Austrian police force women to uncover their faces as country's 'burka ban' comes into force

First topic message reminder :

A Muslim woman was forced to remove her veil today as the ban on full-face veils came into force in Austria.
Items concealing the face in public places, such as the full Islamic veil, medical masks and scarves to cover faces have been outlawed.
Only under certain conditions, such as 'at cultural events', will people be able to wear them in public.
The laws are aimed at 'ensuring the cohesion of society in an open society' and anyone violating the rules could be hit with a €150 fine.

On Sunday, a Muslim woman defying the rule was spotted being told to remove her veil in the town of Zell am See.
In a ruling announcing the ban, officials in Vienna said: 'Acceptance and respect of Austrian values are basic conditions for successful cohabitation between the majority Austrian population and people from third countries living in Austria.'
The measures, similar to those in other European Union countries, also apply to visitors even though large numbers of Arab tourists holiday in the Alpine country.

How the burqa ban has divided opinion across Europe

There is no law restricting the wearing of garments for religious reasons.
However in March 2007 the education ministry published directives allowing directors of public establishments and denominational schools to ban the niqab veil.

Judges have on occasion refused to hear veiled women because they could not verify their identity.
The legislation, which has passed the lower house and now has to be approved by the Senate, bans the wearing of burkas, helmets and face masks on public transport as well as education, healthcare and government buildings.
The bill was proposed by Interior Minister Ronald Plasterk last year, as he believed clothing that covered the face hindered communication in public services and could pose a security threat. Violations could result in a fine of up to 410 euros.

Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere has proposed a partial burka ban. De Maiziere, one of Merkel's closest allies, said the ban would cover 'places where it is necessary for our society's coexistence' including government offices, schools and universities, courtrooms as well as demonstrations.

The first European country to ban the full-veil in public spaces with a law 'banning the hiding of the face in public spaces', with a law that took effect in April 2011.

The European Court of Human Rights upheld the burka ban in 2014, rejecting arguments that outlawing full-face veils breached religious freedom. The law has resulted in around 1,500 arrests in the past five years, and violations can result in fines of up to 150 euros.

Earlier this year, several French towns sought to ban burkinis, the full-body Islamic swimsuit. The move was successfully challenged in all but one case on the island of Corsica.
The wearing of the full veil is governed by a June 1, 2011 law. It prohibits 'appearing in places accessible to the public with a face masked or hidden, in whole or in part, in such a way as to be unidentifiable'. Exceptions exist, in particular where the workplace requires the face to be hidden, or for the carnival season. Violations can result in fines and/or up to seven days in jail.

In September, Bulgarian lawmakers approved a law that bans wearing in public clothing that partially or completely covers the face, with exceptions for health or professional reasons. Initial violations result in a fine of roughly 100 euros, while subsequent violations are fined the equivalent of 750 euros.

There is currently a debate over a 1975 law aimed at protecting public order that makes it illegal to cover one's face in public places and the provision applies to the veil, as well as motorcycle helmets and other masks.
The anti-immigrant Northern League presented in October a draft law in the Lombardy region around Milan that would ban the burka, niqab and burkini.

A region in the Italian Riviera is to ban women from wearing the Islamic niqab in hospitals and public offices.
Officials in the northern region of Liguria announced plans to enforce the ban in what is described as an attempt to defend women's freedom.

Switzerland's lower house narrowly approved in September a draft bill on a nationwide burka ban, but the measure remains far from becoming law. In the southern Tessin region however, the burka has been forbidden since July 1 and violators face a minimum fine of 100 Swiss francs.

Education Minister Torbjorn Roe Isaksen said in October that the government was seeking regulations prohibiting the full-face veil in schools and universities. Scandinavian neighbours such as Denmark and Sweden have allowed schools, administrations and companies to decide the issue for themselves, while there is no ban in Finland.
Three other countries that have not banned the burka are among those closest to the Middle East or North Africa - Greece, Portugal and Spain.

Morocco has banned the production and sale of burqa full-face Muslim veils for security reasons.
While there was no official announcement by authorities in the North African nation, the reports said the interior ministry order would take effect this week.

The ban has been imposed due to reports felons have been using the garment to help carry out their crimes.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938126/Muslim-woman-forced-remove-veil-Austria.html

Actually the woman in the video says she is doing for god .

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

I can say hand on heart I have seen this quite a few times. A couple of times cars driven out of the side streets haven't given way and the driver was wearing a burka....the driver simply didn't see us.

