A thought for discussion

by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:04 pm

Post a quote, famous or otherwise and let’s discuss it, see if we agree, disagree or we can improve upon the quote.

I’ll start with this one:

by Maddog Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:18 pm

He was a stoic so I would think most emotions were considered a break from rational thought and actions. I'd say being angry over trivial matters is a bad idea. But there are times that anger is justified and even helpful.

by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:35 pm

I’m not interested in who said the quote to be fair.

Read the quote again. Do you think it’s true?

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 pm

"Any person capable of angering you becomes your master."

Taken literally, this says to me, any person capable of doing anything that provokes an angry response from you is in control of you.

If you hurt someone I love, you might consider yourself in control of me if you were trying to get me to hurt you -- but that's about the only sense in which I agree with this statement.

by Maddog Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:54 pm

eddie wrote:I’m not interested in who said the quote to be fair.

Read the quote again. Do you think it’s true?

Maddog wrote: . I'd say being angry over trivial matters is a bad idea. But there are times that anger is justified and even helpful

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:06 pm

Slaves revolted in anger that anyone would designate himself as their master. Anger has a way of deposing masters, rather than creating them.

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:11 pm

I'd like to put up my own sig quote for discussion:

A thought for discussion D5W7iXgW4AEwnqK

by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:22 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Slaves revolted in anger that anyone would designate himself as their master. Anger has a way of deposing masters, rather than creating them.

I think the quote is simply saying “don’t give your power away” in other words don’t allow someone to steal your day.

Slavery is an extreme example - but to really change something you have to keep your anger in check and use your head to change things. Anger makes you lose your head.

by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:29 pm

What I’m clumsily trying to say is this:

All big changes like slavery etc START from a place of anger - this will be the motivational force - but anger means you’ve lost control, you’ve lost power...you give your power away when you get angry.

Big changes come from calm, rational, centred power, and that comes from within. Getting angry and acting out when you’re angry doesn’t get you anywhere. People tend to not listen to screaming and shouting.

I hope that makes sense

by Maddog Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:31 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I'd like to put up my own sig quote for discussion:

Sometimes the tolerant really aren't as tolerant as they think they are. And they assign the label of intolerant to those that are actually quite tolerant.

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:36 pm

eddie wrote:What I’m clumsily trying to say is this:

All big changes like slavery etc START from a place of anger - this will be the motivational force - but anger means you’ve lost control, you’ve lost power...you give your power away when you get angry.

Big changes come from calm, rational, centred power, and that comes from within. Getting angry and acting out when you’re angry doesn’t get you anywhere. People tend to not listen to screaming and shouting.

I hope that makes sense

I understand what you're saying. I think I disagree with the quote because I don't think anger automatically means you've lost control. I think anger can give you focus and purpose as well, and make you approach solving a problem more seriously than you would if you weren't bothered.

by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:38 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:What I’m clumsily trying to say is this:

All big changes like slavery etc START from a place of anger - this will be the motivational force - but anger means you’ve lost control, you’ve lost power...you give your power away when you get angry.

Big changes come from calm, rational, centred power, and that comes from within. Getting angry and acting out when you’re angry doesn’t get you anywhere. People tend to not listen to screaming and shouting.

I hope that makes sense

I understand what you're saying. I think I disagree with the quote because I don't think anger automatically means you've lost control. I think anger can give you focus and purpose as well, and make you approach solving a problem more seriously than you would if you weren't bothered.

Nobody thinks or acts clearly when they’re angry. It overpowers you and therefore it becomes your master, even for that brief moment.

Nobody likes the feeling of anger. So it cannot be a good thing.

by Maddog Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:56 pm

Anger is really just a form of fear. It can trigger the flee or fight response, both of which may be appropriate in certain instances.

If the flee or fight response is triggered by someone looking at you funny, you probably have a problem.

If that response is triggered by someone swinging a baseball bat at you, I would say it's justified.

