Why has there not been a single prosecution?

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:26 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541932/RUTH-RENDELL-My-horror-thousands-British-girls-undergoing-female-genital-mutilation-purity.html

FGM. It is illegal to do it in this country. It is illegal to allow your child to be taken out of the country to have it done elsewhere. It is being seen more often by health professionals. Yet there has never been one single prosecution WHY???

Before someone jumps in with some diversion about faith or religion I want to highlight a passage in the story We know now that FGM is an ancient practice, that it predates the Christian era and Islam and that it has nothing to do with any religious faith

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:31 am

You know exactly why, stop asking questions, grow some balls and give your opinion.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:40 am

My opinion on this is can be summarised as the question WHY? Every appalled sickened part of me just wants to know why when it is quite simply illegal for it to happen in any way.

I want the authorities to answer because there is no excuse.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:45 am

sphinx wrote:My opinion on this is can be summarised as the question WHY? Every appalled sickened part of me just wants to know why when it is quite simply illegal for it to happen in any way.

I want the authorities to answer because there is no excuse.

I agree it is appalling nobody has been convicted, which to me a law should be brought about if young girls are found to have been mutilated at a check up at a GP after going abroad where before they were fine, that it should be reported to the authorities and the parents arrested, as to me it is child abuse. The difficulty though with trying to prosecute them is proving which if not both parents had this done to their child. I cannot remember the case but 2 parents got small sentences for the abuse they gave to their child because they closed ranks and said nothing so they could not know who had done the abuse, will look it up for you

by SEXY MAMA Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:47 am

No body should accuse you Sphinx. It's this kind of PC fear that has got us in this disgusting mess in the first place.

This is a disgusting practice and as a 'civilised' country the perpetrators should have been dealt with harshly.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:52 am

Seeing as it is illlegal to allow a child to be taken out of the country etc etc I dont see why both cannot be prosecuted.

Also why the hell are medical professionals not recording incidence yet alone not reporting it? I mean I believe that there is a legal requirement for medical professionals to report gun shot injuries so why not a legal requirement to report FGM?

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:01 am

sphinx wrote:Seeing as it is illlegal to allow a child to be taken out of the country etc etc I dont see why both cannot be prosecuted.

Also why the hell are medical professionals not recording incidence yet alone not reporting it? I mean I believe that there is a legal requirement for medical professionals to report gun shot injuries so why not a legal requirement to report FGM?

Not saying both should not be prosecuted I am saying they should, but as seen from this other case, if they close ranks makes the case harder.

I agree I do not understand why they are not recording this, but again it may have something to do with patient confidentiality, which clearly needs looking at again if people are being let down by the system

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:13 am

I dont think a comparison can be made with the other case because that would be proving who did what - FGM is just a case of proving that is was allowed to happen. If a girl has been mutilated then her parents let it happen - the only possible defence is if the girl is rushed to hospital as soon as she arrives (back) in Britain. There is no way parents can claim they did not know it was happening to their child or claim they were unaware it had been done.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:35 am

sphinx wrote:I dont think a comparison can be made with the other case because that would be proving who did what - FGM is just a case of proving that is was allowed to happen. If a girl has been mutilated then her parents let it happen - the only possible defence is if the girl is rushed to hospital as soon as she arrives (back) in Britain. There is no way parents can claim they did not know it was happening to their child or claim they were unaware it had been done.

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:46 am

NemsAgain wrote:
sphinx wrote:I dont think a comparison can be made with the other case because that would be proving who did what - FGM is just a case of proving that is was allowed to happen. If a girl has been mutilated then her parents let it happen - the only possible defence is if the girl is rushed to hospital as soon as she arrives (back) in Britain. There is no way parents can claim they did not know it was happening to their child or claim they were unaware it had been done.