You won't have seen them wearing a burqa.  They'll have been wearing the niqab.

Can you post pics of the difference, The 'This morning' video describes the item as a burka.....that's what I see women wearing when driving.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Syl wrote:

We see quite a lot of women wearing the burka round here VOD...to be honest the only time I ever really notice them is when they drive, which they do badly because they cant see properly....they may as well be wearing blinkers.

After the IRA bombs, two in Manchester, I know a lot of really nice Irish people felt afraid to speak when out in public,  they were sometimes blamed for the terrorist acts, which of course they had nothing to do with.

Its the same thing really, apart from an Irish person wasn't so obvious, till he/she opened their mouths.  

Of course not all moslems are terrorists I know this - but it opens the way for terrorists to get away with the dirty deed disguised under a burka .

The majority of terrorists carry their weapons in a back pack don't they?
At airports and other high risk areas all face coverings should be removed for security reasons.

Some carry their weapons strapped around their waists, witch can't be seen under a Burka !

nicko wrote:Some carry their weapons strapped around their waists,   witch can't be seen under a Burka !

Yes that's possible, but how many terrorists have done that compared with terrorists who have worn padded anoraks or jackets?
Also a Muslim mans dress can be just as flowing as the womans....if a person has evil on his mind he doesn't need a face covering or womans robe to stop him.

Talk about missing the point.

Either you believe woman should be coerced through fear to believe they should cover up and they will suffer thinking this is a good thing with a religious belief or you find it abhorant.

How can anyone think its okay to play on the mind of people insecure to the fears of death itself and where they think afterwards they might suffer eternally. If they do not follow some warped belief?

It takes some sick fuck, to control women, thinking they should cover up. Making them believe this will some how deter sexually abusive men or women for that matter. Even worse making them think they are the issue and not the vile twat that attacks them. Yet as seen here, some think this vile belief should be defended. As they with such ignorance. Think they are protecting womens rights when in facts they are backing misogyny through the invented minds of men to control women.

Didge wrote:Talk about missing the point.

Either you believe woman should be coerced through fear to believe they should cover up and they will suffer thinking this is a good thing with a religious belief or you find it abhorant.

How can anyone think its okay to play on the mind of people insecure to the fears of death itself and where they think afterwards they might suffer eternally. If they do not follow some warped belief?

It takes some sick fuck, to control women, thinking they should cover up. Making them believe this will some how deter sexually abusive men or women for that matter. Even worse making them think they are the issue and not the vile twat that attacks them. Yet as seen here, some think this vile belief should be defended. As they with such ignorance. Think they are protecting womens rights when in facts they are backing misogyny through the invented minds of men to control women.

If that's addressed to me...I haven't missed any point. I was actually answering Nickos point.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:Talk about missing the point.

Either you believe woman should be coerced through fear to believe they should cover up and they will suffer thinking this is a good thing with a religious belief or you find it abhorant.

How can anyone think its okay to play on the mind of people insecure to the fears of death itself and where they think afterwards they might suffer eternally. If they do not follow some warped belief?

It takes some sick fuck, to control women, thinking they should cover up. Making them believe this will some how deter sexually abusive men or women for that matter. Even worse making them think they are the issue and not the vile twat that attacks them. Yet as seen here, some think this vile belief should be defended. As they with such ignorance. Think they are protecting womens rights when in facts they are backing misogyny through the invented minds of men to control women.

If that's addressed to me...I haven't missed any point. I was actually answering Nickos point.

Ignoring all your other poor points supporting to the subjucation of women that are indoctrinated to believe that its a good thing to be controlled like cattle. Through the belief they will suffer if they do not cover up their beauty, based on some warped belief, this is what will deter sexual abuse and rape. Making them believe they are at fault.

You missed the point the moment you defended something sexist devised by men to control women.

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:

If that's addressed to me...I haven't missed any point. I was actually answering Nickos point.

Ignoring all your other poor points supporting to the subjucation of women that are indoctrinated to believe that its a good thing to be controlled like cattle. Through the belief they will suffer if they do not cover up their beauty, based on some warped belief, this is what causes sexual abuse and rape. Making them believe they are at fault.

You missed the point the moment you defended something sexist devised by men to control women.

What causes sexual abuse and rape is rapists and sexual abusers.

