The gay community is in denial about Islamism

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

It is almost two months since Omar Mateen walked around the Pulse nightclub in Florida, gunning people down while shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’.  During the assault Mateen spoke to American law enforcement and swore allegiance to Isis.  Frustratingly Omar Mateen failed to call the group ‘so-called Islamic State’, thus betraying a woeful lack of linguistic sensitivity among his other crimes.

A few days later, very much in the shadow of these events, there was a ‘gay pride’ parade in New York.  The huge banner leading the parade at the front read ‘Republican hate kills’.  That is because after a moment’s stunned surprise the American gay rights movement did what all other Western gay rights movements have done, and decided to assiduously duck the issue of Islamic homophobia.  Having spent so many years believing that there was nothing more hateful than a Republican, when someone shouting praise to Allah and swearing allegiance to Islamic State killed 49 gay people America’s gay movement didn’t even bother to commission a new rainbow banner.

As I wrote at the time, although the Western gay press has understandable historical qualms about Christianity it also has a history of dismissing any and all concerns about Islam.  So in the wake of Orlando the gay press was filled not with pieces warning gay people about Islamic gay-hate, but pieces going out of their way to warn people against linking the massacre to Islam or Muslims.  In particular there was a flurry of articles warning gay people not to become ‘haters’.  Which is only the gay version of a wider Western sickness.  You got attacked?  Be careful you don’t become a bigot now.

At the weekend I picked up a copy of the UK gay magazine Attitude – a sort of post-Orlando memorial edition – which showed nothing had changed.  The aim of the edition was not just to avoid treading on any sore Islamic toes, but to deliberately avoid the subject of Islam.  Well these people, as Martin Amis once said in a related context, are disappearing up the fundament of the people who want to kill them.  They should enjoy it while it lasts.  The fact that a majority of British Muslims want being gay in Britain to be made illegal strikes me as a salient and troubling fact even if I can’t seem to get anyone else interested in the point.

Still, perhaps I can recommend some reading material to the gay panjandrums and their straight ‘allies’?  This recommendation is probably not on their usual reading list, but it is the latest issue of the Isis publication ‘Dabiq’ (if you wish to insert your own ‘so-calleds’ into that sentence then please do so).  Although the cover of this latest issue of the magazine is dedicated to the issue of ‘Breaking the cross’ (the Isis belief that Christianity must be destroyed) gays who do not care about this are welcome to flick beyond the cover story.  On page 30 they will find a most illuminating piece about the Orlando nightclub massacre.  It is far more informative than anything that can be found in Gay Times, the Advocate, or Attitude.  It is called ‘Why we hate you and why we fight you.’  The reasons are clearly laid out.

Reason one is because the West is full of ‘disbelievers’ who ‘reject the oneness of Allah’.  Reason two is because ‘your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited’.  Reason three is that ‘in the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and creator’.  And so on and so on.  If you have got this far then you are probably worried, like me, by the lack of editorial talent in the Isis camp (or the ‘so-called Isis, so-called camp’).  But go back a step and you will find something even more worrying.  Read again in a little more detail point two – the one about permitting things that ‘Allah’ has forbidden.  I quote the full paragraph:

‘We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.  In doing so, you desire to rob Allah of his right to be obeyed and you wish to usurp that right for yourselves.  “Legislation is not but for Allah” (Yusuf 40).  Your secular liberalism has led you to tolerate and even support “gay rights”, to allow alcohol, drugs, fornication, gambling, and usury to become widespread, and to encourage the people to mock those who denounce these filthy sins and vices. As such, we wage war against you to stop you from spreading your disbelief and debauchery – your secularism and nationalism, your perverted liberal values, your Christianity and atheism – and all the depravity and corruption they entail. You’ve made it your mission to “liberate” Muslim societies; we’ve made it our mission to fight off your influence and protect mankind from your misguided concepts and your deviant way of life.’

Interesting, isn’t it?  So while the gay press in the UK is trying to make the Orlando massacre about ‘toxic masculinity’ or ‘Islamophobia’ and the US gay rights movement is trying to make it about Marco Rubio, Isis are saying precisely why they want people to attack the West.  One of the reasons they want to attack the West is because of the gays.  Of course there might be some conservatives in America and Britain who respond to such things by saying, ‘crikey – perhaps we ought to clean up our act and go easy on all the perversion, drinking, gambling and gay clubbing’.  But most people – any self-respecting people – will turn around and say ‘screw you’.

