How big a check should I have to write?

And while the Biden administration has announced plans of an executive order for advancing racial equity and support for underserved communities, the specifics of restitution owed to Black Americans by the U.S. government remains entangled in a web of “what ifs?” and “what about?”

156 years after the legal ending of slavery and America still cannot seem to get beyond the exploratory phase of recompense. A modest estimate of the 2021 equivalent of the 40 acres and a mule promised to former slaves is upwards of $12 trillion or roughly $252, 782 to every descendant of an enslaved person. For several decades conversations around the dispersion of funds have alternated between educational vouchers, home financing or cash payouts.

It is still all talk.

Rep. Jackon-Lee reintroduced H.R. 40 at the top of January to create a commission to explore reparations. Supporters of the bill believe it to be a good measure of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris’s commitment to combatting systemic inequity.

“Given the role that Black people played in the election, getting him nominated and saving his campaign — there’s no reason they shouldn’t support this bill,” Mary Frances Berry, a professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania said to NBC News.

One would think that the show-of-force by the Black vote would prompt the Biden administration to move beyond the exploration of a commission, but if it does not, it sure as hell wouldn’t be the first time the Democratic Party gave Black voters a slither of hope that resulted in inaction.


https://www.thenorthstar.com/when-will-we-move-beyond-merely-exploring-the-idea-of-reparations/?fbclid=IwAR1-h7AvQEey4xT1YVz1uF9RQqptMQpni5PV8lxKGAplIBj37cOt5JiOOTk


Probably should try to get the slave trading nation of Great Britain to kick in a little too.

My black Muslim mate Abdul has often told me that his family is from Zanzibar and that they made their money in the save trade...


The overwhelming vast majority of Brits were peasants and pretty much just slaves to the wealthier classes here during that time too, which is why so many of us, who could, left here to go to America and start a new life back in the day...

Tommy Monk wrote:



My black Muslim mate Abdul has often told me that his family is from Zanzibar and that they made their money in the save trade...


The overwhelming vast majority of Brits were peasants and pretty much just slaves to the wealthier classes here during that time too, which is why so many of us, who could, left here to go to America and start a new life back in the day...

You're just being selfish.

As are all of the Americans that came here 100 years after the slave trade ended, who should feel enough guilt to pay reparations.

And surely you don't think people that sold their fellow Africans should be held accountable, but only those who purchased slaves.

Don't forget that plenty of blacks in America during slavery were slave owners/traders themselves...


And that many of the black slaves had their own slave women for sex during that time too...

Tommy Monk wrote:Don't forget that plenty of blacks in America during slavery were slave owners/traders themselves...

And that many of the black slaves had their own slave women for sex during that time too...

The Root wrote:In 1830, the year most carefully studied by Carter G. Woodson, about 13.7 percent (319,599) of the black population was free. Of these, 3,776 free Negroes owned 12,907 slaves, out of a total of 2,009,043 slaves owned in the entire United States, so the numbers of slaves owned by black people over all was quite small by comparison with the number owned by white people. In his essay, " 'The Known World' of Free Black Slaveholders," Thomas J. Pressly, using Woodson's statistics, calculated that 54 (or about 1 percent) of these black slave owners in 1830 owned between 20 and 84 slaves; 172 (about 4 percent) owned between 10 to 19 slaves; and 3,550 (about 94 percent) each owned between 1 and 9 slaves. Crucially, 42 percent owned just one slave.  https://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436

When an African slave was granted freedom, the most common thing he did was attempt to buy freedom for his family members.  These became added to the statistics, somewhat skewing the meaning.  While there were some slave traders, there were very few who actually traded in slaves.  Most were trying to extricate their loved ones. As you can see, the overwhelming number of them (94%) owned under 10 people, most likely family members.

However... The number of black slaves owned by Muslims and other blacks in the rest of the world is massive in comparison...


And don't forget the number of black slaves who had their own slave women for sexual abuse...

Tommy Monk wrote:


However... The number of black slaves owned by Muslims and other blacks in the rest of the world is massive in comparison...