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

First point agree, second point a poor stereotype as if it is just Muslims that do this and worse claiming without any evidence that it has to do with not offending them, sorry Nems that is poor and why you are placing a poor view of all Muslims with that. This is about prosecuting those who commit this crime and back 100% something being done, as sphinx said this is nothing to do about religion, but some people from many different cultures who still practice this barbaric act

by SEXY MAMA Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:51 am

NemsAgain wrote:
sphinx wrote:I dont think a comparison can be made with the other case because that would be proving who did what - FGM is just a case of proving that is was allowed to happen. If a girl has been mutilated then her parents let it happen - the only possible defence is if the girl is rushed to hospital as soon as she arrives (back) in Britain. There is no way parents can claim they did not know it was happening to their child or claim they were unaware it had been done.

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

Offend the Muslims!

Very poor assumption there Nems. Its an African tradition.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:53 am

NemsAgain wrote:
sphinx wrote:I dont think a comparison can be made with the other case because that would be proving who did what - FGM is just a case of proving that is was allowed to happen. If a girl has been mutilated then her parents let it happen - the only possible defence is if the girl is rushed to hospital as soon as she arrives (back) in Britain. There is no way parents can claim they did not know it was happening to their child or claim they were unaware it had been done.

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

Its got nothing to do with the muslims - I highlighted that in the opening post. I mean it was practised in the USA by doctors until late 60s as a cure for female masturbation under the name clitorodectomy - google Patricia Robinett. The only reason it was not a regular surgical practice in the UK was because of an argument between 2 doctors.

Some Muslims do it yes - but most find it as abhorrent as you and me - and it is just as likely to be practised by Christians from the same geographic area as the Muslims who do it because it has much much stronger geographical cultural links than religious ones. It was happening before the birth of Mohammed. It was happening before the birth of Christ. It is not religious.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:55 am

SEXY MAMA wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

Offend the Muslims!

Very poor assumption there Nems. Its an African tradition.

How many girls subjected to FGM in the last 10 years in the uK were not Muslim?

by SEXY MAMA Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:58 am

NemsAgain wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:

Offend the Muslims!

Very poor assumption there Nems. Its an African tradition.

How many girls subjected to FGM in the last 10 years in the uK were not Muslim?

I will have to look into it and let you know.

by SEXY MAMA Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:10 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/leyla-hussein/fgm-female-genital-mutilation_b_4490603.html

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:21 pm

sphinx wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

A child has suffered fgm prosecute the parents
As to why it doesnt happen, it doesnt happen because we are too scared to offend the muslims.

Its got nothing to do with the muslims - I highlighted that in the opening post. I mean it was practised in the USA by doctors until late 60s as a cure for female masturbation under the name clitorodectomy - google Patricia Robinett. The only reason it was not a regular surgical practice in the UK was because of an argument between 2 doctors.

Some Muslims do it yes - but most find it as abhorrent as you and me - and it is just as likely to be practised by Christians from the same geographic area as the Muslims who do it because it has much much stronger geographical cultural links than religious ones. It was happening before the birth of Mohammed. It was happening before the birth of Christ. It is not religious.

Agreed Spinx

What is worrying to me though is proving guilt onto the parents, why it is so difficult to obtain a conviction. For one you are solely reliant on the victim speaking out against the parents. Two it happens mainly abroad, thus you are left with the evidence it has happened, but not enough evidence to convict the parents and they could deny all knowledge and claim their daughter was kidnapped or some other bullshit, knowing full well it was them. The other thing going back to the GP, is if then it became part of law for them to report any girls found to have been mutilated, that then those involved would stop attending the doctors, which could place the victim at even more risk. I am at a losss myself how to overcome the difficulties here, but something needs to change and fast, one way would be drilling into the children at school to report this, because those who suffer this are being abused

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:21 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Its got nothing to do with the muslims - I highlighted that in the opening post. I mean it was practised in the USA by doctors until late 60s as a cure for female masturbation under the name clitorodectomy - google Patricia Robinett. The only reason it was not a regular surgical practice in the UK was because of an argument between 2 doctors.

Some Muslims do it yes - but most find it as abhorrent as you and me - and it is just as likely to be practised by Christians from the same geographic area as the Muslims who do it because it has much much stronger geographical cultural links than religious ones. It was happening before the birth of Mohammed. It was happening before the birth of Christ. It is not religious.

