First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

LONDON -- In recent days, how many of us gasped at photos of emaciated Syrians in the besieged town of Madaya? In light of this tragedy, the post-Cologne fence-building and anti-refugee postulating around Europe must surely be even more alarming. The Syrian humanitarian crisis remains as desperate as ever, but after Cologne's New Year's Eve mass sexual assaults, right-wing populist "refugees not welcome" sentiments seem to be gaining ground throughout Europe. Monday morning also brought allegations that Swedish police covered up group sexual assaults in Stockholm, too, because of fears of a right-wing backlash. In an increasingly globalized news culture, and particularly when it comes to EU countries like Germany, "their" concerns are frequently "our" concerns, too. All over Europe, merely condemning right-wingers as bigots will neither quell popular fears nor win the argument. Liberals must look in the mirror. And then we must make some concessions.

Since reports of the Cologne attacks emerged over a week ago, accusations of police and government cover-ups have flourished in a kind of perfect storm of liberal conspiracy narratives. Sadly, it's not hard to see why. Up to 1,000 men said to be "of North African and Arab appearance" conducted coordinated attacks on women and teenage girls -- surrounding them in groups, grabbing and groping them so hard they left bruises on their bodies -- but an initial police press release claimed the night had"passed off peacefully." Then, after revelations, days of insistence that there was no evidence for asylum seeker involvement followed, with Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker even branding any suggestion of refugee involvement "impermissible," an internal police report emerged last Thursday. German magazine Der Spiegel claims to have seen the report and said it revealed that some of the attackers asserted they were Syrian refugees. One reportedly told an officer: "You have to treat me kindly. Mrs. Merkel invited me." Another apparently ripped up residence papers in front of officers, shouting defiantly: "You can't do anything to me. I can get a new one tomorrow."

Perhaps because the police report appeared to give credence to a some-bad-apples-among-the-innocent-refugees narrative that we liberals often like to pretend has no bearing, for a whole day after it emerged in Germany, only the right-wing press in Britain deigned to publish it. In some cases even as late as Friday morning, there were left-leaning articles sticking with the "nobody really knows if migrants were involved" rhetoric. Perhaps purely because this is the sort of thing the xenophobes will jump on, many on the left seemed reluctant to touch it. Concern for minorities, or knee-jerk political tribalism at its finest?

When political correctness reaches the point in which people are -- never mind being afraid to express opinion -- afraid to report police memos, then we know sanity has been left behind. This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism. Now, German police have publicly confirmed that more than half those questioned so far are indeed asylum seekers, and the right is doing its victory dances. Scroll down any comment thread and amidst the growing calls to leave the EU, you'll find "Libtards" and "the left" named as the personae non gratae in this whole affair. And for American readers, understand, this is exactly the sort of thing that Trump and his cronies can seize on, a perfect "Europe is being cowed" cautionary tale. In the words of an anti-racist Cologne protester on Saturday: "It's not good to 'protect' us, it just makes the racism worse."

Frankly, we on the left must wake up and become more willing to describe the world as it is. To confront the fact, for example, that some dangerous undesirables will indeed have found their way into the EU amongst all the decent and deserving refugees. If not, we face the prospect of being ruled for the foreseeable future not only by those on the right who want to "stoke up anti-immigration rhetoric," but also who will happily dismantle our public services. Right-wing populism finds a perfect ideological punchbag in a woolly liberalism that often fails to stand up for liberal principles. In the case of Cologne, we've seen not just obfuscating, but also what might be called victim-blaming. Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker, for example, advised women on a "code of conduct" for public celebrations, including "keeping more than an arm's length away" from men, even reportedly warning against being in a "celebratory mood." Channel 4 News broadcast an interview with a Tunisian refugee who said with a straight face: "It is not the fault of the refugees -- the couple of refugees who were there, who might also be culprits. It's the fault of the laws and bureaucracy in Germany that say you have to wait six months or one year for the day when you can find a legal job." I'm sorry, what?

Recently, two activists I know freshly returned from work with migrants and admitted sheepishly to me that their time on the front line had led them to consider -- briefly -- that perhaps Germany should close its borders. They told me that most of the migrants they had seen were not actually refugees. And then they looked at me as though they expected I would roundly accuse them of being Nazis. Unsurprising, since nuance and pragmatism are frequently becoming trickier in the ideological battle trenches of the digital era. Perhaps because of the constant demand for brevity in tweets and Internet comment pieces, a popular, and often false, thought association ensues: if you think this, then you must also think that. Suppressing debate and dissent within the left itself, this phenomenon has become a kind of digital McCarthyism. And it is driving people away from the very political associations that would protect their public services and democratic rights. Suggest last week that any asylum-seeker sex attackers be deported, for example, and sit back and wait for the Hitler comparisons to be pelted at you faster than you can say "no platform." Personally I am firmly left of the political center and share concerns about anti-refugee sentiment but -- and call me Mrs. Picky -- I draw the line at welcoming sex offenders into Blighty for toast and tea.

