do you think we would have less trouble if religion...

Was non existent?...and had never existed?...

Of course the word, would still have some chaos in many parts, but if religion was unknown to man, do you think we would have less trouble than we do now?

There would still be trouble; of course there would; anarchists, nationalists, communists, nazis, racists etc would all still exist and differences of ideology would remain and of course just general idiots, lunatics, and bad people would still exist. So there will always be problems.

However; religion is a massive contributing factor to the worlds problems and always has been. Without religion there will always be bad people doing bad things- but for otherwise good people to commit unspeakable acts of evil or for bigotry to exist in the guise of moral justice- that is where religion comes in.

So there would still be problems- but without religion you would eradicate  sectarianism- such as the Sunni and Shia violence in the Middle-East. Israel and Palenstine would find it a lot easier to reconcile if it wasn't for their difference of opinion on God. The anti-abortion and anti-gay rights lobbies would find their numbers decimated if their religious followers vanished. Homophobia, sexism, even racism, would all still exist without religion- but no one  could ever again be any of those things and make out it was because it was right to be so in God's eyes. And I am almost certain, that with the removal of the absolute belief that in destroying their own lives a suicide bomber would go to paradise; that suicide bombings would disappear entirely in the event of a world without religion. Oh and of course the genital mutilation of girls and boys would come to a sudden stop too!

Sadly the world is too needy and too gullible for such a Utopia to come about- but I wish it would.
So there is my answer  

Eilzel wrote:There would still be trouble; of course there would; anarchists, nationalists, communists, nazis, racists etc would all still exist and differences of ideology would remain and of course just general idiots, lunatics, and bad people would still exist. So there will always be problems.

However; religion is a massive contributing factor to the worlds problems and always has been. Without religion there will always be bad people doing bad things- but for otherwise good people to commit unspeakable acts of evil or for bigotry to exist in the guise of moral justice- that is where religion comes in.

So there would still be problems- but without religion you would eradicate  sectarianism- such as the Sunni and Shia violence in the Middle-East. Israel and Palenstine would find it a lot easier to reconcile if it wasn't for their difference of opinion on God. The anti-abortion and anti-gay rights lobbies would find their numbers decimated if their religious followers vanished. Homophobia, sexism, even racism, would all still exist without religion- but no one  could ever again be any of those things and make out it was because it was right to be so in God's eyes. And I am almost certain, that with the removal of the absolute belief that in destroying their own lives a suicide bomber would go to paradise; that suicide bombings would disappear entirely in the event of a world without religion.

Sadly the world is too needy and too gullible for such a Utopia to come about- but I wish it would.
So there is my answer  

I agree Eilzel, there are still too many issues as you mention, but your quite right,sadly some use religion as an excuse to carry out whatever barbaric acts they so wish,its a real shame for those religious people who do not act in this manner.

Joy Division wrote:

Eilzel wrote:There would still be trouble; of course there would; anarchists, nationalists, communists, nazis, racists etc would all still exist and differences of ideology would remain and of course just general idiots, lunatics, and bad people would still exist. So there will always be problems.

However; religion is a massive contributing factor to the worlds problems and always has been. Without religion there will always be bad people doing bad things- but for otherwise good people to commit unspeakable acts of evil or for bigotry to exist in the guise of moral justice- that is where religion comes in.

So there would still be problems- but without religion you would eradicate  sectarianism- such as the Sunni and Shia violence in the Middle-East. Israel and Palenstine would find it a lot easier to reconcile if it wasn't for their difference of opinion on God. The anti-abortion and anti-gay rights lobbies would find their numbers decimated if their religious followers vanished. Homophobia, sexism, even racism, would all still exist without religion- but no one  could ever again be any of those things and make out it was because it was right to be so in God's eyes. And I am almost certain, that with the removal of the absolute belief that in destroying their own lives a suicide bomber would go to paradise; that suicide bombings would disappear entirely in the event of a world without religion.

Sadly the world is too needy and too gullible for such a Utopia to come about- but I wish it would.
So there is my answer  

I agree Eilzel, there are still too many issues as you mention, but your quite right,sadly some use religion as an excuse to carry out whatever barbaric acts they so wish,its a real shame for those religious people who do not act in this manner.

It is a shame for those people- but there are so many apologists for religious atrocities and hate that are willfully ignorant to the facts of the universe and wonders of science- I do hope to at least live to see the point where over half this country declare no religion whatsoever- I believe I will too- it increased a lot at the last census.

