Free speech....clampdown or not?

by Syl Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:17 pm

So the latest 'celeb' in trouble for making an unfunny very un pc 'joke is Jimmy Carr (again) should he be forced to grovel and apologise? or should people be allowed to speak, or tell jokes unhindered by the distress they may cause?

The 'joke' was btw ..."Is a dwarf an abortion that made it?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/jimmy-carr-standup-tour-abortion-dwarf-joke-backlash-criticism-a8968486.html

by nicko Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:19 pm

Bit naughty I think !

by Syl Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:48 pm

I agree Nicko, but I dont find Carr funny at the best of times.

Free speech is an odd one when people dont have a gob filter.
I know comedians especially like to push boundaries, and what may upset one others will find hilarious, but should a line be drawn ? and if people overstep it what comeback if any should there be?

by Eilzel Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:06 pm

I think it often depends on if it comes from a bad place. Jimmy Carr is obviously not hateful toward dwarfs. He's joked about gay people and aids, Donald Trump, the Queen being Diana's killer and the Holocaust.

I find him hilarious, but can see him being not for everyone.

Those who don't get him, shouldn't watch him. Easy.

If, on the other hand, this joke came from someone with a known prejudice against dwarfs, it'd be a different matter imo - because they'd partly mean it, which is sick.

by eddie Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:23 pm

Nothing is off the cards in comedy, as far as I’m concerned.
What some get offended over, others don’t, so what makes a joke offensive?

Free speech....clampdown or not? Be733510

by eddie Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:31 pm

”People think someone joking about their issue is the worst thing in the world”

Ricky Gervais.

Sums it up well, I think.

by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:57 pm

Anybody wishing to exercise their right to free speech also needs to be ready to deal with the reasonable consequences of what they say.

It seems like a lot of people who complain that they have no freedom of speech actually are upset that they don't have freedom from the reasonable consequences of their speech.

Now, if someone is killed, injured, jailed, etc. for speaking freely, that's not a reasonable consequence.

But you can't make jokes like Carr's and not expect there to be a reaction -- that's the point of that type of humor in the first place.

by eddie Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:04 pm

Of course you have to take the backlash....from the offended.

Offended by their issue, of course.

by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:48 pm

eddie wrote:Of course you have to take the backlash....from the offended.

Offended by their issue, of course.

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

by eddie Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:59 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Of course you have to take the backlash....from the offended.

Offended by their issue, of course.

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue? Rolling Eyes

Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:04 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Of course you have to take the backlash....from the offended.

Offended by their issue, of course.

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue?
Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

Of course, nobody's obligated to care what anybody else thinks. I just get tired of people who seem to think they can say whatever outrageous thing they want, and then complain that their freedom of speech is being taken away if there's a backlash.

by eddie Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:05 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Of course you have to take the backlash....from the offended.

Offended by their issue, of course.

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue?
Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

Of course, nobody's obligated to care what anybody else thinks. I just get tired of people who seem to think they can say whatever outrageous thing they want, and then complain that their freedom of speech is being taken away if there's a backlash.

Oh hell yes, that’s just hypocritical.

by Raggamuffin Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:09 am

That's a horrible joke! Why on earth would he think it's at all funny?

Billy Connelly was as bad with his Ken Bigley "joke", and Jo Brand was no better with her "joke" about battery acid.

I don't generally like comedians anyway because they're mostly not amusing.

by nicko Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:50 am

Frankie Boyle was the worst of the lot !

by Syl Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:29 am

eddie wrote:”People think someone joking about their issue is the worst thing in the world”

Ricky Gervais.

Sums it up well, I think.

I agree, that does sum it up perfectly.
After I got married my mum really hated most mother in law jokes. Razz

by Syl Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:34 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue?
Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

Of course, nobody's obligated to care what anybody else thinks. I just get tired of people who seem to think they can say whatever outrageous thing they want, and then complain that their freedom of speech is being taken away if there's a backlash.

I agree with this too...….be as outrageous as you like, but accept the consequences.
They generally get the person more publicity anyway, and sometimes even boost their career once the initial outrage has been forgotten.

The days of Stan Boardman Fokker jokes being used to finish a career once and for all are long gone.

by Raggamuffin Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:02 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue?
Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

It doesn't have to be their issue. I don't have dwarfism, so it's not my issue. However, I still think it's horrible. It's simply not on to joke about that kind of thing, especially as it implies that the child was unwanted by the mother.

by HoratioTarr Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:47 pm

Syl wrote:So the latest 'celeb' in trouble for making an unfunny very un pc 'joke is Jimmy Carr (again) should he be forced to grovel and apologise? or should people be allowed to speak, or tell jokes unhindered by the distress they may cause?