You miss the point that some women choose to wear the face coverings ....watch the video, watch countless videos online where Muslim women give various reasons of why they CHOOSE themselves to wear it.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:


Ignoring all your other poor points supporting to the subjucation of women that are indoctrinated to believe that its a good thing to be controlled like cattle. Through the belief they will suffer if they do not cover up their beauty, based on some warped belief, this is what causes sexual abuse and rape. Making them believe they are at fault.

You missed the point the moment you defended something sexist devised by men to control women.

What causes sexual abuse and rape is rapists and sexual abusers.

You miss the point that some women choose to wear the face coverings ....watch the video, watch countless videos online where Muslim women give various reasons of why they CHOOSE themselves to wear it.

Actually is control to the motivation of rapists and sexual abuses. Showing you have not got a clue

How is it a choice, when that choice is made through fear?

This is why people like you insult women.

They are indoctrinated to believe they are at fault for the desires of men, failing to even understand attraction itself. Showing how invented this is by men to control women. These women who believe they are chosing to wear. Are not chosing to wear. They are chosing to believe something they have been taught religiously, that if they do not wear they will have sinned and fear they will suffer in the after life.

Have you no comprehension of how being susceptible to fear can be coerced into thinking what they are doing is right, when its wrong?

Take ISIS wivies. Who think its great thier husbands have sex slaves, because they believe its ordained by the Quran. Thus believeing that their own deity thinks its okay they can rape and abuse captured women and girls.

That is their choice also to believe this.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

I can say hand on heart I have seen this quite a few times. A couple of times cars driven out of the side streets haven't given way and the driver was wearing a burka....the driver simply didn't see us.

You won't have seen them wearing a burqa.  They'll have been wearing the niqab.

bhurka is the catchall for facial covering, im not sure the differences are relevant

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:This is one of the few areas I find myself agreeing with smelly. I can just about accept headscarves, but the full face covering as well, especially the whole body covering, is incredibly uncomfortable on a number of levels.

1. Do not pretend that wearing those things is anything but deeply uncomfortable, physically, especially in certain climates.

2. It IS a security issue in many situations.

3. Some women ARE forced to wear it, and there really is NO way of really knowing who is.

4. Human communication is built in part of facial expressions, if you remove that aspect of a person then they are in part dehumanised. If they like that aspect of concealing themselves then it is an issue of trust.

5. It IS a sign of oppression. If it isn't then why don't men wear them? Ever? To any extent.

The ONLY two reasons people have for wearing this are:

A. Religious/cultural brainwashing.

B. Forced to.

It does not bring a woman closer to god (since the idea of god is BS anyway) and if a woman thinks she needs to wear it to curb the desires of men then that speaks of a societal problem which wearing one does not address but evades.

Banning is always extreme but I don't feel I could oppose it (the ban) with conviction. Education should be the real tool used to turn people on this backward tradition.

Being an Atheist I understand your reasoning

But I disagree.

You think it's a sign of oppression because you have been bought up that way.

It isn't.

Some are forced some wear it very happily.

Why because THEY CAN and it's their free will.

See the irony here?

It's not as an atheist I think that way, it's as a non-Muslim I think that way.

Since it is exclusively Muslim women that wear this, that makes it a religious/culturally brainwashed 'choice'. No one outside the faith of Islam sees it as anything other than what I said.

Even in Thailand the site of the full body and face covering raises eyebrows (Thais rather funnily refer the women wearing them as penguins )

smelly-bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:This is one of the few areas I find myself agreeing with smelly. I can just about accept headscarves, but the full face covering as well, especially the whole body covering, is incredibly uncomfortable on a number of levels.

1. Do not pretend that wearing those things is anything but deeply uncomfortable, physically, especially in certain climates.

2. It IS a security issue in many situations.

3. Some women ARE forced to wear it, and there really is NO way of really knowing who is.

4. Human communication is built in part of facial expressions, if you remove that aspect of a person then they are in part dehumanised. If they like that aspect of concealing themselves then it is an issue of trust.

5. It IS a sign of oppression. If it isn't then why don't men wear them? Ever? To any extent.

The ONLY two reasons people have for wearing this are:

A. Religious/cultural brainwashing.

B. Forced to.

It does not bring a woman closer to god (since the idea of god is BS anyway) and if a woman thinks she needs to wear it to curb the desires of men then that speaks of a societal problem which wearing one does not address but evades.

Banning is always extreme but I don't feel I could oppose it (the ban) with conviction. Education should be the real tool used to turn people on this backward tradition.