And don't forget the number of black slaves who had their own slave women for sexual abuse...

If you go back far enough we can all find ancestors that were victims and perpetrators of all sorts of activities that we would presently find distasteful.

It's called presentism and it's an exercise in futility.

Tommy Monk wrote:However... The number of black slaves owned by Muslims and other blacks in the rest of the world is massive in comparison...

That is a different social problem, with different socio-economic reasons.  Cross-Atlantic slavery may seem the same, but only because the consequence is the same (captivity/forced labor).  Otherwise, it's a different problem, with different origins altogether.

Tommy Monk wrote:And don't forget the number of black slaves who had their own slave women for sexual abuse...

Oh, you mean when they bought freedom for their wives?  The mother of their children?  Sex is not always abuse.  When sex created you, tommy, were your parents abusing each other?

This is a classic case of twisted meaning, creating a totally different interpretation.  Blacks used slaveholding and slave markets to extricate their loved ones from slavery; they had no choice...their wives and children were chattel, and could only be freed through purchase.  Nowhere does that mean "sexual abuse", as you suggest.  It was an act of love, and mutual affection that had grown even under the worst of human conditions.

No... I'm talking about black slaves who had worn sex slaves... Many were Japanese women...

Tommy Monk wrote:No... I'm talking about black slaves who had worn sex slaves... Many were Japanese women...

I'm not familiar with that part of history. Do you have a link?

I am pretty familiar with the cross-Atlantic slave trade as it relates to the US, however, and it did not involve large groups of blacks owning slaves solely for sex.

Regardless of who enslaved who, it's obvious by this thread that it's going to be very difficult to figure out who should be writing checks and who should be receiving them.

Take Obama. Based on his lineage, I guess he would be writing half a check?

Maddog wrote:Regardless of who enslaved who, it's obvious by this thread that it's going to be very difficult to figure out who should be writing checks and who should be receiving them.

Take Obama. Based on his lineage, I guess he would be writing half a check?

We have a formula for that. The greater question is what form should the remedy take? I think that merely writing a check would be useless. Throwing money after a problem is a Republican trick, to distance themselves from the problem, and any understanding of the same...it usually ends in disaster.

As a nation we need to involves ourselves in the issue, understand the dynamics, and together formulate the remedy. That way, as we go along, we can increase the awareness of how we got into this problem. We formulate our attitude to more healthy goals.

I think we are doing it properly, if slowly: universities have to put a premium on black education, and black curricula. It must also drop down into the high schools and even middle-schools. Advertisers have to stop creating depictions of America's way of life as being white, suburban, and non-mixed. We need to identify other media that promote and steer attitudes, to make them more equitable. To stand still is to stagnate.

That is what I mean by a group effort. It doesn't take money. It takes involvement. A substantial part of our nation, not only does not try, but stands and works against this kind of progress. We saw this in Charlottesville, and again on 1/6. For that part, there is no hope. We’ve got to cut them loose and let them choose for themselves their own lifestyle. Amexit.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:Regardless of who enslaved who, it's obvious by this thread that it's going to be very difficult to figure out who should be writing checks and who should be receiving them.

Take Obama. Based on his lineage, I guess he would be writing half a check?  

We have a formula for that.  The greater question is what form should the remedy take?  I think that merely writing a check would be useless.  Throwing money after a problem is a Republican trick, to distance themselves from the problem, and any understanding of the same...it usually ends in disaster.

As a nation we need to involves ourselves in the issue, understand the dynamics, and together formulate the remedy.  That way, as we go along, we can increase the awareness of how we got into this problem.  We formulate our attitude to more healthy goals.

I think we are doing it properly, if slowly: universities have to put a premium on black education, and black curricula.  It must also drop down into the high schools and even middle-schools.  Advertisers have to stop creating depictions of America's way of life as being white, suburban, and non-mixed.  We need to identify other media that promote and steer attitudes, to make them more equitable.  To stand still is to stagnate.

That is what I mean by a group effort.  It doesn't take money.  It takes involvement.  A substantial part of our nation, not only does not try, but stands and works against this kind of progress.  We saw this in Charlottesville, and again on 1/6.  For that part, there is no hope.  We’ve got to cut them loose and let them choose for themselves their own lifestyle.  Amexit.