I think to see just how big a difference there would be in a less religious world we need only look at the difference between Austria, Sweden, New Zealand, the UK and other more secular countries- and compare them with very religious countries like Iran, Nigeria, Mexico, Sudan, India and places like that- big difference to see there   

It's a yes from me Les. I can't believe how my opinion has changed, I can't deny that deep down I'm sad about the reality x

of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots

smelly_bandit wrote:of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots  

I quite agree about the instances you give , and I also believe there would still be trouble without religion, but don't you think there would be a bit less without religion?

Joy Division wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots  

I quite agree about the instances you give , and I also believe there would still be trouble without religion, but don't you think there would be a bit less without religion?

no why would there be???

religion is just a belief system which is spiritual in nature

atheism is just another belief system which is reliant on religion to exist

atheism isn't just a disbelief in god its in many cases a militant view that actively opposes religion

so anyone who thinks that atheism would be benign when it was more powerful than religion is dreaming and deluded since there is no reason why one belief system that actively opposes another would peacefully coexist

you cannot stop people believing in something nor can you stop the conflict that comes when two people who believe different things come into contact with each other

smelly_bandit wrote:of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots  

Sure, I hate religion and how it makes people irrational, self-important and judgmental -- but how does that equate to me wanting to kill the religious with my jackboots?

I take a live-and-let-live philosophy, smelly -- if you're not hurting others, I have no problem with you.

It's when you start doing those things that we can all agree are harmful -- killing, stealing, polluting, oppressing -- that I will criticize you with my words. But I have never and will never respond to an opposing idea with violence.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots  

Sure, I hate religion and how it makes people irrational, self-important and judgmental -- but how does that equate to me wanting to kill the religious with my jackboots?

I take a live-and-let-live philosophy, smelly -- if you're not hurting others, I have no problem with you.

It's when you start doing those things that we can all agree are harmful -- killing, stealing, polluting, oppressing -- that I will criticize you with my words. But I have never and will never respond to an opposing idea with violence.

Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:of course not

north Korea is not a religious country and yet they possess the capability to wipe mankind out

Ukraine is currently in turmoil and it has nothing to do with religion

WWI not religious

WWII not religious

there are thousands of conflicts were millions have died and not all of them had to do with religion

humans fight and if you remove religion they will fight for other reasons

i know atheists like to think they are the ultimate paragons of virtue, but the reality is that if atheism overtook religion the atheists would make the inquisition look like a picnic

they would purge any and all religion from the face of the earth

one only needs look at the hatred elizel,ben veya and others have for Christianity to know that many would die under their jack boots  

Sure, I hate religion and how it makes people irrational, self-important and judgmental -- but how does that equate to me wanting to kill the religious with my jackboots?

I take a live-and-let-live philosophy, smelly -- if you're not hurting others, I have no problem with you.

It's when you start doing those things that we can all agree are harmful -- killing, stealing, polluting, oppressing -- that I will criticize you with my words. But I have never and will never respond to an opposing idea with violence.

Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

Sounds wonderful

How do we get to this mythical land of yours

Right; so if anyone cares to look back at posts by Ben, Veya or myself, they would see as much hate as they do from looking back at your smelly? Of course not, don't be ridiculous.

Bear in mind smelly you came here with instant aggression toward Ben and others; so it isn't just a like for like policy, you are a twat with everyone.

The question was would there be less trouble; and the answer is yes. As you know people blow themselves up to kill others because of religion- how many suicide bombers would there be do you think if no one believed they would be rewarded in an afterlife?

Eilzel wrote:Right; so if anyone cares to look back at posts by Ben, Veya or myself, they would see as much hate as they do from looking back at your smelly? Of course not, don't be ridiculous.

Bear in mind smelly you came here with instant aggression toward Ben and others; so it isn't just a like for like policy, you are a twat with everyone.

The question was would there be less trouble; and the answer is yes. As you know people blow themselves up to kill others because of religion- how many suicide bombers would there be do you think if no one believed they would be rewarded in an afterlife?