Good points, well presented

The question I have is, are you now an islamophobe because you agree with me

Or

Am I now am liberal because I agree with you.?

If anyone thinks I'm as Islamophobe based on that, they're an idiot.

I'd say it makes you more liberal than burqa supporting Muslim on this one issue

Well, he's an idiot in the first place. Start with that assumption moving forward, Les.

Eilzel wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Good points, well presented

The question I have is, are you now an islamophobe because you agree with me

Or

Am I now am liberal because I agree with you.?

If anyone thinks I'm as Islamophobe based on that, they're an idiot.

I'd say it makes you more liberal than burqa supporting Muslim on this one issue

does that make you an idiot??

because if i said something like that you'd be screaming Islamophobia from atop the highest minaret in the land.....................in the past anyway.

could it be that now you're all grown up and "well traveled" and shit you're less spiky??

Original Quill wrote:   Well, he's an idiot in the first place.  Start with that assumption moving forward, Les.

so you impeached the god emperor trump yet??

or is he #stillyourpresident??

how about californialand?? hows that going??

Eilzel wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Good points, well presented

The question I have is, are you now an islamophobe because you agree with me

Or

Am I now am liberal because I agree with you.?

If anyone thinks I'm as Islamophobe based on that, they're an idiot.

I'd say it makes you more liberal than burqa supporting Muslim on this one issue

I would like to think we are anti any poor religious belief. That effects the well being and equality of others.

That goes for any religion.

So you would have to be anti the Quran and the Bible based literally would you not?

What is actually wrong is discriminating against people for their beliefs, when we live in a secular society.

I mean are you afraid to say you are anti Nazism?

Does that make you a Naziophobe?

Islamophobia was an invented word, more to protect Islam from criticism, than it was to actually protect Muslims from prejudice.

smelly-bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Good points, well presented

The question I have is, are you now an islamophobe because you agree with me

Or

Am I now am liberal because I agree with you.?

If anyone thinks I'm as Islamophobe based on that, they're an idiot.

I'd say it makes you more liberal than burqa supporting Muslim on this one issue

does that make you an idiot??

because if i said something like that you'd be screaming Islamophobia from atop the highest minaret in the land.....................in the past anyway.

could it be that now you're all grown up and "well traveled" and shit you're less spiky??

Let's be real, smelly, if I ever called you an Islamophobe it was for far worse than that.

I agree with the Les on his list of arguments about the burka/face cloth...

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Being an Atheist I understand your reasoning

But I disagree.

You think it's a sign of oppression because you have been bought up that way.

It isn't.

Some are forced some wear it very happily.

Why because THEY CAN and it's their free will.

See the irony here?

It's not as an atheist I think that way, it's as a non-Muslim I think that way.

Since it is exclusively Muslim women that wear this, that makes it a religious/culturally brainwashed 'choice'. No one outside the faith of Islam sees it as anything other than what I said.

Even in Thailand the site of the full body and face covering raises eyebrows (Thais rather funnily refer the women wearing them as penguins )

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

Eilzel wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

does that make you an idiot??

because if i said something like that you'd be screaming Islamophobia from atop the highest minaret in the land.....................in the past anyway.

could it be that now you're all grown up and "well traveled" and shit you're less spiky??

Let's be real, smelly, if I ever called you an Islamophobe it was for far worse than that.

Lets be real elizel, you've never had cause to call me an islamophobe

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

It's not as an atheist I think that way, it's as a non-Muslim I think that way.

Since it is exclusively Muslim women that wear this, that makes it a religious/culturally brainwashed 'choice'. No one outside the faith of Islam sees it as anything other than what I said.

Even in Thailand the site of the full body and face covering raises eyebrows (Thais rather funnily refer the women wearing them as penguins )

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

Interesting you say irony.

You say women want to wear it and never actually question what has caused them to believe they should.

You simple except that they want to.

It shows you insult your Muslim sisters.

No where in the Quran does it state that any Muslim women should wear the Hijab and the face veil and you simple want to respect a poor sexist belief. That makes them believe they should cover up.

So why do you not question why some Muslim women are taught to believe that iff they do not wear, its a sin, and they will suffer if they do not?

You are so fixated wrongly thinking you are protecting womens rights, when you stupidly protect male dominance over women.

So you tell me, why should a woman be made to feel that they need to cover up.

Does this mean your God is incompetant?

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

Interesting you say irony.

You say women want to wear it and never actually question what has caused them to believe they should.