Do you know who runs The Northstar?

Do you mean North Star? https://www.thenorthstar.com/

Otherwise, it's a ski resort in northern California. https://welkresorts.com/ca/lake-tahoe/northstar-lodge

Was there different grades of slave? Was it better or worse being a Roman slave than a Atlantic slave, were Viking slaves better off or worse off than those taken by Barbary pirates. Where those taken by Muslim traders better or worse off than those enslaved by
their own or neighbouring tribes in Africa. I see little to differentiate.
Surely the basics are the same for all slaves historic or modern.

Vintage wrote:Was there different grades of slave? Was it better or worse being a Roman slave than a  Atlantic slave, were Viking slaves better off or worse off than those taken by Barbary pirates. Where those taken by Muslim traders better or worse off than those enslaved by
their own or neighbouring tribes in Africa. I see little to differentiate.
Surely the basics are the same for all slaves historic or modern.

...or, was slavery that occurred all over the world, the same as workers in factories today?  Marx appears to think so.  The tethers are non-existent, but they hold just as well.  A work schedule tells you what days you have to work.  A timeclock tells you when massa wants you in the fields.  The assembly line dictates what tasks you will perform.  You get the picture.

You can expand that thesis, or narrow it down, depending on what is your focus.  If we were doing a survey of involuntary servitude we might be as inclusive as possible.  It depends on your interests, and the kind of study that is involved.

Americans are likely more interested in the cross-Atlantic slavery, because that is the kind of slavery, the vestiges of which are still with us today.  There is a direct lineage.  The attitudes and practices are the same, as are the entailments which fit with practices we have with us today.

But, that is not to say that there are not anthropologists that are interested in the cultures that used slavery, and the economic practices they engendered.

Original Quill wrote:

Vintage wrote:Was there different grades of slave? Was it better or worse being a Roman slave than a  Atlantic slave, were Viking slaves better off or worse off than those taken by Barbary pirates. Where those taken by Muslim traders better or worse off than those enslaved by
their own or neighbouring tribes in Africa. I see little to differentiate.
Surely the basics are the same for all slaves historic or modern.

...or, was slavery that occurred all over the world, the same as workers in factories today?  Marx appears to think so.  The tethers are non-existent, but they hold just as well.  A work schedule tells you what days you have to work.  A timeclock tells you when massa wants you in the fields.  The assembly line dictates what tasks you will perform.  You get the picture.

You can expand that thesis, or narrow it down, depending on what is your focus.  If we were doing a survey of involuntary servitude we might be as inclusive as possible.  It depends on your interests, and the kind of study that is involved.

Americans are likely more interested in the cross-Atlantic slavery, because that is the kind of slavery, the vestiges of which are still with us today.  There is a direct lineage.  The attitudes and practices are the same, as are the entailments which fit with practices we have with us today.

But, that is not to say that there are not anthropologists that are interested in the cultures that used slavery, and the economic practices they engendered.

Or is the oppression we feel from oppressive governments slavery?

Is the N Korean as much of a slave as the Swede working for Volvo?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

...or, was slavery that occurred all over the world, the same as workers in factories today? Marx appears to think so. The tethers are non-existent, but they hold just as well. A work schedule tells you what days you have to work. A timeclock tells you when massa wants you in the fields. The assembly line dictates what tasks you will perform. You get the picture.

You can expand that thesis, or narrow it down, depending on what is your focus. If we were doing a survey of involuntary servitude we might be as inclusive as possible. It depends on your interests, and the kind of study that is involved.

Americans are likely more interested in the cross-Atlantic slavery, because that is the kind of slavery, the vestiges of which are still with us today. There is a direct lineage. The attitudes and practices are the same, as are the entailments which fit with practices we have with us today.

But, that is not to say that there are not anthropologists that are interested in the cultures that used slavery, and the economic practices they engendered.

Or is the oppression we feel from oppressive governments slavery?

Is the N Korean as much of a slave as the Swede working for Volvo?