The 'joke' was btw ..."Is a dwarf an abortion that made it?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/jimmy-carr-standup-tour-abortion-dwarf-joke-backlash-criticism-a8968486.html

Is that Jimmy Carr's idea of hilarity? I can't stand these so called comedians who try to get a laugh at the expense of someone else with a condition/disease/looks/age/sex etc that they can't help. It's one thing to take the piss out of some ego-blown celebrity who's disfigured themselves through excessive plastic surgery, and quite another to be cruel about a Down's syndrome person.

And these same people are the first ones to jump on the leftie pc bandwagon when there's some starving 'migrants' to save...so long as it's not on their doorstep.

by nicko Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:58 pm

by Syl Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:38 pm

by eddie Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:06 pm

I guess I am really just not easily offended. I don’t understand being offended at a joke. It is meant as a joke and why not be able to laugh at something? Does it mean you’d be mean to a person with a “condition”?

And what happens if you want to laugh but stop yourself because you think “Oh no I mustn’t?!”

You still found it funny, right?

by eddie Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

But that, too, is their right to free speech.

Yeah....of course, everyone has a right to free speech.
But who cares what the “offended” say because of “their” issue?
Funny is funny. Your jokes are often offensive...to some...

It doesn't have to be their issue. I don't have dwarfism, so it's not my issue. However, I still think it's horrible. It's simply not on to joke about that kind of thing, especially as it implies that the child was unwanted by the mother.

But it’s a joke! Jokes aren’t meant to imply anything?
The fact you think it implies anything and then get offended by it, IS your issue!

by Maddog Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:12 pm

The problem with those that attack speech they don't like, is that they tend to attack the person making the speech, and judging him. They take it personal, when it wasn't meant to be personal. They can't accept that it's a joke, or a different opinion. They try to ruin the person saying something they don't like.

It's a joke, not a dick. Don't take it so hard.

by eddie Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:19 pm

Maddog wrote:The problem with those that attack speech they don't like, is that they tend to attack the person making the speech, and judging him. They take it personal, when it wasn't meant to be personal. They can't accept that it's a joke, or a different opinion. They try to ruin the person saying something they don't like.

It's a joke, not a dick. Don't take it so hard.

Absolutely! I just think people love to be offended.

by Ben Reilly Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:24 pm

Maddog wrote:The problem with those that attack speech they don't like, is that they tend to attack the person making the speech, and judging him. They take it personal, when it wasn't meant to be personal. They can't accept that it's a joke, or a different opinion. They try to ruin the person saying something they don't like.

It's a joke, not a dick. Don't take it so hard.

Reminds me of an observation about the English I read long ago, that they'd see an actor in a play and afterward, say, "He was absolute rubbish in that. Can't wait to see his next play."

It is important not to make snap judgments.

by eddie Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:27 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:The problem with those that attack speech they don't like, is that they tend to attack the person making the speech, and judging him. They take it personal, when it wasn't meant to be personal. They can't accept that it's a joke, or a different opinion. They try to ruin the person saying something they don't like.

It's a joke, not a dick. Don't take it so hard.

Reminds me of an observation about the English I read long ago, that they'd see an actor in a play and afterward, say, "He was absolute rubbish in that. Can't wait to see his next play."

It is important not to make snap judgments.

It’s also important not to take life too seriously. I mean, come on, a joke is just a joke.

by Syl Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:44 am

But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:55 am

Syl wrote:But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

I actually did. Not because I think dwarfs are funny or ridiculous, but the "abortion that made it" phrase makes me laugh. I might tell eddie that her mom is an abortion that made it, right now.

by Syl Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:02 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Syl wrote:But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

I actually did. Not because I think dwarfs are funny or ridiculous, but the "abortion that made it" phrase makes me laugh. I might tell eddie that her mom is an abortion that made it, right now.

Have you heard the very northern expression 'there is nowt as queer as folk'? Finding comments like this funny sort of proves it.. rabbit

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:05 am

Syl wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Syl wrote:But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

I actually did. Not because I think dwarfs are funny or ridiculous, but the "abortion that made it" phrase makes me laugh. I might tell eddie that her mom is an abortion that made it, right now.

Have you heard the very northern expression 'there is nowt as queer as folk'? Finding comments like this funny sort of proves it..

Yes I have, and I love it. One of the first things that intellectually attracted me to eddie, in fact, was that I could tell that she loves how queer folk can be, and like me, it makes her happy.

by eddie Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:06 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Syl wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Syl wrote:But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

I actually did. Not because I think dwarfs are funny or ridiculous, but the "abortion that made it" phrase makes me laugh. I might tell eddie that her mom is an abortion that made it, right now.

Have you heard the very northern expression 'there is nowt as queer as folk'? Finding comments like this funny sort of proves it..

