, men. women, children.

What a loving father! Where the compassion, tolerance, guiding light. I can't help but laugh and be flippant: I presume he was sitting back in his chair with a glass of wine and a cute angel on his lap, saying 'Get on with it and sort yourselves out, you silly buggers.

There again, he could be playing a board game with Satan, seeing who can score the most points.

Just so you know I don’t think Anyone on this Forum believes Your statement that he made us in his image.

But to humour your proposition....

Man is a chaotic creature, like all life that is a product of evolution in a chaotic universe. Therefore IF he made us in his image and we are chaotic, then that implies he is also Chaotic.

Pretty much explains everything 'God is perfect, but perfection is Chaos'
in some ways science agrees, as chaos translates to adaptability increasing once chance of successful meeting the evolutionary drivers.

by stardesk Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:48 pm

Hi Didge, thanks for defending me. I don't suppose Raggy can help it.

RAGGY, this is a discussion and, like all discussions no matter what the subject matter, you will always find people of different opinions. Thus, in these discussions I say what I believe and you of course say what you believe, hence we are at cross-purposes. I'm not being rude to Creationists, just trying to get them to see that the belief in a god is a primitive myth, and bears no relationship to reality. OK my friend?

Hi Veya, I agree with what you said, and if there be a god then he's a god of chaos.

by Guest Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:51 pm

If perfection means an ultimate, then how can perfection be chaos, if then that chaos can destroy itself? That is not perfection, hence why chaos can never be classed as perftion. To obtain a goal, as perfection is, the goal would never be to destroy yourself, as you would never obtain pefection, as to die is very easy. The only challenge death has, is not fearing it and chaos requires fear.

by veya_victaous Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:54 pm

Star I actually think you want to believe in God! You do spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find ways to believe in him by saying how much you don't! I agree and the biblical one at that

Look, it's just as possible that he exists as he doesn't. not quite, far more chance of something existing than nothing, but zero of the one prescribed in the bible.

Pictures of Space and planets could well have been developed in a lab somewhere....perhaps space doesn't exist either?
You haven't see it with your own two eyes, have you? You are going to make me get a photo telescope
the pictures look like the sky when it's clear enough and there isn't the light pollution, that is part of what made me fall in love with the house i bought

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