I wrote the above to prove that there are many forms of slavery, and it still goes on in a capitalist world. When, during the Industrial Revolution, simple shop tools became whole factories, an accumulation of money was necessary to buy them. Capitalists with no more contribution than a thick wallet, stepped in and took over.

Notice I said two things: 1) that the capitalists stepped in; and 2) that they took over. By these two things, they called the shots and relegated the worker to slavery, all over again. It's entirely unnecessary, as socialism proves. Capitalists are simply parasites on the system, and they comprise the fourth, unnecessary mouth to feed.

The 400-years of abject slavery that took place in the American south, relegated the workers to actual slaves, but that is the only difference. The sin is in arranging things to remove agency from the people who, hands on, actually do production. Slavery and modern workers are actually the same people, to different degrees, as Karl Marx so effectively pointed out in Das Kapital.

The point is: if you want to broaden the discussion to all forms of slavery, you can't escape the modern Industrial Revolution. I proved that broad or narrow, it depends on what you want to talk about. Slavery is simply getting another to do your work for you.

American slavery still persists, with so many variations that southerners have devised to continue it. It is a subject of study on its own.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Or is the oppression we feel from oppressive governments slavery?  

Is the N Korean as much of a slave as the Swede working for Volvo?

I wrote the above to prove that there are many forms of slavery, and it still goes on in a capitalist world.  When, during the Industrial Revolution, simple shop tools became whole factories, an accumulation of money was necessary to buy them.  Capitalists with no more contribution than a thick wallet, stepped in and took over.

Notice I said two things: 1) that the capitalists stepped in; and 2) that they took over.  By these two things, they called the shots and relegated the worker to slavery, all over again.  It's entirely unnecessary, as socialism proves.  Capitalists are simply parasites on the system, and they comprise the fourth, unnecessary mouth to feed.

The 400-years of abject slavery that took place in the American south, relegated the workers to actual slaves, but that is the only difference.  The sin is in arranging things to remove agency from the people who, hands on, actually do production.  Slavery and modern workers are actually the same people, to different degrees, as Karl Marx so effectively pointed out in Das Kapital.

The point is: if you want to broaden the discussion to all forms of slavery, you can't escape the modern Industrial Revolution.  I proved that broad or narrow, it depends on what you want to talk about.  Slavery is simply getting another to do your work for you.

American slavery still persists, with so many variations that southerners have devised to continue it.  It is a subject of study on its own.

You wrote it to deflect.

Nonsense.  Posters wanted to broaden the topic to include other forms of slavery.  I accommodated them.  

Original Quill wrote:Nonsense.  Posters wanted to broaden the topic.

Posters?

Now you speak for other posters?

They raised the subject. I responded.

Btw, we can still talk about American slavery.  I'm not stopping you.  But you seem reluctant...out of gas?

Original Quill wrote:They raised the subject.  I responded.

Btw, we can still talk about American slavery.  I'm not stopping you.  But you seem reluctant...out of gas?

You can talk about the Ming Dynasty for all I care.

I'll continue to remind you how full of shit you are.

Your call.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:They raised the subject.  I responded.

Btw, we can still talk about American slavery.  I'm not stopping you.  But you seem reluctant...out of gas?

You can talk about the Ming Dynasty for all I care.  

I'll continue to remind you how full of shit you are.  

Your call.  

Boring. If you want to talk about the subject, I'm in. But it's of no interest to me if you have a personal problem with a poster.

Get back to me when you want to address a topic.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

You can talk about the Ming Dynasty for all I care.  

I'll continue to remind you how full of shit you are.  

Your call.  

Boring.  If you want to talk about the subject, I'm in.  But it's of no interest to me if you have a personal problem with a poster.

Get back to me when you want to address a topic.

When the poster spews nonsense about a topic, that becomes part of the topic.  

Sorry that you can't grasp that concept.

It's like when Trump constantly made up shit.  His bullshit became part of the conversation.  The fact that he was dishonest became part of the conversation.  

You're just another Trump with a different set of lies and bullshit.  

And I'll continue to call you out.