I’m not a betting man, but because Isis are so opposed to gambling I’m willing to start.  So in that spirit I would like to take bets: how much longer do people think that gay ‘community leaders’ can keep this denial up for?


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/gay-community-denial-islamism/

[veya_victaous]

What brainwashing am I advocating exactly, Zack?

You want to groom children to think homosexuality is okay.

No different to teaching children to think homosexuality is not okay.

You're being a hypocrite.

Name one reason why it is not okay, that doesn't come back to a dumb ass sky giant

You prove that Religion brainwashes.

[Guest]

Absurd reasoning

Athiesm is just no belief, and would be part of religious education, of which nobody has statd to deny.
As of yet I have seen no athiest organisation running a school and if there was I would be against also, as it has to be a neutral school.
So there is no endless cycle, this is very straight forward.

All schools are run neutrally based not by any religious of political belief system etc.

Atheism is a belief, Stop crouching atheism purely in Abrahamistic terms.
If religion was dead then atheism becomes a belief in existence without purpose, versus existence with a purpose

And it too should be 'banned'
in favor of teaching how to learn, not what has been learned so far.

Utterly and completely wrong

Athiesm is not a belief, as they do not have a belief based around athiesm itself they simple do not believe in deities.
As such things have no evidnce that they exist

So you view point has no bases or reason.

So tell me what is the belief system of athiesm made up of?

Errrr no beliefits i not a belif in existance either, with or without religion, that is complete gibberish, yet again.
Show me the set of belief systems, athiests adhere to that is universal with them all?

One thing is blatantly clear you clearly fear reason just like most religious people do.

Doh

Nobody stated that religion should be banned as a lesson, only that schools should not be run by organisations that are political, religiously motivated etc. It taks 2 seconds to teach about athiesm in school as well and in one sentence.

lol but we can easily expand on where your beliefs originate from

If you want to worship the Sun as a God for exampl like the Aten as the ancient Eygptians, who's symbol was the sun and the forerunner of Judaism, then be my guest lol
"Goodness gracious great balls of fire"


Please stop infesting the site with gibberish and nonsnse

[Ben Reilly]

Hey Didge, you remember when a guy came around knocking on your door, asking if you'd let him talk for a while about atheism, and what it could do for you?

Never mind, let's just meet up tomorrow at our atheist worship gathering and sing some traditional atheist songs, so that we don't forget to believe in atheism ...

Here's a good one:

[Ben Reilly]

What brainwashing am I advocating exactly, Zack?

You want to groom children to think homosexuality is okay.

No different to teaching children to think homosexuality is not okay.

You're being a hypocrite.

Name one reason why it is not okay, that doesn't come back to a dumb ass sky giant

You prove that Religion brainwashes.

If I had children to groom, I'd tell them not to worry about things that don't hurt anybody.

[Guest]

Hey Didge, you remember when a guy came around knocking on your door, asking if you'd let him talk for a while about atheism, and what it could do for you?

Never mind, let's just meet up tomorrow at our atheist worship gathering and sing some traditional atheist songs, so that we don't forget to believe in atheism ...

Here's a good one:

+1

[Guest]

I have to say those posts above by Ben, has really set me up for the whole day, as I am still laughing

So thanks Ben 

Catch you all later

[eddie]

I'd like to know what Zack meant by "doing gay"?

[HoratioTarr]

There's no point in teaching anyone that homosexuality is not OK, or that it's OK. You can only teach them that they can't discriminate/beat up/abuse anyone for being gay.

Being gay and doing gay are 2 different things.  

Being gay is not like being black or any other race.

You can be black but there's no such thing as "doing black".

Doing gay? You mean the sex act? Being gay is exactly like being black. You're born that way. You cannot choose. Basically, what you're displaying here is your own fear and disgust of male homosexuality. Do you find lesbians as abhorrent? I bet you don't.

[Eilzel]

Think Zack's views here kind of highlight the problem in some schools tbh. It is a very discrete, cleverly veiled intolerance. No problem with gay feelings in Islam guys, as long as you stay single and repress those feelings forever!

[Raggamuffin]

Think Zack's views here kind of highlight the problem in some schools tbh. It is a very discrete, cleverly veiled intolerance. No problem with gay feelings in Islam guys, as long as you stay single and repress those feelings forever!

He might not have picked up that view from school, and he might not have that view just because he's a Muslim. Plenty of non-religious people don't approve of homosexuality, and plenty of religious people don't care about it.

