Why are there so many 'honest and decent' Muslims in prison...?

Revealed: How one in five inmates in maximum security prisons is Muslim

1,229 out of the 5,885 prisoners in high-security jails follow the Islamic faith
The figure equates to 20% compared with 5% Muslim population in Britain
At Whitemoor prison, Cambridgeshire, 44% of the 447 inmates are Muslim
Some experts warns jails are ‘ripe’ to become extremist recruiting grounds






http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3447159/The-Muslim-extremists-taking-British-jails.html


https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/uk-up-to-44-of-max-security-prison-population-is-Muslim-out-of-a-5-total-Muslim-population/

Usually disproportionate numbers in prisons means a bias in the jurors, who in turn represent the general society.  Accoring to Ashley Nellis, PhD:

The Sentencing Project wrote:African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. [Documenting] the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, [Dr. Nellis] identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.

*  *  *  *

Key Findings

African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.

In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.

States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.

Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).

*  *  *  *

Causes of Disparity

The data in this report document pervasive racial disparities in state imprisonment, and make clear that despite greater awareness among the public of mass incarceration and some modest successes at decarceration, racial and ethnic disparities are still a substantial feature of our prison system.

Three recurrent explanations for racial disparities emerge from dozens of studies on the topic: policies and practices that drive disparity; the role of implicit bias and stereotypes in decisionmaking; and, structural disadvantages in communities of color which are associated with high rates of offending and arrest.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

As long as people participating in the system have hatred for certain racial and ethnic elements in the society, they are going give it the old 'thumbs down' when they are called on to judge.  And it is not rational; it is reflexive: any code word--black, Muslim, Hispanic--triggers an attitudinal response.  

We see it here, with certain posters who respond immediately to any suggestion of a story about "Asians", "Muslims", "Pakistani", "Hispanic", etc.  They even go looking for stories to post, thereby placing the cart before the horse.  

Given a nation full of those people, what is the likelihood that they are not going to vote guilty?

Or a more simple answer is they are doing shit loads of crime...

Original Quill wrote:Usually disproportionate numbers in prisons means a bias in the jurors, who in turn represent the general society.  Accoring to Ashley Nellis, PhD:

The Sentencing Project wrote:African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. [Documenting] the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, [Dr. Nellis] identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.

*  *  *  *

Key Findings

African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.

In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.

States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.

Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).

*  *  *  *

Causes of Disparity

The data in this report document pervasive racial disparities in state imprisonment, and make clear that despite greater awareness among the public of mass incarceration and some modest successes at decarceration, racial and ethnic disparities are still a substantial feature of our prison system.

Three recurrent explanations for racial disparities emerge from dozens of studies on the topic: policies and practices that drive disparity; the role of implicit bias and stereotypes in decisionmaking; and, structural disadvantages in communities of color which are associated with high rates of offending and arrest.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

As long as people participating in the system have hatred for certain racial and ethnic elements in the society, they are going give it the old 'thumbs down' when they are called on to judge.  And it is not rational; it is reflexive: any code word--black, Muslim, Hispanic--triggers an attitudinal response.  

We see it here, with certain posters who respond immediately to any suggestion of a story about "Asians", "Muslims", "Pakistani", "Hispanic", etc.  They even go looking for stories to post, thereby placing the cart before the horse.  

Given a nation full of those people, what is the likelihood that they are not going to vote guilty?

If you lived in the UK, and saw stories about Asians raping young teenage girls, its not difficult to know that in 99% of cases the Asians referred to in the press will be Muslims of Pakistani origin.

If you doubt that....here is a list of towns and cities throughout England where the gangs are known to have been/still are operating in.
And for every ONE man tried and found guilty of child grooming, rape, and passing round their victims to friends and families (and many have been) countless are still roaming free.

SKIPTON
ROTHERHAM
SHEFFIELD
BLACKPOOL
OXFORD
HALIFAX
BRADFORD
IPSWICH
LONDON
TELFORD
PRESTON
DERBY
TORBAY
BRISTOL
BANBURY
CHESHAM
BARKING
BIRMINGHAM
BLACKBURN
ROCHDALE
LEEDS
STOCKPORT
AYLESBURY
YEOVIL
NEWCASTLE
BURTON
ACCRINGTON
ORMSKIRK
KEIGHLEY
MANCHESTER
OLDHAM
PETERBOROUGH
DEWSBURY
LITTLEHAMPTON
MIDDLESBOROUGH
SLOUGH.

Green from me Syl...