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:02 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:I'd like to put up my own sig quote for discussion:

Sometimes the tolerant really aren't as tolerant as they think they are. And they assign the label of intolerant to those that are actually quite tolerant.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the tolerant are truly tolerant and the intolerant are truly intolerant.

by Syl Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:50 pm

eddie wrote:Post a quote, famous or otherwise and let’s discuss it, see if we agree, disagree or we can improve upon the quote.

I’ll start with this one:

I would say if a person has the power to anger you, then yes, they are controlling you.

However anger is often caused by a situation rather than one person.
I can read about the unjust treatment someone has sufferred and get angry. Sometimes anger spurs us on to change things.

by Maddog Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 am

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:Post a quote, famous or otherwise and let’s discuss it, see if we agree, disagree or we can improve upon the quote.

I’ll start with this one:

I would say if a person has the power to anger you, then yes, they are controlling you.

However anger is often caused by a situation rather than one person.
I can read about the unjust treatment someone has sufferred and get angry. Sometimes anger spurs us on to change things.

Yes, say you saw a 10 year old boy beating a 5 year old boy. That older boy would anger you, and make you react.

I think anger isn't as bad as rage. Don't ask me what the difference is. I can't quantify it.

by Maddog Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:19 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Sometimes the tolerant really aren't as tolerant as they think they are. And they assign the label of intolerant to those that are actually quite tolerant.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the tolerant are truly tolerant and the intolerant are truly intolerant.

Well, in that hypothetical I guess that can make some sense, but I think we are all tolerant and intolerant.

Depends on the issue. Let's take a girl I dated a few years ago. She was tolerant of Blacks, homosexuals and the typical minority groups that are defined as such.

But as an Albanian who lost family members to Serbians, she would have nothing to do with them. She loathed them. It's not a big deal in Texas because Serbs aren't real common around here. Her disdain also extended to Russians and Communists, but not as much. So while you would think she was tolerant, she had some intolerances that were hard to understand.

Asians also have some weird intolerances for others too. But I tolerate their culture even though it has some intolerant features.

I think I see a lot of folks that claim to be standing up to intolerance as judgemental virtue signallers.

by Syl Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:23 am

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

I would say if a person has the power to anger you, then yes, they are controlling you.

However anger is often caused by a situation rather than one person.
I can read about the unjust treatment someone has sufferred and get angry. Sometimes anger spurs us on to change things.

Yes, say you saw a 10 year old boy beating a 5 year old boy. That older boy would anger you, and make you react.

I think anger isn't as bad as rage. Don't ask me what the difference is. I can't quantify it.

Rage is a frightening emotion, I doubt it can be channelled like anger can.

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Sometimes the tolerant really aren't as tolerant as they think they are. And they assign the label of intolerant to those that are actually quite tolerant.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the tolerant are truly tolerant and the intolerant are truly intolerant.

Well, in that hypothetical I guess that can make some sense, but I think we are all tolerant and intolerant.

Depends on the issue. Let's take a girl I dated a few years ago. She was tolerant of Blacks, homosexuals and the typical minority groups that are defined as such.

But as an Albanian who lost family members to Serbians, she would have nothing to do with them. She loathed them. It's not a big deal in Texas because Serbs aren't real common around here. Her disdain also extended to Russians and Communists, but not as much. So while you would think she was tolerant, she had some intolerances that were hard to understand.

Asians also have some weird intolerances for others too. But I tolerate their culture even though it has some intolerant features.

I think I see a lot of folks that claim to be standing up to intolerance as judgemental virtue signallers.

But the point is that if intolerant tendencies aren't resisted by the tolerant, they will stamp out tolerance itself because, after all, the enemy of intolerance is tolerance.

So if we say that intolerance must be tolerated, we're saying we must embrace the one thing that will destroy a tolerant society.

by Maddog Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:28 pm

You're assuming the intolerance will spread to the tolerant.

I don't believe it will.

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:32 pm

Maddog wrote:You're assuming the intolerance will spread to the tolerant.

I don't believe it will.

But the intolerant don't limit themselves to speech, do they?

They elect presidents, try to rig elections, try to overturn elections, etc.

by Original Quill Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:35 pm

by Maddog Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:37 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:You're assuming the intolerance will spread to the tolerant.