"My names elizel and I'm a victim"

Grow up

I was looking in before I joined and I was being bad mouthed and lied about before I could even defend myself so don't expect anything other than what you got

The answer is no since not every war or conflict is religiously motivated, remove the religious ones and there is still plenty of conflict to go around

Don't be naive

smelly_bandit wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

Sounds wonderful

How do we get to this mythical land of yours

It's a very basic principle that has been stated many different ways by many different people. Libertarians call it the "non-aggression principle." My right to do anything stops at the point that it interferes with someone else's rights, so my right to not believe in God doesn't extend to violating your right to believe in God.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Right; so if anyone cares to look back at posts by Ben, Veya or myself, they would see as much hate as they do from looking back at your smelly? Of course not, don't be ridiculous.

Bear in mind smelly you came here with instant aggression toward Ben and others; so it isn't just a like for like policy, you are a twat with everyone.

The question was would there be less trouble; and the answer is yes. As you know people blow themselves up to kill others because of religion- how many suicide bombers would there be do you think if no one believed they would be rewarded in an afterlife?

"My names elizel and I'm a victim"

Grow up

I was looking in before I joined and I was being bad mouthed and lied about before I could even defend myself so don't expect anything other than what you got

The answer is no since not every war or conflict is religiously motivated, remove the religious ones and there is still plenty of conflict to go around

Don't be naive

Oh dear silly smelly; you just answered the question in the OP exactly the opposite way you have been arguing.

Question: Would there be LESS (ie: not NO, but LESS) trouble without religion.

Smelly: Remove the religious ones........................

Oh so you admit there ARE troubles caused by religion- nice one; that is what I said. If there are troubles caused by religion then it stands to reason that with no religion there would still be trouble- but less of it.

Well said, and thank you.

Oh and btw, would there be suicide bombers in a world without religion? Yes or no will suffice.

It's greed that causes most of the trouble in the houses, cities, towns, workplaces, countries and the world.

Simple as that. The want for more, more, more.

Greed.

eddie wrote:It's greed that causes most of the trouble in the houses, cities, towns, workplaces, countries and the world.

Simple as that. The want for more, more, more.

Greed.

Disagree with that, being poor and then stealing would not be greed, but desperation.

There is a danger with religions though because they speak of commands and laws laid down by claims to being the word of this deity. For centuries people have taken that as law above anything else and still seen today in some Islamic countries. Thus is anyone falls outside that specific religious group, you then have hostility, as they would see people breaking the deities law. How ever the religions in many including Islam and Christianity also teach not to take innocent life also, so the main problem is interpretation of the written works, where people form there own extreme views as they have done for centuries.
If religion is left to be only a personal belief and plays no part in laws and governing a country, then religion will then have an important role to play for those who have it in their lives, giving them faith. Though religion should never be allowed to Govern a nation

Eilzel wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

"My names elizel and I'm a victim"

Grow up

I was looking in before I joined and I was being bad mouthed and lied about before I could even defend myself so don't expect anything other than what you got

The answer is no since not every war or conflict is religiously motivated, remove the religious ones and there is still plenty of conflict to go around

Don't be naive

Oh dear silly smelly; you just answered the question in the OP exactly the opposite way you have been arguing.

Question: Would there be LESS (ie: not NO, but LESS) trouble without religion.

Smelly: Remove the religious ones........................

Oh so you admit there ARE troubles caused by religion- nice one; that is what I said. If there are troubles caused by religion then it stands to reason that with no religion there would still be trouble- but less of it.

Well said, and thank you.

Oh and btw, would there be suicide bombers in a world without religion? Yes or no will suffice.

of course there is trouble caused by religion you fool

if you remove religion there would be less

if you removed politics there would be less

if you removed money there would be less

if you removed any number on conflicting beliefs and desires there would be less

this thread is idiotic since it is trying to attribute the majority of human conflict to religion and trying to say that if religion didn't exist then we would all be siting by the fire singing campfire songs

bollox

as for suicide bombings??

ever heard of kamikaze pilots??

we would fall out over everything and anything else...

smelly_bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Oh dear silly smelly; you just answered the question in the OP exactly the opposite way you have been arguing.

Question: Would there be LESS (ie: not NO, but LESS) trouble without religion.

Smelly: Remove the religious ones........................

Oh so you admit there ARE troubles caused by religion- nice one; that is what I said. If there are troubles caused by religion then it stands to reason that with no religion there would still be trouble- but less of it.

Well said, and thank you.

