Austrian police force women to uncover their faces as country's 'burka ban' comes into force

First topic message reminder :

A Muslim woman was forced to remove her veil today as the ban on full-face veils came into force in Austria.
Items concealing the face in public places, such as the full Islamic veil, medical masks and scarves to cover faces have been outlawed.
Only under certain conditions, such as 'at cultural events', will people be able to wear them in public.
The laws are aimed at 'ensuring the cohesion of society in an open society' and anyone violating the rules could be hit with a €150 fine.

On Sunday, a Muslim woman defying the rule was spotted being told to remove her veil in the town of Zell am See.
In a ruling announcing the ban, officials in Vienna said: 'Acceptance and respect of Austrian values are basic conditions for successful cohabitation between the majority Austrian population and people from third countries living in Austria.'
The measures, similar to those in other European Union countries, also apply to visitors even though large numbers of Arab tourists holiday in the Alpine country.

How the burqa ban has divided opinion across Europe

There is no law restricting the wearing of garments for religious reasons.
However in March 2007 the education ministry published directives allowing directors of public establishments and denominational schools to ban the niqab veil.

Judges have on occasion refused to hear veiled women because they could not verify their identity.
The legislation, which has passed the lower house and now has to be approved by the Senate, bans the wearing of burkas, helmets and face masks on public transport as well as education, healthcare and government buildings.
The bill was proposed by Interior Minister Ronald Plasterk last year, as he believed clothing that covered the face hindered communication in public services and could pose a security threat. Violations could result in a fine of up to 410 euros.

Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere has proposed a partial burka ban. De Maiziere, one of Merkel's closest allies, said the ban would cover 'places where it is necessary for our society's coexistence' including government offices, schools and universities, courtrooms as well as demonstrations.

The first European country to ban the full-veil in public spaces with a law 'banning the hiding of the face in public spaces', with a law that took effect in April 2011.

The European Court of Human Rights upheld the burka ban in 2014, rejecting arguments that outlawing full-face veils breached religious freedom. The law has resulted in around 1,500 arrests in the past five years, and violations can result in fines of up to 150 euros.

Earlier this year, several French towns sought to ban burkinis, the full-body Islamic swimsuit. The move was successfully challenged in all but one case on the island of Corsica.
The wearing of the full veil is governed by a June 1, 2011 law. It prohibits 'appearing in places accessible to the public with a face masked or hidden, in whole or in part, in such a way as to be unidentifiable'. Exceptions exist, in particular where the workplace requires the face to be hidden, or for the carnival season. Violations can result in fines and/or up to seven days in jail.

In September, Bulgarian lawmakers approved a law that bans wearing in public clothing that partially or completely covers the face, with exceptions for health or professional reasons. Initial violations result in a fine of roughly 100 euros, while subsequent violations are fined the equivalent of 750 euros.

There is currently a debate over a 1975 law aimed at protecting public order that makes it illegal to cover one's face in public places and the provision applies to the veil, as well as motorcycle helmets and other masks.
The anti-immigrant Northern League presented in October a draft law in the Lombardy region around Milan that would ban the burka, niqab and burkini.

A region in the Italian Riviera is to ban women from wearing the Islamic niqab in hospitals and public offices.
Officials in the northern region of Liguria announced plans to enforce the ban in what is described as an attempt to defend women's freedom.

Switzerland's lower house narrowly approved in September a draft bill on a nationwide burka ban, but the measure remains far from becoming law. In the southern Tessin region however, the burka has been forbidden since July 1 and violators face a minimum fine of 100 Swiss francs.

Education Minister Torbjorn Roe Isaksen said in October that the government was seeking regulations prohibiting the full-face veil in schools and universities. Scandinavian neighbours such as Denmark and Sweden have allowed schools, administrations and companies to decide the issue for themselves, while there is no ban in Finland.
Three other countries that have not banned the burka are among those closest to the Middle East or North Africa - Greece, Portugal and Spain.

Morocco has banned the production and sale of burqa full-face Muslim veils for security reasons.
While there was no official announcement by authorities in the North African nation, the reports said the interior ministry order would take effect this week.