I don't believe it will.

But the intolerant don't limit themselves to speech, do they?

They elect presidents, try to rig elections, try to overturn elections, etc.

Amd the tolerant do their thing too.

Do you think my ex GF could make you intolerant of Serbians like she is/was?

Or would her intolerances be something you could tolerate like I did, without it changing my views on Serbians?

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Okay, we're talking about very different things.

But you know there are people in America who want a race war, who want liberals locked up or worse, etc.

by eddie Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:

I quite agree. If one is made to feel inferior then perhaps one secretly thinks that of oneself?

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:38 pm

Original Quill wrote:

Some people will, however, try very hard to make you believe that everyone sees you as inferior.

by HoratioTarr Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:16 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Some people will, however, try very hard to make you believe that everyone sees you as inferior.

That says a lot about them.

by eddie Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:26 pm

One of my favourites.

What say you?

by Maddog Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:34 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, we're talking about very different things.

But you know there are people in America who want a race war, who want liberals locked up or worse, etc.

And I can tolerate their beliefs until they harm someone. Sorta like the Westboro weirdos. I was there at a funeral they said they were going to protest. I can tolerate their beliefs, but not their actions.

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:43 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, we're talking about very different things.

But you know there are people in America who want a race war, who want liberals locked up or worse, etc.

And I can tolerate their beliefs until they harm someone. Sorta like the Westboro weirdos. I was there at a funeral they said they were going to protest. I can tolerate their beliefs, but not their actions.

I have all the tolerance in the world for people's ideas, but not when they're calling for violence or oppression.

by Syl Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:

I would say that's true, but I can understand how it could easily happen.

by Syl Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:51 pm

eddie wrote:One of my favourites.

What say you?

Not sure about that.
An accomplished liar can say little and still be believed.

by Maddog Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

And I can tolerate their beliefs until they harm someone. Sorta like the Westboro weirdos. I was there at a funeral they said they were going to protest. I can tolerate their beliefs, but not their actions.

I have all the tolerance in the world for people's ideas, but not when they're calling for violence or oppression.

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

by eddie Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:30 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:One of my favourites.

What say you?

Not sure about that.
An accomplished liar can say little and still be believed.

You may be missing the point. The truth doesn’t need any “dressing” to be believed, it’s simple, plain and just is. It doesn’t leave a question mark.
A lie, however needs an awful lot of dressing...manipulation, cover-ups, and added layers. It always leaves a question mark.

Think about some of the stories in the media....

by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:54 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

And I can tolerate their beliefs until they harm someone. Sorta like the Westboro weirdos. I was there at a funeral they said they were going to protest. I can tolerate their beliefs, but not their actions.

I have all the tolerance in the world for people's ideas, but not when they're calling for violence or oppression.

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

Mothafucka, I've been a left-libertarian my whole life. It all comes down to what you think an entity that taxes you should owe you.

You want to pay as little as possible because you don't think the government does much right and that for-profit ventures are better. That's your right, but I have the right to disagree with you. I think that people in the government are basically just like everyone else, and that the profit motive can motivate people to cut corners, not to mention costing more to the public than the non-profit government does.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's simply this -- the duty of the government is to create the sort of system that results in as much happiness as possible for as many people as possible.

by Maddog Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:46 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

Mothafucka, I've been a left-libertarian my whole life. It all comes down to what you think an entity that taxes you should owe you.

You want to pay as little as possible because you don't think the government does much right and that for-profit ventures are better. That's your right, but I have the right to disagree with you. I think that people in the government are basically just like everyone else, and that the profit motive can motivate people to cut corners, not to mention costing more to the public than the non-profit government does.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's simply this -- the duty of the government is to create the sort of system that results in as much happiness as possible for as many people as possible.

We sorta agree on that too. I just believe that government does that by exerting as little force on people as possible.

by Maddog Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:54 pm

by Syl Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:23 pm

Another to add...Strong WOMEN create good men. Wink

by Maddog Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:28 pm

Syl wrote:Another to add...Strong WOMEN create good men.

