Baltimore celebrates as six police officers charged for homicide of Freddie Gray

Thousands of people took to the streets of Baltimore on Saturday as anger over the death of a young black man turned to hopes for change following swift criminal charges against six police officers.

There was an upbeat mood at the march from the housing projects where 25-year-old Freddie Gray was arrested last month to a plaza in front of city hall where the city's chief prosecutor announced charges on Friday ranging from murder to assault in his death.

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, who has largely been absent from demonstrations over Gray's death, mingled with the crowd on Saturday near the West Baltimore intersection that saw the worst of rioting on Monday after Gray's funeral. He died on April 19, a week after suffering a fatal spinal injury while in police custody.

Many in the largely black city erupted with joy after the officers involved in the arrest were charged, in contrast to what happened after the deaths of unarmed black men over the past year in Ferguson, Missouri, and New York, where authorities found police broke no laws and officers involved were not charged.

***

On Friday, (Prosecutor Marilyn) Mosby said the Maryland state medical examiner had ruled Gray's death a homicide. She said he was unlawfully arrested and the officers repeatedly ignored his pleas for medical help while he was handcuffed, shackled and lying face down in the back of a police van.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/02/us-usa-police-baltimore-idUSKBN0NL1GO20150502

oh what a tangled web we weave.....

how the hell is "justice " going to be served here?

how the hell are the authorities going to pacify the insulted ranks of the police punch bags and at the same time NOT be accused of "throwing a few cops to the dogs"

they may well be guilty....and i think they are

BUT...........

IF they cops are "institutionally racist" (which it is clear they are) then one has to think with who's patronage did they become thus?

and that, clearly is the very same authority that is about to hang six of em out to dry, as they will see it. in an attempt to appease the "mob"

Now THAT in itself is then going to lead to crisis in theranks of the cops is it not?
I mean no cop will feel safe from that moment on....he's been "set up" by his employers

what wll happen

will many resign
or will they catch a sort of phobia about arresting coloured minorities

will they strike?? (I understand its legal for your cops to strike????)

or what....


I really dont see aclean way out of this....

whichever way it goes there is a whole bucket load of shit to come........

darknessss wrote:oh what a tangled web we weave.....

how the hell is "justice " going to be served here?

how the hell are the authorities going to pacify the insulted ranks of the police punch bags and at the same time NOT be accused of "throwing a few cops to the dogs"

they may well be guilty....and i think they are

BUT...........

IF they cops are "institutionally racist" (which it is clear they are) then one has to think with who's patronage did they become thus?

and that, clearly is the very same authority that is about to hang six of em out to dry, as they will see it. in an attempt to appease the "mob"

Now THAT in itself is then going to lead to crisis in theranks of the cops is it not?
I mean no cop will feel safe from that moment on....he's been "set up" by his employers

what wll happen

will many resign
or will they catch a sort of phobia about arresting coloured minorities

will they strike??   (I understand its legal for your cops to strike????)

or what....


I really dont see aclean way out of this....

whichever way it goes there is a whole bucket load of shit to come........

I'd rather accept any of your proposed (and far-fetched) scenarios than have police forces roaming the streets knowing they can kill with impunity.

Yes, it is a sick, incestuous infection, is it not? The cops were allowed to make racist killing the norm, which is in itself unacceptable. But with the new normal of prosecuting such cops, the police will feel betrayed.

What evil webs we weave...etc.

It's a strong argument for morality from the start.

well quill at least YOU see what I'm getting at

@Ben,rightly or wrongly if the cops feel betrayed, what will be the result of that ??
IF they are individually racist wont that then be a likely cause of even more friction with their employer (who is just as much to blame)?

Justice you may well get (and I hope you do) BUT I wonder what the price will be.....

cops as soft and selectively blind as ours???

back to Quill

Yes you are right morality from the start is what should have been.......

Am I missing something here? How can this be a racist crime against a black man if three of the alleged perpetrators are black themselves?

yes as usual you are missing a whole shed load....

darknessss wrote:yes as usual you are missing a whole shed load....