The ban has been imposed due to reports felons have been using the garment to help carry out their crimes.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938126/Muslim-woman-forced-remove-veil-Austria.html

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


So you cannot back up your childish lies.

That is all i wanted to know

Just like you cannot state, Palestinians terrorists should not have Islamic buriels.

You expose your true nature sexy with every post.

Lol you are a bully Didge

And I don't tolerate people like you.

Grow the fuck up

So you misdirect again

How am I being a bully here simple asking you questions, that you refuse to answser honestly?

I don't think it matters whether women are required to wear burkas or whatever according to their religion - it's their choice to cover up.

Having said that, I'd like to see them banned, in the same way I'd like to see trousers which show someone's arse banned, and also these "leggings" which are see through and look like tights.

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think it matters whether women are required to wear burkas or whatever according to their religion - it's their choice to cover up.

Having said that, I'd like to see them banned, in the same way I'd like to see trousers which show someone's arse banned, and also these "leggings" which are see through and look like tights.

love it really made me laugh that .

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think it matters whether women are required to wear burkas or whatever according to their religion - it's their choice to cover up.

Having said that, I'd like to see them banned, in the same way I'd like to see trousers which show someone's arse banned, and also these "leggings" which are see through and look like tights.

Okay Rags. Imagine there is a belief, that people believe its okay to take women and children and use them as sexual slaves.

Its a choice right for this person to believe its okay?

Does that make it okay?

That is Islam.

You may question who does it effect if that person decides to wear something?

Well many Muslim women are forced to wear based on a belief and not a choice.

Countless Muslim women are indoctrinated to believe that they are at fault and that they should cover up.

Its the biggest sign ever that Islam is a made up load of bullshit, devised to control people.

I mean why create beauty, only then to cover it up, when every single other animal is naked?

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think it matters whether women are required to wear burkas or whatever according to their religion - it's their choice to cover up.

Having said that, I'd like to see them banned, in the same way I'd like to see trousers which show someone's arse banned, and also these "leggings" which are see through and look like tights.

Yeah but you know very well those items of clothing you described won't be banned

That's the issue here.

Why don't the men wear them?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think it matters whether women are required to wear burkas or whatever according to their religion - it's their choice to cover up.

Having said that, I'd like to see them banned, in the same way I'd like to see trousers which show someone's arse banned, and also these "leggings" which are see through and look like tights.

Yeah but you know very well those items of clothing you described won't be banned

That's the issue here.

They have been in the passed actually and all wrong.

I am against banning

I am also against people taking advantage of insecure people over how they fear death, to then control them

That is what many religions do.

Look at how you defend something that have in many places see your own Muslim sisters forced to wear.

You insult every single one of them.

If there is no compulsion, then why devise a belief, that makes them believe they should cover up?

nicko wrote:Why don't the men wear them?

It's only the women who wear them so men don't get aroused by their beauty - they can't control themselves apparently

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

I see the irony, but I don't see the alternative.

The women who 'choose' to wear it, by default have a choice. So stopping them wearing it does zero harm.

On the flip side, those forced to wear it are liberated by the ban.

With the ban no one is seriously negatively impacted. Without the ban an unknown number of woman are seriously negatively impacted.

From that stand point it's hard to justify not banning it just because some like it.

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

You cannot know that. No one can know that.

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

You cannot know that. No one can know that.

The negativity?

It's a sure thing

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

You cannot know that. No one can know that.

They banned Elvis from the waste down on TV when people sexualized dancing.

What happenned?

It ended up liberating people from a backward prudish generation, that stuck two fingers up to them.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

You cannot know that. No one can know that.

The negativity?

It's a sure thing

How does negativity form?

You rightly are against racist beliefs like me?

Correct?

Yes or no?

You're wrong SM

banning the bhurka will increase positivity towards Muslims.

The bhurka is a uniform that reinforces the stereotype of a radical Muslim and only serves to divide and segregate.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

You cannot know that. No one can know that.

The negativity?

It's a sure thing

I mean you cannot know no one is forced to wear it.

smelly-bandit wrote:You're wrong SM

banning the bhurka will increase positivity towards Muslims.