[Eilzel]

You're right on both counts, sometimes. Though it usually religious reasons and generally non religious people have no problem. But yes there are some.

For Zack, well we'll see what he says won't we

[eddie]

Zack I'm interested in the "being gay / doing gay" phrase you used. Im sure I know what you mean but can you clarify, as I don't want to assume.

[Raggamuffin]

I would have thought the meaning was fairly obvious.

[veya_victaous]

Absurd reasoning

Athiesm is just no belief, and would be part of religious education, of which nobody has statd to deny.
As of yet I have seen no athiest organisation running a school and if there was I would be against also, as it has to be a neutral school.
So there is no endless cycle, this is very straight forward.

All schools are run neutrally based not by any religious of political belief system etc.

Atheism is a belief, Stop crouching atheism purely in Abrahamistic terms.
If religion was dead then atheism becomes a belief in existence without purpose, versus existence with a purpose

And it too should be 'banned'
in favor of teaching how to learn, not what has been learned so far.

Utterly and completely wrong

Athiesm is not a belief, as they do not have a belief based around athiesm itself they simple do not believe in deities.
As such things have no evidnce that they exist

So you view point has no bases or reason.

So tell me what is the belief system of athiesm made up of?

Errrr no beliefits i not a belif in existance either, with or without religion, that is complete gibberish, yet again.
Show me the set of belief systems, athiests adhere to that is universal with them all?

One thing is blatantly clear you clearly fear reason just like most religious people do.

Doh

Nobody stated that religion should be banned as a lesson, only that schools should not be run by organisations that are political, religiously motivated etc. It taks 2 seconds to teach about athiesm in school as well and in one sentence.

lol but we can easily expand on where your beliefs originate from

If you want to worship the Sun as a God for exampl like the Aten as the ancient Eygptians, who's symbol was the sun and the forerunner of Judaism, then be my guest lol
"Goodness gracious great balls of fire"


Please stop infesting the site with gibberish and nonsnse

that the universe operates on a compleletey random basis and has no predetermination.

Fuck me you don't even know what Athiesm.
i know you don't becauae you keep refering to religons and gods as indivual entities like you can prove athiesm right by proving them wrong.
THAT NOT THE WAY SCIENCE WORKS!
Athiesm is also a physics concept. that of lack of predetermintaion, for predermination implies a the existaence of a greater force than the universe.

AND You prove Why Athiesm needs to be banned like all the other religions.

[Eilzel]

You can't ban an idea that there isn't a god, veya; same as you can't really ban beliefs in a god. Its a non starter.

IF you wanted to, you could ban religious buildings, but atheism doesn't have such things. So how?

[veya_victaous]

You can't ban an idea that there isn't a god, veya; same as you can't really ban beliefs in a god. Its a non starter.

IF you wanted to, you could ban religious buildings, but atheism doesn't have such things. So how?

ban in schools.
it has all the same issues as Abrahamism.

The real issue, which is why it is pointless, is people like didge are fundamentalist to the core
whatever they latch only they will take too far with out even really understanding what they latched onto in the first place.
proceed to spout crap that if straight up contradiction in terms,
like 'Athiesm isn't a beleif system' when it is the beleif that there is no gods/divine
literally its only defintion is about it being a beleif fucking system!!!!!
as fucking dumb as saying "religion of peace lets set off bombs"


Science DOES NOT Equal athiesm. If we more people understood Science then there would be far less issues.
Schools should be for teaching knowledge and how to anaylise information.
Atheism is a religion just like all the others it is determental education as it treats our knowledge as fixed.

[Eilzel]

How is atheism 'taught' in schools, it isn't is it?

And atheism is limited to being a belief that a particular hypothesis (god) is wrong. It may be a belief but there is no system, so it us not a belief system.

[Guest]

Utterly and completely wrong

Athiesm is not a belief, as they do not have a belief based around athiesm itself they simple do not believe in deities.
As such things have no evidnce that they exist

So you view point has no bases or reason.

So tell me what is the belief system of athiesm made up of?

Errrr no beliefits i not a belif in existance either, with or without religion, that is complete gibberish, yet again.
Show me the set of belief systems, athiests adhere to that is universal with them all?

One thing is blatantly clear you clearly fear reason just like most religious people do.