Agreed Spinx

What is worrying to me though is proving guilt onto the parents, why it is so difficult to obtain a conviction. For one you are solely reliant on the victim speaking out against the parents. Two it happens mainly abroad, thus you are left with the evidence it has happened, but not enough evidence to convict the parents and they could deny all knowledge and claim their daughter was kidnapped or some other bullshit, knowing full well it was them. The other thing going back to the GP, is if then it became part of law for them to report any girls found to have been mutilated, that then those involved would stop attending the doctors, which could place the victim at even more risk. I am at a losss myself how to overcome the difficulties here, but something needs to change and fast, one way would be drilling into the children at school to report this, because those who suffer this are being abused

It should not be reliant on just the victim speaking out - there are signs and symptoms that will alert health care providers and teachers to the possibility (although the government is cutting back on guidelines to help teachers deal with suspicions)
That is has happened is sufficient evidence for "allowed to happen" charge
Any claims such as kidnapping are easily disproved by absence of it being reported, checking background, etc and failure to seek medical assistance at earliest possible time
Avoidance of health care is a warning in itself. Besides which unlike gun shot wounds where you can find medical professionals willing to break the law the chance of finding a medical professional willing to hide this is far lower
Last year UKIP announced policy to make education about the subject obligatory in all schools for all pupils - this was at the same time the Department of education decided it was reducing its guidelines and support.

What we cannot continue ignoring is that we do know it is happening - that schools and health care professionals are seeing it in front of them. There are even girls and women who are speaking out and are seeking help and protection. We can produce figures on its occurrence but for some reason the authorities are refusing to act despite having the tools.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:32 pm

Medical anthropologist Carla Obermeyer writes:]

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia. In CDI [Côte d'Ivoire], the prevalence is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women ... In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups ... Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. - Carla Obermeyer,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

It really has got to be stopped, but as it is normally mother, aunts, grandmothers etc that arrange for the child to have it, there has got to be a massive world wide education programme.

This is a world wide group trying to stop it:

http://16days.thepixelproject.net/16-organisations-charities-and-grassroots-groups-working-to-stop-fgm/

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:38 pm

Sassy wrote:Medical anthropologist Carla Obermeyer writes:]

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia. In CDI [Côte d'Ivoire], the prevalence is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women ... In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups ... Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. - Carla Obermeyer,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

It really has got to be stopped, but as it is normally mother, aunts, grandmothers etc that arrange for the child to have it, there has got to be a massive world wide education programme.

This is a world wide group trying to stop it:

http://16days.thepixelproject.net/16-organisations-charities-and-grassroots-groups-working-to-stop-fgm/

Our government has set up the tools to make a difference in this country - namely it being illegal to allow it happen even if that is outside this country - but for some reason the tools are not being used.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:41 pm

The tools have always been there as it is child abuse, so they really need to get their act together.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:47 pm

Sassy wrote:The tools have always been there as it is child abuse, so they really need to get their act together.

There was always the problem under child abuse that two parents could both blame the other - and it was further muddied if the child was taken out the country (most British laws are funny about things done in other places which are legal there - for instance smoking dope in Amsterdam) so it was made specific and clarified - it is illegal to mutilate a child or allow a child to be mutilated either in this country or by taking them out of the country.

I still ask why no one is being prosecuted.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:55 pm

You and me both, and it's not because of upsetting muslims as some will start screaming, because it's problem with African christians in this country as well.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:58 pm

Sassy wrote:You and me both, and it's not because of upsetting muslims as some will start screaming, because it's problem with African christians in this country as well.

Some people will never listen to that - they almost want it to be "the Muslims" so bad that they refuse to acknowledge anything different.

I did try highlighting that in the OP - but not everyone pays attention.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:01 pm

sphinx wrote:
Sassy wrote:You and me both, and it's not because of upsetting muslims as some will start screaming, because it's problem with African christians in this country as well.

Some people will never listen to that - they almost want it to be "the Muslims" so bad that they refuse to acknowledge anything different.

I did try highlighting that in the OP - but not everyone pays attention.

