Nelson Mandela dies

South Africa's first black president and anti-apartheid icon Nelson Mandela has died, South Africa's president says.
Mr Mandela, 95, led South Africa's transition from white-minority rule in the 1990s, after 27 years in prison.
He had been receiving intense home-based medical care for a lung infection after three months in hospital.
In a statement on South African national TV, Mr Zuma said Mr Mandela had "departed" and was at peace.
Continue reading the main story

1918 Born in the Eastern Cape
1943 Joined African National Congress
1956 Charged with high treason, but charges dropped after a four-year trial
1962 Arrested, convicted of incitement and leaving country without a passport, sentenced to five years in prison
1964 Charged with sabotage, sentenced to life
1990 Freed from prison
1993 Wins Nobel Peace Prize
1994 Elected first black president
1999 Steps down as leader
2001 Diagnosed with prostate cancer
2004 Retires from public life
2005 Announces his son has died of an HIV/Aids-related illness
"Our nation has lost its greatest son," Mr Zuma said.
The Nobel Peace Prize laureate was one of the world's most revered statesmen after preaching reconciliation despite being imprisoned for 27 years.
He had rarely been seen in public since officially retiring in 2004.
"What made Nelson Mandela great was precisely what made him human. We saw in him what we seek in ourselves," Mr Zuma said.
"Fellow South Africans, Nelson Mandela brought us together and it is together that we will bid him farewell."
Earlier, the BBC's Mike Wooldridge, outside Mr Mandela's home in the Johannesburg suburb of Houghton, said there appeared to have been an unusually large family gathering.
Among those attending was family elder Bantu Holomisa,
A number of government vehicles were there during the evening as well, our correspondent says.
Since he was released from hospital, the South African presidency repeatedly described Mr Mandela's condition as critical but stable.
He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 and was elected South Africa's first black president in 1994. He stepped down after five years in office.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520

A truly great man! RIP

I can still remember hearing that song as a young teen. RIP

Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

I agree, one of the human races greats, just wish that Zuma could be more like him....

......Nelson Mandela concert.

Very, very sad.   South Africa now at a crossroads, I hope they find the right way forward.

Sassy wrote:Very, very sad.   South Africa now at a crossroads, I hope they find the right way forward.

Me too! 

Thursday night TV in this country on the BBC is always British politics night, this has all been cancelled! 

 ......Very big as well in the gay community in the day!

Listening to the Obama speech about Mandela....It's very true to say that the gay youth political movement, of the time, was moved and that that paved the ways to our freedoms, we took courage from that fight....It moved the gay youth movement of the time in the UK forward 

Here's an interesting timeline on how the U.S. right-wingers set themselves against Mandela and what he stood for beginning in the 1960s:

http://thinkprogress.org/home/2013/12/06/3029871/wing-timeline-mandela/

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2013/12/rick_santorum_compares_himself_to_nelson_mandela.html

Ben_Reilly wrote:Here's an interesting timeline on how the U.S. right-wingers set themselves against Mandela and what he stood for beginning in the 1960s:

http://thinkprogress.org/home/2013/12/06/3029871/wing-timeline-mandela/

Our very own Margaret Thatcher supported the apartheid regime, same as our Barclays bank in this country 

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Only a hero to some Ben, not everybody.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Only a hero to some Ben, not everybody.

He'll soon find out what you're all about...

Catman wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Only a hero to some Ben, not everybody.

He'll soon find out what you're all about...

Hi Catman, I guess so because I will be posting my viewpoint on the events which are being discussed.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Catman wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Only a hero to some Ben, not everybody.

He'll soon find out what you're all about...

Hi Catman, I guess so because I will be posting my viewpoint on the events which are being discussed.

