The Dalai Lama on Praying After Terror Attacks: “It Is Illogical. God Would Say, Solve It Yourself”

First topic message reminder :

Kudos to the Dalai Lama for offering an honest, sensible response to all those calls for prayers following the terrorist attacks in Paris:

We cannot solve this problem only through prayers. I am a Buddhist and I believe in praying. But humans have created this problem, and now we are asking God to solve it. It is illogical. God would say, solve it yourself because you created it in the first place.
We need a systematic approach to foster humanistic values, of oneness and harmony. If we start doing it now, there is hope that this century will be different from the previous one. It is in everybody’s interest. So let us work for peace within our families and society, and not expect help from God, Buddha or the governments.

That… that sounds remarkably like Humanism.
Either that or I’ve been a Buddhist this whole time.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/17/the-dalai-lama-on-praying-after-terror-attacks-it-is-illogical-god-would-say-solve-it-yourself/

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Any comments about the Dalai Lama and the controversies surrounding him? It's really quite interesting if you could stop obsessing about your lack of faith for five seconds.

Lack of faith?
Do you think all faith is religious?
You can have faith in people that does not require anything religious.
At least people are real.
Anyway, I was interested in his view he stated here.
I am sure someone else maybe interested in a digression to views about the dala lama himself

So I was right - you're not interested in the DL, you just wanted to obsess about people with religious faith yet again.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Lack of faith?
Do you think all faith is religious?
You can have faith in people that does not require anything religious.
At least people are real.
Anyway, I was interested in his view he stated here.
I am sure someone else maybe interested in a digression to views about the dala lama himself

So I was right - you're not interested in the DL, you just wanted to obsess about people with religious faith yet again.

False accusation again

I am interested to debate his view here just as everyone else did, which was on prayers.

Who else has expressed an opinion on DL here, other than you?

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So I was right - you're not interested in the DL, you just wanted to obsess about people with religious faith yet again.

False accusation again

I am interested to debate his view here just as everyone else did, which was on prayers.

Who else has expressed an opinion on DL here, other than you?

Nobody, but as this thread is about what he said, I'm entitled to talk about him if I want to. There's a lot of talk about religion on here - you'd think people would be interested, but hey, he's not a Christian or a Muslim so they're probably not interested (although he has been accused of being a Muslim by some people apparently).

I thought you liked having your horizons broadened, but apparently not. You carry on bleating on about how nobody should believe in God like you always do.

You are entittled to your views rags, but if you make false accusations which are not debating and diverting the thread, then people are going to rightly challenge you when it is a complete fabrication on your part.
At then end of the day, it is you being over sensitive with religion again on a topic which interests many people. People were interested long before you cam along and debated religion Rags, i suggest you get used to that and allow others to debate.
Nobody is foring you to debate them, but this debate was on prayers, of which everyone debated on that point of view.

Right have a good evening

Didge wrote:You are entittled to your views rags, but if you make false accusations which are not debating and diverting the thread, then people are going to rightly challenge you when it is a complete fabrication on your part.
At then end of the day, it is you being over sensitive with religion again on a topic which interests many people. People were interested long before you cam along and debated religion Rags, i suggest you get used to that and allow others to debate.
Nobody is foring you to debate them, but this debate was on prayers, of which everyone debated on that point of view.

Right have a good evening

I haven't made any false accusations. You're just playing the victim again. Get used to the idea that not everyone will kowtow to you. You've seen several opinions in this thread, but you just won't accept them - you just keep on and on contracting people's opinions as if you know better than them what they believe.

I'm probably echoing some of the stuff Didge said, but studies have backed up the idea that people who pray have less stress -- however, it's logical. They're taking something they can't handle themselves (that nobody could handle) and putting it off themselves. In the case of prayer, they think they're putting it into the hands of God, but of course you could do this without religious belief -- just a bit of quiet time in which you remind yourself that you can't fix whatever problem you're grappling with on your own.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm probably echoing some of the stuff Didge said, but studies have backed up the idea that people who pray have less stress -- however, it's logical. They're taking something they can't handle themselves (that nobody could handle) and putting it off themselves. In the case of prayer, they think they're putting it into the hands of God, but of course you could do this without religious belief -- just a bit of quiet time in which you remind yourself that you can't fix whatever problem you're grappling with on your own.