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Usually disproportionate numbers in prisons means a bias in the jurors, who in turn represent the general society.  Accoring to Ashley Nellis, PhD:



As long as people participating in the system have hatred for certain racial and ethnic elements in the society, they are going give it the old 'thumbs down' when they are called on to judge.  And it is not rational; it is reflexive: any code word--black, Muslim, Hispanic--triggers an attitudinal response.  

We see it here, with certain posters who respond immediately to any suggestion of a story about "Asians", "Muslims", "Pakistani", "Hispanic", etc.  They even go looking for stories to post, thereby placing the cart before the horse.  

Given a nation full of those people, what is the likelihood that they are not going to vote guilty?

If you lived in the UK, and saw stories about Asians raping young teenage girls, its not difficult to know that in 99% of cases the Asians referred to in the press will be Muslims of Pakistani origin.

If you doubt that....here is a list of towns and cities throughout England where the gangs are known to have been/still are operating in.
And for every ONE man tried and found guilty of child grooming, rape, and passing round their victims to friends and families (and many have been) countless are still roaming free.

SKIPTON
ROTHERHAM
SHEFFIELD
BLACKPOOL
OXFORD
HALIFAX
BRADFORD
IPSWICH
LONDON
TELFORD
PRESTON
DERBY
TORBAY
BRISTOL
BANBURY
CHESHAM
BARKING
BIRMINGHAM
BLACKBURN
ROCHDALE
LEEDS
STOCKPORT
AYLESBURY
YEOVIL
NEWCASTLE
BURTON
ACCRINGTON
ORMSKIRK
KEIGHLEY
MANCHESTER
OLDHAM
PETERBOROUGH
DEWSBURY
LITTLEHAMPTON
MIDDLESBOROUGH
SLOUGH.

It's been going on for decades and still continues.

Thanks Tommy.
It makes me laugh when people who know sweet sod all about what's happening here try to lord it over people who live and .....surprise surprise....actually KNOW the facts.

My next door neighbours are Indian, there is a big Chinese population in Manchester....I know for a fact they get thoroughly pissed off when the press, police, and authorities refer to the gangs of Pakistani Muslim gangs as "Asian"......and I think we are all unconsciously guilty of doing that sometimes.

Well its time to refer to these child molesting female hating pigs exactly as to what they are....if certain Imams and elders are brave enough to speak out and recognise the problems in their own communities, so should everyone else.

Have a green Syl, that's exactly whats happening, only there are some who refuse to believe it !

And it must be said that it was boys and other non Muslim girls targetted too...

Syl wrote:Thanks Tommy.
It makes me laugh when people who know sweet sod all about what's happening here try to lord it over people who live and .....surprise surprise....actually KNOW the facts.

My next door neighbours are Indian, there is a big Chinese population in Manchester....I know for a fact they get thoroughly pissed off when the press, police, and authorities refer to the gangs of Pakistani Muslim gangs as "Asian"......and I think we are all unconsciously guilty of doing that sometimes.

Well its time to  refer to these child molesting female hating pigs exactly as to what they are....if certain Imams and elders are brave enough to speak out and recognise the problems in their own communities, so should everyone else.  

Well said Syl

Thanks Miffs and Nicko x

So true Syl. Indians are not involved in these rapes, here, Germany, France, its Pakistani Muslims. It's time they were called who they are and not mixed up with India's men.

Any way you cut it, it's the society's fault.

In what way? elaborate .

nicko wrote:In what way?   elaborate .

A process elimination.  It ain't China's fault.  Vietnam wasn't around when it all started.  I believe it really started with another 'we/they' in society.  

What does that do?  Well, Pakistanis occupied certain neighborhoods--say, East London--and whites clustered in West London, etc.  They looked over at each and antipathy set in.  A Pakistani got a job with the Underground, and every time he got on the intercom, it sounded like mini, mini, mini, mini-pa-pa-padoo.  The whites laughed, and covered their mouths and rolled their eyes.  The Pakistanis were embarrassed, and retorted (in their self-talk): what makes "them" so great, anyway?  And so it goes...two people learn to dislike, thence on to hate each other.

We've seen it with the Irish.  We've seen it with the blacks in this country--only, much more violently.  It's quite common.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:In what way?   elaborate .

A process elimination.  It ain't China's fault.  Vietnam wasn't around when it all started.  I believe it really started with another 'we/they' in society.  