I know, there are some who are so obviously prejudiced but deny it, they're the worst!

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:05 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Agreed Spinx

What is worrying to me though is proving guilt onto the parents, why it is so difficult to obtain a conviction. For one you are solely reliant on the victim speaking out against the parents. Two it happens mainly abroad, thus you are left with the evidence it has happened, but not enough evidence to convict the parents and they could deny all knowledge and claim their daughter was kidnapped or some other bullshit, knowing full well it was them. The other thing going back to the GP, is if then it became part of law for them to report any girls found to have been mutilated, that then those involved would stop attending the doctors, which could place the victim at even more risk. I am at a losss myself how to overcome the difficulties here, but something needs to change and fast, one way would be drilling into the children at school to report this, because those who suffer this are being abused

It should not be reliant on just the victim speaking out - there are signs and symptoms that will alert health care providers and teachers to the possibility (although the government is cutting back on guidelines to help teachers deal with suspicions)
That is has happened is sufficient evidence for "allowed to happen" charge
Any claims such as kidnapping are easily disproved by absence of it being reported, checking background, etc and failure to seek medical assistance at earliest possible time
Avoidance of health care is a warning in itself. Besides which unlike gun shot wounds where you can find medical professionals willing to break the law the chance of finding a medical professional willing to hide this is far lower
Last year UKIP announced policy to make education about the subject obligatory in all schools for all pupils - this was at the same time the Department of education decided it was reducing its guidelines and support.

What we cannot continue ignoring is that we do know it is happening - that schools and health care professionals are seeing it in front of them. There are even girls and women who are speaking out and are seeking help and protection. We can produce figures on its occurrence but for some reason the authorities are refusing to act despite having the tools.

Jesus Sphinx I agree with all your points but what you are missing is how the law works, and finding people guilty where a crime is mainly committed abroad is difficult to prosecute. This goes back to me point how defense lawyers look for loopholes and will get people off on technicalities. I have said more needs to be done but then we also have to be able to prove in a court of law and this is the difficult part

Oh please don't bring in any political bullshit about this, UKIP are a joke, they have no sound economic policies and this is about how to change the law.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:12 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

It should not be reliant on just the victim speaking out - there are signs and symptoms that will alert health care providers and teachers to the possibility (although the government is cutting back on guidelines to help teachers deal with suspicions)
That is has happened is sufficient evidence for "allowed to happen" charge
Any claims such as kidnapping are easily disproved by absence of it being reported, checking background, etc and failure to seek medical assistance at earliest possible time
Avoidance of health care is a warning in itself. Besides which unlike gun shot wounds where you can find medical professionals willing to break the law the chance of finding a medical professional willing to hide this is far lower
Last year UKIP announced policy to make education about the subject obligatory in all schools for all pupils - this was at the same time the Department of education decided it was reducing its guidelines and support.

What we cannot continue ignoring is that we do know it is happening - that schools and health care professionals are seeing it in front of them. There are even girls and women who are speaking out and are seeking help and protection. We can produce figures on its occurrence but for some reason the authorities are refusing to act despite having the tools.

Jesus Sphinx I agree with all your points but what you are missing is how the law works, and finding people guilty where a crime is mainly committed abroad is difficult to prosecute. This goes back to me point how defense lawyers look for loopholes and will get people off on technicalities. I have said more needs to be done but then we also have to be able to prove in a court of law and this is the difficult part

Oh please don't bring in any political bullshit about this, UKIP are a joke, they have no sound economic policies and this is about how to change the law.

I do not see what loophole can be applied to a girl found mutilated - except for situation where the parents have rushed her to hospital at the first opportunity there is no way to deny they have allowed it by failing to do anything about it.

