So Let's Have A Proper Debate - Illness Which Can't Be Seen By A Doctor

6th May 2014

Depression - how is it diagnosed by "medical professionals" - some on here shout at us because we question these things and they say "so you know better than the professionals?".

Pain/bad back - unless you have an MR scan and have deformities we have to take your word for it that you're in so much pain you can't get out of bed. Hey, who are we to argue?

Can anybody think of any more illnesses where we just have to take their word for it?

BigAndy9 wrote:6th May 2014

Depression - how is it diagnosed by "medical professionals" - some on here shout at us because we question these things and they say "so you know better than the professionals?".

Pain/bad back - unless you have an MR scan and have deformities we have to take your word for it that you're in so much pain you can't get out of bed.  Hey, who are we to argue?

Can anybody think of any more illnesses where we just have to take their word for it?

...a big throbbing sore cock,I've got the scans for that too, could you rub that better for me Andy!

Ignore any silliness by some who will do their best to disrupt good debate.

BigAndy9 wrote:6th May 2014

Depression - how is it diagnosed by "medical professionals" - some on here shout at us because we question these things and they say "so you know better than the professionals?".

Pain/bad back - unless you have an MR scan and have deformities we have to take your word for it that you're in so much pain you can't get out of bed.  Hey, who are we to argue?

Can anybody think of any more illnesses where we just have to take their word for it?

Andy,you don't have to take someone's word that they have depression.Doctors are able to ascertain if someone is lying or not.You cannot pretend to have depression very easily.

It can be very severe and serious and people's behavior gives them away if they are lying.You can't just go int a doctors office and 'pretend to be down',if that's what you think.

People who are depressed don't act the same as those who are functioning normally and its difficult to fake some very subtle cues that help the doctor ascertain if someone is being truthful or not.Someone very depressed with non reactive depression will be withdrawn and unable to function properly,their speech will be listless if they talk at all,they won't care what happens to them,they won't care if they live or die or if they receive their flipping benefits or not.

Other symptoms could be a highly emotional person,someone who can't stop crying all the time for instance.Can this be faked,can someone force themselves to cry non stop in order to obtain benefits,I don't know tbh,it seems like alot of hard work.

This thread is just another WUM,trying to poke fun at people as he has done so in the past , Andy the not-very-good- expert rubbishing Autism, Aspergers, mental illness and many physical illnesses.

Stop being a knob Andy, and I might stop giving you the knob end answers you deserve, now get doon on Kaka

 :askissas:

Oh,I thought it was a serious thread.  

It is a difficult one Andy and one always evolving.

In 1975 there was no diagnostic test for Multiple Sclerosis - it could not be seen, it was just a bunch of symptoms described as a condition and a significant number of doctors were of the opinion that it did not exist it was malingering and made up by people too lazy to live properly. Then researchers discovered the demyelination of nerve fibres - it could be seen and there was a diagnosable difference. Then for years doctors accepted it as real but the majority of patients were still diagnosed without scans because the scans were new and expensive - now anyone with suspected MS will be scanned to confirm it.

Fibromyalgia is following a similar path - just after I was diagnosed researchers started finding testable differences using a new type of scanning and lots of doctors who previously claimed fibro was not real it was just malingering and laziness now accept that OK it is real but diagnosis is still done on symptoms and pressure points the same as it was on me because there are few scanners available, fewer researchers able to do the tests etc. In 30 years time the chances are everyone with suspected fibro will be scanned and diagnosed that way.

Mental illnesses are slightly different in that physical scans and tests have never been considered that significant and physical symptoms are not the focus anyway but there is still the same evolution.

FluffyBunny wrote:Oh,I thought it was a serious thread.  

Actually it can be - Andy is not always a WUM sometimes he just asks uncomfortable questions - if people answer him seriously he takes them seriously - if people attack him for being a WUM he will become one.

People certainly can feign depression when they see a doctor. After all, they don't have to keep it up for very long.

sphinx wrote:It is a difficult one Andy and one always evolving.

In 1975 there was no diagnostic test for Multiple Sclerosis - it could not be seen, it was just a bunch of symptoms described as a condition and a significant number of doctors were of the opinion that it did not exist it was malingering and made up by people too lazy to live properly.  Then researchers discovered the demyelination of nerve fibres - it could be seen and there was a diagnosable difference.  Then for years doctors accepted it as real but the majority of patients were still diagnosed without scans because the scans were new and expensive - now anyone with suspected MS will be scanned to confirm it.

Fibromyalgia is following a similar path - just after I was diagnosed researchers started finding testable differences using a new type of scanning and lots of doctors who previously claimed fibro was not real it was just malingering and laziness now accept that OK it is real but diagnosis is still done on symptoms and pressure points the same as it was on me because there are few scanners available, fewer researchers able to do the tests etc.  In 30 years time the chances are everyone with suspected fibro will be scanned and diagnosed that way.

Mental illnesses are slightly different in that physical scans and tests have never been considered that significant and physical symptoms are not the focus anyway but there is still the same evolution.  

Hmmm interesting sphinxy.

Raggamuffin wrote:People certainly can feign depression when they see a doctor. After all, they don't have to keep it up for very long.

