Democrats vs Republicans

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Ownership means you have a bundle of rights too. I dont consider nationalized systems like fascism to really have private ownership. I also dont think fascism is the same as socialism, even though both can be oppressive to people who support the private ownership of businesses.  

I think 'Nationalist' is a better word than 'nationalised' when describing fascism. Sure some services can be nationalised in fascism (as they are in capitalist social democracies in Europe), but the idea of everything being owned by the people/state doesn't exist in the same way.

I agree, they are not the same. Nearly all political ideologies can lead to oppression though, it is just a matter of who ends up being oppressed (in Victorian Britain it was the British working class, we've exported the oppression to sweat shops throughout the third world now).

Fascism at its core is an ideology based on promoting the nation above all else and supporting the 'establishment' (including corporate interests) who want to maintain traditions, strength etc. It differs from socialism in who is seeks to protect, how it deals with private ownership and its main goal (national superiority vs equality for the people).

I think fascism is awful. I also think socialism in its purist form is unworkable. But tommy conflating them is just another demonstration of lack of understanding on his part.

If any system which involves any amount of nationalisation, or regulation, is basically 'socialism' then every system but pure unrestrained capitalism is a form of socialism

Yeah, oftentimes, especially here, any form of regulation someone doesnt like is called socialism.  

Socialism is social ownership. I'm actually not opposed as long as private ownership isn't banned.  That's where the problem starts. Socially owned businesses and industries can't compete and they use the government to "help" them compete. Or they just ban private ownership. That's when I have a problem.  

Tommy Monk wrote:


Les is confusing his own woolly idealistic view on what a nice happy clappy version of socialism 'should be'... with the reality of what socialism (and communism) really was back in the day...


He seems to be of the belief that all socialists are nice peaceful hippy type people who would rather sit round in a circle doing meditation and strumming guitars and playing bongos and making daisy chain necklaces for each other etc... And that anyone behaving in a more aggressive and authoritarianist way to enact their political ideals, must be somehow 'right wing' and nasty so not left wing/socialism at all...!


He clearly has no idea what he is waffling on about...

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yeah, oftentimes, especially here, any form of regulation someone doesnt like is called socialism.  

Socialism is social ownership. I'm actually not opposed as long as private ownership isn't banned.  That's where the problem starts. Socially owned businesses and industries can't compete and they use the government to "help" them compete. Or they just ban private ownership. That's when I have a problem.  

I'd always oppose completely banning private ownership, I just think some public services should be state owned, everything else is for the markets.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yeah, oftentimes, especially here, any form of regulation someone doesnt like is called socialism.  

Socialism is social ownership. I'm actually not opposed as long as private ownership isn't banned.  That's where the problem starts. Socially owned businesses and industries can't compete and they use the government to "help" them compete. Or they just ban private ownership. That's when I have a problem.  

I'd always oppose completely banning private ownership, I just think some public services should be state owned, everything else is for the markets.

Which really makes you a capitalist as I imagine you want to fund those public services by taxing income and earnings.

I'm guessing you like the Nordic model which is capitalism with a more robust welfare state. I don't even think the Nordic countries really have more state owned public services than the US. They know where the golden eggs that fund their system come from, and it's profitable private companies that can pay their people well.

The Nordic model is significantly different than say the model embraced by the Democratic Socialists of America.  

Maddog wrote:"Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives."

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

This is the problem with the DSA, not that most people really have a clue what they support.

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Which really makes you a capitalist as I imagine you want to fund those public services by taxing income and earnings.

I'm guessing you like the Nordic model which is capitalism with a more robust welfare state. I don't even think the Nordic countries really have more state owned public services than the US. They know where the golden eggs that fund their system come from, and it's profitable private companies that can pay their people well.

The Nordic model is significantly different than say the model embraced by the Democratic Socialists of America.  

They are Social Democracies, which are capitalist market economies but with some public ownership and a lot of regulation. I totally support that kind of system (though it is imperfect, but there is no perfect system).