True.

I think the quote should be modernized to use the word people in lieu of men.

by eddie Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:00 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

And I can tolerate their beliefs until they harm someone. Sorta like the Westboro weirdos. I was there at a funeral they said they were going to protest. I can tolerate their beliefs, but not their actions.

I have all the tolerance in the world for people's ideas, but not when they're calling for violence or oppression.

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

I am??? Tell me more please.

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:05 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

Mothafucka, I've been a left-libertarian my whole life. It all comes down to what you think an entity that taxes you should owe you.

You want to pay as little as possible because you don't think the government does much right and that for-profit ventures are better. That's your right, but I have the right to disagree with you. I think that people in the government are basically just like everyone else, and that the profit motive can motivate people to cut corners, not to mention costing more to the public than the non-profit government does.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's simply this -- the duty of the government is to create the sort of system that results in as much happiness as possible for as many people as possible.

We sorta agree on that too. I just believe that government does that by exerting as little force on people as possible.

If you agree with that, then you're a utilitarian, like me. We just disagree on policy.

by Maddog Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:09 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

I am??? Tell me more please.

One of your guiding principles appears to be to leave people the hell alone, even if they are harming themselves. You don't appear to worship the state as a force for good, always looking out for the interests of it's citizens.

by eddie Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:11 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So you have some tolerance for the intolerant. Just not those that want to aggress against others.

You're turning into a libertarian. I think your wife is wearing off on you as she's more libertarian than she or you realize.

I am??? Tell me more please.

One of your guiding principles appears to be to leave people the hell alone, even if they are harming themselves. You don't appear to worship the state as a force for good, always looking out for the interests of it's citizens.

That’s a pretty fairly accurate description, in general.

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:56 pm

There are many types of libertarians; the predominant type in America has an irrational fear and hatred of anything to do with the government and sees the government as a parasite.

They think taxation is theft and tend to have very strong opinions about things they don't understand nearly as well as they think they do after watching a few biased YouTube videos. (They also think watching YouTube videos is research.)

They really like gold and Bitcoin, and they're fond of microbrewed beer, beard-having, and bears. They really go for things that start with "be," actually.

They all want to end the Fed, but only one in 100 knows why, and those who do know don't know why America has the Federal Reserve (because they don't watch YouTube videos about that).

A lot of them really like cars, gadgetry, etc. Anything that could be described in one of those schematics in light blue ink on white paper, so long as there's always an answer. Most of them are probably somewhere on the spectrum.

I'd say a good 80 percent of libertarians consider themselves smarter than people who are not libertarians -- I suspect this attitude comes from YouTube videos as well.

They all love Ron Paul. Like, LOVE the guy.

I can go on if anybody's interested.

by Maddog Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:03 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:There are many types of libertarians; the predominant type in America has an irrational fear and hatred of anything to do with the government and sees the government as a parasite.

They think taxation is theft and tend to have very strong opinions about things they don't understand nearly as well as they think they do after watching a few biased YouTube videos. (They also think watching YouTube videos is research.)

They really like gold and Bitcoin, and they're fond of microbrewed beer, beard-having, and bears. They really go for things that start with "be," actually.

They all want to end the Fed, but only one in 100 knows why, and those who do know don't know why America has the Federal Reserve (because they don't watch YouTube videos about that).

A lot of them really like cars, gadgetry, etc. Anything that could be described in one of those schematics in light blue ink on white paper, so long as there's always an answer. Most of them are probably somewhere on the spectrum.

I'd say a good 80 percent of libertarians consider themselves smarter than people who are not libertarians -- I suspect this attitude comes from YouTube videos as well.

They all love Ron Paul. Like, LOVE the guy.

I can go on if anybody's interested.

I bet I know more Libertarians than you do.

You are close on a few.

Off on others.

by Maddog Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:07 pm

The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, is a concept in which "aggression", defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong. ... In contrast to pacifism, the NAP does not forbid forceful defense.