Oh and btw, would there be suicide bombers in a world without religion? Yes or no will suffice.

of course there is trouble caused by religion you fool

if you remove religion there would be less

if you removed politics there would be less

if you removed money there would be less

if you removed any number on conflicting beliefs and desires there would be less

this thread is idiotic since it is trying to attribute the majority of human conflict to religion and trying to say that if religion didn't exist then we would all be siting by the fire singing campfire songs

bollox

as for suicide bombings??

ever heard of kamikaze pilots??

DOH

The pilots were taking this from Bushido, which is based upon religions.

Anyway, how many conflicts have there been which have religious influence, for a start, no doubt you would claim the 100 years war with France was not religious, but kings fighting over birth rights, except they all claimed divine right to rule these lands, thus religion being a cause again.
If you think about it religion has been a factor in many conflicts, the conquest of Africa by European nations was based upon also Christian beliefs.

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

of course there is trouble caused by religion you fool

if you remove religion there would be less

if you removed politics there would be less

if you removed money there would be less

if you removed any number on conflicting beliefs and desires there would be less

this thread is idiotic since it is trying to attribute the majority of human conflict to religion and trying to say that if religion didn't exist then we would all be siting by the fire singing campfire songs

bollox

as for suicide bombings??

ever heard of kamikaze pilots??

DOH

The pilots were taking this from Bushido, which is based upon religions.

Anyway, how many conflicts have there been which have religious influence, for a start, no doubt you would claim the 100 years war with France was not religious, but kings fighting over birth rights, except they all claimed divine right to rule these lands, thus religion being a cause again.
If you think about it religion has been a factor in many conflicts, the conquest of Africa by European nations was based upon also Christian beliefs.

age old rubbish,,,"god wills it", never meant God did will it, it was all about glory and wealth, it might as well have been about which way up you should open an egg..  

Bushido was based on religion

if in doubt make it up

 ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


DOH

The pilots were taking this from Bushido, which is based upon religions.

Anyway, how many conflicts have there been which have religious influence, for a start, no doubt you would claim the 100 years war with France was not religious, but kings fighting over birth rights, except they all claimed divine right to rule these lands, thus religion being a cause again.
If you think about it religion has been a factor in many conflicts, the conquest of Africa by European nations was based upon also Christian beliefs.

age old rubbish,,,"god wills it", never meant God did will it, it was all about glory and wealth, it might as well have been about which way up you should open an egg..  

I am not arguing over how people interpret religion and for centuries have done so wrong, but religion is still there as a factor behind the 100 years war, Henry V was always quoting that God was on his side, all very religious. So I understand why people interpret a religion just like your own with Born again, but the undeniable fact is that religion is a factor in vastly many conflicts for centuries.[/quote]

Yes, a lot less trouble.

smelly_bandit wrote:Bushido was based on religion

if in doubt make it up

 ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Bushido was created in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa, ages 9th-12th centuries. Bushido was made from believes from four different religions Buddhism, Zen, Confucianism, and Shintoism. These religions influenced Bushido dramatically. Like Buddhism samurai did not fear death. They believed that as long as you follow the 7 virtues of Bushido you will be reincarnated to something special. Like Zen the samurai of Bushido focused a lot on meditation, and keeping the mind stimulated. The virtue of loyalty came from Shintoism. Bushido disagreed with Confucianism a lot but they did share some of the same virtues like justice, benevolence, love, and sincerity.


http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/01473/bushidohistory.html


DOH

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

age old rubbish,,,"god wills it", never meant God did will it, it was all about glory and wealth, it might as well have been about which way up you should open an egg..  

I am not arguing over how people interpret religion and for centuries have done so wrong, but religion is still there as a factor behind the 100 years war, Henry V was always quoting that God was on his side, all very religious. So I understand why people interpret a religion just like your own with Born again, but the undeniable fact is that religion is a factor in vastly many conflicts for centuries.

[/quote]

it's merely an excuse, the same as politics, should we ban politics, should we ban oil, what else do you want to take away as it may be used to bring one nation against another, lets remove flags and borders and leaders and armies and football teams, in fact all sports...  