Doh

Nobody stated that religion should be banned as a lesson, only that schools should not be run by organisations that are political, religiously motivated etc. It taks 2 seconds to teach about athiesm in school as well and in one sentence.

lol but we can easily expand on where your beliefs originate from

If you want to worship the Sun as a God for exampl like the Aten as the ancient Eygptians, who's symbol was the sun and the forerunner of Judaism, then be my guest lol
"Goodness gracious great balls of fire"


Please stop infesting the site with gibberish and nonsnse

that the universe operates on a compleletey random basis and has no predetermination.

Fuck me you don't even know what Athiesm.  
i know you don't becauae you keep refering to religons and gods as indivual entities like you can prove athiesm right by proving them wrong.
THAT NOT THE WAY SCIENCE WORKS!
Athiesm is also a physics concept. that of lack of predetermintaion, for predermination implies a the existaence of a greater force than the universe.

AND You prove Why Athiesm needs to be banned like all the other religions.

And now can we have you come back to reality on planet earth please?

Well its no wonder you are so confused if you think that is what athiesm is.

Again where is this athiest doctrine and book I follow specifically only for athiests?

[veya_victaous]

How is atheism 'taught' in schools, it isn't is it?

And atheism is limited to being a belief that a particular hypothesis (god) is wrong. It may be a belief but there is no system, so it us not a belief system.

With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts, such as those of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and Taoism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

So Umm NO! it is not just rejecting god unless you view the world in purely Abrahamistic terms like Didge does
and He is suggested to teach it as he falsely belives it is not a beleif system

it is a system
it is the proposal that a ZERO should go into a variable of what defines our universe.
ZERO is a very specific number and this is indeed a beleif system.

https://theidolbabbler.com/2016/01/01/the-mutual-exclusivity-of-atheism-and-math/

[veya_victaous]

Utterly and completely wrong

Athiesm is not a belief, as they do not have a belief based around athiesm itself they simple do not believe in deities.
As such things have no evidnce that they exist

So you view point has no bases or reason.

So tell me what is the belief system of athiesm made up of?

Errrr no beliefits i not a belif in existance either, with or without religion, that is complete gibberish, yet again.
Show me the set of belief systems, athiests adhere to that is universal with them all?

One thing is blatantly clear you clearly fear reason just like most religious people do.

Doh

Nobody stated that religion should be banned as a lesson, only that schools should not be run by organisations that are political, religiously motivated etc. It taks 2 seconds to teach about athiesm in school as well and in one sentence.

lol but we can easily expand on where your beliefs originate from

If you want to worship the Sun as a God for exampl like the Aten as the ancient Eygptians, who's symbol was the sun and the forerunner of Judaism, then be my guest lol
"Goodness gracious great balls of fire"


Please stop infesting the site with gibberish and nonsnse

that the universe operates on a compleletey random basis and has no predetermination.

Fuck me you don't even know what Athiesm.  
i know you don't becauae you keep refering to religons and gods as indivual entities like you can prove athiesm right by proving them wrong.
THAT NOT THE WAY SCIENCE WORKS!
Athiesm is also a physics concept. that of lack of predetermintaion, for predermination implies a the existaence of a greater force than the universe.

AND You prove Why Athiesm needs to be banned like all the other religions.

And now can we have you come back to reality on planet earth please?

Well its no wonder you are so confused if you think that is what athiesm is.

Again where is this athiest doctrine and book I follow specifically only for athiests?

where did i say it was organised?
you see you really cannot follow as you are just so far behind.
this has NOTHING TO DO WITH FUCKING FAIRYTALES you brain dead fuckign hick.
I do not give a fuck about the morals of any of that crap!! (if you are looking to the universe for that you are STUPID!)

I am talking About PHYSICS you knob!!!!
You as bad a fucking Priest, NUMBERS or your have NOTHING!!!!
words, feeling opinions MEAN NOTHING!!!
I want to KNOW what ACTUALLY EXISTS in the universe and not willing to go this fairytale was wrong so there is nothing
AND i follow Science enough to know WE DO NOT KNOW!!

You are Asserting that Zero is Deities, spirits/souls, supernatural, or transcendental concepts that are true.
HOW? what evidence do you have?
Again you keep missing you have to prove what you say !!! you want the Other religions to!

As I repeatable Say I Am of the positon of making suggestions, but not knowing, so I give an Undefined answer Like Agnosticism.
You have a VERY DEFINED Beleif in Athiesm.