What does that do?  Well, Pakistanis occupied certain neighborhoods--say, East London--and whites clustered in West London, etc.  They looked over at each and antipathy set in.  A Pakistani got a job with the Underground, and every time he got on the intercom, it sounded like mini, mini, mini, mini-pa-pa-padoo.  The whites laughed, and covered their mouths and rolled their eyes.  The Pakistanis were embarrassed, and retorted (in their self-talk) what makes "them" so great, anyway?  And so it goes...two people learn to dislike, thence on to hate each other.

We've seen it with the Irish.  We've seen it with the blacks in this country--only, much more violently.  It's quite common.

Maybe it's the fault of the actual rapists. Did you think of that?

Besides, you can barely hear what anyone is saying when there are announcements at train stations, whatever their accent.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

A process elimination.  It ain't China's fault.  Vietnam wasn't around when it all started.  I believe it really started with another 'we/they' in society.  

What does that do?  Well, Pakistanis occupied certain neighborhoods--say, East London--and whites clustered in West London, etc.  They looked over at each and antipathy set in.  A Pakistani got a job with the Underground, and every time he got on the intercom, it sounded like mini, mini, mini, mini-pa-pa-padoo.  The whites laughed, and covered their mouths and rolled their eyes.  The Pakistanis were embarrassed, and retorted (in their self-talk) what makes "them" so great, anyway?  And so it goes...two people learn to dislike, thence on to hate each other.

We've seen it with the Irish.  We've seen it with the blacks in this country--only, much more violently.  It's quite common.

Maybe it's the fault of the actual rapists. Did you think of that?

Of course, but that doesn't say much. That's like...I don't want to talk about it!!

Raggamuffin wrote:Besides, you can barely hear what anyone is saying when there are announcements at train stations, whatever their accent.

I know, but the Pakistanis lend a specific flavor. I don't mean to be critical, only to say they stand out. And I've been on the train when everyone giggles.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Maybe it's the fault of the actual rapists. Did you think of that?

Of course, but that doesn't say much.  That's like...I don't want to talk about it!!

Talk about what? Blaming people who laugh at intercom announcements for others being rapists?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Of course, but that doesn't say much.  That's like...I don't want to talk about it!!

Talk about what? Blaming people who laugh at intercom announcements for others being rapists?

Nicko asked me to provide a causal chain, and I did the best I could.  I didn't fill in all the links.  The disgruntled, out-of-work trainman who blames the Pakistanis who have "his" job...the person who is just pissed in the morning, going to work.  You'd be bored if I went through every one, one by one.

It's the tips of the icebergs, I know.  But that's how sub-groups of society grow apart.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Talk about what? Blaming people who laugh at intercom announcements for others being rapists?

Nicko asked me to provide a causal chain, and I did the best I could.  I didn't fill in all the links.  The disgruntled, out-of-work trainman who blames the Pakistanis...the person who is just pissed in the morning, going to work.  You'd be bored if I went through every one, one by one.

It's the tips of the icebergs, I know.  But that's how sub-groups of society grow apart.

I don't see how that how that makes anyone go out to find young girls to pester.

WTF is Quill waffling on about now...!!!???

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Nicko asked me to provide a causal chain, and I did the best I could.  I didn't fill in all the links.  The disgruntled, out-of-work trainman who blames the Pakistanis...the person who is just pissed in the morning, going to work.  You'd be bored if I went through every one, one by one.

It's the tips of the icebergs, I know.  But that's how sub-groups of society grow apart.

I don't see how that how that makes anyone go out to find young girls to pester.

Well, once the hostility sets in, who knows what self-talk makes one do that.

You know, look...maybe you are suggesting that it's not sub-groups of society. That Pakistanis as a group are not even involved. If that's what you are saying, I'd be glad to be wrong. But this thread, and others like it, is testament to someone's feeling that this is a group thing, and the bad guys are Muslims. Maybe not...

Tommy Monk wrote:WTF is Quill waffling on about now...!!!???

Don't worry your pretty little head, tommy.  You wouldn't follow, anyway.

I'm following your trail of bullshit...!!!

magica wrote:So true Syl.  Indians are not involved in these rapes, here, Germany, France, its Pakistani Muslims. It's time they were called who they are and not mixed up with India's men.

Trying to fudge the facts has gone on far too long.
When a judge who has presided over the court where these men are tried speaks out and tells it like it is, or when a police chief or imam speak out,...far to often others rush in and try to spread the blame.

Who does that help?

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:In what way?   elaborate .