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:Bushido was based on religion

if in doubt make it up

 ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Bushido was created in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa, ages 9th-12th centuries.  Bushido was made from believes from four different religions Buddhism, Zen, Confucianism, and Shintoism.  These religions influenced Bushido dramatically.  Like Buddhism samurai did not fear death.  They believed that as long as you follow the 7 virtues of Bushido you will be reincarnated to something special.  Like Zen the samurai of Bushido focused a lot on meditation, and keeping the mind stimulated.  The virtue of loyalty came from Shintoism.  Bushido disagreed with Confucianism a lot but they did share some of the same virtues like justice, benevolence, love, and sincerity.


http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/01473/bushidohistory.html


DOH

Bushido, a modern term rather than a historical one, originates from the samurai moral values, most commonly stressing some combination of frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery, and honor unto death. Born from Neo-Confucianism during times of peace in Tokugawa Japan and following Confucian texts

Shinto also kami-no-michi, is the indigenous spirituality of Japan and the people of Japan. It is a set of practices, to be carried out diligently, to establish a connection between present-day Japan and its ancient past.[1] Founded in 660 BC,[2] Shinto practices were first recorded and codified in the written historical records of the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki in the 8th century. Still, these earliest Japanese writings do not refer to a unified "Shinto religion", but rather to disorganized folklore, history, and mythology

The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity. His followers competed successfully with many other schools during the Hundred Schools of Thought era only to be suppressed in favor of the Legalists during the Qin Dynasty. Following the victory of Han over Chu after the collapse of Qin, Confucius's thoughts received official sanction and were further developed into a system known as Confucianism.

zen is a school of Buddhism mongo

The Buddha said that gods (devas) do exist, but they were regarded as still being in samsara, and are not necessarily wiser than us. In fact, the Buddha is often portrayed as a teacher of the gods,and superior to them.


Since the time of the Buddha, the refutation of the existence of a creator deity has been seen as a key point in distinguishing Buddhist from non-Buddhist views.[5] The question of an independent creator deity was answered by Buddha in the Brahmajala Sutta. The Buddha denounced the view of a creator and sees that such notions are related to the false view of eternalism, and like the 61 other views, this belief causes suffering when one is attached to it and states these views may lead to desire, aversion and delusion. At the end of the Sutta the Buddha says he knows these 62 views and he also knows the truth that surpasses them.

not based on religion

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am not arguing over how people interpret religion and for centuries have done so wrong, but religion is still there as a factor behind the 100 years war, Henry V was always quoting that God was on his side, all very religious. So I understand why people interpret a religion just like your own with Born again, but the undeniable fact is that religion is a factor in vastly many conflicts for centuries.

it's merely an excuse, the same as politics, should we ban politics, should we ban oil, what else do you want to take away as it may be used to bring one nation against another, lets remove flags and borders and leaders and armies and football teams, in fact all sports...  [/quote]



...but the question on this thread Favva was...of folk think there would be less trouble in the world than there is now if religion hadn't been thought of ever known...not speaking about banning it!

PhilDidge wrote:

eddie wrote:It's greed that causes most of the trouble in the houses, cities, towns, workplaces, countries and the world.

Simple as that. The want for more, more, more.

Greed.

Disagree with that, being poor and then stealing would not be greed, but desperation.

There is a danger with religions though because they speak of commands and laws laid down by claims to being the word of this deity. For centuries people have taken that as law above anything else and still seen today in some Islamic countries. Thus is anyone falls outside that specific religious group, you then have hostility, as they would see people breaking the deities law. How ever the religions in many including Islam and Christianity also teach not to take innocent life also, so the main problem is interpretation of the written works, where people form there own extreme views as they have done for centuries.
If religion is left to be only a personal belief and plays no part in laws and governing a country, then religion will then have an important role to play for those who have it in their lives, giving them faith. Though religion should never be allowed to Govern a nation

You've confused greed with need.

I have simplified "greed" into it's simplest form didge. Think about it.

eddie wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Disagree with that, being poor and then stealing would not be greed, but desperation.

There is a danger with religions though because they speak of commands and laws laid down by claims to being the word of this deity. For centuries people have taken that as law above anything else and still seen today in some Islamic countries. Thus is anyone falls outside that specific religious group, you then have hostility, as they would see people breaking the deities law. How ever the religions in many including Islam and Christianity also teach not to take innocent life also, so the main problem is interpretation of the written works, where people form there own extreme views as they have done for centuries.
If religion is left to be only a personal belief and plays no part in laws and governing a country, then religion will then have an important role to play for those who have it in their lives, giving them faith. Though religion should never be allowed to Govern a nation

You've confused greed with need.

I have simplified "greed" into it's simplest form didge. Think about it.