Last week it was revealed that 40,000 Syrians -- including many women and children -- trapped in Madaya because of Assad's war, were resorting to eating grass as they starved to death. One must ask: how is covering up for young men who seem determined to gleefully flout European norms and laws going to help those thousands of innocent would-be refugees who might otherwise be offered a haven were it not for the impending right-wing blowback against the worst excesses of liberal apologism? Merkel's seeking of greater powers of deportation for asylum seekers found guilty of, say, sexual assault, has been characterized by some on the left as "bowing to populist pressure." But is Merkel justified? In our reluctance to face up to the painful -- yet credible -- reports of migrant involvement in these horrific Cologne attacks, we have unwittingly given succor to those who would deny haven to any refugees at all


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bonny-brooks/cologne-sweden-assault-populism_b_8965118.html?utm_hp_ref=world

Wonder what some people will make of this then?

Indeed and also an honest Leftie that wrote this as well

Sadly I have to admit Tommy seems to be right that many migrants have gotten in off the back of the refugee crises which makes the situation even worse as now refugees will also suffer off the back of an open door policy that should have checked and vetted people. Happy to admit in this instance he was right, as was Victor.

Didge, I have always been against outright racism etc as have you, but even I could see this coming.

The only people who refuse to see it coming are people that HATE being wrong.
Think about it.

This is very true Eddie, some people are being very much in denial at the moment because we should resolve this so that the matterr does not get worse and then the doors are shut to many geuine asylum seeker who do need shelter. That would be a travesty. Again I am all for helping people, but clearly many dodgy people have been let in whether as sylum seekers or migrants and its going to blow up big time I think

Isnt this EXACTLY what I have been argueing for over a year now???

AND if you are NOT careful you WILL end up with a hard line neo nazi type govt.

YES I suppose I could be described as a nationalistic socialist....

what do you want...

a nationalistic socialist...or a national socialist (aka hitlerist).

opposition to stupidity ISNT nazism.though the left try to cast it as such

and as pointed out if you DO get hard line right, bang will go your public services...as we have already seen thanks to that goon Cameron.

Sassy asks why I dont go for corbyn and labour....

I think the O/P from didge describes one very good reason....

...after Cologne's New Year's Eve mass sexual assaults, right-wing populist "refugees not welcome" sentiments seem to be gaining ground throughout Europe.

Bollocks!!!

Typical leftie style loaded waffle and misrepresentation of reality!!!

The majority of people of all eu countries have been against the mass immigration that has been being forced onto them for many years, for a number of reasons, one main one being the high levels of crime by immigrants generally...


People also know full well that huge numbers of the latest wave of so called "refugee" immigrants are not refugees at all but merely illegal immigrants/economic migrants, criminals, terrorists, undesirables etc who are using the loophole of claiming 'asylum/refugee' status purely for their own personal gain!!!


People are also well aware of the problems many of these people are causing by first hand experience of them and their hostile and criminal behaviour and high level of sexual assaults on women.


Of course local populations are against this!!! And rightly so!!! This does not make it "populist" OR "right wing"... or any other generalised negative stereotypical label that the progressives try to pin on anyone who is against their agenda...








Monday morning also brought allegations that Swedish police covered up group sexual assaults in Stockholm, too, because of fears of a right-wing backlash. In an increasingly globalized news culture, and particularly when it comes to EU countries like Germany, "their" concerns are frequently "our" concerns, too. All over Europe, merely condemning right-wingers as bigots will neither quell popular fears nor win the argument. Liberals must look in the mirror. And then we must make some concessions.

Since reports of the Cologne attacks emerged over a week ago, accusations of police and government cover-ups have flourished in a kind of perfect storm of liberal conspiracy narratives. Sadly, it's not hard to see why. Up to 1,000 men said to be "of North African and Arab appearance" conducted coordinated attacks on women and teenage girls -- surrounding them in groups, grabbing and groping them so hard they left bruises on their bodies -- but an initial police press release claimed the night had"passed off peacefully." Then, after revelations, days of insistence that there was no evidence for asylum seeker involvement followed, with Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker even branding any suggestion of refugee involvement "impermissible," an internal police report emerged last Thursday. German magazine Der Spiegel claims to have seen the report and said it revealed that some of the attackers asserted they were Syrian refugees. One reportedly told an officer: "You have to treat me kindly. Mrs. Merkel invited me."

Perhaps because the police report appeared to give credence to a some-bad-apples-among-the-innocent-refugees narrative that we liberals often like to pretend has no bearing, for a whole day after it emerged in Germany, only the right-wing press in Britain deigned to publish it. In some cases even as late as Friday morning, there were left-leaning articles sticking with the "nobody really knows if migrants were involved" rhetoric. Perhaps purely because this is the sort of thing the xenophobes will jump on, many on the left seemed reluctant

notice the continued labelling of "right wing" on anyone who maybe dared to mention the truth...?

And then we have the same left wing thinking that allowed thousands of young girls to be abused across the UK by Muslim peado gangs... better not say anything because any criticism of Muslims raping children would be xenophobia which is much worse of course...




