Yale believes a course about Western culture is too Western

by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yale University is abandoning one of its core courses, a comprehensive survey of 700+ years of Western art. It has been deemed too Western, white, and male – and now the art canon gets thrown under the woke bus.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/479975-yale-european-art-course/

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The vast majority of course content would be of western European thinking and innovation... Which is why there is also a focus on western European art...

And majority of this would be renaissance onwards.

Nonsense. You are describing a backwater, Arkansas Jr. College, not a world class learning and research institution.

Yale University is one of the eight schools that make up our Ivy League. Sister institutions include Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown University, Columbia, Princeton, University of Pennsylvania and Cornell University. Yale would not be able to keep such company if it limited itself to your kind of parochialism.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:25 pm

That would be irrelevant to the everything else they would be studying.

But I'm sure there are courses out there for the study of African art etc...

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

That is just guff...

Maybe you could list the courses, and tell us which ones aren't based on western European thinking and innovation...?

Probably over half the courses. Take a look...I provided you with their web page.

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:43 am

Cop out...

by Original Quill Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Cop out...

Nonsense. You asked, and I provided you the means to find the answer. Perhaps your question was a "cop out". Yale believes a course about Western culture is too Western - Page 2 2190311264

Yale believes a course about Western culture is too Western - Page 2 2190311264

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:52 pm

You made the claim that over half the courses (aren't based on western European thinking and innovation)...

So... Tell us what they are...!?

by 'Wolfie Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:31 am

Once again, Tommy exposes his own total lack of any knowledge whatsover of how universities operate, and what they actually research and teach...

Not a good look for a self-declared "genius"..

What with his I.Q. of 147,637,534,654,277.456 !

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:26 pm

Not at all...

Notice that quill still hasn't answered the question...!?

I wonder why...!?

lol!

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:53 pm

'Wolfie wrote:

Once again, Tommy exposes his own total lack of any knowledge whatsover of how universities operate, and what they actually research and teach...

Not a good look for a self-declared "genius"..

What with his I.Q. of 147,637,534,654,277.456 !

Tommy, it is evident, has never seen the inside of a university.

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:03 pm

Still no answer ..

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Not at all...

Notice that quill still hasn't answered the question...!?

I wonder why...!?

Tommy, I never stray too far from the point. You, however, are on some loose tangent that goes nowhere.

The issue here is why Yale University widened its core course in art, from a parochial view to a world view. The question comes up because you resent seeing your white, western, privileged perspective altered to a more inclusive multi-cultural perspective.

Now, return to subject, and explain why the privileged view is to be preferred...if you can.

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:42 pm

I've already made my point that all the other courses (science, technology, medicine, literature, music etc) are of western European thinking and innovation... So it would follow that an understanding of the thinking behind these things could be aided by looking at the art too.

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:43 pm

Now can you answer my question?

Which courses there are not rooted in western European thinking?

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Now can you answer my question?

Which courses there are not rooted in western European thinking?

I have answered your question. Now do the work. And I'm not going to contribute to frivolous meandering from the topic.

I take it you have no justification for your white (western) supremacist view of what is best for Yale University students. Case closed. Cool

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:12 pm

It seems that Yale themselves felt that the study of western European art was important for many years... And only changed it now because of bowing to some politically correct guff...

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:39 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

It seems that Yale themselves felt that the study of western European art was important for many years... And only changed it now because of bowing to some politically correct guff...

And we, as a country, once sanctioned slavery. Times change, tommy, and with them change the mores of society. To be a world class institution of education, you have got to have the whole world as your scope of study.

I have mentioned, in another thread, that Yale University is one of the most conservative institutions in the entire Americas. So, it is no wonder that they were slow to recognize the changing of times. This issue arises because the previous curricula of Yale was so out-of-touch with the rest of the world, that they distinguished themselves.

The real anomaly is that it took them so long. You should be asking why they didn't change these things in the 1960's, when every other institution of higher learning made these adjustments.

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:10 pm

Yes... of course... because the renaissance wasn't just something that happened in western Europe, was it...!?

So a top course in medicine should also include the study of African witchdoctors methods... and a top course in classical music should also include the playing of the vuvuzela and my grandad playing the spoons...!!!

And maybe even this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N0caSdOgTgk

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Yes... of course... because the renaissance wasn't just something that happened in western Europe, was it...!?

So a top course in medicine should also include the study of African witchdoctors methods... and a top course in classical music should also include the playing of the vuvuzela and my grandad playing the spoons...!!!

And maybe even this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N0caSdOgTgk

Medicine is an empirical science. If there is something empirical to be learned from Ibo/Tutsis/Hutu/Twa/Kenyan and other African medicine, by all means, study it. We learned a great deal from study of Asian medicines.

But the study of African philosophies and anthropology might also prove important. They should be studied in their own right, as cultural lore.

The point I keep making, tom, is that you are whining about the loss of white privilege when you argue for a special place for western culture. There is nothing to recommend western civilization above other cultures, and indeed you may miss a lot that can be gleaned from those other cultures. You are just on the wrong side of the road.

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Now can you answer my question?

Which courses there are not rooted in western European thinking?

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Now can you answer my question?

Which courses there are not rooted in western European thinking?

Follow the yellow brick road. Wink

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:56 pm

You haven't got the heart to carry on because you haven't got the brain to explain so you resort to the childishness of Dorothy...

lol!

by Original Quill Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:07 pm

"Childishness of Dorothy...?" Tom, you're so clever. Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:51 am

Still no answer...