I was not bringing in political bullshit - I was pointing out there is at least one politically active group in this country calling for education on the matter for all school children an criticizing the department of education reducing support for teachers and education professionals. I strongly suspect there are many others - I am just not familiar with them.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Read the list on the link I gave Sphinx, and they are just the one's affiliated to 16 Pixels.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:23 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Jesus Sphinx I agree with all your points but what you are missing is how the law works, and finding people guilty where a crime is mainly committed abroad is difficult to prosecute. This goes back to me point how defense lawyers look for loopholes and will get people off on technicalities. I have said more needs to be done but then we also have to be able to prove in a court of law and this is the difficult part

Oh please don't bring in any political bullshit about this, UKIP are a joke, they have no sound economic policies and this is about how to change the law.

I do not see what loophole can be applied to a girl found mutilated - except for situation where the parents have rushed her to hospital at the first opportunity there is no way to deny they have allowed it by failing to do anything about it.

I was not bringing in political bullshit - I was pointing out there is at least one politically active group in this country calling for education on the matter for all school children an criticizing the department of education reducing support for teachers and education professionals. I strongly suspect there are many others - I am just not familiar with them.

I will play devil's advocate for you
First loophole.

Parents claim their daughter was staying at relatives for a few days, whilst they went off sight seeing, when they came back they were horrified and were too worried to go to the Police in case they were framed for this.
How do you check this evidence, when it is in another country and all of this family close ranks?

So how do you find them guilty?

The point is you have to find evidence to convict them and sadly as seen this is difficult and maybe we need to take a leaf out of the book of the French who have made 100 convictions, even though that is sadly not enough.

This is an interesting article on that fact

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/convictions-for-female-genital-mutilation-france-100-uk-nil-8722934.html

Also they are getting close to prosecuting it seems, though still this to me is not enough

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23982767

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:32 pm

Sorry afraid of being framed is not an excuse - if they were innocent they would have rushed their child to medical attention at the highest speed and would have reported their relatives to the police immediately.
Or a parent who does not seek medical attention for an injured child is breaking the law anyway so prosecute them for that.

Finally I am saying prosecute not convict - it is suppose to be up the jury to decide if the claims of fear of being framed are legitimate.

The fact is that authorities could prosecute - but they are choosing not to. WHY?

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:37 pm

sphinx wrote:Sorry afraid of being framed is not an excuse - if they were innocent they would have rushed their child to medical attention at the highest speed and would have reported their relatives to the police immediately.
Or a parent who does not seek medical attention for an injured child is breaking the law anyway so prosecute them for that.

Finally I am saying prosecute not convict - it is suppose to be up the jury to decide if the claims of fear of being framed are legitimate.

The fact is that authorities could prosecute - but they are choosing not to. WHY?

Its not an excuse either, its made up bullshit by the lawyer to get them off that is the point you are not getting here, they are as guilty as hell, but the point I am trying to get to you is proving that, and it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. I am not asking you your view on the matter, I m asking you to understand how you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are guilty. If it is was that simple countless by now would have been prosecuted.

Again I agree that the authorities should prosecute, but this is not the point I am making, I am trying to show you how difficult it is to prove. Though from the link they seem to have some ideas which I hope can bring countless before prosecution. They are trying to prosecute from the link I just gave you, clearly the point again is how difficult it is, but they seem to have something up their sleeve, which I do hope works!

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:48 pm

You are missing my point - nobody knows what the level of reasonable doubt is in this crime because nobody has ever put it in front of a jury. We have a jury system so 12 ordinary people can listen to all the evidence and decide - not so a bunch of executives can sit around discussing what those 12 people are going to decide if such and such an argument is made

In fact I actually suspect part of the reason these cases are not being put in front of juries is the fear that reasonable doubt is not going to come into it full stop - fear that those 12 ordinary people are going to take one look at the damage done to a little girl and convict regardless of what defence is presented.

Besides which if the defence is going to be "framed" then all the prosecution have to do is put child endangerment on the table as well - then let the jury decide if the parents were responsible for letting the mutilation happen, and/or responsible for failing to get proper medical attention and failing to report their relatives for the mutilation.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:57 pm

sphinx wrote:You are missing my point - nobody knows what the level of reasonable doubt is in this crime because nobody has ever put it in front of a jury. We have a jury system so 12 ordinary people can listen to all the evidence and decide - not so a bunch of executives can sit around discussing what those 12 people are going to decide if such and such an argument is made

In fact I actually suspect part of the reason these cases are not being put in front of juries is the fear that reasonable doubt is not going to come into it full stop - fear that those 12 ordinary people are going to take one look at the damage done to a little girl and convict regardless of what defence is presented.