Yes, you are echoing what Didge said.

Just let people have their religious faith. Nobody is forcing you to have faith yourself.

Anyway, I'd like to know how the Dalai Lama knows what God would say.

Pat Roach, wrestler, actor said this not long before he died,
"If I could have one wish it would be, only one religion in the world".

Stormee wrote:Pat Roach, wrestler, actor said this not long before he died,
"If I could have one wish it would be, only one religion in the world".

Must've copied me then. I've always said that.

Tbh though Storm, I think people would just find some other shit to fight over.

Stormee wrote:Pat Roach, wrestler, actor said this not long before he died,
"If I could have one wish it would be, only one religion in the world".

Can you imagine the carnage trying to decide which one.

Even if there was only one religion, someone would come along and say that some of the beliefs in that religion were wrong, and it would all carry on.

yeah,there are aerosols everywhere looking for trouble.
Spose, there may not be as much.

Raggamuffin wrote:Even if there was only one religion, someone would come along and say that some of the beliefs in that religion were wrong, and it would all carry on.

Which is pretty much how it all began in the first place lol

If people just prayed in their own homes only, did not bring it our of doors.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:You are entittled to your views rags, but if you make false accusations which are not debating and diverting the thread, then people are going to rightly challenge you when it is a complete fabrication on your part.
At then end of the day, it is you being over sensitive with religion again on a topic which interests many people. People were interested long before you cam along and debated religion Rags, i suggest you get used to that and allow others to debate.
Nobody is foring you to debate them, but this debate was on prayers, of which everyone debated on that point of view.

Right have a good evening

I haven't made any false accusations. You're just playing the victim again. Get used to the idea that not everyone will kowtow to you. You've seen several opinions in this thread, but you just won't accept them - you just keep on and on contracting people's opinions as if you know better than them what they believe.

Victim card?

No victim here just rightly exposing the false accusations you made Rags, and it shows your over sensitivity to religion. The reality is there is no evidence that praying is being listened to or being answered and being as there are many ways to help and support people and the fact it can be very soul destroying to believers when they lose someone who is ill, it has many bad consequences to believeing them.


As to the point on one religion, why even have one, without religious beliefs it is one less thing to fight over.
People are just people then and might start to look at people for being human and not special just because they think something imaginary makes them special above those who do not believe in something imaginary. You might find more equality is born from no religion

Stormee wrote:If people just prayed in their own homes only, did not bring it our of doors.

But why should they Stormee? an important part of religion for many is to share their beliefs with like minded people....the problems only arise when some try to force others to believe in what they believe.

I agree with what the Dalai Lama says anyway....how can any God, real or imagined sort out the bloody mess man has made for himself.

Syl wrote:

Stormee wrote:If people just prayed in their own homes only, did not bring it our of doors.

But why should they Stormee? an important part of religion for many is to share their beliefs with like minded people....the problems only arise when some try to force others to believe in what they believe.

I agree with what the Dalai Lama says anyway....how can any God, real or imagined sort out the bloody mess man has made for himself.

How about the 'unlike minded' people who do not wanna know, do not want it forced upon them.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm probably echoing some of the stuff Didge said, but studies have backed up the idea that people who pray have less stress -- however, it's logical. They're taking something they can't handle themselves (that nobody could handle) and putting it off themselves. In the case of prayer, they think they're putting it into the hands of God, but of course you could do this without religious belief -- just a bit of quiet time in which you remind yourself that you can't fix whatever problem you're grappling with on your own.

Yes, you are echoing what Didge said.

Just let people have their religious faith. Nobody is forcing you to have faith yourself.

So why do religious people preach and try to convert others to their faith?
Is that not then trying to force their faith onto those who do not share that faith?
I mean if people had not preached, would you have found that faith and that you are basically saying they were wrong to do so?
Again you do not have to be religious to have faith.

Stormee wrote:

Syl wrote:

But why should they Stormee? an important part of religion for many is to share their beliefs with like minded people....the problems only arise when some try to force others to believe in what they believe.

I agree with what the Dalai Lama says anyway....how can any God, real or imagined sort out the bloody mess man has made for himself.

How about the 'unlike minded' people who do not wanna know, do not want it forced upon them.

That's what I said Stormee....that's when the problems arise.

Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, I'd like to know how the Dalai Lama knows what God would say.