Like what?

like the statistics that prove if you are coloured you are more likely to be mistreated by the cops....

see the coloured cops can be just as "racist" as their white collegues you only have to think of the black slavers of years ago.....

fairly obvious they have "gone over"

some folks (of any colour) have no honour or principle.....

darknessss wrote:like the statistics that prove if you are coloured you are more likely to be mistreated by the cops....

see the coloured cops can be just as "racist" as their white collegues you only have to think of the black slavers of years ago.....

fairly obvious they have "gone over"

some folks (of any colour) have no honour or principle.....

Oh right. So if a white police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist, and if a black police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist.

It's as clear as mud.

Raggamuffin wrote:

darknessss wrote:like the statistics that prove if you are coloured you are more likely to be mistreated by the cops....

see the coloured cops can be just as "racist" as their white collegues you only have to think of the black slavers of years ago.....

fairly obvious they have "gone over"

some folks (of any colour) have no honour or principle.....

Oh right. So if a white police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist, and if a black police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist.

It's as clear as mud.

I'm reading with interest because I'm as clear as you are Rags

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh right. So if a white police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist, and if a black police officer kills a black person, he/she must be racist.

It's as clear as mud.

I'm reading with interest because I'm as clear as you are Rags

I'm glad it's not just me who doesn't get it.

Well according to lone wolf I'm a thick cow anyway lol

they are (collectively) "the police"

as an institution the "police are racist"

that is they target coloured minorities more often, more wrongly and in a more deadly manner than they do white

the fact that "some of the "police" " are from that coloured minority makes not one bit of difference to the above
its not who they are ...its what they do...

and if you fail to see that I despair and can now understand quills rants......

But the question remains; can a black police man be accused of a racist assault against a black man?

darknessss wrote:they are (collectively)  "the police"

as an institution the "police are racist"

that is they target coloured minorities more often, more wrongly and in a more deadly manner than they do white

the fact that "some of the "police" " are from that coloured minority makes not one bit of difference to the above
its not who they are ...its what they do...

and if you fail to see that I despair and can now understand quills rants......

It's good that you recognise Quills posts as being rants.

So you're saying that any action by the US police against anyone who is in a minority is racist?

In this particular case, it's not that "some" of the officers are black - half of them are black, and the one who's actually been charged with murder is black. Are people seriously suggested that he murdered Freddie Gray because they're both black?

hmmm....good question

could a jewish colaborator (and there were a (albeit very) few) be accused of genocide against the jews in germany??
could a french collaborator (and there were MORE than a few) be accused of war crimes against the french murdered by the Nazis??
I think the answer is YES indeed they can

coconut i beleive is the word used to describe those who have "gone over" to the white mans side

brown outside and white inside.....

Raggamuffin wrote:In this particular case, it's not that "some" of the officers are black - half of them are black, and the one who's actually been charged with murder is black. Are people seriously suggested that he murdered Freddie Gray because they're both black?

This is what confused me too tbh rags

Raggamuffin wrote:

darknessss wrote:they are (collectively)  "the police"

as an institution the "police are racist"

that is they target coloured minorities more often, more wrongly and in a more deadly manner than they do white

the fact that "some of the "police" " are from that coloured minority makes not one bit of difference to the above
its not who they are ...its what they do...

and if you fail to see that I despair and can now understand quills rants......

It's good that you recognise Quills posts as being rants.

So you're saying that any action by the US police against anyone who is in a minority is racist?

NO and you are being either deliberately obtuse or downright disingenious

it is the sum over time of what has been happening that is the problem

doubless there are plenty of correct and justifable arrests...

but there are a disproportionate amount that are unjustifiable AND wrongly deadly

THAT is racial targeting

you only have to look at the figures of whites that die in police custody to coloureds...THAT ONE statistic should give grave cause for concern....

darknessss wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's good that you recognise Quills posts as being rants.

So you're saying that any action by the US police against anyone who is in a minority is racist?

NO and you are being either deliberately obtuse or downright disingenious

it is the sum over time of what has been happening that is the problem

doubless there are plenty of correct and justifable arrests...

but there are a disproportionate amount that are unjustifiable AND wrongly deadly

THAT is racial targeting

you only have to look at the figures of whites that die in police custody to coloureds...THAT ONE statistic should give grave cause for concern....