Sorry but no I have not Eddie, you use greed as a ball park when greed like religion can be a factor, but not a man cause necessarily. You said the main cause is greed in causes most of the trouble in the houses, cities, towns, workplaces, countries and the world. I think that is the case for some, but to me the main problem is within intolerant political or religious views, inequality, poverty and envy

I do not think Greed is the major cause though am intrigued to here why you think so Eddie?
I would agree within many businesses this is definitely a factor, but with other areas I think other factors play big roles

Religion is mostly about belief, yes?
People who seek to convert and make people see their way, "their God" is seeking to empower them.
Power is greed. To wish to have power over someone is the want for control.
Want is greed.


Give me any example and I'll show you how in it's simplest form, it is greed.

Ps I'll be back later didge I'm running late lol xx have a great day x

smelly_bandit wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Bushido was created in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa, ages 9th-12th centuries.  Bushido was made from believes from four different religions Buddhism, Zen, Confucianism, and Shintoism.  These religions influenced Bushido dramatically.  Like Buddhism samurai did not fear death.  They believed that as long as you follow the 7 virtues of Bushido you will be reincarnated to something special.  Like Zen the samurai of Bushido focused a lot on meditation, and keeping the mind stimulated.  The virtue of loyalty came from Shintoism.  Bushido disagreed with Confucianism a lot but they did share some of the same virtues like justice, benevolence, love, and sincerity.


http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/01473/bushidohistory.html


DOH

Bushido, a modern term rather than a historical one, originates from the samurai moral values, most commonly stressing some combination of frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery, and honor unto death. Born from Neo-Confucianism during times of peace in Tokugawa Japan and following Confucian texts

Shinto also kami-no-michi, is the indigenous spirituality of Japan and the people of Japan. It is a set of practices, to be carried out diligently, to establish a connection between present-day Japan and its ancient past.[1] Founded in 660 BC,[2] Shinto practices were first recorded and codified in the written historical records of the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki in the 8th century. Still, these earliest Japanese writings do not refer to a unified "Shinto religion", but rather to disorganized folklore, history, and mythology

The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity. His followers competed successfully with many other schools during the Hundred Schools of Thought era only to be suppressed in favor of the Legalists during the Qin Dynasty. Following the victory of Han over Chu after the collapse of Qin, Confucius's thoughts received official sanction and were further developed into a system known as Confucianism.

zen is a school of Buddhism mongo

The Buddha said that gods (devas) do exist, but they were regarded as still being in samsara, and are not necessarily wiser than us. In fact, the Buddha is often portrayed as a teacher of the gods,and superior to them.


Since the time of the Buddha, the refutation of the existence of a creator deity has been seen as a key point in distinguishing Buddhist from non-Buddhist views.[5] The question of an independent creator deity was answered by Buddha in the Brahmajala Sutta. The Buddha denounced the view of a creator and sees that such notions are related to the false view of eternalism, and like the 61 other views, this belief causes suffering when one is attached to it and states these views may lead to desire, aversion and delusion. At the end of the Sutta the Buddha says he knows these 62 views and he also knows the truth that surpasses them.

not based on religion

Hilarious, read back to some of the points you highlighted in red and then say that it has not come from religion.

Maybe this part:

Born from Neo-Confucianism [/color]during times of peace in Tokugawa Japan and following Confucian texts

What did I post:

Bushido was made from believes from four different religions Buddhism, Zen, Confucianism, and Shintoism.



DOH


What an epic own goal from his own source

eddie wrote:Religion is mostly about belief, yes?
People who seek to convert and make people see their way, "their God" is seeking to empower them.
Power is greed. To wish to have power over someone is the want for control.
Want is greed.


Give me any example and I'll show you how in it's simplest form, it is greed.

Ps I'll be back later didge I'm running late lol xx have a great day x

Interesting point Eddie, agree if they are seeking to control people, but if they are trying to convert someone, is it really out of greed, if they feel it will save that person?
Religion as a power or Government, then yes I agree Greed can play a part in control and also with forced conversion

smelly_bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Oh dear silly smelly; you just answered the question in the OP exactly the opposite way you have been arguing.

Question: Would there be LESS (ie: not NO, but LESS) trouble without religion.

Smelly: Remove the religious ones........................

Oh so you admit there ARE troubles caused by religion- nice one; that is what I said. If there are troubles caused by religion then it stands to reason that with no religion there would still be trouble- but less of it.