You simple except that they want to.

It shows you insult your Muslim sisters.

No where in the Quran does it state that any Muslim women should wear the Hijab and the face veil and you simple want to respect a poor sexist belief. That makes them believe they should cover up.

So why do you not question why some Muslim women are taught to believe that iff they do not wear, its a sin, and they will suffer if they do not?

You are so fixated wrongly thinking you are protecting womens rights, when you stupidly protect male dominance over women.

So you tell me, why should a woman be made to feel that they need to cover up.

Does this mean your God is incompetant?

No you are forcing them not to wear something they want to wear

WHy should you have the authority to say what a woman can or cannot wear?

Who gave you that right?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Interesting you say irony.

You say women want to wear it and never actually question what has caused them to believe they should.

You simple except that they want to.

It shows you insult your Muslim sisters.

No where in the Quran does it state that any Muslim women should wear the Hijab and the face veil and you simple want to respect a poor sexist belief. That makes them believe they should cover up.

So why do you not question why some Muslim women are taught to believe that iff they do not wear, its a sin, and they will suffer if they do not?

You are so fixated wrongly thinking you are protecting womens rights, when you stupidly protect male dominance over women.

So you tell me, why should a woman be made to feel that they need to cover up.

Does this mean your God is incompetant?

No you are forcing them not to wear something they want to wear

WHy should you have the authority to say what a woman can or cannot wear?

Who gave you that right?

Can you show me anywhere that I have said what they can wear?

Please show me?

Where did I also then say what they can where?

Do you see how poorly you misdirect?

What did I actually say?

Try again

You keep banging on that they shouldn't wear the burka or the Niqaab don't you?

Are you now denying this?

SEXY MAMA wrote:You keep banging on that they shouldn't wear the burka or the Niqaab don't you?

Are you now denying this?

Misdirection again

What did I actually say

Try again

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:You keep banging on that they shouldn't wear the burka or the Niqaab don't you?

Are you now denying this?

Misdirection again

What did I actually say

Try again

You keep changing your ids so I can't check it

But you know what you have written here many times when this topic has been debated.

Answer the points

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Misdirection again

What did I actually say

Try again

You keep changing your ids so I can't check it

But you know what you have written here many times when this topic has been debated.

Answer the points

Irony at its best and the worst misdirection yet made

You accused me of things on here and cannot find a single post where I have claimed to force any Muslim to do anything.

So I will ask again

What did I actually say?

Didge wrote:This clearly needs saying again

The choice is not on whether to wear, but on the belief they should wear. Thus they chose to believe that a version of Islam commands then to cover themselves up, otherwise its a sin. Of which those who do, believe if they do not, they will sin. Hence it will be a fear of a hell fire within Islam that is driving them to believe the command they must cover up.

Nobody should be stripped of wearing the hijab/burka, but to open her eyes and see how wrong it is, that fear is driving her to believe she is commanded to wear. Believing it is a sin not to cover up wearing the hijab. All of this is taught and made to make them believe they should through a fear. In order to believe some command written down 1400 years ago.

That she understands, that if this Allah existed. Where the claims is that she must cover up, to stop the sexual advances of men. Knowing full well, it does not deter men at all. As for example rapists, will rape any woman they choose as a victim, no matter how they are dressed. Which will do nothing to prevent them the sexual advances of men and from being sexually abused or raped.

Should lead her to the following conclusions.

Either the deity she believers in created a flaw in men unknowingly. A flaw that has some men rape and sexually abuse women. Making this god utterly incompetent, in-creating such a flaw unknowingly. Where even worse. Is then blaming the woman for this flaw, for how beautiful this deity created them. By then ordering them to cover up. Claiming this will prevent the sexual advances. Even though this actually does nothing to prevent the sexual advances of men. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Or this deity created men deliberately flawed. Knowing full well, some will rape some of them anyway. (pure evil). To then yet again blame women. For the beauty this deity has created themselves and command them to cover up. Knowing again, that this command will do nothing to deter the sexual advances of men. Thus playing a rather sick game with Muslim women. Fooling them to believe it will stop men, when it never will. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Thus showing how the Hijab is nothing more than born from the beliefs of men, in order to control women. Clearly not born from a supposed all loving God.

So you will forgive me if I do not see the Hijab/Burka as a symbol of free expression or the empowerment of women, but the control and oppression of them.

Especially where many of their Muslims sisters are forced to wear

Here you go Sexy

Show me where I am forcing anyone?