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Yes... you haven't got the courage, the heart or the brain (just like the lion the tin man and the scarecrow didn't have) to carry on here... So you resort to the one thing Dorothy did have, childishness...

by Original Quill Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Yes... you haven't got the courage, the heart or the brain (just like the lion the tin man and the scarecrow didn't have) to carry on here... So you resort to the one thing Dorothy did have, childishness...

Quoting Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is sooo appropriate for you, tommy. Twisted Evil

It was a children's fantasy novel, you know, written in 1900.

No matter how much you lie, I have answered your silly query...regardless of how peripheral it is. Which highlights how you are playing gotcha, and avoiding the topic. There are many ways of avoiding the simple truth. One of them is to argue and dither with examples, and skirt the central point.

One can see why you would want to avoid the real point. By arguing that Yale University should retain its parochial Western Art History class, you are arguing for the retention of privilege of the already-privileged class. In an age of why not equality for all?, it becomes difficult to justify white privilege. In that context, the question becomes: why are you against a more inclusive review of the history of art?

Is it your insecurity? Are you feeling unsure about your European bias? OMG...are you afraid that other cultures might--god forbid!--have a superior, more elevated artistic culture than yours? I can think of no other reason why you would be so pro-censorship about other cultures.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:07 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Now can you answer my question?

Which courses there are not rooted in western European thinking?

by Original Quill Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:47 pm

Why are you so protective of the privileged?

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:15 pm

So Tommy, you're arguing that the majority of what is studied at university comes from Western European thought.

Are you including al-jabr? (Sorry, you probably know that as "algebra.")

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:39 pm

The history of algebra goes back nearly 4000 years...

But the Greeks and Romans were doing it long before the example you give above...

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The history of algebra goes back nearly 4000 years...

But the Greeks and Romans were doing it long before the example you give above...

As were the Egyptians, Chinese and Indians. But it became the modern discipline of algebra because of a Persian Muslim.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:09 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The history of algebra goes back nearly 4000 years...

But the Greeks and Romans were doing it long before the example you give above...

As were the Egyptians, Chinese and Indians. But it became the modern discipline of algebra because of a Persian Muslim.

No... He just wrote a book about it at that time... Which was a very long time after others had been doing it...

And it carries on evolving long after this too .. into what we have now as the modern form of algebra.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Yes... you haven't got the courage, the heart or the brain (just like the lion the tin man and the scarecrow didn't have) to carry on here... So you resort to the one thing Dorothy did have, childishness...

Quoting Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is sooo appropriate for you, tommy. It was a children's fantasy novel, you know, written in 1900.

No matter how much you lie, I have answered your silly query...regardless of how peripheral it is. Which highlights how you are playing gotcha, and avoiding the topic. There are many ways of avoiding the simple truth. One of them is to argue and dither with examples, and skirt the central point.

One can see why you would want to avoid the real point. By arguing that Yale University should retain its parochial Western Art History class, you are arguing for the retention of privilege of the already-privileged class. In an age of why not equality for all?, it becomes difficult to justify white privilege. In that context, the question becomes: why are you against a more inclusive review of the history of art?

Is it your insecurity? Are you feeling unsure about your European bias? OMG...are you afraid that other cultures might--god forbid!--have a superior, more elevated artistic culture than yours? I can think of no other reason why you would be so pro-censorship about other cultures.

It was you who started with the "follow the yellow brick road" nonsense...

Instead of just answering a simple question...

I will ask again...

Which courses there (at Yale) are not rooted in western European thinking?

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:01 pm

Tommy, fuck off with your white supremacist bullshit.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:14 pm

The truth doesn't stop being the truth... just because you don't like the sound of it...!

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The truth doesn't stop being the truth... just because you don't like the sound of it...!

Yeah, I agree, but you're not telling the truth.

by eddie Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:19 pm

Tommy, are you saying that no other culture has anything of worth that students should study?
Or am I reading this all wrong?

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:31 pm

eddie wrote:Tommy, are you saying that no other culture has anything of worth that students should study?
Or am I reading this all wrong?

No... I am saying that if a top university is offering a course in say, classical music, then that shouldn't be forced to include the playing of the vuvuzela, or drill music, or my grandad playing the spoons... Just so as to be bowing to some politically correct mumbo jumbo about 'diversity' and 'inclusiveness'...

by Ben Reilly Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:39 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:Tommy, are you saying that no other culture has anything of worth that students should study?
Or am I reading this all wrong?

No... I am saying that if a top university is offering a course in say, classical music, then that shouldn't be forced to include the playing of the vuvuzela, or drill music, or my grandad playing the spoons... Just so as to be bowing to some politically correct mumbo jumbo about 'diversity' and 'inclusiveness'...

That's not what you said before. You said only Western European culture has produced anything that is studied in university.

by Tommy Monk Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:54 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

No... I am saying that if a top university is offering a course in say, classical music, then that shouldn't be forced to include the playing of the vuvuzela, or drill music, or my grandad playing the spoons... Just so as to be bowing to some politically correct mumbo jumbo about 'diversity' and 'inclusiveness'...

That's not what you said before. You said only Western European culture has produced anything that is studied in university.

No... That is not what I said.

And I was talking about Yale... not all universities ..

by Original Quill Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

That's not what you said before. You said only Western European culture has produced anything that is studied in university.

No... That is not what I said.

And I was talking about Yale... not all universities ..

It's a self-fulfilling hypothesis. We learn from university what is important. We then pronounce what is important from what we learned. If Yale University was telling it's students that western civilization was the most important, those same students will--like you, tommy--parrot back that same thesis.

You break out of that myopic cycle by teaching other subjects and cultures, thereby broadening the students' education. That's what Yale University is doing.

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