Well said, and thank you.

Oh and btw, would there be suicide bombers in a world without religion? Yes or no will suffice.

of course there is trouble caused by religion you fool

if you remove religion there would be less

if you removed politics there would be less

if you removed money there would be less

if you removed any number on conflicting beliefs and desires there would be less

this thread is idiotic since it is trying to attribute the majority of human conflict to religion and trying to say that if religion didn't exist then we would all be siting by the fire singing campfire songs

bollox

as for suicide bombings??

ever heard of kamikaze pilots??

The question was not 'is religion the principle cause of trouble in the world?' the question was 'without religion would there be less trouble?'

You have answered the affirmative which is all that mattered.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

Nicely put, that's the crux of it to be honest Ben

Joy Division wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

it's merely an excuse, the same as politics, should we ban politics, should we ban oil, what else do you want to take away as it may be used to bring one nation against another, lets remove flags and borders and leaders and armies and football teams, in fact all sports...  

...but the question on this thread Favva was...of folk think there would be less trouble in the world than there is now if religion hadn't been thought of ever known...not speaking about banning it![/quote]

it still would be know as we would have fallen out over something else..

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

hmm strange tack, so it's ok for gays to be gay, yep fine but why the need for all the gay festivals and having to make every one accept it as normal..

Joy Division wrote:
Was non existent?...and had never existed?...

...............................

  

NO....

AS a significant minority of people still have that need for some form of religion, spiritual guidance or philosophical meanderings in their lives...

Otherwise, they would only fill that void with something potentially a lot darker..
Or maybe be out playing in the traffic.

AND as only around 40% of deaths during wars over the last two millennia, were caused by fights over religion ~ with the four biggest losses of human life on record being cause by "secular" disputes ~ would having no religions really have made it any better ?

SOME will argue that mankind has that great propensity towards killing one another over the flimsiest disputes ~ and if it isn't over a disagreement over their relevant belief systems, they could certainly find some other excuse..    ::rambo::

eddie wrote:
It's greed that causes most of the trouble in the houses, cities, towns, workplaces, countries and the world.

Simple as that. The want for more, more, more.

Greed.

  

Rubbish...

You really haven't thought that one through too throughly, as yet, eddie..

Greed is only one factor in a 'multi-factorial' problem.

Beekeeper wrote:

Joy Division wrote:
Was non existent?...and had never existed?...

...............................

  

NO....

A significant minority of people need some form of religion, spiritual guidance or philosophical meanderings in their lives...

Otherwise, they would only fill that void with something potentially a lot darker..
Or maybe be out playing in the traffic.

AND as only around 40% of deaths during wars over the last two millennia, aere caused by fights over religion ~ with the four biggest losses of human life on record being cause by "secular" disputes ~ would having no religions really have made it any better ?

SOME will argue that mankind has that great propensity towards killing one another over the flimsiest disputes ~ and if it isn't over a disagreement over their relevant belief systems, they could certainly find some other excuse..    ::rambo:: 

Hi Bee


Disagree on WW2 with the Nazi's and the hatred of the Jews mainly stemmed from Lutheranism and there had been centuries of Christian theology with hatred for the Jews. Then you have Japan, a supposed living deity ruling over them, again based around a belief system, this can hardly be discounted as non religious either. So whilst I agree on the Nazi conflict of war with nations to being Sectarian in nature, the hatred of the Jews stemmed from religion, but then one could also argue that Nazism is in itself a pagan religion, so we are drawn back to religion again with this conflict all round.

Eilzel wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

of course there is trouble caused by religion you fool

if you remove religion there would be less

if you removed politics there would be less

if you removed money there would be less

if you removed any number on conflicting beliefs and desires there would be less

this thread is idiotic since it is trying to attribute the majority of human conflict to religion and trying to say that if religion didn't exist then we would all be siting by the fire singing campfire songs

bollox

as for suicide bombings??

ever heard of kamikaze pilots??

The question was not 'is religion the principle cause of trouble in the world?' the question was 'without religion would there be less trouble?'

You have answered the affirmative which is all that mattered.

is that all that matters is it??

you simple minded idiot, do you have any idea how irrelevant my answer is to this question??

probably not because you're quiet stupid and the irrelevance of the question has probably flown miles over your head along with the irrelevance of my answer

 ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg:: 

i bet you had such high hopes for this thread

smelly_bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

The question was not 'is religion the principle cause of trouble in the world?' the question was 'without religion would there be less trouble?'