Recently, two activists I know freshly returned from work with migrants and admitted sheepishly to me that their time on the front line had led them to consider -- briefly -- that perhaps Germany should close its borders. They told me that most of the migrants they had seen were not actually refugees. And then they looked at me as though they expected I would roundly accuse them of being Nazis. Unsurprising, since nuance and pragmatism are frequently becoming trickier in the ideological battle trenches of the digital era. Perhaps because of the constant demand for brevity in tweets and Internet comment pieces, a popular, and often false, thought association ensues: if you think this, then you must also think that. Suppressing debate and dissent within the left itself, this phenomenon has become a kind of digital McCarthyism. And it is driving people away from the very political associations that would protect their public services and democratic rights. Suggest last week that any asylum-seeker sex attackers be deported, for example, and sit back and wait for the Hitler comparisons to be pelted at you faster than you can say "no platform." Personally I am firmly left of the political center and share concerns about anti-refugee sentiment but -- and call me Mrs. Picky -- I draw the line at welcoming sex offenders into Blighty for toast and tea.


This is progressive thinking in action in 3 progressive stages...


1. People experience high levels of crime carried out by foreigners and naturally form a dislike of those responsible...

2.The progressives downplay the level of crime by foreigners as it gets in the way of their mass immigration agenda... and instead start to blame the locals for complaining about immigrant crime by calling them 'xenaphobic' or 'racist' etc...

3. Crimes by immigrants must be covered up so as to not give rise to 'xenaphobia' or 'racism'!!!







Crime is wrong and must be exposed and punished... but if the crime is done by a foreigner/Muslim/immigrant etc... then it must be hidden/covered up and anyone who talks about it must be wrong and subsequently demonised as a 'racist' or 'xenaphobe' etc!!!

Keep it coming Tommy, I luv reading the truth but a word of warning, DON'T SAY IT TOO OFTEN the leftiz will get you. lol

.

It was a great article Tommy very honest for once which we did not need you spitting of the thread and thus drowing us with spittle with your profanties.
She made some very honest concessions to the fact the left have been a mare with their apologies.

And she is right the last thing we need is for people like you to gain support

I for one have consistently acknowledged that you're going to get some bad people when you open your borders to refugees.

My position is that it's nonetheless the right thing to do.

It would be naive to think that you could take in millions of people and they'd all be angels, and I doubt anybody really thought otherwise.

Does anybody think that among the millions of Jews who fled the Holocaust, none of them were criminals, none of them committed crimes in countries that took them in?

Ben_Reilly wrote:I for one have consistently acknowledged that you're going to get some bad people when you open your borders to refugees.

My position is that it's nonetheless the right thing to do.

It would be naive to think that you could take in millions of people and they'd all be angels, and I doubt anybody really thought otherwise.

Does anybody think that among the millions of Jews who fled the Holocaust, none of them were criminals, none of them committed crimes in countries that took them in?

On your last question:
Were there more rapes, assaults, trouble?
Did Jews demand that places change to suit them?

Ben_Reilly wrote:I for one have consistently acknowledged that you're going to get some bad people when you open your borders to refugees.

My position is that it's nonetheless the right thing to do.

It would be naive to think that you could take in millions of people and they'd all be angels, and I doubt anybody really thought otherwise.

Does anybody think that among the millions of Jews who fled the Holocaust, none of them were criminals, none of them committed crimes in countries that took them in?

what is more to the point is.... were their crimes denied and attempted to be covered up by the authorities, were the victims implicitly blamed for the crimes commited against them and were then thus implied as anti semetic.?

was the attitude of the authorities to any such crimes ...tough have MORE of the same

I doubt it very much.

I know its wrong to blame the refugees for the constant crimes of the L/W (and lets face it this constant L/w attitude of the "poor criminal" is a victim too oh and bugger the victim...doesnt ONLY apply to this situation)
I said a GOOD while back that the left are responsible for the popularuty of the right, and bar far its best recruiter

it seems I'm being proven correct....

Ben_Reilly wrote:I for one have consistently acknowledged that you're going to get some bad people when you open your borders to refugees.

My position is that it's nonetheless the right thing to do.

It would be naive to think that you could take in millions of people and they'd all be angels, and I doubt anybody really thought otherwise.

Does anybody think that among the millions of Jews who fled the Holocaust, none of them were criminals, none of them committed crimes in countries that took them in?

Your position is one of the worst things to do, you wish to constantly deny the scale of the issue
That is what is a diaster and where you were confident over many actually being refugees is clearly not the case, just as I was also mistaken on this but can actually admit I was mistaken, so again the worrying part is you do not still recognise that
I more concerned at how naive you are to not understand the scale of this problem

Your last sentence was just about the most vilest thing you could even try to compare something off, where again before the war the US and British had restricted imigration to Jews and even worse to palestine, where lives could have actually been saved. That has to be the most poorest and disgusting thing you have ever said. To even compare Jewish victims of a holocaust to where there is global extremism to the tunes of ten of millions of supporters of ISIS to say  they are of equal fear to allowing them into a country shows how far removed from reality you are. The undenying fact is millions support rape, slavery, murder, etc by supporting ISIS, on top of this there is a cultural issue with some viewing women as property, to the point many its seems are not even refugees, which fundementally is going to later see restrictions to genuine refugees that need safety and you cannot not even see that. Where you place Jewish holocaust survivors that some maybe criminal as comparable to a fear and genuine threat of Islamic extremism

You should be disgusted with yourself for that comment to even dare to compare

Jews fled from nazi germany... from the immediate threat of being murdered by this evil ideology... an evil ideology that wanted to take control of other countries through war and conquest...

