If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

If I can see your future and know you are going to make a decision but do not tell you about it - you will continue to make that decision without any outside influence.

I still know what you were going to do but you were fully in control. You can't blame me for not telling you. That would mean taking your power to choose away.

That is irrelevant, the creation of your decisions has been determined in advance, being as it is claimed this deity sees and knows everything, thus it would be part of the creation upon everything, so you cease to have control over your actions, as God could also also steer people to these decisions by other events or actions, thus everything is predetermined and thus this would mean no free will

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:this is so amazing how do you win an argument with yourself, must say it's griping stuff..

i wonder which of him will remember the original claim was that they could disprove faith, i'm with didgerytwo...

I am still proving faith when based upon religions like yours can be disprove, Eilzel may not agree but faiths are based upon written man made myths. So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

Take your time

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


That is irrelevant, the creation of your decisions has been determined in advance, being as it is claimed this deity sees and knows everything, thus it would be part of the creation upon everything, so you cease to have control over your actions, as God could also also steer people to these decisions by other events or actions, thus everything is predetermined and thus this would mean no free will

Not irrelevant at all but very much on point.

God sees all (outside the bounds of space and time), God gives you the power (the will) to act, God even steers (or guides) through messengers (people or events) and your own common sense - but despite all this, God does not want to interfere with your choice - or there would be no purpose of judgement.

Handing over your ability to choose defeats the purpose of humanity.

As I've said, in Islam you have no free will. Will only belongs to God. You are not in control of your life - of when you're born or die, or temporarily incapacitated - but while you are capable (and you won't know for how long), you are judged on the intention of your actions - not the outcome.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Not irrelevant at all but very much on point.

God sees all (outside the bounds of space and time), God gives you the power (the will) to act, God even steers (or guides) through messengers (people or events) and your own common sense - but despite all this, God does not want to interfere with your choice - or there would be no purpose of judgement.

Handing over your ability to choose defeats the purpose of humanity.

As I've said, in Islam you have no free will. Will only belongs to God. You are not in control of your life - of when you're born or die, or temporarily incapacitated - but while you are capable (and you won't know for how long), you are judged on the intention of your actions - not the outcome.

I'm sorry then but I must ask. If a man falls in love with a man (as Allah intendeds) and they embark on a relationship- is this judged as a sin or not?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


That is irrelevant, the creation of your decisions has been determined in advance, being as it is claimed this deity sees and knows everything, thus it would be part of the creation upon everything, so you cease to have control over your actions, as God could also also steer people to these decisions by other events or actions, thus everything is predetermined and thus this would mean no free will

Not irrelevant at all but very much on point.

God sees all (outside the bounds of space and time), God gives you the power (the will) to act, God even steers (or guides) through messengers (people or events) and your own common sense - but despite all this, God does not want to interfere with your choice - or there would be no purpose of judgement.

Handing over your ability to choose defeats the purpose of humanity.

As I've said, in Islam you have no free will. Will only belongs to God. You are not in control of your life - of when you're born or die, or temporarily incapacitated - but while you are capable (and you won't know for how long), you are judged on the intention of your actions - not the outcome.

Eilzel wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:



I am still proving faith when based upon religions like yours can be disprove, Eilzel may not agree but faiths are based upon written man made myths. So what happens when a person turns away from faith, have they thus just proved their faith wrong?

Take your time

Sorry didge think we've crossed wires here. If by a person's internal feeling/faith- then no that cannot be disproven, that is purely their feelings. However I do agree that what a person has faith is (ie: the Bible) then yes that can be disproven.

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Like I said, disproving a religion (even Islam, in your mind, at least) does not disprove the notion of the creator of a universe.

FYI: nor does evolution. That's just a process, like photosynthesis. But that's another thread.