YOU ARE WHY ATHIEST SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE CHRISTIANS!!
banned from trying to teach at all!!!
since you dont know JACK SHIT even about what you are fucking Preaching

[Guest]

Oh dear someone is emotive again and just making things up

When you stop acting like a child and being abusive and apologise the debate will continue

Your understanding of athiesm is at best born from ignorance and a lack of education

You fail again to show me the doctrine and book that athiests follows that is specific to athiesm that they all adhere to

As to physics that is even more comical as that has again zero to do with what athiesm is.

Now sort your potty mouth out and apologise or you are back on ignore in debates

Again I do not have to disprove something that has not ben proven to exist

The onus is on those who believe something exists to prove it does

Doh

That is why your argument is daft

[Guest]

Also Hick is a derogative racist word which further shows your ignorance and hate, being as I am irish/maltese/sicillian ethnicity and Athiest. I do not reside in the US as well. Best that admin have a word with this kind of hateful language as its against the rules


hick
A derogatory slang term for lower class whites raised in rural areas, usually within trailer parks or hog farms. Generally used more for Midwesterners than Southerners (see: redneck)
General defining characteristics of a hick: Protestant upbringing, usually Baptist; racist and sexist opinions; does not attend collage ; dumber than a post.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hick

[veya_victaous]

Physics is everything.
Physics Plays as massive party in any theory that is not fairytale make beleive bullshit there is literay no other way fo it to be real as defined by science.

SO yes you are fucking Hick get an education, You are not debating it is like talking to tommy abotu homosexual you just have so dumb ideas not back in Science.

SO Pleased STFU as you cannot follow.
to suggest there is Anything that is not Physics is just STUPID. there is no Debate as you do not have the MINIMUM required knowledge to follow the conversation.

And you Still demonstrate WHY Religon is NOT the problem IGNORANCE is.

[Guest]

Its best that we have no further communication Veya until the complaint I have made against you is resolved by forumotion

Thanks

[nicko]

You cannot communicate with Veya unless you are prepared to go into the gutter and compete with his hateful bigotry.

[Eilzel]

Veya, can you explain how my atheism affects my decisions and choices in life the way systems like Christianity, Hinduism and Islam do.

[Raggamuffin]

And now can we have you come back to reality on planet earth please?

Well its no wonder you are so confused if you think that is what athiesm is.

Again where is this athiest doctrine and book I follow specifically only for athiests?

where did i say it was organised?
you see you really cannot follow as you are just so far behind.
this has NOTHING TO DO WITH FUCKING FAIRYTALES you brain dead fuckign hick.
I do not give a fuck about the morals of any of that crap!! (if you are looking to the universe for that you are STUPID!)

I am talking About PHYSICS you knob!!!!
You as bad a fucking Priest, NUMBERS or your have NOTHING!!!!  
words, feeling opinions MEAN NOTHING!!!
I want to KNOW what ACTUALLY EXISTS in the universe and not willing to go this fairytale was wrong so there is nothing
AND i follow Science enough to know WE DO NOT KNOW!!  

You are Asserting that Zero is Deities, spirits/souls, supernatural, or transcendental concepts that are true.
HOW? what evidence do you have?
Again you keep missing you have to prove what you say !!! you want the Other religions to!

As I repeatable Say I Am of the positon of making suggestions, but not knowing, so I give an Undefined answer Like Agnosticism.
You have a VERY DEFINED Beleif in Athiesm.


YOU ARE WHY ATHIEST SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE CHRISTIANS!!
banned from trying to teach at all!!!
since you dont know JACK SHIT even about what you are fucking Preaching

We don't discriminate against Christians in this country and prevent them from becoming teachers. Perhaps you do in Australia - it must be a very backward country.

[veya_victaous]

Veya, can you explain how my atheism affects my decisions and choices in life the way systems like Christianity, Hinduism and Islam do.

you personally maybe little,
but if you start teaching Children there is nothing, there is no need to question it, there is nothing just accept what you are told
THEN YES THERE IS.

and there is 2 parts to this there is morality which is always debateable

and then there is the hows and whys of the universe and at this point we are in no position to say there is nothing, to try and define the universe by our current knowledge is making the exact mistake Christians and the majority of the other religions did.

and yes it still does, but not to that extent, as currently Atheism is still a disorganised religion but there are demagogues like sam harris about that are trying to ferment it into a organised religion with the political capacity to match the church thus literally setting itself up to become as useless an institution as the church.

[Eilzel]

If there are teachers trying to force children to accept there is nothing, that is wrong. But I've never heard of that happening tbh.

Your view on Sam Harris is pure opinion, selling books and debating does not make atheism a religion.