Islam promotes a very similar evil ideology... death to jews, war and conquest to achieve control of other countries...


Jews fled an evil ideology... eu politicians are now trying to import another evil ideology...

Jews had to leave also after the war because their homes in many cases where taken over by others in many countries even that ended up on the allied side. They had nothing to come back to. That is what is evenb worse to ben failing to grasp how poor his point was

Tommy Monk wrote:Jews fled from nazi germany... from the immediate threat of being murdered by this evil ideology... an evil ideology that wanted to take control of other countries through war and conquest...

Islam promotes a very similar evil ideology... death to jews, war and conquest to achieve control of other countries...


Jews fled an evil ideology... eu politicians are now trying to import another evil ideology...

Syrian refugees are also fleeing an evil ideology, which Didge himself has pointed out only has 21 percent support in Syria.

Now, how many Syrians responding to the poll thought there was a chance ISIS might find out what they said, if they criticized them?

You guys keep acting like what's happening in Europe regarding crimes committed by refugees dwarfs the humanitarian crisis being caused by ISIS in the Middle East. I can't believe you think that way, but I do wonder if it's a case of valuing European victims more highly than Middle Eastern victims.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Jews fled from nazi germany... from the immediate threat of being murdered by this evil ideology... an evil ideology that wanted to take control of other countries through war and conquest...

Islam promotes a very similar evil ideology... death to jews, war and conquest to achieve control of other countries...


Jews fled an evil ideology... eu politicians are now trying to import another evil ideology...

Syrian refugees are also fleeing an evil ideology, which Didge himself has pointed out only has 21 percent support in Syria.

Now, how many Syrians responding to the poll thought there was a chance ISIS might find out what they said, if they criticized them?

You guys keep acting like what's happening in Europe regarding crimes committed by refugees dwarfs the humanitarian crisis being caused by ISIS in the Middle East. I can't believe you think that way, but I do wonder if it's a case of valuing European victims more highly than Middle Eastern victims.

They could be syrian refugees polled, I could be wrong on what syrian refuygees, but still even if 20 percent in syria itseklf is worrying
Granted that many syrians are suffering, even more that 1 in 5 support ISIS
So millions of syrians are displaced and Ben only thinks about if the poll was biased because some might be forced to say yes to support them even though ISIS has only control over a proportion of them. Which would not then explain those not under their control and asked would it
You keep burying your head in the sand to a real genuine problem and even worse make excuses or offer deflections
That is what is troubling
What you fail to grasp is people themselves, as you with your utter blindness fail to see with every view you make poorly and defensively pushes people to the right.
Now both of us do not want to see the far right in power, accept, you are actually helping that happen.
I cannot believe you fail to see now that many people not even refugees has now changed views in europe that now refugges could be completely blocked from entering. That is the extent of your failing to understand here

I can't keep up with this leftie chop and change waffle...


One minute we are told that all the massive influx of illegal immigrants are Syrian refugees fleeing a direct danger to their lives... although they are coming from Turkey which is a safe country...


Then we are told that loads of these same previously claimed syrian refugees are committing high levels of crimes and sexual assaults and rapes against the local populations... only to then be told that they are not Syrian at all!!!




When the lefties are letting them in they are all Syrian refugees... when they are raping and robbing and committing numerous other crimes the lefties tell us they are not Syrian refugees!!!

So what do you people propose? Send them all back? How? In what vessels? Under what laws? With what force?

Christ, you people are good at complaining but not a whole lot else, huh?

Send them back the same way they arrived!!!


And if it wasn't for the stupidity of leftie thinking in the first place then we wouldn't have the problem!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Send them back the same way they arrived!!!


And if it wasn't for the stupidity of leftie thinking in the first place then we wouldn't have the problem!!!

OK, but given the current situation, exactly how do you send them back? At gunpoint? Whose? Again, how are you going to move all those people? Do you expect them all to go peacefully? If not, do you accept responsibility for their violence, as apparently Merkel must do now?

It's a bullshit full-of-holes pie-in-the-sky proposal, and you better never accuse me of being unrealistic again after this nonsense.

Vast majority are total economic migrants/illegal immigrants... even the so called "Syrian refugees" are coming from positions of being in a safe country of Turkey!!!


It's all a complete sham!!!



Stay in Turkey and carry on working or pay for a boat ride across to Greece/EU and then claim asylum and get given a house and loads of money every week to spend for fuck all...!!!