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You keep changing your ids so I can't check it

But you know what you have written here many times when this topic has been debated.

Answer the points

Irony at its best and the worst misdirection yet made

You accused me of things on here and cannot find a single post where I have claimed to force any Muslim to do anything.

So I will ask again

What did I actually say?

No misdirection at all.

You want them not to wear the burkha? Or do you suddenly support them wearing it now?

I told you you who gave you the right to dictate what women can or cannot wear

And you will never answer this will you?

There's never any point in ever debating with you cause you keep changing the goal posts to suit your agenda

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:

Irony at its best and the worst misdirection yet made

You accused me of things on here and cannot find a single post where I have claimed to force any Muslim to do anything.

So I will ask again

What did I actually say?

No misdirection at all.

You want them not to wear the burkha? Or do you suddenly support them wearing it now?

I told you you who gave you the right to dictate what women can or cannot wear

And you will never answer this will you?

There's never any point in ever debating with you cause you keep changing the goal posts to suit your agenda

I hope for them to open their eyes, to the fact they are being controlled through fear sexy.

You think I am controlling them by questioning when they have no free will on this.

You then make a copout answer, avoiding everything I have said

Now I will post this again for you and show you clearly either support the subjucaction of women through certain beliefs of Islam, or reject them

Your choice


This clearly needs saying again

The choice is not on whether to wear, but on the belief they should wear. Thus they chose to believe that a version of Islam commands then to cover themselves up, otherwise its a sin. Of which those who do, believe if they do not, they will sin. Hence it will be a fear of a hell fire within Islam that is driving them to believe the command they must cover up.

Nobody should be stripped of wearing the hijab/burka, but to open her eyes and see how wrong it is, that fear is driving her to believe she is commanded to wear. Believing it is a sin not to cover up wearing the hijab. All of this is taught and made to make them believe they should through a fear. In order to believe some command written down 1400 years ago.

That she understands, that if this Allah existed. Where the claims is that she must cover up, to stop the sexual advances of men. Knowing full well, it does not deter men at all. As for example rapists, will rape any woman they choose as a victim, no matter how they are dressed. Which will do nothing to prevent them the sexual advances of men and from being sexually abused or raped.

Should lead her to the following conclusions.

Either the deity she believers in created a flaw in men unknowingly. A flaw that has some men rape and sexually abuse women. Making this god utterly incompetent, in-creating such a flaw unknowingly. Where even worse. Is then blaming the woman for this flaw, for how beautiful this deity created them. By then ordering them to cover up. Claiming this will prevent the sexual advances. Even though this actually does nothing to prevent the sexual advances of men. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Or this deity created men deliberately flawed. Knowing full well, some will rape some of them anyway. (pure evil). To then yet again blame women. For the beauty this deity has created themselves and command them to cover up. Knowing again, that this command will do nothing to deter the sexual advances of men. Thus playing a rather sick game with Muslim women. Fooling them to believe it will stop men, when it never will. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Thus showing how the Hijab is nothing more than born from the beliefs of men, in order to control women. Clearly not born from a supposed all loving God. 

So you will forgive me if I do not see the Hijab/Burka as a symbol of free expression or the empowerment of women, but the control and oppression of them.

Especially where many of their Muslims sisters are forced to wear

Didge wrote:

Didge wrote:This clearly needs saying again

The choice is not on whether to wear, but on the belief they should wear. Thus they chose to believe that a version of Islam commands then to cover themselves up, otherwise its a sin. Of which those who do, believe if they do not, they will sin. Hence it will be a fear of a hell fire within Islam that is driving them to believe the command they must cover up.

Nobody should be stripped of wearing the hijab/burka, but to open her eyes and see how wrong it is, that fear is driving her to believe she is commanded to wear. Believing it is a sin not to cover up wearing the hijab. All of this is taught and made to make them believe they should through a fear. In order to believe some command written down 1400 years ago.

That she understands, that if this Allah existed. Where the claims is that she must cover up, to stop the sexual advances of men. Knowing full well, it does not deter men at all. As for example rapists, will rape any woman they choose as a victim, no matter how they are dressed. Which will do nothing to prevent them the sexual advances of men and from being sexually abused or raped.

Should lead her to the following conclusions.