[veya_victaous]

atheism is a theology, has been since it was first proposed some 500 years before the Abrahamic cults.
it is a religion, there is no 2 ways about it.
it is denial on the part of it's zealots to suggest otherwise.

Simple test does it reference gods in any way? YES it does to State their nonexistence. Clearly the definition of theology, it has adherent so it is a religion open and shut case.

when a religious demagogue starts making literature it becomes and organised religion (or the attempt to organise)
Sam Harris Literally proposes the uniting of atheists for political movement, that is as textbook definition of attempting to organise Religion as possible


SO NO it is not just opinon.
what the words mean and what he is doing are the same thing.
it is JUST bullshit by fundmentalist hicks to pretend it is something other than what it is.
No different than Claiming there is magic fucking sky giant. Sky giants and 'Athiesm not being a religion' are both make beleive nonsense, merely wishful thinking from braindead adherents

[Guest]

If there are teachers trying to force children to accept there is nothing, that is wrong. But I've never heard of that happening tbh.

Your view on Sam Harris is pure opinion, selling books and debating does not make atheism a religion.

Hi Eilzel,

Why not just back up your point with evidence as there are many various forms, but none are theological as that is just illogical.


As follows:

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists

Which means its the opposite of Theism

Theism, in the field of comparative religion, is the belief in the existence of deities. In popular parlance, the term theism often describes the classical conception of god(s) that is found in the monotheistic and polytheistic religions.

Its about as clear as day they are opposites

Also:

There are different types of athiesm and thus cannot be a theology.

Theoretical (or theoric) atheism explicitly posits arguments against the existence of gods, responding to common theistic arguments such as the argument from design or Pascal's Wager. Theoretical atheism is mainly an ontology; more precisely, a physical ontology.

There are others:

Practical atheism can take various forms:

   Absence of religious motivation—belief in gods does not motivate moral action, religious action, or any other form of action;
   Active exclusion of the problem of gods and religion from intellectual pursuit and practical action;
   Indifference—the absence of any interest in the problems of gods and religion; or
   Unawareness of the concept of a deity

[veya_victaous]

you didn't you just proved once again you lack the minimun knowledge to follow the conversation. And actually proved that Athiesm by defintion is theology as "atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

thiest is that their is god(s)
Athiest is that their is no god(s)
BOTH Are THEOLOGY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
Theology is the critical study of the nature of the divine. It is taught as an academic discipline, typically in universities, seminaries and schools of divinity

When you start believing a theological idea it becomes a religion
If you write a book and organsie meetings of the like minded it becomes and organised religion


Much like most adherants to religions it would be good it you learned something about what you claim to believe, when wishing to particpate in these theological discussions. And If you want to speak of Athiesm in a non-theological sense then PROVE IT use science and do what no one has ever done and prove it.

Protagoras, as early as the fifth century BC, who is reputed to have been exiled from Athens because of his agnosticism about the existence of the gods, said that "Concerning the gods I cannot know either that they exist or that they do not exist, or what form they might have, for there is much to prevent one's knowing: the obscurity of the subject and the shortness of man's life."

[Guest]

you didn't you just proved once again you lack the minimun knowledge to follow the conversation.  And actually proved that Athiesm by defintion is theology as "atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

thiest is that their is god(s)
Athiest is that their is no god(s)
BOTH Are THEOLOGY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
Theology is the critical study of the nature of the divine. It is taught as an academic discipline, typically in universities, seminaries and schools of divinity

When you start believing a theological idea it becomes a religion
If you write a book and organsie meetings of the like minded it becomes and organised religion


Much like most adherants to religions it would be good it you learned something about what you claim to believe, when wishing to particpate in these theological discussions. And If you want to speak of Athiesm in a non-theological sense then PROVE IT use science and do what no one has ever done and prove it.

Protagoras, as early as the fifth century BC, who is reputed to have been exiled from Athens because of his agnosticism about the existence of the gods, said that "Concerning the gods I cannot know either that they exist or that they do not exist, or what form they might have, for there is much to prevent one's knowing: the obscurity of the subject and the shortness of man's life."

1) You ceratainly do not understand the terminology of words or their meanings

2) Its impossible trying to educate someone as closeminded as you are on such an aspect of something you clearly cannot grasp

3) There is no Athiest doctrine and it is the opposite of theology as already explained, of which you can argue to cows come up but will not make your position right. Whether you want to believe in Sun gods, as ancient civilizations like the Egyptians did with the God Ra, is your buisness, but they have simply no evidence.