A process elimination.  It ain't China's fault.  Vietnam wasn't around when it all started.  I believe it really started with another 'we/they' in society.  

What does that do?  Well, Pakistanis occupied certain neighborhoods--say, East London--and whites clustered in West London, etc.  They looked over at each and antipathy set in.  A Pakistani got a job with the Underground, and every time he got on the intercom, it sounded like mini, mini, mini, mini-pa-pa-padoo.  The whites laughed, and covered their mouths and rolled their eyes.  The Pakistanis were embarrassed, and retorted (in their self-talk): what makes "them" so great, anyway?  And so it goes...two people learn to dislike, thence on to hate each other.

We've seen it with the Irish.  We've seen it with the blacks in this country--only, much more violently.  It's quite common.

Thats total rubbish in context of whats happening now.
The Muslim communities where the gangs have flourished stick together and dont integrate by their own choosing. Far from 'whites' looking down on them, the Pakistani males look down on the whites....especially the women, including their own.
We all know that this doesn't apply to the majority of first, second and third generation of immigrants, who come here to add to society, but they are not the ones raping and grooming children are they.

Quills point is valid because he's right about little societies forming within societies....but!
It has nothing to do with Pakistani gangs who are raping women. These men aren't raping women because they're pissed off someone laughed at their uncle's accent on the central line and they're not raping women because they come from Pakistan.
They're raping women because they're vile and evil bastards and they're getting away with it.

eddie wrote:Quills point is valid because he's right about little societies forming within societies....but!
It has nothing to do with Pakistani gangs who are raping women. These men aren't raping women because they're pissed off someone laughed at their uncle's accent on the central line and they're not raping women because they come from Pakistan.
They're raping women because they're vile and evil bastards and they're getting away with it.

People dont integrate for a variety of reasons.
Not speaking the language, being housed togrther and creating ghettos, simply being comfortable amongst your own, and in some cultures not willing to adapt to your host countries rules and laws....and yes, add to that suspicion and mistrust of locals, not helped by all of the above.

The men who form the grooming gangs simply have zero respect for the girls they abuse....they are treated like cheap meat.
Like you say...that has absolutely nothing to do with anyones accent, Quill is simply making  excuses for men who act worse than animals.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

A process elimination.  It ain't China's fault.  Vietnam wasn't around when it all started.  I believe it really started with another 'we/they' in society.  

What does that do?  Well, Pakistanis occupied certain neighborhoods--say, East London--and whites clustered in West London, etc.  They looked over at each and antipathy set in.  A Pakistani got a job with the Underground, and every time he got on the intercom, it sounded like mini, mini, mini, mini-pa-pa-padoo.  The whites laughed, and covered their mouths and rolled their eyes.  The Pakistanis were embarrassed, and retorted (in their self-talk): what makes "them" so great, anyway?  And so it goes...two people learn to dislike, thence on to hate each other.

We've seen it with the Irish.  We've seen it with the blacks in this country--only, much more violently.  It's quite common.

Thats total rubbish in context of whats happening now.
The Muslim communities where the gangs have flourished stick together and dont integrate by their own choosing. Far from 'whites' looking down on them, the Pakistani males look down on the whites....especially the women, including their own.
We all know that this doesn't apply to the majority of first, second and third generation of immigrants, who come here to add to society,  but they are not the ones raping and grooming children are they.

So you think that this is all being caused by Pakistanis, or at least Muslims? You feel that the Muslims choose to be outsiders?

So what makes them rape young white girls? Just bad genes?

eddie wrote:Quills point is valid because he's right about little societies forming within societies....but!
It has nothing to do with Pakistani gangs who are raping women. These men aren't raping women because they're pissed off someone laughed at their uncle's accent on the central line and they're not raping women because they come from Pakistan.
They're raping women because they're vile and evil bastards and they're getting away with it.

Are all Pakistanis "vile and evil bastards," or just the rapists. Because if it isn't Pakistanis, just the perpetrators, then leave nationality out of it. Focus on the criminals, as Raggs says, and disregard their nationality.

Isn't that a fair assessment?

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Thats total rubbish in context of whats happening now.
The Muslim communities where the gangs have flourished stick together and dont integrate by their own choosing. Far from 'whites' looking down on them, the Pakistani males look down on the whites....especially the women, including their own.
We all know that this doesn't apply to the majority of first, second and third generation of immigrants, who come here to add to society,  but they are not the ones raping and grooming children are they.

So you think that this is all being caused by Pakistanis, or at least Muslims?  You feel that the Muslims choose to be outsiders?