Either the deity she believers in created a flaw in men unknowingly. A flaw that has some men rape and sexually abuse women. Making this god utterly incompetent, in-creating such a flaw unknowingly. Where even worse. Is then blaming the woman for this flaw, for how beautiful this deity created them. By then ordering them to cover up. Claiming this will prevent the sexual advances. Even though this actually does nothing to prevent the sexual advances of men. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Or this deity created men deliberately flawed. Knowing full well, some will rape some of them anyway. (pure evil). To then yet again blame women. For the beauty this deity has created themselves and command them to cover up. Knowing again, that this command will do nothing to deter the sexual advances of men. Thus playing a rather sick game with Muslim women. Fooling them to believe it will stop men, when it never will. Even worse coerce them to wear with a threat of eternal hell fire, claiming its a sin not to cover up, yet again complete evil.

Thus showing how the Hijab is nothing more than born from the beliefs of men, in order to control women. Clearly not born from a supposed all loving God.

So you will forgive me if I do not see the Hijab/Burka as a symbol of free expression or the empowerment of women, but the control and oppression of them.

Especially where many of their Muslims sisters are forced to wear

Here you go Sexy

Show me where I am forcing anyone?

Thanks for providing this.

Have you re read this?

Clearly you are dictating what a woman should or shouldn't wear

Do you not understand this?

Who are you to question what they should wear?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Here you go Sexy

Show me where I am forcing anyone?

Thanks for providing this.

Have you re read this?

Clearly you are dictating what a woman should or shouldn't wear

Do you not understand this?

So where am forcing a woman what to do here?

Show me the sentence?

SEXY MAMA wrote:Who are you to question what they should wear?

I'm not.

I am questioning the belief, that makes them think they are at fault, when they are not.

You tell me how that is wrong?

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thanks for providing this.

Have you re read this?

Clearly you are dictating what a woman should or shouldn't wear

Do you not understand this?

So where am forcing a woman what to do here?

Show me the sentence?

Lol

Your whole essay is saying how wrong you believe it is.

Thus DICTATING that a woman SHOULDNT wear it.

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Who are you to question what they should wear?

I'm not.

I am questioning the belief, that makes them think they are at fault, when they are not.

You tell me how that is wrong?

Yes
Who are you to question that?

I don't question your belief or lack of.

Don't you see that you are dictating your belief on women who wear it?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Being an Atheist I understand your reasoning

But I disagree.

You think it's a sign of oppression because you have been bought up that way.

It isn't.

Some are forced some wear it very happily.

Why because THEY CAN and it's their free will.

See the irony here?

It's not as an atheist I think that way, it's as a non-Muslim I think that way.

Since it is exclusively Muslim women that wear this, that makes it a religious/culturally brainwashed 'choice'. No one outside the faith of Islam sees it as anything other than what I said.

Even in Thailand the site of the full body and face covering raises eyebrows (Thais rather funnily refer the women wearing them as penguins )

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

I see the irony, but I don't see the alternative.

The women who 'choose' to wear it, by default have a choice. So stopping them wearing it does zero harm.

On the flip side, those forced to wear it are liberated by the ban.

With the ban no one is seriously negatively impacted. Without the ban an unknown number of woman are seriously negatively impacted.

From that stand point it's hard to justify not banning it just because some like it.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


So where am forcing a woman what to do here?

Show me the sentence?

Lol

Your whole essay is saying how wrong you believe it is.

Thus DICTATING that a woman SHOULDNT wear it.

Double Dutch

Again I have not stated once what a woman should wear and at no point can you even show I have.

I have questioned a religious belief that instills fear into a women that they are at fault for their own beauty. That somehow they are at fault, according to the backward beliefs of Islam, for the sexual advances of men. That they must cover up to protect this.

That this is a belief that makes them believe this.

So I again ask, show me anywhere that I have told any Muslim women what they should wear?

I never have, but I can tell you who has?

Your religion

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


I'm not.

I am questioning the belief, that makes them think they are at fault, when they are not.

You tell me how that is wrong?

Yes
Who are you to question that?

I don't question your belief or lack of.

Don't you see that you are dictating your belief on women who wear it?

Show me any sentence where i am demanding what they should wear?

I dare you

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol

Your whole essay is saying how wrong you believe it is.

Thus DICTATING that a woman SHOULDNT wear it.

Double Dutch

Again I have not stated once what a woman should wear and at no point can you even show I have.

I have questioned a religious belief that instills fear into a women that they are at fault for their own beauty. That somehow they are at fault, according to the backward beliefs of Islam, for the sexual advances of men. That they must cover up to proect this.