This is the basic ideology that binds libertarians who could be anarchists, minarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntarists or capital "L" Libertarians (those in the party itself).

by Ben Reilly Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:53 pm

Maddog wrote:The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, is a concept in which "aggression", defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong. ... In contrast to pacifism, the NAP does not forbid forceful defense.

This is the basic ideology that binds libertarians who could be anarchists, minarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntarists or capital "L" Libertarians (those in the party itself).

I know this. My right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose; i.e., do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone besides possibly yourself, i.e. my favorite way of putting it: "A free society doesn't look for reasons to allow people to do things, it demands a logical reason for not allowing people to do something."

But this isn't all that binds American libertarians. They are all equally outraged at the banning of Four Loco, for one thing. They all LOVE gold. I don't know if I said that before.

They're fond of baseball caps. They range in age from late teens to early 50s, and they're almost all men. They have an interest in guns and can obsessively recite obscure facts about them. They think non-libertarians worship "the state" while being unaware of the fact that they themselves worship Elon Musk.

They know who Ayn Rand was, and a bit about her. They probably haven't read "Atlas Shrugged" and they probably haven't even heard of "The Fountainhead." But they shouldn't read either book, because as Dorothy Parker famously said of the former, it's "not a book to be tossed lightly aside. It should be thrown with great force."

They spend a lot of time on mises.org. They care deeply about keeping the government off people's backs, apparently, but really only talk about taxes and business regulation (rather than stuff like abortion and gay marriage).

And one of their "great thinkers" wrote a book not too long ago trying to make the case that people were more free under monarchies than they are under democratic governments, because of something about taxes, superior genetics, and taxes.

They don't really care for democracy -- they call it "two wolves and a sheep voting for what's for dinner." One libertarian I knew actually felt that the act of voting was a violation of the NAP.

Many of them believe the United States was a better country under the Articles of Confederation than under its current constitution.

Ask me for more about libertarians if you have the inclination and the wherewithall.

by Maddog Sat May 01, 2021 1:12 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, is a concept in which "aggression", defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong. ... In contrast to pacifism, the NAP does not forbid forceful defense.

This is the basic ideology that binds libertarians who could be anarchists, minarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntarists or capital "L" Libertarians (those in the party itself).

I know this. My right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose; i.e., do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone besides possibly yourself, i.e. my favorite way of putting it: "A free society doesn't look for reasons to allow people to do things, it demands a logical reason for not allowing people to do something."

But this isn't all that binds American libertarians. They are all equally outraged at the banning of Four Loco, for one thing. They all LOVE gold. I don't know if I said that before.

They're fond of baseball caps. They range in age from late teens to early 50s, and they're almost all men. They have an interest in guns and can obsessively recite obscure facts about them. They think non-libertarians worship "the state" while being unaware of the fact that they themselves worship Elon Musk.

They know who Ayn Rand was, and a bit about her. They probably haven't read "Atlas Shrugged" and they probably haven't even heard of "The Fountainhead." But they shouldn't read either book, because as Dorothy Parker famously said of the former, it's "not a book to be tossed lightly aside. It should be thrown with great force."

They spend a lot of time on mises.org. They care deeply about keeping the government off people's backs, apparently, but really only talk about taxes and business regulation (rather than stuff like abortion and gay marriage).

And one of their "great thinkers" wrote a book not too long ago trying to make the case that people were more free under monarchies than they are under democratic governments, because of something about taxes, superior genetics, and taxes.

They don't really care for democracy -- they call it "two wolves and a sheep voting for what's for dinner." One libertarian I knew actually felt that the act of voting was a violation of the NAP.

Many of them believe the United States was a better country under the Articles of Confederation than under its current constitution.

Ask me for more about libertarians if you have the inclination and the wherewithall.

I don't need to ask you about libertarians.

I'm too busy correcting you about them.

by Maddog Sat May 01, 2021 6:11 pm

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. – Herbert Spencer

by Original Quill Sat May 01, 2021 7:17 pm

Maddog wrote:The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. – Herbert Spencer

Yes, Herbert Spencer, darling of the south, proponent of Social Darwinism, and father of post-slavery racism.

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