Yes I have, and I love it. One of the first things that intellectually attracted me to eddie, in fact, was that I could tell that she loves how queer folk can be, and like me, it makes her happy.

Amen to that. We have a knack of honing in on odd stuff.

by Eilzel Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:07 am

Syl wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Syl wrote:But jokes are supposed to be funny.
Does anyone here find the dwarf comment funny?

I actually did. Not because I think dwarfs are funny or ridiculous, but the "abortion that made it" phrase makes me laugh. I might tell eddie that her mom is an abortion that made it, right now.

Have you heard the very northern expression 'there is nowt as queer as folk'? Finding comments like this funny sort of proves it..

As a tweet it isn't really funny imo. A tweet can't give all the context or facial expressions (of which Carr is undoubtedly the best lol).

But as one in a string of funny/controversial jokes it'd be hilarious. And that's really what Carr is all about Smile

by eddie Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:08 am

The point is this: everything can be funny if you just remember it’s taken as a joke.

by Syl Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:12 am

It's a true expression, folk are queer....queer as in the old fashioned sense.
Humour, like everything is subjective, if anyone finds remarks like that funny it's their prerogative, and mine to think they are queer for doing so.

by Eilzel Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:16 am

Syl wrote:It's a true expression, folk are queer....queer as in the old fashioned sense.
Humour, like everything is subjective, if anyone finds remarks like that funny it's their prerogative, and mine to think they are queer for doing so.

They made an awesome TV show playing on the phrase Cool

As an aside, I'm currently rereading The Lord of the Rings, and surprised at just how often queer, queerer, queerest and queerness are used Shocked

by Syl Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:19 am

eddie wrote:The point is this: everything can be funny if you just remember it’s taken as a joke.

I dont agree. I'm not precious about jokes against anyone, dwarfs included.....the Ricky Gervais song 'Equality street' has a couple of hilarious lines in it about dwarfs.....that IS funny, but the cruel comment Carr made has no humour, just nastiness....imo.
And that's the thing really, it's personal opinion and taste.
Just as well we all differ.

by Syl Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:21 am

Eilzel wrote:
Syl wrote:It's a true expression, folk are queer....queer as in the old fashioned sense.
Humour, like everything is subjective, if anyone finds remarks like that funny it's their prerogative, and mine to think they are queer for doing so.

They made an awesome TV show playing on the phrase

As an aside, I'm currently rereading The Lord of the Rings, and surprised at just how often queer, queerer, queerest and queerness are used

I remember it, set in the gay village in Manchester, it was good.

by eddie Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:22 am

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:The point is this: everything can be funny if you just remember it’s taken as a joke.

I dont agree. I'm not precious about jokes against anyone, dwarfs included.....the Ricky Gervais song 'Equality street' has a couple of hilarious lines in it about dwarfs.....that IS funny, but the cruel comment Carr made has no humour, just nastiness....imo.
And that's the thing really, it's personal opinion and taste.
Just as well we all differ.

I’m not a fan of Jimmy Carr simply because I don’t find him all that funny but I don’t find his joke offensive.
And yep, we are all different.

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:09 am

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It doesn't have to be their issue. I don't have dwarfism, so it's not my issue. However, I still think it's horrible. It's simply not on to joke about that kind of thing, especially as it implies that the child was unwanted by the mother.

But it’s a joke! Jokes aren’t meant to imply anything?
The fact you think it implies anything and then get offended by it, IS your issue!

I suppose it depends on your sense of humour. I don't think it's funny, and I don't get why anyone would. There are loads of things comedians can talk about and be funny rather than take cheap shots like that.

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:20 am

eddie wrote:The point is this: everything can be funny if you just remember it’s taken as a joke.

You didn't find Philagain's joke about your friend funny did you? Come one, not everything in life is a huge joke. A good comedian will observe people and life, and comment in a funny way about life in general - there's a skill to it which most of them don't have IMO.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:00 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

But it’s a joke! Jokes aren’t meant to imply anything?
The fact you think it implies anything and then get offended by it, IS your issue!

I suppose it depends on your sense of humour. I don't think it's funny, and I don't get why anyone would. There are loads of things comedians can talk about and be funny rather than take cheap shots like that.

You have a right not to like a joke, but a comdian should have a right to tell what ever jokes they like. Perosnally I dont like Holocaust jokes, and I will openly condemn them, though many are not done from a position of hate. I just think its the wrong subject to joke about. Though again they have a right to joke about this if they want to.

The reality is jokes generally come from a position of humour and not hate. Though some are born from a hateful stance. Jimmy Carr is not hateful but trying to be funny. In reality he takes the piss and micky out of everyone. Whether people find that funny or not is up to them. In reality many people do have a sense of humour failure and in reality. If we cannot laugh at ourselves. Then people will always lack a sense of humour.