The problem I see in America is whenever someone even hints at more government involvement in anything there is a loud contingent who scream 'socialism'. If everything is socialism then the word loses meaning (which is also mr monk's problem lol).

Maddog wrote:https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=30

The US used to be #1 on this list. We are now #17. Below Denmark and not much better than Sweden.

Tommy Monk wrote:



https://www.britannica.com/topic/third-way

Tommy Monk wrote:



Are you asking me to explain how fascism is in any way like your imaginary woolly rose tinted happy clappy non existent dream land version of socialism...!?


That is impossible because your delusional version of socialism has never existed...

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=30

The US used to be #1 on this list. We are now #17. Below Denmark and not much better than Sweden.

Those stats make it even more bizarre that many in the US still refer to Nordic countries as 'socialist' AND still can't have socialised health care.

Almost like powerful vested interests are using smear tactics to prevent any kind of health care reform

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=30

The US used to be #1 on this list. We are now #17. Below Denmark and not much better than Sweden.

Those stats make it even more bizarre that many in the US still refer to Nordic countries as 'socialist' AND still can't have socialised health care.

Almost like powerful vested interests are using smear tactics to prevent any kind of health care reform

The Nordic countries don't have British style healthcare.  Its funded at the local level, like our county hospitals.  It's just that pretty much everyone uses the county hospitals, not just the poor, like here.  

I don't refer to those countries as socialist,  but many on the right and left do.  

The Nordic countries have got a fairly good system to be honest. They are very pro business, and tax their business at a very low rate so that they can be globally competitive. Most don't even have a minimum wage yet workers are paid very well. Because of those high wages workers pay a great deal of taxes.  

It's really a pretty good system and my only problem with it is the high level of taxation. But to be fair, it's not that much higher than the US, because our government wastes so much money on the military and by being inefficient. The Nordic countries seem better focused on doing a few things very well. Sorta like we were decades ago.  

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Nordic countries don't have British style healthcare.  Its funded at the local level, like our county hospitals.  It's just that pretty much everyone uses the county hospitals, not just the poor, like here.  

I don't refer to those countries as socialist,  but many on the right and left do.  

The Nordic countries have got a fairly good system to be honest. They are very pro business, and tax their business at a very low rate so that they can be globally competitive. Most don't even have a minimum wage yet workers are paid very well. Because of those high wages workers pay a great deal of taxes.  

It's really a pretty good system and my only problem with it is the high level of taxation. But to be fair, it's not that much higher than the US, because our government wastes so much money on the military and by being inefficient. The Nordic countries seem better focused on doing a few things very well. Sorta like we were decades ago.  

University is also free in those countries. And funded at the local level is still socialised. A Swedish Youtuber I watch (not Pewdiepie lol) says he likes their taxation system as it helps those less well off and he never needs to worry about healthcare etc. He is in the highest bracket.

I agree, their systems are good. But putting those tax rates to British or US tax payers would be electoral madness.

Norway is a bit exceptional with their cash from North Sea Oil though.

Tommy Monk wrote:


Les, waffling on about Nordic countries hasn't addressed anything I've said...


You said fascism has nothing to do with socialism because a few private companies made a lot of money during this time... Then you waffle on about Nordic countries where 70% of people work in private companies and you try to portray these systems as socialism...


You can't have it both ways...!

gelico wrote:

seen huge amounts of black Democrats walking away and saying they are now voting for Trump simply due to all the violence, destruction and hatred coming from the left.  riots from blm setting fire to black owned businesses.

whatever the policies are, people are disgusted and can see more and more what the dems really seem to stand for

chaos, disorder, hatred.

the pictures coming out of california are shocking and they have the gall to blame trump

he's gonna get a landslide victory and they'll have no one to blame but themselves,,,,but they wont.


so sad

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Nordic countries don't have British style healthcare.  Its funded at the local level, like our county hospitals.  It's just that pretty much everyone uses the county hospitals, not just the poor, like here.  

I don't refer to those countries as socialist,  but many on the right and left do.  