The bhurka is a uniform that reinforces the stereotype of a radical Muslim and only serves to divide and segregate.

I'm never wrong especially when it comes to this.

As a Muslim woman I've seen it from within.

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

The negativity?

It's a sure thing

I mean you cannot know no one is forced to wear it.

I know what you meant.

I was addressing my point

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:You're wrong SM

banning the bhurka will increase positivity towards Muslims.

The bhurka is a uniform that reinforces the stereotype of a radical Muslim and only serves to divide and segregate.

I'm never wrong especially when it comes to this.

As a Muslim woman I've seen it from within.

As a. Non. Muslim man I've seen it from the outside and you're wrong

smelly-bandit wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I'm never wrong especially when it comes to this.

As a Muslim woman I've seen it from within.

As a. Non. Muslim man I've seen it from the outside and you're wrong

Outside - inside

Which one is closer

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I mean you cannot know no one is forced to wear it.

I know what you meant.

I was addressing my point

I know you mean well sexy, but you do know no favours for your fellow Muslims

Prejudice against Muslims is wrong and you fail to see you enable this

You protect bad and poor beliefs, when you should defend your fellow Muslims who suffer hate because of Islamic beliefs.

You though try to ignore this happens and give excuses to problems in Islam.

You are like every Pope that has ever been in history.

You actually defend the bad belief and not the believer who is suffering persecution.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:You're wrong SM

banning the bhurka will increase positivity towards Muslims.

The bhurka is a uniform that reinforces the stereotype of a radical Muslim and only serves to divide and segregate.

I'm never wrong especially when it comes to this.

As a Muslim woman I've seen it from within.

The main problem with religion

The poor arrogance that it teaches

We are all wrong at times, even me.

Lol so now my arrogance is 'blamed' on Islam.

It just gets better and better.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Lol so now my arrogance is 'blamed' on Islam.

It just gets better and better.

It generally is with religion

Religion is the Abrahamic religions teach a religious racism.

All others are condemned

It teaches a view that those who believe are saved and those who do not are damned to suffer.

That is barbaric

It instills a beliefs that a child rapist can do the worst harm ever and yet can be forgiven by doing something they believe is for their deity.

So there is only one question to ask.

Are you better than a non Muslim when we are all equal?

If you think you are equal, then why believe in the faith you believe in?

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You won't have seen them wearing a burqa.  They'll have been wearing the niqab.

Can you post pics of the difference,  The 'This morning' video describes the item as a burka.....that's what I see women wearing when driving.  

The Niqab shows only the eyes. The Burqa covers the entire body and face. The Chador shows the face only. The Hijab just covers the hair.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Can you post pics of the difference,  The 'This morning' video describes the item as a burka.....that's what I see women wearing when driving.  

The Niqab shows only the eyes.   The Burqa covers the entire body and face.  The Chador shows the face only.   The Hijab just covers the hair.

The chadar or chador is a shawl which covers the upper half of the body

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Interesting you say irony.

You say women want to wear it and never actually question what has caused them to believe they should.

You simple except that they want to.

It shows you insult your Muslim sisters.

No where in the Quran does it state that any Muslim women should wear the Hijab and the face veil and you simple want to respect a poor sexist belief. That makes them believe they should cover up.

So why do you not question why some Muslim women are taught to believe that iff they do not wear, its a sin, and they will suffer if they do not?

You are so fixated wrongly thinking you are protecting womens rights, when you stupidly protect male dominance over women.

So you tell me, why should a woman be made to feel that they need to cover up.

Does this mean your God is incompetant?

No you are forcing them not to wear something they want to wear

WHy should you have the authority to say what a woman can or cannot wear?

Who gave you that right?

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm. You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision. Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through tradition passed down through the generations. A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No you are forcing them not to wear something they want to wear

WHy should you have the authority to say what a woman can or cannot wear?

Who gave you that right?

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm.  You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision.   Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through  tradition passed down through the generations.   A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.  