I think you're clutching at straws really.

darknessss wrote:hmmm....good question

could a jewish colaborator (and there were a (albeit very) few) be accused of genocide against the jews in germany??
could a french collaborator (and there were MORE than a few) be accused of war crimes against the french murdered by the Nazis??
I think the answer is YES indeed they can

coconut i beleive is the word used to describe those who have "gone over" to the white mans side

brown outside and white inside.....

Oh right, so you think that some white police officers decided to go and kill some black guys, and they pursuaded some black police officers that this would be a great idea because they're really "white inside".

No they're called bounty bars

My dad was the opposite of that.

Raggamuffin wrote:

darknessss wrote:

NO and you are being either deliberately obtuse or downright disingenious

it is the sum over time of what has been happening that is the problem

doubless there are plenty of correct and justifable arrests...

but there are a disproportionate amount that are unjustifiable AND wrongly deadly

THAT is racial targeting

you only have to look at the figures of whites that die in police custody to coloureds...THAT ONE statistic should give grave cause for concern....

I think you're clutching at straws really.

think what you like dearie....

having read many of your posts (drivel) I think YOU are a mean minded sociopathic racist, with the empathy of a dead hamster, the brains of the "bugblatter beast of trall" (go look it up), and the commonsense of a squashed toad....

but hey...thats just my opinion

darknessss wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I think you're clutching at straws really.

think what you like dearie....

having read many of your posts (drivel) I think YOU are a mean minded sociopathic racist, with the empathy of a dead hamster, the brains of the "bugblatter beast of trall" (go look it up), and the commonsense of a squashed toad....

but hey...thats just my opinion

You're clearly barking mad - and that's a fact.

Tad harsh vic

Rags is a good poster actually, don't always agree iwith her but she has her own mind and I like that

possibly ...but at least I dont value my car over the life of a fellow human

anyway....the car is insured....

eddie wrote:Tad harsh vic

Rags is a good poster actually, don't always agree iwith her but she has her own mind and I like that

whatever you do dont offer a swap eddie......

darknessss wrote:possibly ...but at least I dont value my car over the life of a fellow human

anyway....the car is insured....

I think you missed the point. The point is that people were rioting and damaging property, committing arson, and harming people who had done nothing wrong. You clearly think that's fine, which makes you a bit mad.

darknessss wrote:

eddie wrote:Tad harsh vic

Rags is a good poster actually, don't always agree iwith her but she has her own mind and I like that

whatever you do dont offer a swap eddie......

Who'd want mine? I'm stooopid

eddie wrote:Tad harsh vic

Rags is a good poster actually, don't always agree iwith her but she has her own mind and I like that

Thank you eddie.

eddie wrote:

darknessss wrote:

whatever you do dont offer a swap eddie......

Who'd want mine? I'm stooopid

yeah but you have got a good heart (and perky tits)

(so I've heard)

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:Tad harsh vic

Rags is a good poster actually, don't always agree iwith her but she has her own mind and I like that

Thank you eddie.

I only say what I see rags and you're an independent

eddie wrote:No they're called bounty bars

My dad was the opposite of that.

Took me a while on that, we don't have Bounty Bars here -- the U.S. equivalent would be "Oreo."





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKXIFfwuEpU

Ben_Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:No they're called bounty bars

My dad was the opposite of that.

Took me a while on that, we don't have Bounty Bars here -- the U.S. equivalent would be "Oreo."





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKXIFfwuEpU

The use of the word 'coconut' is that context is considered a bit dodgy over here.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/28/councillor-court-coconut-jibe-bristol

An Oreo would work
My kids love them but I keep expecting the insides to taste like coconut and they never do.

eddie wrote:But the question remains; can a black police man be accused of a racist assault against a black man?

the answer is YES they can but

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS
the point is the institution is inherently racist we can see this with the police stops in some parts of the USA you are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped just because you are black. it is something like 10 times more likely that when they stop you they will draw their weapons in you are black.
More stops with more weapons draw ends up with more black men dead.

Plus a lot of it is probably not racism as much as class-ism these people are all poor with no hope of decent legal representation. the police feel that they can get away with treating them unfairly.

you cant look at the numbers and not say there is something really wrong with law enforcement currently in the USA

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:But the question remains; can a black police man be accused of a racist assault against a black man?

the answer is YES they can but

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS
the point is the institution is inherently racist we can see this with the police stops in some parts of the USA you are 4 or 5 times more likely to be stopped just because you are black. it is something like 10 times more likely that when they stop you they will draw their weapons in you are black.
More stops with more weapons draw ends up with more black men dead.