That's true Ragga.

Quick question for anybody who might know - how often would you need to go back, once you're diagnosed with depression?

Also - how often are those assessments with... can't remember the name now - the French company who are quitting??

BigAndy9 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:People certainly can feign depression when they see a doctor. After all, they don't have to keep it up for very long.

That's true Ragga.

Quick question for anybody who might know - how often would you need to go back, once you're diagnosed with depression?

Also - how often are those assessments with... can't remember the name now - the French company who are quitting??

Need to go back to get effective treatment that goes some way to curing the condition? Or how often will the doctor want to see you to assess if you have got better?

The government assessments are variable depending on the condition - I have known of people having 3 assessments in a year, the general yard stick is one every 2 years (with the patient required to inform the government if their condition changes either for better or worse). Some people only ever get assessed once - which has been used as a reason that people were getting away with conning but actually generally the one off assessments were sensible decisions. If someone is 50 and has suffered a massive trauma leaving them in a persistent vegetative state with both legs amputated then paying someone to reassess them every 2 years is a waste of money. Again all cases require that the patient or their representative notify the government of any change for better or worse.

FluffyBunny wrote:Oh,I thought it was a serious thread.  

Na, it's Andy' s party piece and excuse to pick on people with certain conditions and illnesses Fluffy, he's done it for ages and is looking for a reaction.  

Just like the stuff about blacks, Muslims and immigrants...

Poor sport.

Joy Division wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:Oh,I thought it was a serious thread.  

Na, it's Andy' s party piece and excuse to pick on people with certain conditions and illnesses Fluffy, he's done it for ages and is looking for a reaction.  

Just like the stuff about blacks, Muslims and immigrants...

Poor sport.

Not at all JD - what happens is Andy asks something then you and others tell him why you believe he is asking the question and never bother answering it.

Why dont you try answering the question and see what happens because the question is valid no matter who asked it.

sphinx wrote:

Joy Division wrote:

Na, it's Andy' s party piece and excuse to pick on people with certain conditions and illnesses Fluffy, he's done it for ages and is looking for a reaction.  

Just like the stuff about blacks, Muslims and immigrants...

Poor sport.

Not at all JD - what happens is Andy asks something then you and others tell him why you believe he is asking the question and never bother answering it.

Why dont you try answering the question and see what happens because the question is valid no matter who asked it.

Cause there usually ridiculous questions which are often only asked to wind people up Sphinx...

As well as making ridiculously childish posts saying the unemployed should not be allowed holidays, that's the kind of babble Andy spouts out Sphinx, I just can't take him seriously...

There is just no serious debate with him, no reasoning , no meet in the middle and try to see each other's views Sphinx, Andy is Andy ,he is closed minded and like some other RW..,thinks he is right on everything,full stop.

Most people suss him out after a wee while Sphinx, and the ones who don't are just like him.

So what's the pint in 'debating' with him or people like that?..closed lugs and open jugs?..Nah.  



Apart from his racism and verbally bashing the poor, the guy is ok!!

Joy Division wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Not at all JD - what happens is Andy asks something then you and others tell him why you believe he is asking the question and never bother answering it.

Why dont you try answering the question and see what happens because the question is valid no matter who asked it.

Cause there usually ridiculous questions which are often only asked to wind people up Sphinx...

As well as making ridiculously childish posts saying the unemployed should not be allowed holidays, that's the kind of babble Andy spouts out Sphinx, I just can't take him seriously...

There is just no serious debate with him, no reasoning , no meet in the middle and try to see each other's views Sphinx, Andy is Andy ,he  is closed minded and like some other RW..,thinks he is right on everything,full stop.

Most people suss him out after a wee while Sphinx, and the ones who don't are just like him.

So what's the pint in 'debating' with him or people like that?..closed lugs and open jugs?..Nah.  



Apart from his racism and verbally bashing the poor, the guy is ok!!

Remove andy from the equation and tell me what is ridiculous about questioning illnesses which cannot be seen.

Forget about everything else he has said and might say and what you think he thinks and tell me what is ridiculous about questioning illnesses which cannot be seen.

I don't think a policy of skepticism is an appropriate approach to depression.
It's a serious thing that isn't always taken as seriously as it should.

Am unsure. I may have had depression at least once. Diagnosed and then rediagnosed as post natal, and then concluded only normal behaviour due to my cancer treatment.......

Anyway given various meds. Felt worse so eventually went cold turkey and removed myself from them. Prescription still sitting in our chemist. Never collected the repeat. Not one phone call from either chemist nor GP..... Been off at two years.

Have down days but am alive and thinking straight again instead of fuzzy wuzzy and having a very poor memory.

BigAndy9 wrote:6th May 2014

Depression - how is it diagnosed by "medical professionals" - some on here shout at us because we question these things and they say "so you know better than the professionals?".

Pain/bad back - unless you have an MR scan and have deformities we have to take your word for it that you're in so much pain you can't get out of bed.  Hey, who are we to argue?

Can anybody think of any more illnesses where we just have to take their word for it?

  

YOUR claim to having a sensibly working brain between your ears poses the same medical problem, L'ilAndy !!!