Wow, great answer

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

The Niqab shows only the eyes.   The Burqa covers the entire body and face.  The Chador shows the face only.   The Hijab just covers the hair.

The chadar or chador is a shawl which covers the upper half of the body

No, it's not. The Chador is a cloak that covers the whole body bar the face. The Khimar covers the shoulders and upper body.

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm.  You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision.   Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through  tradition passed down through the generations.   A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.  

Wow, great answer

Welcome back, Didge.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No you are forcing them not to wear something they want to wear

WHy should you have the authority to say what a woman can or cannot wear?

Who gave you that right?

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm.  You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision.   Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through  tradition passed down through the generations.   A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.  

The comparison you made is wrong on so many levels.

FGM is physical abuse. It's also not an Islamic requirement or ever has been.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

The chadar or chador is a shawl which covers the upper half of the body

No, it's not.  The Chador is a cloak that covers the whole body bar the face.  The Khimar covers the shoulders and upper body.

Chadar is an Urdu word which means a shawl.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Lol so now my arrogance is 'blamed' on Islam.

It just gets better and better.

Do you cover up in public?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow, great answer

Welcome back, Didge.

Thank you Horatio

Have to admit, that is the best answer I have seen on this. As a response.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Lol so now my arrogance is 'blamed' on Islam.

It just gets better and better.

Do you cover up in public?

I wear modest clothes yes.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm.  You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision.   Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through  tradition passed down through the generations.   A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.  

The comparison you made is wrong on so many levels.

FGM is physical abuse. It's also not an Islamic requirement or ever has been.

Yet you back circumcision?

Which is a form of FGM

I against Jews doing this also, before you ask.

A person should be able to decide when adult, not parents scar them.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

No, it's not.  The Chador is a cloak that covers the whole body bar the face.  The Khimar covers the shoulders and upper body.

Chadar is an Urdu word which means a shawl.

The Muslim Chador is  full length.   We're not talking about Indian women here.  But Muslims.  So I don't know why you've thrown that in the mix.   Other than to cover up the fact that you don't know a burqa from a niqab.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Do you cover up in public?

I wear modest clothes yes.

But you don't cover your face or hair

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Chadar is an Urdu word which means a shawl.

The Muslim Chador is  full length.   We're not talking about Indian women here.  But Muslims.  So I don't know why you've thrown that in the mix.   Other than to cover up the fact that you don't know a burqa from a niqab.

Lol

This is from the Collins Dictionary

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chador

Chador


a large, square cloth traditionally worn as a shawl or cloak by Muslim and Hindu women

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Chadar is an Urdu word which means a shawl.

The Muslim Chador is  full length.   We're not talking about Indian women here.  But Muslims.  So I don't know why you've thrown that in the mix.   Other than to cover up the fact that you don't know a burqa from a niqab.

Where did I mention Indian women?

Do you even know who speaks Urdu?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

If you ingrain a tradition deeply enough, no matter its negativity, it becomes the psychological norm.  You could say the same thing about the practice of FGM/circumcision.   Although the mutilated child doesn't have a choice, she/he then goes on to perpetuate that particular horror through  tradition passed down through the generations.   A tradition with a genesis in medieval religious doctrine.  

The comparison you made is wrong on so many levels.

FGM is physical abuse. It's also not an Islamic requirement or ever has been.

You don't think it abusive to force a child to cover up from the age of 12 or so? And before you cite free choice, there are many women in the UK who don't have a choice. They dare not have a choice. Just like they dare not marry outside of their culture, or be seen talking to or mingling with or touching a male who isn't a family member. No matter which angle is taken here, the same logic prevails. The 'veil' was invented to subjugate women. And when people are cornered, when they have no place to go with a thing, they take it, and own it, and make it theirs. That's how they survive it. Hence their conceptions of 'free choice.'

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

The Muslim Chador is  full length.   We're not talking about Indian women here.  But Muslims.  So I don't know why you've thrown that in the mix.   Other than to cover up the fact that you don't know a burqa from a niqab.

Where did I mention Indian women?

Do you even know who speaks Urdu?

It's the official language of Pakistan.   It is also spoken  in India, Bangladesh, Nepal.

