If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

that is spot on

heavenly father wrote:all we have is theories, that's very interesting.... :D 

you make it sound like facts as usual...

heavenly father wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

that is spot on

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 

smelly_bandit wrote:sure pal

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 

smelly_bandit wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No i asked you first.

You dont want to answer because you know you are wrong dont you? Lol

im more than happy to answer but it makes things easier if its a two way conversation

i think from your previous experience of talking to me about Islam you're worried about what i have to offer

last time you spoke to me you ended up condemning your own faith and committing shirk

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

thank you, i'm sure the muslims don't like the facts though.. :D 

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 

veya_victaous wrote:http://www.ask.com/question/what-did-god-create-in-7-days

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090827024534AAzvIWC

First thing the monotheist god created was light, both Muslim and Christian, being the same god and all     

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

they go apeshit

its very amusing though when you ask them "who wrote the qur'an"

that question sends them off the edge because they cannot answer it. they claim it was allah and that's why it was divine, but the reality it was written into book form after muhhamd died without his supervision by a man

their little minds break apart as they try to piece it together  :D 

Oh do shut up!

I have answered this question in flap many times!

You just dont want to admit that you know nothing about Islam but only know whats taught on the anti islam sites you visit religiously.

Go and meet a muslim and learn from them!   

SEXY MAMA wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:http://www.ask.com/question/what-did-god-create-in-7-days

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090827024534AAzvIWC

First thing the monotheist god created was light, both Muslim and Christian, being the same god and all     

Its something us Muslims never deny.

heavenly father wrote:does the koran say allah created heaven and the earth first..?

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

There's a critical error in your film analogy. God made the film and the video player. But you make the content, as far as your actions are concerned.

What's so sadistic about that? Would you rather be forced or pre-programmed to act a certain way? Do you want to give away your ability to act independently? That's sounds like a prison or communism. Surely that is sadistic.

Sorry Zack there is no flaw in this analogy because this deity is the producer an director of the film and tells people exactly how to act, in other words as he is meant to have created you, he knows exactly how you will act, you have thus been designed that way, all the choices have been predetermined in advance, who you meet, who you interact with, what events will make you decide thus the choices he has already designed within you, because he knows what you will decide.

As Victor says, you cannot choose different to how this deity knows is going to happen, I never read that if it was a choice this deity sees variable outcomes for your choices, have you?
If not then everything is set in stone, if we are to take the view of the deity, you thus really have no choice, you are thus designed to act and choose which has already been designed for you.  

PhilDidge wrote:Zack I doubt you are going to convince Eilzel Victor or myself, because logic shows such a view you are claiming is not logical. Fair enough it is your faith and you believe that and I respect that, but it has no logic to it what so ever to now make a view on intent, when if all is known, that intent is already programmed into you.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:Zack I doubt you are going to convince Eilzel Victor or myself, because logic shows such a view you are claiming is not logical. Fair enough it is your faith and you believe that and I respect that, but it has no logic to it what so ever to now make a view on intent, when if all is known, that intent is already programmed into you.

What makes you think I'm trying to convince anyone? Unless you're trying to convince me. Hmmm!

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You will go the way your fate intended. Even. Physics has proved that using Einsteins equations.

I will say again: you are not judged on the outcome but your intention. You are in control of your intention. And if you didn't intend an action, you will not be judged - regardless of the outcome.

Just because I (or God) knows what you will intend in the future, does not take away your power to make that intention.

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz   

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:does the koran say allah created heaven and the earth first..?

no

it waffles on about a load of other shit first

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Dude, of course there's a difference between being forced to act and knowing how someone will act.

If you can't get that basic difference, then I can't help you. Not sure even God can help you.   

God has the advantage of being outside the bounds of time. You don't and have to follow the arrow of time. But at no point has anyone or thing taken your ability to choose how to act. Have they?

Zack nobody would have a concept to what God is, let alone your claim to being outside the bounds of time, you are playing up to a notion your faith claims to teach, again if the future is set in stone by this deity, all intents and actions are programmed into you, meaning many people are fucked from the start.