Not at all Zack, the belief is centered around works, if 3 of them are found to contradict and be seen as the work of men, then being as there is no proof of a deity, because I have shown conclusively the deity of that work, is the imagination of men, written by men. That means that deity of that work has been show to not exist. To argue against just a creator god and nothing else would thus be difficult. as there is little to test upon, we are though talking about claims to a deity from religious works, if that is flawed the whole concept is flawed

heavenly father wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I'm sorry then but I must ask. If a man falls in love with a man (as Allah intendeds) and they embark on a relationship- is this judged as a sin or not?

by sharia law they should be hung, so what do you think the answer is.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Not at all Zack, the belief is centered around works, if 3 of them are found to contradict and be seen as the work of men, then being as there is no proof of a deity, because I have shown conclusively the deity of that work, is the imagination of men, written by men. That means that deity of that work has been show to not exist. To argue against just a creator god and nothing else would thus be difficult. as there is little to test upon, we are though talking about claims to a deity from religious works, if that is flawed the whole concept is flawed

Yeah but it still doesn't disprove God. At best, it strengthens your hypothesis.

In your hypothesis, you will have to address the question which man first introduced God.

Eilzel wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

by sharia law they should be hung, so what do you think the answer is.

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Not irrelevant at all but very much on point.

God sees all (outside the bounds of space and time), God gives you the power (the will) to act, God even steers (or guides) through messengers (people or events) and your own common sense - but despite all this, God does not want to interfere with your choice - or there would be no purpose of judgement.

Handing over your ability to choose defeats the purpose of humanity.

As I've said, in Islam you have no free will. Will only belongs to God. You are not in control of your life - of when you're born or die, or temporarily incapacitated - but while you are capable (and you won't know for how long), you are judged on the intention of your actions - not the outcome.

Sorry Zack, your view is based upon an interpretation you have of a deity through written works, of which again if this did exist none could speck for his actions or deeds, being as his would be thus then God. The reality is to look at this logically, which you are not doing and why I think the belief found in the 3 Abraham faiths contradicts, because it does defeat the purpose of humanity, a my point indeed, because this deity can see all what is going to come to pass, thus this is then planned.
Say lets look at this from the Christian view point, of Jesus himself, he knows what is going to happen to him, but does not change this, being as it is predetermined, why?

Eilzel wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

by sharia law they should be hung, so what do you think the answer is.

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Sorry Zack, your view is based upon an interpretation you have of a deity through written works, of which again if this did exist none could speck for his actions or deeds, being as his would be thus then God. The reality is to look at this logically, which you are not doing and why I think the belief found in the 3 Abraham faiths contradicts, because it does defeat the purpose of humanity, a my point indeed, because this deity can see all what is going to come to pass, thus this is then planned.
Say lets look at this from the Christian view point, of Jesus himself, he knows what is going to happen to him, but does not change this, being as it is predetermined, why?

I haven't used any intpretation, this is simple philosophy.

Telling you what will happen in the future takes away your power to make an honest choice.

It's really that simple. That fact you think this is 'irrelevant' is quite telling.

Eilzel wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

by sharia law they should be hung, so what do you think the answer is.

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

Maine coon lover wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

pointless reply there les, you don't need to be a moslem to know that shariah law will hang homosexuals , i think you knew this though that's why you had to insult HF , why not just accept his reply as this is a debate and yeah you were directing at zack but don't pretend you didn't know the answer lol

Eilzel wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

by sharia law they should be hung, so what do you think the answer is.

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

PhilDidge wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

pointless reply there les, you don't need to be a moslem to know that shariah law will hang homosexuals , i think you knew this though that's why you had to insult HF , why not just accept his reply as this is a debate and yeah you were directing at zack but don't pretend you didn't know the answer lol

if they hang gays by sharia law it shows that islam will hang gays, you haave to wonder why the others see it differetly.


That means sharia law is an interpretation of laws based upon religious works, some agree and some do not agree, just like you follow born again views which differ to other Christian groups

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

if they hang gays by sharia law it shows that islam will hang gays, you haave to wonder why the others see it differetly.


That means sharia law is an interpretation of laws based upon religious works, some agree and some do not agree, just like you follow born again views which differ to other Christian groups

but the ones who agree hang gays, so who is to say which are right the gay hangers or not.. :D 

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I haven't used any intpretation, this is simple philosophy.

Telling you what will happen in the future takes away your power to make an honest choice.

It's really that simple. That fact you think this is 'irrelevant' is quite telling.

Man made philosophy, but would that be the philosophy of your God?