Ohhhh... Tough choice...!!!


And as long as we are stupid enough to carry on allowing such Piss takes... many more will turn up to take the Piss! !!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Vast majority are total economic migrants/illegal immigrants... even the so called "Syrian refugees" are coming from positions of being in a safe country of Turkey!!!


It's all a complete sham!!!



Stay in Turkey and carry on working or pay for a boat ride across to Greece/EU and then claim asylum and get given a house and loads of money every week to spend for fuck all...!!!


Ohhhh... Tough choice...!!!


And as long as we are stupid enough to carry on allowing such Piss takes... many more will turn up to take the Piss! !!!

So WHAT SHOULD THE EU DO about it?

Exist in the real world for once.

The EU should have done what it was meant to do in the first place protect the citizens of the EU, of which they failed to do by opening the dooors and not checking people entering, which its now clear many people not refugees got in off the backl of the refugee crises.
You aske whagt should be done, those who clearly are not refugees, should be deported, any who commit any criminality are deported

End of story

Didge wrote:The EU should have done what it was meant to do in the first place protect the citizens of the EU, of which they failed to do by opening the dooors and not checking people entering, which its now clear many people not refugees got in off the backl of the refugee crises.
You aske whagt should be done, those who clearly are not refugees, should be deported, any who commit any criminality are deported

End of story

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

Or as we say in Texas -- wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which one fills up faster.

Yeah thanks for that irrelevant post which you wanted an answer I gave you one.

Didge wrote:Yeah thanks for that irrelevant post which you wanted an answer I gave you one.

I was asking what should be done now, and how to do it -- not for rearview-mirror BS.

Like I said, wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which fills up faster. You think a mistake was made -- how do you address it?

Otherwise you're just complaining. Which I know is a national passion in the UK, but it doesn't really do anything, does it?

I told you what needs to be done, they need to round up all these people and throughly check them and if migrants kick them out of the country on the first plane back to where they came from. Becuase fundementally they have lied claiming asylum, when they are just migrants, which got in off the back of the Syrian crisis.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Jews fled from nazi germany... from the immediate threat of being murdered by this evil ideology... an evil ideology that wanted to take control of other countries through war and conquest...

Islam promotes a very similar evil ideology... death to jews, war and conquest to achieve control of other countries...


Jews fled an evil ideology... eu politicians are now trying to import another evil ideology...

Syrian refugees are also fleeing an evil ideology, which Didge himself has pointed out only has 21 percent support in Syria.

Now, how many Syrians responding to the poll thought there was a chance ISIS might find out what they said, if they criticized them?

You guys keep acting like what's happening in Europe regarding crimes committed by refugees dwarfs the humanitarian crisis being caused by ISIS in the Middle East. I can't believe you think that way, but I do wonder if it's a case of valuing European victims more highly than Middle Eastern victims.

They're not necessarily fleeing from ISIS. They could be fleeing from the bombing, or from the rebel groups, and there could well be a high percentage of ISIS supporters amongst them.

Re your last point, you're once again implying that the European victims of these recent crimes are merely collateral damage. Are you so nonchalant about collateral damage to Syrians caused by US bombing?

Are you seriously suggesting that countries should prioritise non-citizens over their own citizens?

Didge wrote:I told you what needs to be done, they need to round up all these people and throughly check them and if migrants kick them out of the country on the first plane back to where they came from. Becuase fundementally they have lied claiming asylum, when they are just migrants, which got in off the back of the Syrian crisis.

First of all, who needs to round them up? Should it be the German army?

Second of all, who does the checking? How many German civil servants do you divert to that task?

Who supplies and pays for the planes?

Who verifies where they came from and makes sure they go back there?

Who does the work to determine who's a migrant and who's a refugee?

It's like when Trump says we're "gonna send all the illegals back where they came from."

How?!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Jews fled from nazi germany... from the immediate threat of being murdered by this evil ideology... an evil ideology that wanted to take control of other countries through war and conquest...

Islam promotes a very similar evil ideology... death to jews, war and conquest to achieve control of other countries...


Jews fled an evil ideology... eu politicians are now trying to import another evil ideology...

Syrian refugees are also fleeing an evil ideology, which Didge himself has pointed out only has 21 percent support in Syria.

Now, how many Syrians responding to the poll thought there was a chance ISIS might find out what they said, if they criticized them?

You guys keep acting like what's happening in Europe regarding crimes committed by refugees dwarfs the humanitarian crisis being caused by ISIS in the Middle East. I can't believe you think that way, but I do wonder if it's a case of valuing European victims more highly than Middle Eastern victims.

They're not necessarily fleeing from ISIS. They could be fleeing from the bombing, or from the rebel groups, and there could well be a high percentage of ISIS supporters amongst them.

Re your last point, you're once again implying that the European victims of these recent crimes are merely collateral damage. Are you so nonchalant about collateral damage to Syrians caused by US bombing?

I'm not casual about either the European or Syrian victims. I'm weighing evils here. I really hoped you all would have realized that, from everything I've said.