Besides which if the defence is going to be "framed" then all the prosecution have to do is put child endangerment on the table as well - then let the jury decide if the parents were responsible for letting the mutilation happen, and/or responsible for failing to get proper medical attention and failing to report their relatives for the mutilation.

Oh for fuck sake, its like speaking to the wall at times with you, as you never take on the points of other people, so enjoy talking to yourself

The fact you keep missing here how hard it is to do, now we can all do as you do as you have so much free time on your hands to sit and ponder over many situations and look at them further but the reality here is which you miss everytime is that I have agreed with most of your points but you fail to understand why it is so difficult and am bored because you fail to recognise that and no doubt will never recognise that so the debate has become not only moot but dull to say the least. You clearly also do not understand law either how to prove beyond reasonable doubt

Bored now and later's, enjoy not taking on other views points when do with yourse

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:02 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:You are missing my point - nobody knows what the level of reasonable doubt is in this crime because nobody has ever put it in front of a jury. We have a jury system so 12 ordinary people can listen to all the evidence and decide - not so a bunch of executives can sit around discussing what those 12 people are going to decide if such and such an argument is made

In fact I actually suspect part of the reason these cases are not being put in front of juries is the fear that reasonable doubt is not going to come into it full stop - fear that those 12 ordinary people are going to take one look at the damage done to a little girl and convict regardless of what defence is presented.
That is bullshit, you are basically saying the prosecutors know they will get a conviction but are now allowing abuse to continue, that is an appalling claim to make, as if they if they believed they could get a conviction are now not bothering based on some poor belief you have which also has no logical sense being as they have been ages trying to find ways to convict people. That point was low and poor and is as bad as Nems claim they are not doing so in case it may offend Muslims

Besides which if the defence is going to be "framed" then all the prosecution have to do is put child endangerment on the table as well - then let the jury decide if the parents were responsible for letting the mutilation happen, and/or responsible for failing to get proper medical attention and failing to report their relatives for the mutilation.

Oh for fuck sake, its like speaking to the wall at times with you, as you never take on the points of other people, so enjoy talking to yourself

The fact you keep missing here how hard it is to do, now we can all do as you do as you have so much free time on your hands to sit and ponder over many situations and look at them further but the reality here is which you miss everytime is that I have agreed with most of your points but you fail to understand why it is so difficult and am bored because you fail to recognise that and no doubt will never recognise that so the debate has become not only moot but dull to say the least. You clearly also do not understand law either how to prove beyond reasonable doubt

Bored now and later's, enjoy not taking on other views points you have posted yourself

by Original Quill Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:18 pm

Nobody has yet described what constitutes FGM?? The term has no meaning as there are a lot of surgical procedures that can be referred to--some are beneficial, some are not. It depends on the circumstances. It's like condemning all mastectomies or all amputations...saying they should be unlawful. It's nonsense to make blanket statements like that.

However, that said, no surgical procedure should be performed without an immediate, clinical necessity. That means symptoms present, and a credible diagnosis of an immediate ailment or injury. That is in fact the mandate of the hippocratic oath. All prophylactic, or preemptive surgeries should be unlawful. There is no medical justification that applies to all people, all the time.

That's the definition of malpractice.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:27 pm

http://www.dofeve.org/types-of-fgm.html]

There you go, from Daughters of Eve, with pictures.

by Original Quill Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:38 pm

404 - Page Not Found

Just specify the surgical procedure you are referring to. FGM is a meaningless term.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:41 pm

FGM is not a meaningless term:

http://www.dofeve.org/types-of-fgm.html

I just brought it up no trouble or put in Google Types of FGM - Daughters of Eve

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:42 pm

Sassy wrote:FGM is not a meaningless term:

http://www.dofeve.org/types-of-fgm.html

I just brought it up no trouble or put in Google Types of FGM - Daughters of Eve

For some reason the first link, even though exactly the same, doesn't work. This one does.