The point is here a good example, Jesus knows his future and has doubts but still does everything he has foreseen according to the scriptures, why?
Because it is predetermined his actions already, where even to be God himself his future is already known to him and thus does what he has already predetermined.
Thus all would be planned, you cannot have free will if what you decided to do is known in adavance

Maine coon lover wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Well I was asking Zack, who is the Muslim here. Amazing how I have discussed sexuality with Zack recently and it was a fascinating discussion we had (on flap). Whereas with you it's like debating a 13 year old simpleton- why is it you show your religion up in such a bad light; while Zack is a credit to his?

Fortunately I know many Christians who are wonderful people   

pointless reply there les, you don't need to be a moslem to know that shariah law will hang homosexuals , i think you knew this though that's why you had to insult HF , why not just accept his reply as this is a debate and yeah you were directing at zack but don't pretend you didn't know the answer lol

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

but the ones who agree hang gays, so who is to say which are right the gay hangers or not.. :D 

The same exact same would apply to your faith, being as it mirrors the Quran on punishment for homosexuality

PhilDidge wrote:I think my favorite in regards to the character of the biblical deity is to show Yahweh is sadistic and evil and the bible is clearly full of contradictions, is this one:

Satan and God one day are having a few pints down the Cloud Inn debating who is the most evil with God who is winning hands down over his flooding of the world. The discussion turns to Job, a wealthy and righteous man who is essentially perfect in God’s eyes. God points out Job’s good behavior to Satan, but Satan disagrees with him and says that Job would curse the name of God if all his possessions were taken away. The bet is on, and God permits Satan to do anything to Job as long as he doesn’t permanently harm him. Satan, who though we are led also to believe has been defeated in heaven and cast down to hell   leaves  the omnipresent Lord who has already kicked his arse in a fight with banishment to hell but I guess is let out for the occasional pint. God evidently stands back while the Satan torments Job by stealing his possessions, slaughtering his livestock, murdering his family, killing his workers, and afflicting him with diseases. Withstanding even the most tumultuous of misfortunes, Job remains loyal to God and doesn't curse him.

Buy hey God is right after all and allowed Job to lose everyone and everything, just so he could win a bet with Satan, even though God teaches people pride is a sin.  

Eilzel wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

pointless reply there les, you don't need to be a moslem to know that shariah law will hang homosexuals , i think you knew this though that's why you had to insult HF , why not just accept his reply as this is a debate and yeah you were directing at zack but don't pretend you didn't know the answer lol

How many countries have the death penalty for gay men Maine? Not many in fact- it is punishable yes but it was here too until just a matter of decades ago. Yes Iran does, and a handful of others but not many. I wasn't asking for the human punishment however which is where you have both failed to understand my question.

My question was theological- if God wills you to love another man, how can he judge you as sinful in death?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Man made philosophy, but would that be the philosophy of your God?

The point is here a good example, Jesus knows his future and has doubts but still does everything he has foreseen according to the scriptures, why?
Because it is predetermined his actions already, where even to be God himself his future is already known to him and thus does what he has already predetermined.
Thus all would be planned, you cannot have free will if what you decided to do is known in adavance

Hey, I ain't going to argue from a Christian point of view. As you know I don't think Jesus is/was a God or a son of God.  I understand your point if you think he was.

heavenly father wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

How many countries have the death penalty for gay men Maine? Not many in fact- it is punishable yes but it was here too until just a matter of decades ago. Yes Iran does, and a handful of others but not many. I wasn't asking for the human punishment however which is where you have both failed to understand my question.

My question was theological- if God wills you to love another man, how can he judge you as sinful in death?

simple God does not will you to love another man, it was never his way it was never his intention, it is a perversion of the norm.. :D 

Phoenix wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:I think my favorite in regards to the character of the biblical deity is to show Yahweh is sadistic and evil and the bible is clearly full of contradictions, is this one:

Satan and God one day are having a few pints down the Cloud Inn debating who is the most evil with God who is winning hands down over his flooding of the world. The discussion turns to Job, a wealthy and righteous man who is essentially perfect in God’s eyes. God points out Job’s good behavior to Satan, but Satan disagrees with him and says that Job would curse the name of God if all his possessions were taken away. The bet is on, and God permits Satan to do anything to Job as long as he doesn’t permanently harm him. Satan, who though we are led also to believe has been defeated in heaven and cast down to hell   leaves  the omnipresent Lord who has already kicked his arse in a fight with banishment to hell but I guess is let out for the occasional pint. God evidently stands back while the Satan torments Job by stealing his possessions, slaughtering his livestock, murdering his family, killing his workers, and afflicting him with diseases. Withstanding even the most tumultuous of misfortunes, Job remains loyal to God and doesn't curse him.