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Like I said to Victor, logic is meant to represent real life. You surely admit nobody is making a choice for you? So how is intent preprogrammed?

What you're saying is that just because God or Mystic Meg (is she still alive?) knows what my intentions will be and how I will act, it is their fault for how I acted. Does that really sound logical to you?

Anyway - tbc tomorrow.

Never said I am programmed because I do not believe in God, though the concept of an all knowing deity would make you programmed from the off. The part you miss is that this deity is meant to have created everything and that would include the whole expanse of time and existence, which means all is planned in advance.

Something so annoying when growing up, "why did she die?" "God has a plan" the answer to anything where religion cannot really answer awkward issues, knowing full well,  it shows the conception of a deity has flaws

Take care Zack and see you tomorrow

veya_victaous wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

@Zack
NOPE omniscient means he KNOWS Already it is not about telling your future, He KNOWS your choice (indeed he MADE your choice) before you even knew a choice existed.  That what it means by ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL GOD.

While the Koran is a better written text than the Bible it is still just a ridiculous. the idea of a monotheist deity that is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL is quite illogical.  

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Never said I am programmed because I do not believe in God, though the concept of an all knowing deity would make you programmed from the off. The part you miss is that this deity is meant to have created everything and that would include the whole expanse of time and existence, which means all is planned in advance.

Something so annoying when growing up, "why did she die?" "God has a plan" the answer to anything where religion cannot really answer awkward issues, knowing full well,  it shows the conception of a deity has flaws

Take care Zack and see you tomorrow

That's the problem - to take part in this discussion, you have to make one assumption: God exists.

Only then you can analyse what the God wants from his creation.

Eilzel wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:@Eilzel

I have no problem with believing there is 'something greater than ourselves', but IF someone is going to try and define it they better bloody well make sure it is right. So far none of the organised religions have done a good job... but they have all managed to promote corruption and paedophile. So, on Balance I propose to 'Ban the organising of Religion', let people believe whatever they want but do not let them preach it unless they can PROVE it is true.

Well I don't agree on there being something higher than ourselves, I think it unlikely. But as you will agree that is very much a personal belief we all come to different conclusions.

I'd agree on the rest however   

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz   

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

Lol! That's not a problem. That is how Islamic spirituality works.  God has perfect knowledge. His creation doesn't.

Imagine a party you are desperate to attend. There are 2 lists, one secret and the other depends on your intent/actions.

You have no idea if you're on the secret list - so you do good actions to get an invitation on the second list.

On judgement or party day, you will find that the secret list matches the other list exactly.

The ones who didn't want to attend the party were never on the secret list in the first place. God knew/knows who really wanted/s an invite.

veya_victaous wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Well I don't agree on there being something higher than ourselves, I think it unlikely. But as you will agree that is very much a personal belief we all come to different conclusions.

I'd agree on the rest however   

the Sun     Black holes       Gravity     Animus   
Plenty of examples

The sun is a good one, 'he' heats us, grows our food, defrosts our water, grants us light Yet he asks nothing in return.  Much nicer than the Christian god don't ya think ?    You can see him and everything I said about him is true, But I'm not sure if the sun has a gender   

heavenly father wrote:the bible is written wonderfully, with many buried treasures for people to find through study or the Holy Spirit guidance.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz   

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

Lol! That's not a problem. That is how Islamic spirituality works.  God has perfect knowledge. His creation doesn't.

Imagine a party you are desperate to attend. There are 2 lists, one secret and the other depends on your intent/actions.

You have no idea if you're on the secret list - so you do good actions to get an invitation on the second list.

On judgement or party day, you will find that the secret list matches the other list exactly.

The ones who didn't want to attend the party were never on the secret list in the first place. God knew/knows who really wanted/s an invite.

smelly_bandit wrote:So now didge is agreeing with me

On flap he argued against me

Get your own arguments sockpuppet

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:So now didge is agreeing with me

On flap he argued against me

Get your own arguments sockpuppet

WTF, how barmy, this view point is the same view point I have always had on all religions, how is it the same as you being as I am an atheist ?