The other thing I'm getting from these discussions is that some people seem to think it's a case of innocent refugees versus illegal immigrants/potential criminals/ISIS. Being a refugee doesn't mean someone is not capable of committing a crime or being an ISIS supporter.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:I told you what needs to be done, they need to round up all these people and throughly check them and if migrants kick them out of the country on the first plane back to where they came from. Becuase fundementally they have lied claiming asylum, when they are just migrants, which got in off the back of the Syrian crisis.

First of all, who needs to round them up? Should it be the German army?

Second of all, who does the checking? How many German civil servants do you divert to that task?

Who supplies and pays for the planes?

Who verifies where they came from and makes sure they go back there?

Who does the work to determine who's a migrant and who's a refugee?

It's like when Trump says we're "gonna send all the illegals back where they came from."

How?!

If necessary yes, involve the Germany army to assist the Police, because the protectiopn of the german citizens must come first. If people are genuine asylum seekers they will want this also that then the people who came in off the back of the crisis who were not asylumn seekers are removed it will stop any further hatred being directed at them.
Germany is going to have to pay up to remove them, they let them in they then have to remove those who are clearly not geuine asylum seekers. You see you fail to see this will actually help prevent hate being directed at the geuine asylum seekers.

Raggamuffin wrote:The other thing I'm getting from these discussions is that some people seem to think it's a case of innocent refugees versus illegal immigrants/potential criminals/ISIS. Being a refugee doesn't mean someone is not capable of committing a crime or being an ISIS supporter.

Complexity -- ain't it great?

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:I told you what needs to be done, they need to round up all these people and throughly check them and if migrants kick them out of the country on the first plane back to where they came from. Becuase fundementally they have lied claiming asylum, when they are just migrants, which got in off the back of the Syrian crisis.

First of all, who needs to round them up? Should it be the German army?

Second of all, who does the checking? How many German civil servants do you divert to that task?

Who supplies and pays for the planes?

Who verifies where they came from and makes sure they go back there?

Who does the work to determine who's a migrant and who's a refugee?

It's like when Trump says we're "gonna send all the illegals back where they came from."

How?!

If necessary yes, involve the Germany army to assist the Police, because the protectiopn of the german citizens must come first. If people are genuine asylum seekers they will want this also that then the people who came in off the back of the crisis who were not asylumn seekers are removed it will stop any further hatred being directed at them.
Germany is going to have to pay up to remove them, they let them in they then have to remove those who are clearly not geuine asylum seekers. You see you fail to see this will actually help prevent hate being directed at the geuine asylum seekers.

OK, go tell Merkel and tell me what she said.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


If necessary yes, involve the Germany army to assist the Police, because the protectiopn of the german citizens must come first. If people are genuine asylum seekers they will want this also that then the people who came in off the back of the crisis who were not asylumn seekers are removed it will stop any further hatred being directed at them.
Germany is going to have to pay up to remove them, they let them in they then have to remove those who are clearly not geuine asylum seekers. You see you fail to see this will actually help prevent hate being directed at the geuine asylum seekers.

OK, go tell Merkel and tell me what she said.

No problem

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


If necessary yes, involve the Germany army to assist the Police, because the protectiopn of the german citizens must come first. If people are genuine asylum seekers they will want this also that then the people who came in off the back of the crisis who were not asylumn seekers are removed it will stop any further hatred being directed at them.
Germany is going to have to pay up to remove them, they let them in they then have to remove those who are clearly not geuine asylum seekers. You see you fail to see this will actually help prevent hate being directed at the geuine asylum seekers.

OK, go tell Merkel and tell me what she said.

No problem

It's all so simple in your mind, isn't it? Pity reality isn't the same way.

It is that simple just to act, the problem is no action is being taken

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

They're not necessarily fleeing from ISIS. They could be fleeing from the bombing, or from the rebel groups, and there could well be a high percentage of ISIS supporters amongst them.

Re your last point, you're once again implying that the European victims of these recent crimes are merely collateral damage. Are you so nonchalant about collateral damage to Syrians caused by US bombing?

I'm not casual about either the European or Syrian victims. I'm weighing evils here. I really hoped you all would have realized that, from everything I've said.

Governments have to be seen to be prioritising their own citizens though. The world is organised into different countries because that's what people want. If they don't get protection from the country they're a citizen of, they will question what the point of being a citizen is, and more importantly, they will question why they're paying taxes to a Government which treats them as second best and "collateral damage".

To be honest, it's not a UK problem at the moment, but it is a problem for the EU, and of course we are a member of that. If Merkel is seen to be the person who caused a lot of the problems, that will have serious consequences for the EU. We're seeing a number of countries rebelling against the generosity she offered on their behalf already, and if she doesn't take responsibility and do something, that will only get worse.

Raggamuffin wrote:To be honest, it's not a UK problem at the moment, but it is a problem for the EU, and of course we are a member of that. If Merkel is seen to be the person who caused a lot of the problems, that will have serious consequences for the EU. We're seeing a number of countries rebelling against the generosity she offered on their behalf already, and if she doesn't take responsibility and do something, that will only get worse.