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:05 am

I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to tell sick "jokes". It's up to people to vote with their feet - ie, don't go and see him, say you think his joke was sick, and that's what I'm doing.

I don't think a person with dwarfism would laugh at themselves re the thought that their mother didn't want them and caused them to have dwarfism. I also don't think that indicates a lack of sense of humour.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:12 am

Raggamuffin wrote:I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to tell sick "jokes". It's up to people to vote with their feet - ie, don't go and see him, say you think his joke was sick, and that's what I'm doing.

I don't think a person with dwarfism would laugh at themselves re the thought that their mother didn't want them and caused them to have dwarfism. I also don't think that indicates a lack of sense of humour.

Never claimed you did say they dont have a right to joke and I am sure if someone who was of small stature told the joke, then there would not be any complaints. I agree that if people dont find him funny, then dont go and watch him. I am sure some small staure people would not find this funny and I am sure some also would. But I do think if we can laugh at ourselves, then its that much more less likely to get offended by jokes. The intent is important and here clearly its meant as a joke. J

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:13 am

I mean this is a super clever joke by Sarah Silverman. Where she litteraly has the audiance in utter silence, concerned, emphasising and then hits them with brilliant comedy. She makes jokes about the Holocaust also and is never afraid to be outlandish in jokes, but then she is Jewish. Which I think maks it okay to then make holocaust jokes

https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/1140686676416589825

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:20 am

phildidge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to tell sick "jokes". It's up to people to vote with their feet - ie, don't go and see him, say you think his joke was sick, and that's what I'm doing.

I don't think a person with dwarfism would laugh at themselves re the thought that their mother didn't want them and caused them to have dwarfism. I also don't think that indicates a lack of sense of humour.

Never claimed you did say they dont have a right to joke and I am sure if someone who was of small stature told the joke, then there would not be any complaints. I agree that if people dont find him funny, then dont go and watch him. I am sure some small staure people would not find this funny and I am sure some also would. But I do think if we can laugh at ourselves, then its that much more less likely to get offended by jokes. The intent is important and here clearly its meant as a joke. J

It's one thing to tell a joke about yourself, and another to hear someone else do it - in order to get paid for doing so. People can laugh at themselves but they're not obliged to laugh at someone else's sick "joke", and they shouldn't be accused of having no sense of humour.

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:22 am

Poor Ken Bigley never had the chance to laugh at Billy Connelly's "joke" did he? Perhaps Ken's family thought it was hilarious though. Rolling Eyes

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:23 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Never claimed you did say they dont have a right to joke and I am sure if someone who was of small stature told the joke, then there would not be any complaints. I agree that if people dont find him funny, then dont go and watch him. I am sure some small staure people would not find this funny and I am sure some also would. But I do think if we can laugh at ourselves, then its that much more less likely to get offended by jokes. The intent is important and here clearly its meant as a joke. J

It's one thing to tell a joke about yourself, and another to hear someone else do it - in order to get paid for doing so. People can laugh at themselves but they're not obliged to laugh at someone else's sick "joke", and they shouldn't be accused of having no sense of humour.

Who claimed anyone is obliged to laugh at something they do not personnally find funny?

Nobody claimed they had no sense of humour either.

Not even what I said.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:27 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Poor Ken Bigley never had the chance to laugh at Billy Connelly's "joke" did he? Perhaps Ken's family thought it was hilarious though.

Well we actually know how one of his family felt Rags

Paul Bigley, who has been campaigning for his brother’s release, said that he was not a fan of the Scottish comedian’s material.

He said: "He’s a very charming chap. I’m not commenting. He’s not my type. Each to their own - if that’s what turns him on. I don’t like his humour anyway. If you want to be entertained by a person of that calibre, by all means go and queue up in the rain.

"That’s my comment; that’s all I’m going to say."

by Raggamuffin Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:35 am

phildidge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's one thing to tell a joke about yourself, and another to hear someone else do it - in order to get paid for doing so. People can laugh at themselves but they're not obliged to laugh at someone else's sick "joke", and they shouldn't be accused of having no sense of humour.

Who claimed anyone is obliged to laugh at something they do not personnally find funny?

Nobody claimed they had no sense of humour either.

Not even what I said.

Yes you did.

In reality many people do have a sense of humour failure and in reality. If we cannot laugh at ourselves. Then people will always lack a sense of humour.

by Guest Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:40 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Who claimed anyone is obliged to laugh at something they do not personnally find funny?

Nobody claimed they had no sense of humour either.

Not even what I said.

Yes you did.

In reality many people do have a sense of humour failure and in reality. If we cannot laugh at ourselves. Then people will always lack a sense of humour.

Not even the same ball park, so stop lying.

Lacking something does not mean rthen you have no sense of humour

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