The Nordic countries have got a fairly good system to be honest. They are very pro business, and tax their business at a very low rate so that they can be globally competitive. Most don't even have a minimum wage yet workers are paid very well. Because of those high wages workers pay a great deal of taxes.  

It's really a pretty good system and my only problem with it is the high level of taxation. But to be fair, it's not that much higher than the US, because our government wastes so much money on the military and by being inefficient. The Nordic countries seem better focused on doing a few things very well. Sorta like we were decades ago.  

University is also free in those countries. And funded at the local level is still socialised. A Swedish Youtuber I watch (not Pewdiepie lol) says he likes their taxation system as it helps those less well off and he never needs to worry about healthcare etc. He is in the highest bracket.

I agree, their systems are good. But putting those tax rates to British or US tax payers would be electoral madness.

Norway is a bit exceptional with their cash from North Sea Oil though.

Yeah, but Norway knows that cash cow is soon to be history and s preparing for it. The US would have spent every dime and then some.  

I guess I can be thankful I don't live in Venezuela. Talk about fucking up a cash cow.  

Tommy Monk wrote:


You don't know why you're waffling about. .

Maddog wrote:Tommy, do you believe facism is a right wing form of socialism or that fascism is actually left wing?

Or do you just not buy into the left-right wing argument at all?

Eilzel wrote:

gelico wrote:

seen huge amounts of black Democrats walking away and saying they are now voting for Trump simply due to all the violence, destruction and hatred coming from the left.  riots from blm setting fire to black owned businesses.

whatever the policies are, people are disgusted and can see more and more what the dems really seem to stand for

chaos, disorder, hatred.

the pictures coming out of california are shocking and they have the gall to blame trump

he's gonna get a landslide victory and they'll have no one to blame but themselves,,,,but they wont.


so sad

The race has certainly tightened. Largely because people have swallowed the inane that 'if you want to end the current chaos of Trump's America, you should vote for 4 more years of Trump'

gelico wrote:

Maddog wrote:Tommy, do you believe facism is a right wing form of socialism or that fascism is actually left wing?

Or do you just not buy into the left-right wing argument at all?

hi maddog

dont all ideologies kind of overlap and intermingle on certain issues?

Maddog wrote:Tommy, do you believe facism is a right wing form of socialism or that fascism is actually left wing?

Or do you just not buy into the left-right wing argument at all?

gelico wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

gelico wrote:

seen huge amounts of black Democrats walking away and saying they are now voting for Trump simply due to all the violence, destruction and hatred coming from the left.  riots from blm setting fire to black owned businesses.

whatever the policies are, people are disgusted and can see more and more what the dems really seem to stand for

chaos, disorder, hatred.

the pictures coming out of california are shocking and they have the gall to blame trump

he's gonna get a landslide victory and they'll have no one to blame but themselves,,,,but they wont.


so sad

The race has certainly tightened. Largely because people have swallowed the inane that 'if you want to end the current chaos of Trump's America, you should vote for 4 more years of Trump'

that doesn't address my comments at all.  i have no idea what your post even means

Tommy Monk wrote:


I totally get what you're saying gelico...!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:Tommy, do you believe facism is a right wing form of socialism or that fascism is actually left wing?

Or do you just not buy into the left-right wing argument at all?

I believe fascism and Nazism were forms of authoritarianist left wing national/state socialism.


It is true that some companies were left in private ownership but they were heavily controlled by the state and effectively reduced to being merely state run managers of these companies...


The state controlled means of production and even prices... So any appearance of capitalism was merely a very thin veneer...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:Tommy, do you believe facism is a right wing form of socialism or that fascism is actually left wing?

Or do you just not buy into the left-right wing argument at all?

I believe fascism and Nazism were forms of authoritarianist left wing national/state socialism.


It is true that some companies were left in private ownership but they were heavily controlled by the state and effectively reduced to being merely state run managers of these companies...


The state controlled means of production and even prices... So any appearance of capitalism was merely a very thin veneer...