DOH

Dear me, you really are scarping the barrels making up things as you go along and you copout of answering most things, hey ho

PhilDidge wrote:To me they are all man made works, if they had been written by women, no doubt religious conflicts would be a rarity.

As to authentic, to me it has little, just faith, by those who believe it is, just like the bible.

Hence why so many religious wars through time, due to faith

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


WTF, how barmy, this view point is the same view point I have always had on all religions, how is it the same as you being as I am an atheist ?



DOH

Dear me, you really are scarping the barrels making up things as you go along and you copout of answering most things, hey ho

you have claimed that so many times while defending islam.... :D 

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

What makes you think I'm trying to convince anyone? Unless you're trying to convince me. Hmmm!

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

you have claimed that so many times while defending islam.... :D 

If correcting false claims by you is now defending, we might as well do away with any learning books, being as all I all doing is two fold, one correcting false assumptions and two showing all 3 religions have good and bad, though you ignore or excuse the bad in yours, which again shows this is more about again getting your wires crossed


Thus if you condemn one of these faiths, then you need to condemn them all, there is no middle ground, accept as I say you excuse the murder of the innocents/first born of Eygpt

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:To me they are all man made works, if they had been written by women, no doubt religious conflicts would be a rarity.

As to authentic, to me it has little, just faith, by those who believe it is, just like the bible.

Hence why so many religious wars through time, due to faith

You don't really believe there wouldn't be an religious conflict of women were more in-charge?

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


If correcting false claims by you is now defending, we might as well do away with any learning books, being as all I all doing is two fold, one correcting false assumptions and two showing all 3 religions have good and bad, though you ignore or excuse the bad in yours, which again shows this is more about again getting your wires crossed


Thus if you condemn one of these faiths, then you need to condemn them all, there is no middle ground, accept as I say you excuse the murder of the innocents/first born of Eygpt

lol you correct false claims...ha ha ha..

your determination to defend islam has been noted... :D 

God of the bible is not the same as allah that is very obvious...

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

That's the problem - to take part in this discussion, you have to make one assumption: God exists.

Only then you can analyse what the God wants from his creation.

Of course you have to debate from that point of view, Zack, I can also judge how people would perceive a deity they follow, being as if I can have what I see better morals or the fact again to me it seems absurd how if a deity was all powerful would need to create humans and also evil and not have any other deities to fear off, to then command people if you do not follow him, you will be condemned or many other aspects. That is not the actions of a normal human but a petty one, let alone all powerful who has nothing to fear from as deities but creates other religious concepts so he can punish billions.

I find that to me impossible for an all knowing powerful deity, if this deity exists and this is what they are like, then send me down to hell, because the heaven is just another hell.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

You're mistaking my intentions. I am not debating. I'm answering questions.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Zack

Is not part of debating presenting a convincing argument?

Sorry but there is no logic to an all seeing deity where people then still have a choice, because if the future is set your choices has all ready been programmed in every action you do, thus premeditated. If we really had a choice in this concept, I would thus be able to have a chance of choosing different to the plan, hence why the logic behind a case of free will with an all knowing deity is silly in my book

You're mistaking my intentions. I am not debating. I'm answering questions.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

lol you correct false claims...ha ha ha..

your determination to defend islam has been noted... :D 

God of the bible is not the same as allah that is very obvious...

No I defend against absurd claims to start hate towards followers of faiths, ethnic group, homosexuals for example, thus I correct false claims, what you do not like is your claim is to ignore your own faith which is vastly more violent, so how does that make your faith look? That shows to me you like any the 3 main  Abrahamic faiths will be the most hypocritical when condemning one of the other two.