So what makes them rape young white girls?  Just bad genes?

Not bad genes, but if young men are taught by the older generation they respect that white girls are trash....and many of the sexual predators who were convicted of grooming and raping are of the older generation, this total disregard for young white kids will continue.

Syl wrote:

eddie wrote:Quills point is valid because he's right about little societies forming within societies....but!
It has nothing to do with Pakistani gangs who are raping women. These men aren't raping women because they're pissed off someone laughed at their uncle's accent on the central line and they're not raping women because they come from Pakistan.
They're raping women because they're vile and evil bastards and they're getting away with it.

People dont integrate for a variety of reasons.
Not speaking the language, being housed togrther and creating ghettos, simply being comfortable amongst your own, and in some cultures not willing to adapt to your host countries rules and laws....and yes, add to that suspicion and mistrust of locals, not helped by all of the above.

The men who form the grooming gangs simply have zero respect for the girls they abuse....they are treated like cheap meat.
Like you say...that has absolutely nothing to do with anyones accent, Quill is simply making  excuses for men who act worse than animals.

I wish it were that easy. But I still have questions, notably: what makes Pakistanis such evil people? Is it genetic? Or, is it the Muslim religion? What factor causes these gangs to coalesce?

Or is it, as Raggs says, just skulduggery and outlawry? And in that case, why not just leave nationality and religion out of it? To wit: there are some gangs which form and groom young women, and ultimately they rape them. Who are they? Just outlaws. Nothing more.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

So you think that this is all being caused by Pakistanis, or at least Muslims?  You feel that the Muslims choose to be outsiders?

So what makes them rape young white girls?  Just bad genes?

Not bad genes, but if young men are taught by the older generation they respect that white girls are trash....and many of the sexual predators who were convicted of grooming and raping are of the older generation, this total disregard for young white kids will continue.

Is it a generational thing?  Which?  Gen X?  Generation Y/Millennium?  Generation Z/Boomlets?  http://www.marketingteacher.com/the-six-living-generations/  And what is it, within the given generation, that makes them so vile?

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Quills point is valid because he's right about little societies forming within societies....but!
It has nothing to do with Pakistani gangs who are raping women. These men aren't raping women because they're pissed off someone laughed at their uncle's accent on the central line and they're not raping women because they come from Pakistan.
They're raping women because they're vile and evil bastards and they're getting away with it.

Are all Pakistanis "vile and evil bastards," or just the rapists.  Because if it isn't Pakistanis, just the perpetrators, then leave nationality out of it.  Focus on the criminals, as Raggs says, and disregard their nationality.

Isn't that a fair assessment?

Didn't you read my post?

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

People dont integrate for a variety of reasons.
Not speaking the language, being housed togrther and creating ghettos, simply being comfortable amongst your own, and in some cultures not willing to adapt to your host countries rules and laws....and yes, add to that suspicion and mistrust of locals, not helped by all of the above.

The men who form the grooming gangs simply have zero respect for the girls they abuse....they are treated like cheap meat.
Like you say...that has absolutely nothing to do with anyones accent, Quill is simply making  excuses for men who act worse than animals.

I wish it were that easy.  But I still have questions, notably: what makes Pakistanis such evil people?  Is it genetic?  Or, is it the Muslim religion?  What factor causes these gangs to coalesce?

Or is it, as Raggs says, just skulduggery and outlawry?  And in that case, why not just leave nationality and religion out of it?  To wit: there are some gangs which form and groom young women, and ultimately they rape them.  Who are they?  Just outlaws.  Nothing more.

Dont you think its helpful to pinpoint who is commiting the crimes in order to find out why?
Now we all know who....the reasons 'why' may not be as straightforward.

Not having respect for certain people....in this case females, and notably in the cases we are talking about underage white ones, has to be adressed.
Add to this the fact that the girls were ignored and disbelieved for decades when they tried to get help, and the perpetrators were shielded by a wall of silence in their own communities, so its not hard to see how the abuse escalated.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I wish it were that easy.  But I still have questions, notably: what makes Pakistanis such evil people?  Is it genetic?  Or, is it the Muslim religion?  What factor causes these gangs to coalesce?

Or is it, as Raggs says, just skulduggery and outlawry?  And in that case, why not just leave nationality and religion out of it?  To wit: there are some gangs which form and groom young women, and ultimately they rape them.  Who are they?  Just outlaws.  Nothing more.

Dont you think its helpful to pinpoint who is commiting the crimes in order to find out why?
Now we all know who....the reasons 'why' may not be as straightforward.