This this is a belief that makes them believe this.

So I again ask, show me anywhere that I have told any Muslim women what they should wear?

I never have, but I can tell you who has?

Your religion

No my religion hasn't and that's the whole point you are not getting.

Dressing modestly is a hijab in itself.

The wearing of the niqaab or burkha is what women choose to wear themselves.

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Yes
Who are you to question that?

I don't question your belief or lack of.

Don't you see that you are dictating your belief on women who wear it?

Show me any sentence where i am demanding what they should wear?

I dare you

Don't play childish games with me FFS

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Double Dutch

Again I have not stated once what a woman should wear and at no point can you even show I have.

I have questioned a religious belief that instills fear into a women that they are at fault for their own beauty. That somehow they are at fault, according to the backward beliefs of Islam, for the sexual advances of men. That they must cover up to proect this.

This this is a belief that makes them believe this.

So I again ask, show me anywhere that I have told any Muslim women what they should wear?

I never have, but I can tell you who has?

Your religion

No my religion hasn't and that's the whole point you are not getting.

Dressing modestly is a hijab in itself.

The wearing of the niqaab or burkha is what women choose to wear themselves.

Your religion?

So you are admitting you have to dress modestly?

Why

Can you not be yourself

Why modest

The wearing of Burka and Niqaab is a belief.

If it was a choice, then why are not non-Muslim wearing this in abundance?

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

I see the irony, but I don't see the alternative.

The women who 'choose' to wear it, by default have a choice. So stopping them wearing it does zero harm.

On the flip side, those forced to wear it are liberated by the ban.

With the ban no one is seriously negatively impacted. Without the ban an unknown number of woman are seriously negatively impacted.

From that stand point it's hard to justify not banning it just because some like it.

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Show me any sentence where i am demanding what they should wear?

I dare you

Don't play childish games with me FFS

So you cannot back up your childish lies.

That is all i wanted to know

Just like you cannot state, Palestinians terrorists should not have Islamic buriels.

You expose your true nature sexy with every post.

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No my religion hasn't and that's the whole point you are not getting.

Dressing modestly is a hijab in itself.

The wearing of the niqaab or burkha is what women choose to wear themselves.

Your religion?

So you are admitting you have to dress modestly?

Why

Can you not be yourself

Why modest

The wearing of Burka and Niqaab is a belief.

If it was a choice, then why are not non-Muslim wearing this in abundance?

Lol now you are dictating what I should believe in!

Get over yourself Didge.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I see the irony, but I don't see the alternative.

The women who 'choose' to wear it, by default have a choice. So stopping them wearing it does zero harm.

On the flip side, those forced to wear it are liberated by the ban.

With the ban no one is seriously negatively impacted. Without the ban an unknown number of woman are seriously negatively impacted.

From that stand point it's hard to justify not banning it just because some like it.

You do realize that in western countries women are not forced to wear it.

The banning will only prove the negativity towards Muslims.

So what would you prefer?

Women forced to wear by a religion or women protected by law not forced to wear?

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Don't play childish games with me FFS

So you cannot back up your childish lies.

That is all i wanted to know

Just like you cannot state, Palestinians terrorists should not have Islamic buriels.

You expose your true nature sexy with every post.

Lol you are a bully Didge

And I don't tolerate people like you.

Grow the fuck up

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Your religion?

So you are admitting you have to dress modestly?

Why

Can you not be yourself

Why modest

The wearing of Burka and Niqaab is a belief.

If it was a choice, then why are not non-Muslim wearing this in abundance?

Lol now you are dictating what I should believe in!

Get over yourself Didge.

So again you avoid the questions and misdirect

All I see is you defending barbarity

So I will ask you a question

Do you think its okay for ISIS to enslave and rape women, which is backed up in the Quran?

ISIS women think this is normal and okay.

Just like Muslim women through Islam, thinking its right to feel they are the cause of the sexual advances of men?

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I understand why you don't like it

I friggin hate it

But dont you see the irony?

Women want to wear it but people 'forcing' them not too.

I see the irony, but I don't see the alternative.

The women who 'choose' to wear it, by default have a choice. So stopping them wearing it does zero harm.

On the flip side, those forced to wear it are liberated by the ban.

With the ban no one is seriously negatively impacted. Without the ban an unknown number of woman are seriously negatively impacted.

From that stand point it's hard to justify not banning it just because some like it.

well said