4) Because of your continue por behaviour and constant abuse I will never participate in any further debates with you period, until you learn to clean up your act. That is a fact. So please continue to post to me, if you want to, I find you quite ignorant in most aspects of things and you are certainly someone who is full of hate and unable to reason with on the most rudementry of things in life

5) You have caused this yourself and will no doubt cause others to do the same if you continue down the same wrong path you are taking on here. That is all your making. I hope you prove me wrong and turn to being a decent poster on here again and then I will reconsider, but until then, I am sending you to Coventry.

[Eilzel]

Atheism as movement exists because atheists can be and are discriminated against in the USA, veya.

Are all movements religions? Feminism? Communism? Civil Rights? Gay Rights? Of course not. All have books, followers and lobbyists though.

I think you are so aggressive because you let individuals affect you too much.

As to banning in schools, that would achieve absolutely nothing, since it isn't taught in schools to begin with.

['Wolfie]

DOWN HERE, the more rabid and dogmatic atheists do have their own virtual religion/pseudo church,  Eilzel...

IT'S called the 'Atheists Society'...

NOT ONLY do they run their own politicised campaigns, and have Richard Dawkins as their lead prophet/spiritual leader, but some of their more out-there members are pushing for recognition of Atheism in the national census.      

[Guest]

DOWN HERE, the more rabid and dogmatic atheists do have their own virtual religion/pseudo church,  Eilzel...

IT'S called the 'Atheists Society'...

NOT ONLY do they run their own politicised campaigns, and have Richard Dawkins as their lead prophet/spiritual leader, but some of their more out-there members are pushing for recognition of Atheism in the national census.      

Long before the birth of the WWEB /internet access to even more members and splinter groups ...there was the 'AA' >

About American Atheists
Since 1963, American Atheists has been the premier organization fighting for the civil liberties of atheists and the total, absolute separation of government and religion. American Atheists was born out of a court case begun in 1959 by the Murray family which challenged prayer recitation in the public schools.
That case, Murray v. Curlett, was a landmark in American jurisprudence on behalf of our First Amendment rights. It began:
"Your petitioners are atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."
Now in its 51st year, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism. Over the last fifty years, American Atheists has: 

• Fought fervently to defend the separation of religion from government
  
• Appeared in all forms of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
  
• Held atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" marches in state capitals
  
• Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of atheist rights and state/church separation
  
• Published hundreds of books about atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation
  
• Published newsletters, magazines, and member alerts 
  
• Built a robust and diverse community of local affiliates, partners, and activists
  
• Fostered a growing network of representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues and work on behalf of the organization in their areas
  
• Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the atheist perspective 
  
• Preserved atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of atheist thought. 
  
• Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs, and the news media
  
• Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists
  http://www.atheists.org/about-us  
  
  
  

And since the    foresight of our founding fathers ...we've strived very hard to keep the 'Right Leaning - Bible Thumpers' from gaining far too much control and setting aside our Constitution and pushing their own unique agenda upon the public.  Practice your own unique faith at home or in your unique groups but not upon the many cultures of all those children that HAVE TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL.  

But in the recent years there has been a shift in the membership from standardized religion: some think it's due to the constant barrage of vile/heinous rants on media sights like FB/Twitter/SnapChat/Myspace and radio talk shows like 700 Club/R.Limbaugh/G.Beck and the TV religious rants of Faux Media and then our government finally recognizing equality for GLBT community rights for simple things like = marriage/divorce/property rights/death benefits/health benefits etc., etc., etc.,  
The more equality minded America has become the less control and the drop in numbers the Hard-Wired-Bible-Thumpers have had for power ...that's gotta be a scary issue for those that hold that Bible as their soul salvation and promise of life ever after?

[Fuzzy Zack]

Zack I'm interested in the "being gay / doing gay" phrase you used. Im sure I know what you mean but can you clarify, as I don't want to assume.

My point is you may be born to be or even think a certain way but it does not give you the licence to "do" anything.

It is as ridiculous as saying I'm born black, so I do things black people do. It doesn't even make sense.

[Fuzzy Zack]

Being gay and doing gay are 2 different things.  

Being gay is not like being black or any other race.

You can be black but there's no such thing as "doing black".

Doing gay?   You mean the sex act?   Being gay is exactly like being black.   You're born that way.  You cannot choose.   Basically, what you're displaying here is your own fear and disgust of male homosexuality.   Do you find lesbians as abhorrent?   I bet you don't.