I recognize you're trying to be reasonable and I really do respect that, being an American who doesn't love Donald Trump.

The solutions to problems come from reasonable people whether they agree or disagree. My favorite Republicans don't agree with me, but you can tell they are dealing from reason.

I do hope the EU and the refugees come to a position that is reasonable, kind and merciful. Kindness and mercy are, to me, the most important ideals that often get shunted to the side.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:To be honest, it's not a UK problem at the moment, but it is a problem for the EU, and of course we are a member of that. If Merkel is seen to be the person who caused a lot of the problems, that will have serious consequences for the EU. We're seeing a number of countries rebelling against the generosity she offered on their behalf already, and if she doesn't take responsibility and do something, that will only get worse.

I recognize you're trying to be reasonable and I really do respect that, being an American who doesn't love Donald Trump.

The solutions to problems come from reasonable people whether they agree or disagree. My favorite Republicans don't agree with me, but you can tell they are dealing from reason.

I do hope the EU and the refugees come to a position that is reasonable, kind and merciful. Kindness and mercy are, to me, the most important ideals that often get shunted to the side.

The trouble is that it all happened so fast, and Merkel thought she was doing the right thing at the time. The problem is that she didn't think about the impact on other countries which refugees would have to travel through to get to Germany, or the impact of such large numbers arriving all at once - making it virtually impossible to vet them all at the time. Instead of berating those countries for not helping her out, and putting their backs up, she needs to accept her own responsibility for the problems which have been encountered.

It should be remembered that the EU is made up of separate countries, all with their own ideas of what's reasonable and what isn't, and they don't necessarily all have the same cultural values.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:To be honest, it's not a UK problem at the moment, but it is a problem for the EU, and of course we are a member of that. If Merkel is seen to be the person who caused a lot of the problems, that will have serious consequences for the EU. We're seeing a number of countries rebelling against the generosity she offered on their behalf already, and if she doesn't take responsibility and do something, that will only get worse.

I recognize you're trying to be reasonable and I really do respect that, being an American who doesn't love Donald Trump.

The solutions to problems come from reasonable people whether they agree or disagree. My favorite Republicans don't agree with me, but you can tell they are dealing from reason.

I do hope the EU and the refugees come to a position that is reasonable, kind and merciful. Kindness and mercy are, to me, the most important ideals that often get shunted to the side.

The trouble is that it all happened so fast, and Merkel thought she was doing the right thing at the time. The problem is that she didn't think about the impact on other countries which refugees would have to travel through to get to Germany, or the impact of such large numbers arriving all at once - making it virtually impossible to vet them all at the time. Instead of berating those countries for not helping her out, and putting their backs up, she needs to accept her own responsibility for the problems which have been encountered.

It should be remembered that the EU is made up of separate countries, all with their own ideas of what's reasonable and what isn't, and they don't necessarily all have the same cultural values.

I realize that, and I realize I'm far away. But to me, helping desperate people was, is and will always be the right thing to do, and criminals are criminals who should be dealt with as we do. I think the risk taken was an act of kindness, the crimes that have resulted tragic, the world as complicated as always, but that kindness, mercy and justice will win out in the long run.

You just can't watch while a group like ISIS does what it thinks it has to do to peaceful people, to families and children -- you have to extend that faithful arm of kindness, even if it does mean you invite some trouble with it.

And despite what has happened, I still consider Merkel a kind and compassionate person for doing what she did. If it turns out to be a mistake, so be it, but it was done in the spirit of having faith in the goodness of people, and it would break my heart to think that wasn't warranted.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The trouble is that it all happened so fast, and Merkel thought she was doing the right thing at the time. The problem is that she didn't think about the impact on other countries which refugees would have to travel through to get to Germany, or the impact of such large numbers arriving all at once - making it virtually impossible to vet them all at the time. Instead of berating those countries for not helping her out, and putting their backs up, she needs to accept her own responsibility for the problems which have been encountered.

It should be remembered that the EU is made up of separate countries, all with their own ideas of what's reasonable and what isn't, and they don't necessarily all have the same cultural values.

I realize that, and I realize I'm far away. But to me, helping desperate people was, is and will always be the right thing to do, and criminals are criminals who should be dealt with as we do. I think the risk taken was an act of kindness, the crimes that have resulted tragic, the world as complicated as always, but that kindness, mercy and justice will win out in the long run.

You just can't watch while a group like ISIS does what it thinks it has to do to peaceful people, to families and children -- you have to extend that faithful arm of kindness, even if it does mean you invite some trouble with it.

And despite what has happened, I still consider Merkel a kind and compassionate person for doing what she did. If it turns out to be a mistake, so be it, but it was done in the spirit of having faith in the goodness of people, and it would break my heart to think that wasn't warranted.

This is why Merkel now has to clamp down hard on offenders amongst the refugees. She got a lot of support for her open-door policy, but if she doesn't want that to fade, she needs to tell the German people that she won't allow that generosity to harm them in any way. There's an added problem in the perception that the current wave of problems is not just some random people being criminals, and that it's to do with their culture.