FGM is NEVER done for beneficial purposes.

by Clarkson Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:38 pm

I don't know which s more evil the parents allowing heir daughters to be mutilated ad denying them a sex life or the Liberal left PC merchants who have chosen to turn the other way.

In any other context were an act of mutilation to a child carried out a prosecution would ensue. Because of this ridiculous hands off approach driven by a distorted view of multi culturalism we hve girls lives being ruined.

This crime lies firmly at he door of the liberal left and in years to come we shall look back I horror at what was done in the name of Political Correctness.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:24 pm

Oh do shut up you silly old fool, many people have been fighting this for years, trying to get people to take notice and the people who have been ignoring it are men, from every spectrum. The fight against it has been going on since the 1960s all over the world. The work of Waris Dirie and the Desert Flower Foundation has been inspirational. The UN have a huge programme to stop FGM and it is working so far. Estimates released earlier last year show that, since 2008, when the UNFPA-UNICEF Joint Programme on FGM/C was established, more and more communities have abandoned the practice. In 2012 alone, a total of 1,775 communities across Africa publicly declared their commitment to end FGM/C.

And in countries that practice it more and more people disagree with it. It was never going to be easy, because it's a device that is used to control women and mothers etc have been brainwashed into thinking that their daughters are unmarriageable without it. But that belief is changing. It's probably going to be the hardest thing to eradicate, because it's a deep seated belief stretching back hundreds of years and we need to be much more vigilant and we must prosecute when we can. But the key to it has always been education and we must get social workers, teachers and doctors to speak up more.

God, when you still get a supposedly highly educated man to say: The term has no meaning as there are a lot of surgical procedures that can be referred to--some are beneficial, some are not about it, then you realise the extent of the problem.

by veya_victaous Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:32 pm

I am going to stir the pot. Evil or Very Mad

Why is it Wrong to mutilate a Female child genitals but ok to mutilate a Male child’s genitals?

Both are done for Traditional Cultural reasons, Both have no beneficial medical purpose (in the vast majority of the population) Both are the Exact same thing, i.e Cutting up a child’s genitals to reduce sexual gratification. (given Female is a more extreme reduction)

Why on Earth is either accepted in a civilized society with modern Medicine and scientific knowledge?
(it's not like unwanted pregnancy is an issue, they can just get an abortion)

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:42 pm

I don't agree with male circumcision either Veya, but you can't say they are the same thing. Male circumcision does not stop a man having a decent sex life, it doesn't cause all the medical complications, like severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, infertility as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths.

Bodies should be left the way they are, male as well as female, because it is being recognised that the foreskin they cut away in males is just as important as the rest of the member, but the acute medical complications and the psycho-sexual problems that is caused to girls, never mind the ones that actually die from it, is a different kettle of fish.

by veya_victaous Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:23 pm

@sassy
I did conceed that FGM is worse but at the core they are the same.

Cutting up Babies Genitals Evil or Very Mad

Is Evil in every sense of the word.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:26 pm

It certainly is!

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:35 pm

I believe there are far more instances where male circumcision is medically necessary with next to no medical reasons for female genital surgery.

by veya_victaous Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:47 pm

@sphinx
there are a few but legit cases are very very rare.

Like FGM it is a cultural/religious thing. and Barbaric all the same.
there is not real defense for "Cutting up Babies Genitals" regardless of gender.

by Guest Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:52 pm

Have to say, my grandson had to have it done at 12, we talked about it a lot with him first, he had a very tight foreskin that was causing him a lot of pain and we tried everything else poor little soul, but in the end it was the only thing. Funnily enough, friends husband had it done at 40 for the same reason, lets say when he got really aroused it went through and couldn't come back, had to go to the doc in agony. But even so, don't think it should be done as a matter of course.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:21 am

I dont think legit cases are very rare - not common and it should never be done as a matter of course but I worry about boys who do have to have it done being picked on. I mean in the USA where it is common for it to be done the uncircumcised lads can get bullied - here in the UK it might work the other way around especially if the message it was very rare for there to be a true medical reason was pushed. I mean off the top of my head I can think of the tight foreskin sassy said about, repeated balanitis (inflammation under it) and hypospadias where the urethra exit is malformed and/or misplaced.

by Original Quill Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:03 pm

veya_victaous wrote:I am going to stir the pot.