In India, Urdu is spoken in places with large Muslim communities or cities that were once power centres of Muslim Empires. They include parts of Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Kashmir, Bhopal and Hyderabad. Some Indian schools teach Urdu as a first language and have their own syllabus and exams.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Where did I mention Indian women?

Do you even know who speaks Urdu?

It's the official language of Pakistan.   It is also spoken  in India, Bangladesh, Nepal.

Then you should know you error in making the assumption I was referring to Indian women.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

The Muslim Chador is  full length.   We're not talking about Indian women here.  But Muslims.  So I don't know why you've thrown that in the mix.   Other than to cover up the fact that you don't know a burqa from a niqab.

Lol

This is from the Collins Dictionary

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chador

Chador


a large, square cloth traditionally worn as a shawl or cloak by Muslim and Hindu women

Well, we can all cut and paste different 'Dictionary' meanings, can't we?

chadoror chadar, chaddar, chuddar
[chuhd-er]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the traditional garment of Muslim and Hindu women, consisting of a long, usually black or drab-colored cloth or veil that envelops the body from head to foot and covers all or part of the face.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

The comparison you made is wrong on so many levels.

FGM is physical abuse. It's also not an Islamic requirement or ever has been.

You don't think it abusive to force a child to cover up from the age of 12 or so?   And before you cite free choice, there are many women in the UK who don't have a choice.   They dare not have  a choice.  Just like they dare not marry outside of their culture, or be seen talking to or mingling  with or touching a male who isn't a family member.   No matter which angle is taken here, the same logic prevails.   The 'veil' was invented to subjugate women.   And when people are cornered, when they have no place to go with a thing, they take it, and own it, and make it theirs.  That's how they survive it.   Hence their conceptions of 'free choice.'

Hmmm

Do you know anyone who is forced to wear a veil?

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol

This is from the Collins Dictionary

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chador

Chador


a large, square cloth traditionally worn as a shawl or cloak by Muslim and Hindu women

Well, we can all cut and paste different 'Dictionary' meanings, can't we?

chadoror chadar, chaddar, chuddar
[chuhd-er]
Spell  Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the traditional garment of Muslim and Hindu women, consisting of a long, usually black or drab-colored cloth or veil that envelops the body from head to foot and covers all or part of the face.

Hence why I said the chador is an Urdu word.

It means a shawl.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

As a. Non. Muslim man I've seen it from the outside and you're wrong

Outside - inside

Which one is closer

Well said.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's the official language of Pakistan.   It is also spoken  in India, Bangladesh, Nepal.

Then you should know you error in making the assumption I was referring to Indian women.

I don't care who you're referring to. It's not relevant to the OP. What you're trying to do here is deflect by arguing about the length of a chador and what it means in Urdu. We're actually discussing full body veils. I don't think anyone on here finds any other kind of covering objectionable.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol

This is from the Collins Dictionary

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/chador

Chador


a large, square cloth traditionally worn as a shawl or cloak by Muslim and Hindu women

Well, we can all cut and paste different 'Dictionary' meanings, can't we?

chadoror chadar, chaddar, chuddar
[chuhd-er]
Spell  Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the traditional garment of Muslim and Hindu women, consisting of a long, usually black or drab-colored cloth or veil that envelops the body from head to foot and covers all or part of the face.

The definition is wrong.

The face covering is known as a niqaab or even a burkha.

The burkha in the classic sense is worn in the Islamic countries which covers the full face.

In this country eyes are always exposed.

Syl wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Outside - inside

Which one is closer

Well said.

Thanks.

You know what I find funny Syl?

Is people like Smelly and Didge not knowing a Muslim in real life and assuming things from their own persepective.

HoratioTarr wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Then you should know you error in making the assumption I was referring to Indian women.

I don't care who you're referring  to.  It's not relevant to the OP.  What you're trying to do here is deflect by arguing about the length of a chador and what it means in Urdu.   We're actually discussing full body veils.   I don't think anyone on here finds any other kind of covering objectionable.    

Well you started it by claiming I don't know what these garments meant.