Is there any such thing as "doing black"? No. So it's not like being black.

Keep your lesbian fantasies to yourself.

[Eilzel]

We don't need a license. Are you saying a man shouldn't have sex with the man he loves and wants to spend his life with?

[HoratioTarr]

Doing gay?   You mean the sex act?   Being gay is exactly like being black.   You're born that way.  You cannot choose.   Basically, what you're displaying here is your own fear and disgust of male homosexuality.   Do you find lesbians as abhorrent?   I bet you don't.

Is there any such thing as "doing black"? No. So it's not like being black.

Keep your lesbian fantasies to yourself.

I never used the word 'fantasy' but it's telling that you have.

[HoratioTarr]

Zack I'm interested in the "being gay / doing gay" phrase you used. Im sure I know what you mean but can you clarify, as I don't want to assume.

My point is you may be born to be or even think a certain way but it does not give you the licence to "do" anything.

It is as ridiculous as saying I'm born black, so I do things black people do. It doesn't even make sense.

Why don't you just answer the question? Oh, wait... you can't.

[eddie]

We don't need a license. Are you saying a man shouldn't have sex with the man he loves and wants to spend his life with?

A man can have sex with any man he chooses, in love or not, as long as it's legal, consensual and safe.

[Guest]

Think Zack's views here kind of highlight the problem in some schools tbh. It is a very discrete, cleverly veiled intolerance. No problem with gay feelings in Islam guys, as long as you stay single and repress those feelings forever!

I am surprised at Zack's view on this thread Les.  No one has the right to deny people love, regardless of personal opinion and frankly unwarranted prejudice.  Love is love, precious and something to be cherished not hidden or something to be ashamed of.

Hope all is well with you and yours xxx

[Eilzel]

I'm not surprised at all FtL, his beliefs dictate his view on this issue.

We are both great, thanks, been a good year haha
Hope things are good with you too, don't see you round here as much x

^Eds, you needn't tell me lol, Zack is clear in his view though, gays should suppress their feelings. Glad I don't subscribe to such nonsensical dictats.

[eddie]

I'm glad that moat people don't subscribe to nonsensical dictats.

(Isn't is spelled "diktats"?)

[Eilzel]

I'm glad that moat people don't subscribe to nonsensical dictats.

(Isn't is spelled "diktats"?)

You are right, lol

So what do 'most people' subscribe to then

[eddie]

Hahahaha touché

I think most people, on the whole, don't have any silly notions about what constitutes "normal" relationships nowadays, people have realised thank God, that we are all different and unique and we will find our life partners (or our for-now partners) in any walk of life, or body, and it matters not a jot who, or what sex or colour they are.

You know, it's odd becasue not one person in my whole entire family has ever shown any homophobia - what I mean to say is, from my grandparents (both sides) all the way down to my four year old, I've never heard or known anyone express any angst against homosexuals.
We are all extremely accepting. I have a niece who's bi, but I think more so gay than anything and my cousins son who's not sure. We are all "ok whatever, not worried"

Even my grandparents - a different generation entirely - were so blasé as to not bat an eyelid about anything like that. You could walk in with pink hair and they'd say "oh, that's summery!"

Great people they were.

I'm lucky to come from a pretty chilled and accepting family which has passed down that acceptance all through the next generations. Makes me quite proud of them all tbh.

[Eilzel]

Glad to hear it. I've seen homophobic comments go from common among men in my family to dead. They had become far less common even before I came out too. It was one reason I was ever able to do so with many of them. No one in my family is homophobic, have always been supportive and love my BF as a member of the family. I am very happy with my situation.

I just wish others, especually gay people born into Muslim or deeply conservative Christian families could just as fortunate.

[eddie]

From what I've seen les, your family seem wonderful. We are both lucky we come from such a loving family X

[Ben Reilly]

Glad to hear it. I've seen homophobic comments go from common among men in my family to dead. They had become far less common even before I came out too. It was one reason I was ever able to do so with many of them. No one in my family is homophobic, have always been supportive and love my BF as a member of the family. I am very happy with my situation.

I just wish others, especually gay people born into Muslim or deeply conservative Christian families could just as fortunate.

Friends and I who are mid-30s to mid-40s often talk about how it feels like we grew up in a different era than the one we live now. When we were kids, it was completely normal to deride each another with gay slurs; we never really even thought about it. Now we look back at how we used to act and have a hard time even believing it.

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