His view or perception of 'God' will be different from other religions probably. In fact, I'm not sure Buddhism is a religion as such, but rather a way of life that focused more on the spiritual. People are indoctrinated into believing that God is this all seeing, beneficent, miracle working overseer who will perform miracles if we pray hard enough. Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps we're put down here to just get on with it, to sort out our own problems, and deal with our own shit?

Perhaps 'God' says...right, here's your life, you start out naked with fuck all but your own body and brains, the rest is up to you. If someone shits on you, deal with it, but be sure to remember that two wrongs don't make a right, and all men are not created equal when it comes to money, and don't come crying to me if it all goes tits up.'

The DL has, I believe, a much clearer channel to the true nature of God.

Syl wrote:

Stormee wrote:If people just prayed in their own homes only, did not bring it our of doors.

But why should they Stormee? an important part of religion for many is to share their beliefs with like minded people....the problems only arise when some try to force others to believe in what they believe.

I agree with what the Dalai Lama says anyway....how can any God, real or imagined sort out the bloody mess man has made for himself.

I don't think this world will ever be a good place to be until we sort out our own shit. God's got nothing to do with it. It's all us.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I haven't made any false accusations. You're just playing the victim again. Get used to the idea that not everyone will kowtow to you. You've seen several opinions in this thread, but you just won't accept them - you just keep on and on contracting people's opinions as if you know better than them what they believe.

Victim card?

No victim here just rightly exposing the false accusations you made Rags, and it shows your over sensitivity to religion. The reality is there is no evidence that praying is being listened to or being answered and being as there are many ways to help and support people and the fact it can be very soul destroying to believers when they lose someone who is ill, it has many bad consequences to believeing them.


As to the point on one religion, why even have one, without religious beliefs it is one less thing to fight over.
People are just people then and might start to look at people for being human and not special just because they think something imaginary makes them special above those who do not believe in something imaginary. You might find more equality is born from no religion

What are prayers but positive affirmations? There are plenty of examples of prayers being answered, but that could be argued as a happy coincidence. But if it makes the praying one feel better, no harm done. I do agree that people's expectations of God get sorely tested, and there's too much ranting about 'Where are the angels and where is God' when some kid gets squashed or a volcano wipes out a village. I also agree that religion should be abolished. But even if we had none, would we stop fighting each other, or just find something else to kill each other over?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

But why should they Stormee? an important part of religion for many is to share their beliefs with like minded people....the problems only arise when some try to force others to believe in what they believe.

I agree with what the Dalai Lama says anyway....how can any God, real or imagined sort out the bloody mess man has made for himself.

I don't think this world will ever be a good place to be until we sort out our own shit.  God's got nothing to do with it.  It's all us.

Yes I agree. Expecting a mythical being to clear up the mess we have made is asking the impossible.

has Didge just realized that Humanism is in large part based on Buddhist Philosophy?

If there was one religion that may work it would be Buddhism but there is still institutionalization in most modern Buddhist sects.
The fault lies with humans as regardless of the quality of the philosophy they always fail once humans build institution around them. What Buddhism has going for it is it isn't just some war mongering tribe-mind texts like Abrahamism ultimately is.
it focuses much more on personal development and doesn't have versus after versus of hate for those that reject or ignore it's teachings...

Have not just realised anything Veya
Just like many religions Bhuddism is also easily corrupted with extremism as seen today of which Muslims suffer from and in the past with the Japanese in WW2.
Like all religions it is a load of gobbldygook

veya_victaous wrote:has Didge just realized that Humanism is in large part based on Buddhist Philosophy?

If there was one religion that may work it would be Buddhism but there is still institutionalization in most modern Buddhist sects.
The fault lies with humans as regardless of the quality of the philosophy they always fail once humans build institution around them. What Buddhism has going for it is it isn't just some war mongering tribe-mind texts like Abrahamism ultimately is.
it focuses much more on personal development and doesn't have versus after versus of hate for those that reject or ignore it's teachings...

The problem lies with the human inherent need to control. I guess that goes back to our baser instincts of survival of the fittest. Some people are just more controlling and stronger willed than others, and there will always be those who follow, and if you combine that with psychological short comings, you've got a recipe for savagery of the worst kind.

When society breaks down, and with it law and order, there's only one recourse for survival, banding together. Whether defined by religion, racial, political or the tribal mindset, survival depends on the mutual security offered by the group. It's a strong high that most of us would succumb to, to a greater or lesser degree.