Buy hey God is right after all and allowed Job to lose everyone and everything, just so he could win a bet with Satan, even though God teaches people pride is a sin.  

Jobs ordeal last seconds in the scheme of thing he gets eternal thanks for his troubles not a bad deal really.

Isn't the lesson being taught that good overcomes evil not God overcomes Satan in a two bob bet.

Eilzel wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

simple God does not will you to love another man, it was never his way it was never his intention, it is a perversion of the norm.. :D 

Again I wasn't asking you- you aren't going to give an intelligent answer   

heavenly father wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Again I wasn't asking you- you aren't going to give an intelligent answer   

it is the true answer, God never made gays, it was never his intention and the bible shows that.. :D 

Eilzel wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

pointless reply there les, you don't need to be a moslem to know that shariah law will hang homosexuals , i think you knew this though that's why you had to insult HF , why not just accept his reply as this is a debate and yeah you were directing at zack but don't pretend you didn't know the answer lol

How many countries have the death penalty for gay men Maine? Not many in fact- it is punishable yes but it was here too until just a matter of decades ago. Yes Iran does, and a handful of others but not many. I wasn't asking for the human punishment however which is where you have both failed to understand my question.

My question was theological- if God wills you to love another man, how can he judge you as sinful in death?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

it is the true answer, God never made gays, it was never his intention and the bible shows that.. :D 

Is then attraction a choice?

Do you believe it is?

Can you control who you find attractive?

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Is then attraction a choice?

Do you believe it is?

Can you control who you find attractive?

look at the numbers for goodness sake, being gay is a perversion of what is normal that is quite clear.. :D 

nicko wrote:there is no god, period.

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Hey, I ain't going to argue from a Christian point of view. As you know I don't think Jesus is/was a God or a son of God.  I understand your point if you think he was.

lol good point, but I am arguing from the view point if as seen is believed as a God. Thus Jesus proves further this point by complying to all that has been seen and does not change it, thus being determined
Do you really have free will though as clearly there is a contradiction between the existence of free will and the idea of a god that has perfect knowledge of the future.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

look at the numbers for goodness sake, being gay is a perversion of what is normal that is quite clear.. :D 

You seem unable to answer direct questions, try again.


Is then attraction a choice?

Do you believe it is?

Can you control who you find attractive?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


lol good point, but I am arguing from the view point if as seen is believed as a God. Thus Jesus proves further this point by complying to all that has been seen and does not change it, thus being determined
Do you really have free will though as clearly there is a contradiction between the existence of free will and the idea of a god that has perfect knowledge of the future.

No wonder they're so many lapsed Catholics. If Jesus was a God then he would have perfect knowledge and the power to change it directly. That's why I'm not a Christian.

I don't believe YOU have free will. Just a limited ability to exercise choice.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

How many countries have the death penalty for gay men Maine? Not many in fact- it is punishable yes but it was here too until just a matter of decades ago. Yes Iran does, and a handful of others but not many. I wasn't asking for the human punishment however which is where you have both failed to understand my question.

My question was theological- if God wills you to love another man, how can he judge you as sinful in death?

God gives you the power to love. But you choose to love a person.

Let the debate about what is  love and and can we have choice begin.   

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


You seem unable to answer direct questions, try again.


Is then attraction a choice?

Do you believe it is?

Can you control who you find attractive?

Not to be pedantic but the question was about love, not attraction.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

God gives you the power to love. But you choose to love a person.

Let the debate about what is  love and and can we have choice begin.   

But it begins with attraction- now why would Allah allow a man to be attracted to a man, then punish him when he's dead for remaining loving and devoted to that man   

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

But it begins with attraction- now why would Allah allow a man to be attracted to a man, then punish him when he's dead for remaining loving and devoted to that man   

I'm not going to pretend to have an answer to that - as you know from our discussions on Flappy - if HF is right about being able to choose which gender you're attracted to, then he should be able to choose to be gay also.

As we've discussed, I don't feel I have a choice being heterosexual. So unless HF can choose to be gay, has no right to ask you to choose to be straight.