You have answered the affirmative which is all that mattered.

is that all that matters is it??

you simple minded idiot, do you have any idea how irrelevant my answer is to this question??

probably not because you're quiet stupid and the irrelevance of the question has probably flown miles over your head along with the irrelevance of my answer  

 ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg:: 

i bet you had such high hopes for this thread

Well that read like it was typed by an illiterate neanderthal but I think I get what you are on about. It isn't my thread for a start, so I care not how irrelevant you find the question. But you bitching on (as you do) about everything but the question just exposed your ridiculous defensive nature when religion is in the firing line. So laugh away- I'm assuming you thought whatever you just typed quite amusing    

heavenly father wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


Interesting

You hate religion but operate a "live and let live" policy

How exactly does that work??

Well, it works just like I said. I don't oppose your right to your own beliefs as long as you don't try to make others live by them, outside of the obvious "don't kill, injure or oppress" stuff. You don't need religion to believe people have the right to live, to live unmolested, to their belongings, etc. So believe whatever crazy shit you want, just don't try to force others to follow it.

hmm strange tack, so it's ok for gays to be gay, yep fine but why the need for all the gay festivals and having to make every one accept it as normal..

What's wrong with a festival? Nothing. Nobody is trying to force you to accept it as normal, however; you have the right to your own beliefs -- at the same time, I have the right to say those beliefs are bigoted.

Eilzel wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

is that all that matters is it??

you simple minded idiot, do you have any idea how irrelevant my answer is to this question??

probably not because you're quiet stupid and the irrelevance of the question has probably flown miles over your head along with the irrelevance of my answer  

 ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg::  ::smthg:: 

i bet you had such high hopes for this thread

Well that read like it was typed by an illiterate neanderthal but I think I get what you are on about. It isn't my thread for a start, so I care not how irrelevant you find the question. But you bitching on (as you do) about everything but the question just exposed your ridiculous defensive nature when religion is in the firing line. So laugh away- I'm assuming you thought whatever you just typed quite amusing    

it is amusing

you're stupidity is amusing because you're taking this so seriously



you seem to actually think that a yes or no answer is relevant

  :<:i}: 

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

hmm strange tack, so it's ok for gays to be gay, yep fine but why the need for all the gay festivals and having to make every one accept it as normal..

What's wrong with a festival? Nothing. Nobody is trying to force you to accept it as normal, however; you have the right to your own beliefs -- at the same time, I have the right to say those beliefs are bigoted.

actually saying homosexuality isnt normal results in social vilification and lost of tutting and disapproving looks, so yes people are being forced to accept homosexuality as normal

Not relevant smelly; I'm not taking anything seriously, it's a forum; and I wasn't the one defensively jumping at how many other things cause trouble (an exercise in stating the obvious perhaps?)

Religious trouble of course is one of the main area where the trouble really is pathetic as it is based on superstitious lies.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

What's wrong with a festival? Nothing. Nobody is trying to force you to accept it as normal, however; you have the right to your own beliefs -- at the same time, I have the right to say those beliefs are bigoted.

actually saying homosexuality isnt normal results in social vilification and lost of tutting and disapproving looks, so yes people are being forced to accept homosexuality as normal

Are people who have lost limbs in combat not normal to you?
Should people be vilified if thy claim amputee war victims are not normal?
And your reasons why?

Eilzel wrote:Not relevant smelly; I'm not taking anything seriously, it's a forum;  and I wasn't the one defensively jumping at how many other things cause trouble (an exercise in stating the obvious perhaps?)

Religious trouble of course is one of the main area where the trouble really is pathetic as it is based on superstitious lies.

but you are defensively jumping on the fact that you think Ive answered yes

 ::D:: 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

hmm strange tack, so it's ok for gays to be gay, yep fine but why the need for all the gay festivals and having to make every one accept it as normal..

What's wrong with a festival? Nothing. Nobody is trying to force you to accept it as normal, however; you have the right to your own beliefs -- at the same time, I have the right to say those beliefs are bigoted.

actually saying homosexuality isnt normal results in social vilification and lost of tutting and disapproving looks, so yes people are being forced to accept homosexuality as normal

There's always Russia, smelly. You like the cold?