Not having respect for certain people....in this case females, and notably in the cases we are talking about underage white ones,  has to be adressed.
Add to this the fact that the girls were ignored and disbelieved  for decades when they tried to get help, and the perpetrators were shielded by a wall of silence in their own communities, so its not hard to see how the abuse escalated.

Yes, I completely understand the sympathy for the victims.  It is made worse that people didn't believe them.  And I agree that it is necessary to learn who is committing these crimes and why.  That's the reason why I bore in on those questions.

But you are way ahead of me.  Who do you have in mind?  And why do you say that?  Why? is admittedly the next questions, because it is obviously related to understanding causes.

Quill, i posted this once before. Its written by a modern Muslim woman, Saira Khan who grew up in a close knit Muslim community, she is a journalist and TV presenter.
She wrote this piece after watching a televised factual account of one of the recent grooming cases.

,"Watching a TV drama packed with vile villains who looked and sounded just like the men in the community I grew up in had me in despair this week.
The BBC’s harrowing but ­brilliant Three Girls told the true story of a Rochdale paedophile gang, nine men of Pakistani origin who groomed and abused vulnerable white girls, some only 13.
Repeated failures by police and social services to address this scandal – despite a mountain of evidence – are well documented.
And it’s clear such organised abuse was allowed to carry on for so long because nearly everyone who could have stopped it had written off those poor girls – who came from chaotic, difficult backgrounds – as flaky, unreliable, ­inferior witness material.
The authorities were also accused of backing off for fear of being called racists.

But five years after these men were jailed, one of the detectives who put them away has revealed there are many more young rape victims who’ve never seen justice.
So we have to ask – why? We have to shine a light on a terrible wrong that needs to be put right.
It’s way past time to be worrying about being politically incorrect or what capital the extreme right-wing might make of it all. Pretending this never happened just plays into their hands.
Paedophiles come in all colours – and the Pakistani community (which is very over-represented in child grooming cases) is no exception. It has been asked: “How do men with wives and kids, living in such tight-knit communities, get away with this for so long?”
The sickening answer is they were protected by the very group that should have exposed them.

Such communities, which I know well, are made up of extended families, many of whom entered the UK through marriage.
Some can’t speak much English, and most don’t feel British and have no desire to integrate.
Their culture decrees that the avoidance of shame is everything so they never “tell on their own”.
Even more disturbing, the wives of these men may suspect their husbands are sleeping around.
They may even have caught a sexually transmitted disease from them, but they are culturally bound to keep their mouths shut, or risk being beaten or even killed.
This patriarchal culture operates in segregated households where men are the priority and women are not seen or heard.

Marriage is usually between first cousins or other ­relatives from Pakistan. This is thought necessary to protect the
“biradari” (it means male kin) and is a clan-based system.
Every aspect of the lives of the women who live under it is controlled. They are told what to wear and how to behave.
Their life starts and ends at home where they cook, clean and raise children while their husbands go out to work, socialise and do as they please.
These men have nothing but contempt for young white girls allowed the freedoms they deny their wives and daughters.
Don’t get me wrong – the vast majority of child abusers are white men, acting alone.
And not all men of ­Pakistani heritage are in paedophile grooming gangs, just as not all white working class girls are troubled and vulnerable.

But to expose the evil few, we must admit culture and race plays its part and that a small minority of Pakistani men has an unacceptable view of white girls.
Only by being honest about the actions of that minority can we stop all decent, law-abiding Pakistani men being tarred with the same brush.""

_________________

Gd post.  It's a theory. So it is the insular nature of the people of Pakistani origin that, to you, is the cause here.  Or...the recipe of being outlanders, having a culture of shame, which causes such secretiveness.

But what is it that causes, not the cover-up, so to speak, but the original act?  Is it just contempt?  Is it an emotional response to seeing free women loose out in the public?

And if so, shouldn't there be an educational program to teach the alternative to these people--the British way?  Cd be a requirement for a visa or citizenship.

Original Quill wrote:Gd post.  It's a theory.  So it is the insular nature of the people of Pakistani origin that, to you, is the cause here.  Or...the recipe of being outlanders, having a culture of shame, which causes such secretiveness.

But what is it that causes, not the cover-up, so to speak, but the original act?  Is it just contempt?  Is it an emotional response to seeing free women loose out in the public?

And if so, shouldn't there be an educational program to teach the alternative to these people--the British way?  Cd be a requirement for a visa or citizenship.