WE can only take your word for that possibility, no matter how outlandish it may appear..   

gerber wrote:Am unsure.  I may have had depression at least once.  Diagnosed and then rediagnosed as post natal, and then concluded only normal behaviour due to my cancer treatment.......

Anyway given various meds.  Felt worse so eventually went cold turkey and removed myself from them.  Prescription still sitting in our chemist.  Never collected the repeat.  Not one phone call from either chemist nor GP.....  Been off at two years.

Have down days but am alive and thinking straight again instead of fuzzy wuzzy and having a very poor memory.

Yeah, there are studies that say that anti-depressants make the problem worse.
Either way sucks you had to go through that.

Raggamuffin wrote:
People certainly can feign depression when they see a doctor. After all, they don't have to keep it up for very long.

 :-:cawg:-: 

THE voice of experience... ::happ:: 

Hi Andy.

My brother was a always a very good-looking, sociable and hard-working man. He rose to very high ranks within the Royal Bank of Scotland (actually he was the youngest person to ever hold his positron), and had lots of friends and a busy social life.

He suddenly , and without warning really, became depressed. It happened round about the time our dad died - about 2003, and also his daughter and her mum moved to Spain.

He just spiralled downwards. Stopped going to work (he was on full sick pay for months).
He was assessed continually by his own doctors, ones he paid for and ones provided by the bank.
No one knew why he was depressed. They said it may have been a chemical imbalance.

His daughter came back from Spain within a year, he eventually coped with my dad's passing (time heals and all that) yet he was still no better.
He suffered panic attacks, he suffered feeling so unwell he wouldn't and couldn't leave his house.

Nearly eleven years on he's better but not healed. He still gets panic attacks occasionally and can't always tolerate stress. My mums recent head trauma was hard for him to cope with but he did cope.

He did find Bowen Treatment helpful but nothing has "cured" him.

That's the background; ask me whatever else you want and I'll try and answer via my own memory or I'll ask him.

eddie wrote:Hi Andy.

My brother was a always a very good-looking, sociable and hard-working man. He rose to very high ranks within the Royal Bank of Scotland (actually he was the youngest person to ever hold his positron), and had lots of friends and a busy social life.

He suddenly , and without warning really, became depressed. It happened round about the time our dad died - about 2003, and also his daughter and her mum moved to Spain.

He just spiralled downwards. Stopped going to work (he was on full sick pay for months).
He was assessed continually by his own doctors, ones he paid for and ones provided by the bank.
No one knew why he was depressed. They said it may have been a chemical imbalance.

His daughter came back from Spain within a year, he eventually coped with my dad's passing (time heals and all that) yet he was still no better.
He suffered panic attacks, he suffered feeling so unwell he wouldn't and couldn't leave his house.

Nearly eleven years on he's better but not healed. He still gets panic attacks occasionally and can't always tolerate stress. My mums recent head trauma was hard for him to cope with but he did cope.

He did find Bowen Treatment helpful but nothing has "cured" him.

That's the background; ask me whatever else you want and I'll try and answer via my own memory or I'll ask him.

Hope you mum's head is healing. Cor blimey you've been through the mill a tad. You are a super star for all the coping.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:People certainly can feign depression when they see a doctor. After all, they don't have to keep it up for very long.

That's true Ragga.

No..it isn't.

Samhraí wrote:I don't think a policy of skepticism is an appropriate approach to depression.
It's a serious thing that isn't always taken as seriously as it should.

Indeed it should Queen, I lost a very close relative to depression in 2003.

FluffyBunny wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


That's true Ragga.

No..it isn't.

People can fake disorders.
It has happened many times before with various disorders.

I think depression and sufferers of it should be treated more seriously but that doesn't mean that the disorder is impossible to fake.

It would be difficult to do with a competent Doctor, psychiatrist or whatever obviously though.

Joy Division wrote:

Samhraí wrote:I don't think a policy of skepticism is an appropriate approach to depression.
It's a serious thing that isn't always taken as seriously as it should.

Indeed it should Queen, I lost a very close relative to depression in 2003.

Sorry to hear that.

Samhraí wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

No..it isn't.

People can fake disorders.
It has happened many times before with various disorders.

I think depression and sufferers of it should be treated more seriously but that doesn't mean that the disorder is impossible to fake.

It might not be impossible to fake but it's not easy to either.

Samhraí wrote:I don't think a policy of skepticism is an appropriate approach to depression.
It's a serious thing that isn't always taken as seriously as it should.

I dont deny that but incidents like white Dee do not help.

Samhraí wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

No..it isn't.

People can fake disorders.
It has happened many times before with various disorders.

I think depression and sufferers of it should be treated more seriously but that doesn't mean that the disorder is impossible to fake.

The irony of the matter is that proper in depth treatment is the thing that makes faking more difficult - if all depression was treated as seriously as it should be faking would be near impossible but because depression is generally not treated seriously but just has a repeat prescription for antibiotics thrown at patients then it is fakable.

I mean you read Eddies description above and it is clear her brother went through hell - and it is also clear that there was no chance of him going to Majorca for a few days holiday because depression does not give holidays.