Why is it Wrong to mutilate a Female child genitals but ok to mutilate a Male child’s genitals?

Both are done for Traditional Cultural reasons, Both have no beneficial medical purpose (in the vast majority of the population) Both are the Exact same thing, i.e Cutting up a child’s genitals to reduce sexual gratification. (given Female is a more extreme reduction)

Why on Earth is either accepted in a civilized society with modern Medicine and scientific knowledge?
(it's not like unwanted pregnancy is an issue, they can just get an abortion)

I couldn't agree more.

The reason I resist the term FGM is that it groups a variety of surgical procedures, some beneficial, some not. Generally, there are three procedures: a labia rescission, a hoodectomy and a clitorectomy. The clitorectomy is the complete removal of the clitoris, which is homologous to the penis...ergo, it's the same as cutting off the penis. This is the only procedure that most people are talking about, and should be unlawful in all instances. So let's talk about clitorectomies, and put the other procedures aside. Better than throwing the baby out with the bath.

First, a hoodectomy is the removal of the prepuce, the covering of the clitoris (homologous to the foreskin--in fact, it is also called the prepuce in a male as well). Second, a labia rescission is the reduction of the labia minora. In some women the labia become quite pronounced and interfere with intercourse. So, a reduction is in fact a legitimate surgical procedure. When you talk about FGM you are grouping these quite different surgical procedures together, and suddenly you are talking nonsense.

veya wrote:given Female is a more extreme reduction

It is a total value statement to state that (male) circumcision is less severe. Putting aside the fact that there is virtually no justification for circumcision...in fact, circumcision of the male penis drastically reduces pleasure for the female during intercourse. In penetration, the male foreskin interacts with the labia to create a "gliding mechanism". http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/ The gliding mechanism prevents the abrasive pain, or scraping, that women often experience with a circumcised penis.

Granted, circumcision is not life-threatening, nor is a labia rescission, but to say one function is more important than the other is rubbish. Both are surgical procedures that are appropriate when clinically indicated.

What should be outlawed is the routine performance of the procedure on small children. First, it is a violation of international law to perform any surgery on someone without consent. Since any excision is permanent, this means that you should wait until a person is 18-years, or age-of-majority, and gain consent before doing any but emergency procedures. Second, is serves no purpose whatsoever.

Over the past century people have invented a lot of excuses for performing preemptive, prophylactic surgery on young boy's penises. This barbaric practice has no justification in fact. At first, circumcision was done to curb the evils of masturbation; but, it turns out masturbation is quite normal. Then, it was repackaged as a hygiene issue; but a massive study by the US Navy showed that there was absolutely no reason for concern. Moreover, the foreskin on the penis serves a variety of functions, so to needlessly remove it is a net loss. http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

Ultimately, the most barbaric practice is when it is done on an innocent child, without consent. Preemptive surgery is prophylactic in nature, proponents argue. Let me suggest an analogy: In the US, over 10,000 women a year die from breast cancer. One-third of all women will contract some form of breast cancer in their lives. Nevertheless, we would never think of preemptively performing radical mastectomies on three-day old little girls. Yet, in the face of a far less threat, that is precisely what we do to little boys in the US. Granted, where circumcision was once performed on over 90% of all small boys, it is now down to under 50% of young boys. But given that there is absolutely no need, it is simply a cruel joke that the culture hands back to us in the face of our own folly.

by Guest Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:07 pm

And there you have the ignorance 'some beneficiary, some not'. I put up the link but you have ignored it. There is no beneficiary FGM, it is normally done to little girls, without anaesthetic, with razor blades, it is mutilation and causes terrible medical problems and deaths, when it is done, and later in survivors, in childbirth and the death of babies during birth.

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