Thanks Quill....I found her comments interesting, because obviously she knows a lot more than I do about the Muslim culture herself having lived it.
Obviously her view is only one view, I bet many Muslim women have had different experiences of the men in their lives growing up...just as one white Catholic girls upbringing can be different from the next one.

As for what to do ..prevention being better than cure.....education is always helpful, the problem seems to be that the education some young Muslim men are experiencing isn't teaching them respect for women or different cultures which surely must be at the very heart of the problem.

One way forwards could be to ensure that everyone who emigrates to this country must speak the language. Oddly enough in my limited experience of the Muslim families who have settled here in the last two decades, these being neighbours, the Muslim Pakistani men CAN speak English very well....all to often the woman can neither speak nor understand it, so they are trapped.

That's why I linked the education to obtaining a visa or citizenship.  It wouldn't be hard.

We have such a requirement with regard to US History...an aspirant must undergo a brief survey course of events and their meaning beforehand. I mean...if one really wants to get something done, and not just have a talking point.

Original Quill wrote:That's why I linked the education to obtaining a visa or citizenship.  It wouldn't be hard.

We have such a requirement with regard to US History...an aspirant must undergo a brief survey course of events and their meaning beforehand.  I mean...if one really wants to get something done, and not just have a talking point.

Quill...if you read the other thread about the young girl in Pakistan raped because her brother had raped another girl....when people have that sort of mindset regarding women, knowing a few historical facts about the country you want to emigrate to will hardly help.
Education is important, but it has to start early and it cant be helped if the fathers and forefathers hold and pass on such harmful views.

I obviously don't have the answers, other than severely  punish the ones who act in such barbaric ways towards women and fellow human beings....which in the UK certainly isn't happening..

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:That's why I linked the education to obtaining a visa or citizenship.  It wouldn't be hard.

We have such a requirement with regard to US History...an aspirant must undergo a brief survey course of events and their meaning beforehand.  I mean...if one really wants to get something done, and not just have a talking point.

Quill...if you read the other thread about the young girl in Pakistan raped because her brother had raped another girl....when people have that sort of mindset regarding women, knowing a few historical facts about the country you want to emigrate to will hardly help.
Education is important, but it has to start early and it cant be helped if the fathers and forefathers hold and pass on such harmful views.

I obviously don't have the answers, other than severely  punish the ones who act in such barbaric ways towards women and fellow human beings....which in the UK certainly isn't happening..

So, you think the problem is hopeless?

I mean, punishment is wonderful, but you did say, by way of the Saira Khan article, that this was a culture-wide issue.  Muslims amount to 1.6-billion people, and that is a lot of people to punish.

Somebody else might suggest we simply kick all Muslim people out of Britain...call it the wall-out approach.  Apart from the hypocrisy of embracing a country as a part of the Empire, and then branding them persona non gratis, this anti-foreigner approach has been tried by the Chinese, with  two Opium Wars between 1839–1860, and the Boxer Rebellion, without success.

Anyway, those were the alternatives I was thinking of when I suggested education as a more feasible way.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:



Quill...if you read the other thread about the young girl in Pakistan raped because her brother had raped another girl....when people have that sort of mindset regarding women, knowing a few historical facts about the country you want to emigrate to will hardly help.
Education is important, but it has to start early and it cant be helped if the fathers and forefathers hold and pass on such harmful views.

I obviously don't have the answers, other than severely  punish the ones who act in such barbaric ways towards women and fellow human beings....which in the UK certainly isn't happening..

So, you think the problem is hopeless?

I mean, punishment is wonderful, but you did say, by way of the Saira Khan article, that this was a culture-wide issue.  Muslims amount to 1.6-billion people, and that is a lot of people to punish.

Somebody else might suggest we simply kick all Muslim people out of Britain...call it the wall-out approach.  Apart from the hypocrisy of embracing a country as a part of the Empire, and then branding them persona non gratis, this anti-foreigner approach has been tried by the Chinese, with  two Opium Wars between 1839–1860, and the Boxer Rebellion, without success.

Anyway, those were the alternatives I was thinking of when I suggested education as a more feasible way.

As I have already said before on another thread.

The fact is there has been mainly ethnically Pakistani grooming gangs. Who have been targeting many white girls, Indian Sikh girls and Muslim girls. Most of which the Muslim girl victims is covered up within the Muslim community.

So the question to ask is why does grooming happen more specifically with one ethnic group in the UK?