Again your stance is to promote a fear, and fear leads to hate and hate leads to violence, that is why your view is absurd and even more so you try to exonerate crimes in the bible

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Of course you have to debate from that point of view, Zack, I can also judge how people would perceive a deity they follow, being as if I can have what I see better morals or the fact again to me it seems absurd how if a deity was all powerful would need to create humans and also evil and not have any other deities to fear off, to then command people if you do not follow him, you will be condemned or many other aspects. That is not the actions of a normal human but a petty one, let alone all powerful who has nothing to fear from as deities but creates other religious concepts so he can punish billions.

I find that to me impossible for an all knowing powerful deity, if this deity exists and this is what they are like, then send me down to hell, because the heaven is just another hell.

According to Islam, God could have made you an automaton (like an angel) - who just follows instructions without questioning.

But God would rather one follow him out of their own free choice, by asking intelligent questions - just as you are.

Surely you can see that one who has these choices is a higher form of creation.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! That's not a problem. That is how Islamic spirituality works.  God has perfect knowledge. His creation doesn't.

Imagine a party you are desperate to attend. There are 2 lists, one secret and the other depends on your intent/actions.

You have no idea if you're on the secret list - so you do good actions to get an invitation on the second list.

On judgement or party day, you will find that the secret list matches the other list exactly.

The ones who didn't want to attend the party were never on the secret list in the first place. God knew/knows who really wanted/s an invite.

that's not how islamic spirituality works fuzzmuck

the qur'an specifically states that Allah chooses who believes and who doesn't  

so its more like only people on the secret list are sent out secret invitations , everyone else doesn't even now there is a party and are then punished for not attending  

006.125
Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


No I defend against absurd claims to start hate towards followers of faiths, ethnic group, homosexuals for example, thus I correct false claims, what you do not like is your claim is to ignore your own faith which is vastly more violent, so how does that make your faith look? That shows to me you like any the 3 main  Abrahamic faiths will be the most hypocritical when condemning one of the other two.

Again your stance is to promote a fear, and fear leads to hate and hate leads to violence, that is why your view is absurd and even more so you try to exonerate crimes in the bible

just check if allah has a son please, it shouldn't be hard to do?? :D 

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

just check if allah has a son please, it shouldn't be hard to do?? :D 

Allah or your God do not exist to me and the Jews don't speak of a son of God either, only a messiah

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

According to Islam, God could have made you an automaton (like an angel) - who just follows instructions without questioning.

But God would rather one follow him out of their own free choice, by asking intelligent questions - just as you are.

Surely you can see that one who has these choices is a higher form of creation.

You are not seeing my point, we have choices and see we have choices as humans but if an omnipotent deity existed, then everything anyone does is thus programmed in advance because you cannot alter the future, thus your choices have already been predetermined.
That is not choice, because how can a person follow any path if the future with a choice if it is already set?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


You are not seeing my point, we have choices and see we have choices as humans but if an omnipotent deity existed, then everything anyone does is thus programmed in advance because you cannot alter the future, thus your choices have already been predetermined.
That is not choice, because how can a person follow any path if the future with a choice if it is already set?

You're not the only own to be confused by the concept of 'qadr'. Muslims asked the same questions directly to the prophet.

There is predestination is Islam as God is all knowing - I agree with you about that.

But your destination is still determined by your choices. And no one but you can be held responsible for your choices.

Got to go again. See ya.

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You're not the only own to be confused by the concept of 'qadr'. Muslims asked the same questions directly to the prophet.

There is predestination is Islam as God is all knowing - I agree with you about that.

But your destination is still determined by your choices. And no one but you can be held responsible for your choices.

Got to go again. See ya.

Sorry there is no choice, for example lets take the position your deity exists, your deity can see all and thus can see the future and this future is never mentioned as being not set in stone but with choices.
This if it is set in stone, the people that got on the planes that were hijacked for 9/11 would have been predetermined the choice they bought tickets or needed to fly.
Now unless you are saying you can change the future what God already knows, then what you end up doing is already set and cannot change from that path, even before you are born. If someone survives is because with your faith this was forseen.

Thus to have a deity belief of a seeing the future set in stone means nobody would have any choices as they will end up making the choices that sets them on the many paths seen in the future

Thus no choice