My/our only other avenue to explore the hypothesis of choice is science. Which (according to the other thread) between 30-40% is something you are born with (on a genetic level).

That leaves what happens in the uterus, early childhood, perhaps all the way to teenage/puberty. These questions are still unanswered.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I'm not going to pretend to have an answer to that - as you know from our discussions on Flappy - if HF is right about being able to choose which gender you're attracted to, then he should be able to choose to be gay also.

As we've discussed, I don't feel I have a choice being heterosexual. So unless HF can choose to be gay, has no right to ask you to choose to be straight.

My/our only other avenue to explore the hypothesis of choice is science. Which (according to the other thread) between 30-40% is something you are born with (on a genetic level).

That leaves what happens in the uterus, early childhood, perhaps all the way to teenage/puberty. These questions are still unanswered.

I'm afraid it is the as you say, lack of answers, on such questions (not just sexuality but a lot of things) that is one of the things that lead me to reject my own Protestant Christianity long ago- I am impressed so many continue to have faith when faced with unanswerable questions and contradictions within their own faith.

HF of course is just a wind up merchant   

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I'm afraid it is the as you say, lack of answers, on such questions (not just sexuality but a lot of things) that is one of the things that lead me to reject my own Protestant Christianity long ago- I am impressed so many continue to have faith when faced with unanswerable questions and contradictions within their own faith.

HF of course is just a wind up merchant   

The reason why I can continue to believe while not having all the answers is down to trust.

Take the legal system for example, if a witness is proven to be a liar then we are to disregard the remainder of their testimony. Even if the remainder is true.

Conversely, if you believe in a part of the testimony of an honest person, then you can believe in parts of the testimony that are materially unprovable.

Faith does not exist without trust.

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

No

Sassy has fabricated her accusations and then stupidly claimed to have proof
So she has but you have not, one moment
 ://?roflmao?/:  Dear me dig that hole faster smelly    

The difference is that I don't care who knows so long as you do
I know you are talking bull as usual knowing it was you

You know what you said
Yes we know what you said

I know what you said

 :D 

Yes I know what you said and the penny has not dropped for you either, am so anticipating your next answers is sad I have to wait until you do to also cream that also.

Good luck and catch you tomorrow

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

The idea is that you're tested in this world by what choices you make. It's religion 101 and I'm still surprised adults are asking the question.

Here's a mind twist for you. According to Islam, everything you do is by the will of God and God knows everything that you will do. But you will still be judged by your actions.

Bet you're really confused now.  :D 

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

But it begins with attraction- now why would Allah allow a man to be attracted to a man, then punish him when he's dead for remaining loving and devoted to that man   

I'm not going to pretend to have an answer to that - as you know from our discussions on Flappy - if HF is right about being able to choose which gender you're attracted to, then he should be able to choose to be gay also.

As we've discussed, I don't feel I have a choice being heterosexual. So unless HF can choose to be gay, has no right to ask you to choose to be straight.

My/our only other avenue to explore the hypothesis of choice is science. Which (according to the other thread) between 30-40% is something you are born with (on a genetic level).

That leaves what happens in the uterus, early childhood, perhaps all the way to teenage/puberty. These questions are still unanswered.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

The idea is that you're tested in this world by what choices you make. It's religion 101 and I'm still surprised adults are asking the question.

Here's a mind twist for you. According to Islam, everything you do is by the will of God and God knows everything that you will do. But you will still be judged by your actions.

Bet you're really confused now.  :D 

its not that confusing fuzzmuck

all you're doing is highlighting the lack of freewill in Islam and showing that Allah embodies the illogical and spiteful approach many people hate in god

according to you, if you commit adultery its allahs will and yet he judges you for carrying out his will

victorismyhero wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

its not that confusing fuzzmuck

all you're doing is highlighting the lack of freewill in Islam and showing that Allah embodies the illogical and spiteful approach many people hate in god

according to you, if you commit adultery its allahs will and yet he judges you for carrying out his will

and the christian belief is no different...

victorismyhero wrote:Stop being so bloody arrogant for once smelly and we mat have the beginnings of a decent debate here. At least I have the feeling that discussing it with you may elicit far more sensible and considered arguments than trying to argue with HF..

So, lets start with the basic

IS or is NOT the bible "the inerrant word of god"