Just look at the recent article of where the elders of a village carried out punishment not on the rapist. But on the rapist's sister, whilst they all watched, including her own parents.

Why do you think they did this?

Now this stems from mainly rural areas where there is a lack of education, but also beliefs and caste systems are embedded into the mindset of rural Pakistani's. That women are deemed inferior. Non-Muslim women classed more inferior and are misused based on what is taught around sex slaves in the Quran and hadith. (We see this prevalent within ISIS with sex slaves). You also with the village have a warped interpretation on an eye for an eye (not punishing the rapist but his sister) which is based on a misogynistic and again view that women are treated like cattle in such societies. 

Hence why we have a problem mainly from within the Pakistani community with rape, along side the issue of ethnically white and black rapists in this country. Again most Pakistani's are not rapists, but a substantial number have been grooming and abusing girls for years, getting away with this. They are mainly from or descend from the rural areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan etc or lack education. We dont seem to have the same issue with many other Muslim ethnic groups in the UK. So clearly a caste/honour system. A system of male only tribal leaders. A lack of an open education. Religious misogynistic beliefs taught into the mindset. Taught to emulate Muhammad, where its taught he had sex slaves, presenting sex slaves to his men. They come from Pakistan where most sexual violence goes unpunished. Sexual immaturity. Is a combination of these factors that lead to higher numbers of rape and the abuse of women/girls committed by Pakistani men both in the UK and Pakistan. 

Also just look at Pakistan itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Pakistan

http://www.war.org.pk/history.html

Original Quill wrote:Any way you cut it, it's the society's fault.

it's also they systems fault

there are disproportionate amount of jews too

WHY? because in prison kosher and halal food is better

google it, heaps of articles on the fact that is what many prisoners themselves say

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Any way you cut it, it's the society's fault.

it's also they systems fault

there are disproportionate amount of jews too

WHY? because in prison kosher and halal food is better

google it, heaps of articles on the fact that is what many prisoners themselves say

So you are downplaying their crimes, based off Halal food as the reason?

wow

I would love to see these so called articles against what their cases on conviction were?

Talk about insulting the victims of rape and terrorism.

How does that also work in Pakistan where many are not even arrested for rape?

There is not a disproportionate amount of Jews in uk Jails either.

Jews make up 0.47 per cent of people in England and Wales, while Jewish inmates constitute 0.38 per cent of the prison population.

Muslims and Jews go to prisons "because the food is better"? !

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:



Quill...if you read the other thread about the young girl in Pakistan raped because her brother had raped another girl....when people have that sort of mindset regarding women, knowing a few historical facts about the country you want to emigrate to will hardly help.
Education is important, but it has to start early and it cant be helped if the fathers and forefathers hold and pass on such harmful views.

I obviously don't have the answers, other than severely  punish the ones who act in such barbaric ways towards women and fellow human beings....which in the UK certainly isn't happening..

So, you think the problem is hopeless?

I mean, punishment is wonderful, but you did say, by way of the Saira Khan article, that this was a culture-wide issue.  Muslims amount to 1.6-billion people, and that is a lot of people to punish.

Somebody else might suggest we simply kick all Muslim people out of Britain...call it the wall-out approach.  Apart from the hypocrisy of embracing a country as a part of the Empire, and then branding them persona non gratis, this anti-foreigner approach has been tried by the Chinese, with  two Opium Wars between 1839–1860, and the Boxer Rebellion, without success.

Anyway, those were the alternatives I was thinking of when I suggested education as a more feasible way.

No problem is hopeless but there is no easy answer.
Punishment for those caught abusing (like she said much of it is done behind closed doors and supported by the community) but the more people speak out...and now many do, the more it will be quashed...bit by bit.

Follow up suspicions of FGM, and do something about it...so far its ignored, even when its happening in this country.

Create special departments in the police (staffed by women) who will be willing to listen and act on young girls accounts of how they are being groomed....its still going on and its still being ignored.

When the groomers and rapists are jailed....don't insult society by freeing them years before they are entitled (as is happening now)

It will take time to change mindsets, but it can be done. Don't forget its only 50 years ago we jailed practicing homosexuals in this country and British women could be legally raped by their husbands a couple of decades ago.......so nothing is hopeless.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Besides, you can barely hear what anyone is saying when there are announcements at train stations, whatever their accent.

I know, but the Pakistanis lend a specific flavor.  I don't mean to be critical, only to say they stand out.  And I've been on the train when everyone giggles.

Are you stereotyping Pakistani accents?