Most Buddhists are peaceful very spiritual people who believe in karma. But that's not to say some won't succumb to the ego.

Japanese Buddhism is combined with Shinto-ism and is very nationalistic.

Buddhism is not gobbly gook any more than Psychology is
You cant tar all religions with the same brush, that make 'whatever you are calling your beliefs' worse than Buddhism and exactly the same as Abrahamism.. 

The Problem is is so strongly believing you have all the answer that you don't read/listen to the alternatives.. the fault of Abrahamism, MANY religions and 'new atheism' but not all religions or atheists

HoratioTarr wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:has Didge just realized that Humanism is in large part based on Buddhist Philosophy?

If there was one religion that may work it would be Buddhism but there is still institutionalization in most modern Buddhist sects.
The fault lies with humans as regardless of the quality of the philosophy they always fail once humans build institution around them. What Buddhism has going for it is it isn't just some war mongering tribe-mind texts like Abrahamism ultimately is.
it focuses much more on personal development and doesn't have versus after versus of hate for those that reject or ignore it's teachings...

The problem lies with the human inherent need to control.    I guess that goes back to our baser instincts of survival of the fittest.   Some people are just more controlling and stronger willed than others, and there will always be those who follow, and if you combine that with psychological short comings, you've got a recipe for savagery of the worst kind.

When society breaks down, and with it law and order, there's only one recourse for survival, banding together.  Whether defined by religion, racial, political or the tribal mindset,  survival depends on the mutual security offered by the group.  It's a strong high that most of us would succumb to, to a greater or lesser degree.

Most Buddhists are peaceful very spiritual people who believe in karma.  But that's not to say some won't succumb to the ego.

Agree
the fault is the humans

but is the fault really expecting us to be more than the animals we are

veya_victaous wrote:Japanese Buddhism is combined with Shinto-ism and is very nationalistic.

Buddhism is not gobbly gook any more than Psychology is
You cant tar all religions with the same brush, that make 'whatever you are calling your beliefs' worse than Buddhism and exactly the same as Abrahamism.. 

The Problem is is so strongly believing you have all the answer that you don't read/listen to the alternatives.. the fault of Abrahamism, MANY religions and 'new atheism' but not all religions or atheists

It is to me gobbledygook as at the end of the day its very beliefs are without foundation and like any religion it has both good and bad within the belief systems.
Psychology it least tries to understand how people are and bases at least a decent understanding.
The fact is you seem to fail to understand I have been researching theology for years and it is knowledge that furthers understanding
For years my eldest brother was a Bhuddist which was very much disruptive because he gave up his wife and family to be a part of a community, which I found to be honest nothing more than a destroyer of a family home, as his sons suffered because of his selfish needs. They lost many years and now since he has sadly departed a couple of years ago even though in the end he was an athiest, that time will never be recovered. So please spare me on what I know.

Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

It's been later generations of religious believers who screwed over every once-promising spiritual movement If Christians lived like the first followers of Jesus did, they'd be communists!

I love the joke:

"I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that's not how it works. So I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness."

Its pretty real though. God provides invisible, psychological help. Anything concrete is impossible. God (if we humour his existence lol) made a world with many natural problems and diseases- erratic weather, dangerous landscapes, poisionous food, and a weak, vulnerable people to inhabit it. Then he decided to give them prayer to ask for help. Real help? No. Moral support is the best this all powerful, some say 'loving' god can provide

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

It's been later generations of religious believers who screwed over every once-promising spiritual movement If Christians lived like the first followers of Jesus did, they'd be communists!

I always thought that was a great irony of the USA. To hate communists but love the Jesus who was the super commie of his day.

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

Man alive you really know very little as it is still a belief system and religion so yes you can very much go from bhuddism to athiesm and thank crunchy when people do as its even more daft.
It was the religion that made he abandom his family and yes it was his decision where he even changed his name because he wanted to become a monk, and lived within a commune so spare me what you know because as seen you know zero Veya. At the end of the day where it places a person to think to abandomn his family is why religion is is so derivesive and why I have come to see you as no more than someone who spends his time learning off the internent and not the real world. He came to eventully see that all religion was bullshit. In the last 10 years of hisw life he was living in Finland. So what you think people can do is so removed from reality is shows you do not actually know much or how such things effect peoples lives.
Relgiion allows for people as it does in all religions to place what is essetntially goobldegook over theur own families and is done so in many, where again the likes of people like the Japanese would willing give their lives. So yes even Bhuddism is derisve and like all religions is a stain on the world, because it plays on the weak and susceptible.
Now I suggest you get out in the real world because what you perceive is far removed from what people actually live their lives.