If she lectures other countries on their perceived lack of generosity, they will simply tell her - well look what's happening in your own country - and say they're right to be more cautious.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The trouble is that it all happened so fast, and Merkel thought she was doing the right thing at the time. The problem is that she didn't think about the impact on other countries which refugees would have to travel through to get to Germany, or the impact of such large numbers arriving all at once - making it virtually impossible to vet them all at the time. Instead of berating those countries for not helping her out, and putting their backs up, she needs to accept her own responsibility for the problems which have been encountered.

It should be remembered that the EU is made up of separate countries, all with their own ideas of what's reasonable and what isn't, and they don't necessarily all have the same cultural values.

I realize that, and I realize I'm far away. But to me, helping desperate people was, is and will always be the right thing to do, and criminals are criminals who should be dealt with as we do. I think the risk taken was an act of kindness, the crimes that have resulted tragic, the world as complicated as always, but that kindness, mercy and justice will win out in the long run.

You just can't watch while a group like ISIS does what it thinks it has to do to peaceful people, to families and children -- you have to extend that faithful arm of kindness, even if it does mean you invite some trouble with it.

And despite what has happened, I still consider Merkel a kind and compassionate person for doing what she did. If it turns out to be a mistake, so be it, but it was done in the spirit of having faith in the goodness of people, and it would break my heart to think that wasn't warranted.

This is why Merkel now has to clamp down hard on offenders amongst the refugees. She got a lot of support for her open-door policy, but if she doesn't want that to fade, she needs to tell the German people that she won't allow that generosity to harm them in any way. There's an added problem in the perception that the current wave of problems is not just some random people being criminals, and that it's to do with their culture.

If she lectures other countries on their perceived lack of generosity, they will simply tell her - well look what's happening in your own country - and say they're right to be more cautious.

Can't argue. I'd just ask people to look more closely at ISIS's atrocities -- most anybody would run from that.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

This is why Merkel now has to clamp down hard on offenders amongst the refugees. She got a lot of support for her open-door policy, but if she doesn't want that to fade, she needs to tell the German people that she won't allow that generosity to harm them in any way. There's an added problem in the perception that the current wave of problems is not just some random people being criminals, and that it's to do with their culture.

If she lectures other countries on their perceived lack of generosity, they will simply tell her - well look what's happening in your own country - and say they're right to be more cautious.

Can't argue. I'd just ask people to look more closely at ISIS's atrocities -- most anybody would run from that.

As I said, you don't know what they're running from. Others might claim that they're running from Assad and/or the bombing by other countries.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

This is why Merkel now has to clamp down hard on offenders amongst the refugees. She got a lot of support for her open-door policy, but if she doesn't want that to fade, she needs to tell the German people that she won't allow that generosity to harm them in any way. There's an added problem in the perception that the current wave of problems is not just some random people being criminals, and that it's to do with their culture.

If she lectures other countries on their perceived lack of generosity, they will simply tell her - well look what's happening in your own country - and say they're right to be more cautious.

Can't argue. I'd just ask people to look more closely at ISIS's atrocities -- most anybody would run from that.

As I said, you don't know what they're running from. Others might claim that they're running from Assad and/or the bombing by other countries.

Whatever it is, it's hell on Earth.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:Yeah thanks for that irrelevant post which you wanted an answer I gave you one.

I was asking what should be done now, and how to do it -- not for rearview-mirror BS.

Like I said, wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which fills up faster. You think a mistake was made -- how do you address it?

Otherwise you're just complaining. Which I know is a national passion in the UK, but it doesn't really do anything, does it?

How would YOU solve it?

How to stop forunuz entering our island, simple.

We are an island.

Confiscate any aircraft, ship, train or whatever mode of transport the illegals are using to get here and fine the owners.
Anyone coming here must have the appropriate paperwork for our British government.

Board ships at sea and turn them back if illegals are aboard.

If anyone manages to get through the net and lands here illegally they must be taken to their respective Embassies to let them deal with the problem.

Put the onus back from whence they came

Being Mr. Niceguy does not work.

FGS do something.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Vast majority are total economic migrants/illegal immigrants... even the so called "Syrian refugees" are coming from positions of being in a safe country of Turkey!!!


It's all a complete sham!!!



Stay in Turkey and carry on working or pay for a boat ride across to Greece/EU and then claim asylum and get given a house and loads of money every week to spend for fuck all...!!!


Ohhhh... Tough choice...!!!


And as long as we are stupid enough to carry on allowing such Piss takes... many more will turn up to take the Piss! !!!

So WHAT SHOULD THE EU DO about it?

Exist in the real world for once.

Patrol the coastlines of places they are coming from... stop any boats and tow them back to where they came from then force the people back onto land then seize the boats... keep repeating the process...


Remove all the African arrivals back to their home continent to the african union... remove all middle eastern arrivals to the arab league to deal with... remove all the pakistanis and bangladeshis back to their home counyries to deal with... keep repeating!!!