Plus a lot of it is probably not racism as much as class-ism these people are all poor with no hope of decent legal representation. the police feel that they can get away with treating them unfairly.

you cant look at the numbers and not say there is something really wrong with law enforcement currently in the USA

An institution is made up of individuals though. It seems to me that this is about police brutality rather than anything else.

it is police brutality
it is really a Justice system problem in that they have no Justice in their system

saying it is just racism is not right either racism is just one of several factors that are causing this.

There is a very simple answer. When it comes to policing black males, the police themselves have only one color: blue. Regardless of the race of the cop, he is going to follow orders. Did you notice that one of the white cops was a Lieutenant?

The police operate as a unit...hence the term they are only blue. If a particular department is racist--and most are--any given individual within the department is going to follow the norm. Black on black discrimination is well documented. It all comes from the same source: the white superior officer.

'Black on black' discrimination has been recognized in the court's for years (indeed, I won a multi-million $$ suit against a bank, where a black manager discriminated against two black loan officers). Generally, the offending black superior is acting on orders of white management, or is trying to please white superiors. Quite common.

@quill
well there is more than racism causing the root of the issues

gap between rich and poor, substandard education, poor housing, no-poverty protection, much higher rates of unemployment even when educated,
a violent gun wielding society

the USA is setup to screw the poor into slavery and most blacks tend to be poor, i don't think that is an accident

I think it's a complex multi-level feedback loop of oppression that works different ways on different people. The wealthy manipulate society into believing certain negative stereotypes about the underclass of the day, using such ideas both to enforce oppression and to make some among the oppressed try to defy the stereotypes by acting the way the wealthy prefer. Others, of course, take the stereotypes about themselves to heart.

The ones who have it worst are those who neither believe the stereotypes nor support the power structure. They tend to get shot.

Ok so it seems to me that black on black is more a class thing than a racist thing - obviously, as you can't be racist against your own race??

So if white officers are heavy handed with a white person, is that because they're racist?

eddie wrote:Ok so it seems to me that black on black is more a class thing than a racist thing - obviously, as you can't be racist against your own race??

It seems to me that the police in the US really don't like anyone who doesn't do as they're told, anyone who tries to run away from them, or anyone who get mouthy. I watched a video of a woman being chucked on the floor by police officers, which resulted in facial injuries, and it seems to be because she got mouthy with them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056168/Megan-Sheehan-left-scarred-life-Oakland-BART-cops-grabbed-arms-slammed-ground-face-uncooperative.html

eddie wrote:Ok so it seems to me that black on black is more a class thing than a racist thing - obviously, as you can't be racist against your own race??

First impression: I think there is a lot to that...but not just the black-on-black part.  Racism can be viewed as a sort of 'class' stratification, with blacks always and inevitably at the bottom.  Likewise, from the opposite angle, 'class' stratification in America borrows from race to fill out its bottom ranks.

The American south in the 1800's was a three-tier thing, with plantation/land owners at the top, foreman and overseers in the middle (mostly Scots and Irish) and blacks at the lowest level.  That is the same system that racist America has always tried to perpetuate, from post-Civil War, to 'Separate but Equal', to Segregation, to the present stealthy racism we have today.  It does share a lot with class stratification.

The point is that race does not stand alone as a factor.  Racism is an evil because it imposes social ostracism such as poverty, ghettos, lack of educational opportunity, lack of employment opportunity, police oppression, political suppression and a myriad of what we might call 'class' or economic oppressions on black people.

Otherwise racism would be just tension at a cocktail party.

Raggamuffin wrote:So if white officers are heavy handed with a white person, is that because they're racist?

No, because that is not a part of the cultural history which defines racism.  To be sure, there are many whites with bad attitudes--hillbillies that get drunk and beat their wives, rob 7/11's or are just unpleasant personalities around the water cooler--but we don't associate that with racism because there is no racial causative element.  There is no history of racism, slavery or social ostracism in the white-on-white situation.

As I was saying to eds above, there are social and economic elements around racism, but race must have been a part of the unique cultural mind and history in order to be a cause.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:Ok so it seems to me that black on black is more a class thing than a racist thing - obviously, as you can't be racist against your own race??