HoratioTarr wrote:

One of the greatest thinking minds.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

It's been later generations of religious believers who screwed over every once-promising spiritual movement If Christians lived like the first followers of Jesus did, they'd be communists!

That is the problem, the first real christians were all wiped out in Jerusalem by the Romans Ben
Which left Pauline Christianity to then floruish and dominate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

Didge wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah so I actually spent time in Monastery And I can tell you Do not know Much about Buddhism because you Constantly act like the rules of Abrahamism exist in it.


And no WAY DID Buddhism get him to give up his family
He did that because HE WANTED TO.
Your brothers issues Obviously do not come from Religion if half the stuff you say about him is true. they would have been present regardless.


You cant really go from Buddhist to Atheist because Buddhist are already Non-theists. Buddhism is almost entirely the analysis of the human mind and behaviors. This is why it is combined with other religions in almost every existing institution. (India with Hindu, China with Taoism/zen, Japan with Shinto, south east Asia with Animism.) it is lacking in creation/explanation myths

Man alive you really know very little as it is still a belief system and religion so yes you can very much go from bhuddism to athiesm and thank crunchy when people do as its even more daft.
It was the religion that made he abandom his family and yes it was his decision where he even changed his name because he wanted to become a monk, and lived within a commune so spare me what you know because as seen you know zero Veya. At the end of the day where it places a person to think to abandomn his family is why religion is is so derivesive and why I have come to see you as no more than someone who spends his time learning off the internent and not the real world. He came to eventully see that all religion was bullshit. In the last 10 years of hisw life he was living in Finland. So what you think people can do is so removed from reality is shows you do not actually know much or how such things effect peoples lives.
Relgiion allows for people as it does in all religions to place what is essetntially goobldegook over theur own families and is done so in many, where again the likes of people like the Japanese would willing give their lives. So yes even Bhuddism is derisve and like all religions is a stain on the world, because it plays on the weak and susceptible.
Now I suggest you get out in the real world because what you perceive is far removed from what people actually live their lives.

Was your brother happy, calm and serene as a monk?

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:

Man alive you really know very little as it is still a belief system and religion so yes you can very much go from bhuddism to athiesm and thank crunchy when people do as its even more daft.
It was the religion that made he abandom his family and yes it was his decision where he even changed his name because he wanted to become a monk, and lived within a commune so spare me what you know because as seen you know zero Veya. At the end of the day where it places a person to think to abandomn his family is why religion is is so derivesive and why I have come to see you as no more than someone who spends his time learning off the internent and not the real world. He came to eventully see that all religion was bullshit. In the last 10 years of hisw life he was living in Finland. So what you think people can do is so removed from reality is shows you do not actually know much or how such things effect peoples lives.
Relgiion allows for people as it does in all religions to place what is essetntially goobldegook over theur own families and is done so in many, where again the likes of people like the Japanese would willing give their lives. So yes even Bhuddism is derisve and like all religions is a stain on the world, because it plays on the weak and susceptible.
Now I suggest you get out in the real world because what you perceive is far removed from what people actually live their lives.

Was your brother happy, calm and serene as a monk?

Very distant as only saw him over a 10 year period once when he was a Bhuddist.
All I know is he left his young children and wife for a different path, which achieved him nothing.
In the end he came to see that religions were just the views and beliefs of people over time.
He only had peace of mind as an athiest .
His sons forgave him though for what he did, as we all did, but it was very selfish, you do not start a family to only seek then religious answers, that is irresponsible.

Anyway its home time so catch you later Eddie

Nobody forced him to be a Buddhist monk though. I think they're generally single as they have to devote themselves to Buddhism. I know a few Buddhist monks - one of them got disrobed in the end.

Didge wrote:Anyway its home time so catch you later Eddie

Thanks for answering such a personal question. Glad it all worked out for him in the end.

Interestingly enough, the Buddha himself left his wife and child.