Will you be trawling through court news looking for very obscure cases involving just black and Asian people, we know that you like to paint the picture that only black and Asian people commit crimes 

 


Tory politicians heaping praise on Nelson Mandela were yesterday accused of rank hypocrisy - after supporting a party that spent decades dismissing him as a “terrorist”.
David Cameron, George Osborne and Commons Speaker John Bercow hailed the anti-apartheid leader as an inspiration.
But throughout the 1980s, when they were young Tory activists, Margaret Thatcher was refusing to lift sanctions on South Africa’s racist government.
And as late as October 1987 she was dismissing Mr Mandela’s African National Congress party as “a typical terrorist organisation”.
Even yesterday former Tory Chairman Lord Tebbit was refusing to back down.
He said: “He was the leader of a political movement which had begun to resort to terrorism.”
Former Tory MP and serving councillor Terry Dicks went even further and compared Mr Mandela to an Al-Qaeda terrorist.
He said: “They were just terrorists. No different from the Irish terrorists. Perhaps no different to those we’re fighting now.
"Just a different background, maybe a different religion, but that’s all.
“And a terrorist is a terrorist. I don’t accept this view of freedom fighters one day - terrorists one day, freedom fighters the next. No. No.
“And if they had wanted to they could have executed him. Seriously. And then you wouldn’t have had all this fuss of ‘I can live 27 years in prison’.
He was asked by Channel 4 News if it might have been better if they had executed him. He replied: “Well he was a terrorist.”
The remarks will infuriate David Cameron, who hoped to bury the Tories’ anti-Mandela past.
In 2006, Mr Cameron apologised and denounced the Thatcher record on South Africa.
He said she was wrong to have branded Mandela’s African National Congress “terrorists” and to have opposed sanctions against the apartheid South Africa.
Yesterday Mr Cameron led tributes to Mr Mandela a “hero of our time”. The PM added: “Meeting him was one of the great honours of my life.”
But he did not mention how he had gone to South Africa as a 23-year-old in 1989 on a jolly while Mr Mandela was locked in jail fighting the country’s apartheid shame.
Peter Hain, the South African-born Labour MP, said at the time Mr Cameron’s trip emerged: “This just exposes his hypocrisy because he has tried to present himself as a progressive Conservative.”


Mr Cameron is not the only leading Tory with a shameful record fighting apartheid.
Commons Speaker John Bercow was the last ever chairman of a Tory youth wing which produced “Hang Nelson Mandela” badges.
Yesterday Mr Bercow, showered praise on Mr Mandela.
He said: “He was Tata, father, to us all. His extraordinary commitment to democracy, peace and the fight against injustice has motivated generations to stand up for freedom.”
But in the 80s he was the chair of the Federation of Conservative Students, whose conferences were littered with anti-Mandela attacks.
Labour frontbencher Brian Wilson yesterday called on Mr Bercow to “make it clear that he deeply regrets the behaviour” of those young Tories.
He said: “Mr Bercow must now make it clear that he deeply regrets the behaviour of FCS members.
“Silence would only show that we’ve still got the same old Tories with the same old story of intolerance and bigotry.”
North West Durham MP Pat Glass added on Twitter: “Makes me mad 2 hear tributes from Tories now who called him a traitor when in prison.”
The ugly side of other right wing parties was also exposed yesterday.
UKIP poster girl Alexandra Swann retweeted messages calling Mr Mandela a “terrorist”.
Ms Swann, whose speech to their 2012 Spring conference was introduced by leader Nigel Farage, said: “Mandela is dead. Sympathy for his family but let’s not deify one who condoned terrorism.”
She added: “Imagine if we sang ding dong the terrorist’s dead. Death of Mandela is sad but he did condone violent, terrorist attacks. #Hypocrisy.”
Ms Swann then retweeted a message to her followers saying: “#Mandela The dead terrorist.”



The messages relate to Mandela’s arrest in 1962 for leading a sabotage campaign against South Africa’s racist government.
And despite winning a Nobel peace prize Mandela remained on the US terror list until 2008 - a fact that the Bush administration described as “embarrassing”.
The Tory party’s bible, the Spectator magazine, also sparked fury with a blog claiming his death had been given too much TV coverage - less than an hour after it was announced.
At 10.32pm Rod Liddle wrote: “But for Christ’s sake BBC, give it a bloody break for five minutes, will you?
"It’s as if the poor bugger now has to bear your entire self-flagellating white post-colonial bien pensant guilt; look! Famous nice black man dies!
“Let’s re-run the entire history of South Africa. That’s better than watching the country we’re in being flattened by a storm.”
The British National Party leader Nick Griffin managed to plunge even lower saying: “Ding dong, the beatified Communist terrorist is dead.”
His remarks came after he sparked outrage earlier this year, as Mandela’s health worsened, when he called him a “murderous old terrorist”.


Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nelson-mandela-dead-conservative-hypocrites-2899975#ixzz2mp6nRBLd 
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

Why should anyone be surprised at the hypocrisy of the RW! It's pretty clear what they are all about now, they don't really care a stuff about what they say or do, and even when they are caught out lying and twisting things they just brush it off because they know that they won't be held to account over their actions!  

......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Wonder what happened to him!  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Terre'Blanche

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

.....A similar struggle, not as brutal as what the people of SA had to go through IMO....I think because some gay people could be less identified as being gay, it was much easier to hide.....If you were black or Jewish you couldn't really hide that as much, like WW2 holocaust?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Catman wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Mandela was a hero in the truest sense of the word -- he was incredibly brave, always tried to steer himself toward doing the right thing for people, and when he veered from the moral path, he admitted it and apologized. Because of this, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, he'll continue to inspire the world for centuries to come.

Only a hero to some Ben, not everybody.

He'll soon find out what you're all about...

Hi Catman, I guess so because I will be posting my viewpoint on the events which are being discussed.

.....Please expand on why you don't like Madiba?

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick

Text not showing please sign tributes at link.

Catman wrote:http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick

Text not showing please sign tributes at link.

But Hopenothate have their own variation of hatred.

http://news.sky.com/story/1180483/cameron-and-obamas-selfie-at-mandela-service

.....Surprised at Obama tbf.  

I'm not surprised at all.

Would you want to join that 3 in a "selfie"?

BigAndy9 wrote:I'm not surprised at all.

Would you want to join that 3 in a "selfie"?

yes, 3 world leaders in one shot, pretty good.

I think Michelle thinks it is a bad Idea, look at there expression.

  

@cat
so you think Obama was flirting?   
Cause Michelle really doesn't look happy.

...They probably had a row or something...We all do at times!   

veya_victaous wrote:@cat
so you think Obama was flirting?   
Cause Michelle really doesn't look happy.

In a diplomatic sense!

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

the question that springs to my mind having read quite a few of your posts so far is do they have as much hate in their hearts as you do?

Catman wrote:

Wonder what happened to him!  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Terre'Blanche

wasn't he hacked to death in his home by black workers?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Indeed , if the Norwegian terrorist Breivik gets out of prison and spends the rest of his life preaching peace an reconciliation ,and then is given a Nobel peace prize , he will still be a terrorist in the eyes of many.

Yes lets see if he does, though as he actually killed all these children and believes in the same ideological nonsense as Muslims, I doubt it and I see that even if he states he is sorry he would need to o something as big as Mandela to united the world behind him and do a great thing.

Then you can come back and say that

What's so ironic to me about these attacks on Mandela from the right in America is that they come from many of the same people who talk about taking up arms in a violent overthrow of the Obama administration.

Now let's just think about how white Americans have it today compared to how black South Africans had it under apartheid ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:What's so ironic to me about these attacks on Mandela from the right in America is that they come from many of the same people who talk about taking up arms in a violent overthrow of the Obama administration.

Now let's just think about how white Americans have it today compared to how black South Africans had it under apartheid ...

Good point Ben.

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Yes we kill people in war it happens to this very day, we bomb people like today where there was a wedding and 13 innocent people were killed for no crime they committed, is that not a terrorist act by your logic also then. Again nobody has tried to justify any of the bombings or any or the crimes from both sides, but you look at only he as the terrorist, when the Apartheid Government was also committing terrorism by murder and torture, you only look at one side of the argument not both, when both sides did wrong and ignore this came about because apartheid treated people lesser than humans, something you are it seems unable to put your own mind into a similar situation.
Would you like pictures of all the beatings to deaths or blacks by the Apartheid government, would that also show again both who committed acts were wrong? So by your logic both sides were committing terrorist acts as they were both killing civilians and yet again we have seen countless civilians die throughout conflicts, should we thus by your logic not have reconciled with Japan or Germany?  

Yes try and actually see how you would cope under such oppression, because as of yet you only see some of the crimes, done, not the years of crimes committed against the blacks.
No killings are ever justified, including in war, because to have to kill someone you know something has gone too far. War is in itself a crime, so if you want to go down that road am happy to oblige on the wrongs of this also, so do you wish to constantly cast blame, whilst ignoring the plight of many others, because that is what you are doing,

Leopards do not change their spots.

Leopards don't but humans do.

PhilDidge wrote:Leopards don't but humans do.

I think your thinking of Acne.