It seems to me that the police in the US really don't like anyone who doesn't do as they're told, anyone who tries to run away from them, or anyone who get mouthy. I watched a video of a woman being chucked on the floor by police officers, which resulted in facial injuries, and it seems to be because she got mouthy with them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056168/Megan-Sheehan-left-scarred-life-Oakland-BART-cops-grabbed-arms-slammed-ground-face-uncooperative.html

Yes, American police are authoritarian.  The authoritarian personality is characterized as dogmatic, vertical and militaristic.  See,  Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sanford, The Authoritarian Personality (1950),  I taught police seeking university degrees at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in NYC, and at the Arizona Academy at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  There are a thousand different interpersonal encounters/antidotes--being in a position of authority around cops--that I could relate.  Let me just say that it is true, the American police live in a world in which they are both oppressors and victims...largely due to the authoritarian ideology that surrounds them.

The American policeman, modernly, is largely the product of WWII.  You might say that modern police science came into being in the ranks of the military police during WWII, and a lot of those men and women came back and got jobs in American cities.  They shaped the character of American police departments around the country for decades.  They also heavily reflected the military personality of the time: segregated ranks, vertical command structure, subservient to those above, and injunctive and demanding over those below.  You see a lot of that still around today.

Two police departments in California--the most populous state in the US--that are a constant source of concern are the Oakland PD and the Los Angeles PD.  Both have a history of corruption and intolerance, not to mention illegal activities.  In fact, the Oakland PD is now under federal injunction and being run, in effect, by a Federal District Judge.

The police department of the Bar Area Rapid Transit (BART) District is strongly influenced by Oakland PD, and has been involved in more than its share of mishaps.  Oscar Grant was fatally shot by BART Police officer Johannes Mehserle in Oakland, California, United States, in the early morning hours of New Year's Day 2009.  They have made a movie about it.  You cite one case involving BART (the Sheehan case), you might take a look at Grant's case.  Note it is (once again) a black man that is killed.

eddie wrote:
Well according to lone wolf I'm a thick cow anyway lol

Realising that you have a problem is the 'first step' towards addressing that problem...

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:
It seems to me that the police in the US really don't like anyone who doesn't do as they're told, anyone who tries to run away from them, or anyone who get mouthy. I watched a video of a woman being chucked on the floor by police officers, which resulted in facial injuries, and it seems to be because she got mouthy with them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056168/Megan-Sheehan-left-scarred-life-Oakland-BART-cops-grabbed-arms-slammed-ground-face-uncooperative.html

Yes, American police are authoritarian.  The authoritarian personality is characterized as dogmatic, vertical and militaristic.  See,  Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sanford, The Authoritarian Personality (1950),  I taught police seeking university degrees at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in NYC, and at the Arizona Academy at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  There are a thousand different interpersonal encounters/antidotes--being in a position of authority around cops--that I could relate.  Let me just say that it is true, the American police live in a world in which they are both oppressors and victims...largely due to the authoritarian ideology that surrounds them.

........................

  THESE issues - and all good points that they are - clearly demonstrate just why the police have increasingly been referred to as "pigs, dogs, scum, bastards, and corrupt mongrels" since the 1960s and '70s...

AND it's a worldwide problem, too, as many police forces in many countries - from Australia, Britain, China, France, Russia, through to Egypt, South Africa, Mexico, Iran or Bali, and many points in between - seem to take encouragement and solace from what their 'brother' cops in other places manage to get away with..

AND then those same recalcitrant and arrogant pigs wonder why so many ordinary and everyday law-abiding citizens disapprove of their clearly wrongful actions these days ~ and the all-too-frequent 'institutionalised coverups' that often follow their criminal acts.  Well demonstrated by the actions of the Baltimore Police union chapter being so quick as to immediately begin raising funds to defend their fellow officers..

THOUGH at the same time, they do still have their rabid fans. AS with Tommy M.'s whacky declaration last week that only guilty people run ~ so if you're unfortunate enough as to be seen running, you must automatically be a bad person ~ and therefore police are perfectly justified in shooting you in the back in cold blood !!!
[BOTH regular runners, and those occasional runners the likes of Didge and LD better watch out if Tommy or any of his rogue cop chums are in the vicinity !].