socialism. next time we will get it right

https://twitter.com/BreakingNLive/status/1099392143792197632

why does it always go that way

So nobody ever set fire to trucks bringing relief in a capitalist society?



That's like blaming abortion clinic bombings on Christianity.

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:So nobody ever set fire to trucks bringing relief in a capitalist society?



That's like blaming abortion clinic bombings on Christianity.

Capitalist societies don't need relief trucks to feed their starving people, unless there has been a natural disaster.

The poor in capitalist countries are obese.

Venezuela should be thriving right now, but it's not because of state control of the means of most production, and central planning, the twin pillars of socialism.

Venezuela is hardly socialist. More like a disaster. I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

Original Quill wrote:Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

They may be corrupt as hell, but that's hardly unusual when the government controls everything. Its not like East Germany ran an ethical system either.

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:So nobody ever set fire to trucks bringing relief in a capitalist society?



That's like blaming abortion clinic bombings on Christianity.

we are talking about a specific action by the darlings of the left

Original Quill wrote:Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

that's always what the apologists say when socialism fails. Not proper socialism, we will get it right next time. no walls are built to keep people out under socialism, it is always to keep them in

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

They may be corrupt as hell, but that's hardly unusual when the government controls everything. Its not like East Germany ran an ethical system either.

Chavez's daughter is worth 4 billion and apparently maduros family members are not far behind. It seems that people who start with nothing get exceedingly rich if they are a running a socialist countryor related to the person running it.
On entirely unconnected news, Billions missing from the venezuelan central bank

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Maddog wrote:
They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

They may be corrupt as hell, but that's hardly unusual when the government controls everything. Its not like East Germany ran an ethical system either.

Chavez's daughter is worth 4 billion and apparently maduros family members are not far behind. It seems that people who start with nothing get exceedingly rich if they are a running a socialist countryor related to the person running it.
On entirely unconnected news, Billions missing from the venezuelan central bank

Happens in 'capitalist' dictatorships and military regimes, just as often as communist ones...

To wit:
Suhartos in Indonesia (their thefts could have been as high as $20 billion !);
Haiti;
Brazil;
Mexico;
Argentina
Nazi Germany..

And then there's generations of "Royal" families;  not to mention the $$billions$$ in plundered resources that various colonial powers took home from the 17th century through to the mid-20th century --  all good right-leaning 'capitalists, the whole miserable lot.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:
Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

..........................
...............

Stop spouting your ignorant bulldust, DopeyDawg...

Your idiotic claim of "a textbook example" is pure garbage, straight out of the far-right wing's disinformation handbook..

The concept of "socialism" is a 'broad church' economics definition -- whereas your constant lies on here, conflating corrupt military regimes claiming to be "Marxist" (though not acting it..) with genuine democratic forms of socialist "mixed economies" is pure bullshit propaganda, through and through.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Maddog wrote:
They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

..........................
...............

Stop spouting your ignorant bulldust, DopeyDawg...

Your idiotic claim of "a textbook example" is pure garbage, straight out of the far-right wing's disinformation handbook..

The concept of "socialism" is a 'broad church' economics definition --  whereas your constant lies on here, conflating corrupt military regimes claiming to be "Marxist" (though not acting it..) with genuine democratic forms of socialist "mixed economies" is pure bullshit propaganda, through and through.

Acually its you being an apologist

This was hailed by the left as the example of wonderful socialism, until it went to shit (which was always going to happen)  and suddenlly all those who hailed this. Went into defense mode, poorly claiming it was not socialism

It seems to the left socialism never has happened, until it succeeds, except in every single example it has failed

So all this crap about what is real socialism, is mere smoke screens, well the left know very well that Socialism in the form of Communism and other examples has been a disaster for those nations

Thor wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


Stop spouting your ignorant bulldust, DopeyDawg...

Your idiotic claim of "a textbook example" is pure garbage, straight out of the far-right wing's disinformation handbook..

The concept of "socialism" is a 'broad church' economics definition --  whereas your constant lies on here, conflating corrupt military regimes claiming to be "Marxist" (though not acting it..) with genuine democratic forms of socialist "mixed economies" is pure bullshit propaganda, through and through.

Acually its you being an apologist

This was hailed by the left as the example of wonderful socialism, until it went to shit (which was always going to happen)  and suddenlly all those who hailed this. Went into defense mode, poorly claiming it was not socialism

It seems to the left socialism never has happened, until it succeeds, except in every single example it has failed

So all this crap about what is real socialism, is mere smoke screens, well the left know very well that Socialism in the form of Communism and other examples has been a disaster for those nations

Never fear next time we will get it right.

Not sure if it is socialism or insanity which is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:


Acually its you being an apologist

This was hailed by the left as the example of wonderful socialism, until it went to shit (which was always going to happen)  and suddenlly all those who hailed this. Went into defense mode, poorly claiming it was not socialism

It seems to the left socialism never has happened, until it succeeds, except in every single example it has failed

So all this crap about what is real socialism, is mere smoke screens, well the left know very well that Socialism in the form of Communism and other examples has been a disaster for those nations

Never fear next time we will get it right.

Not sure if it is socialism or insanity which is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result.

Not in fear they will ever get it right.

I concern myself, people will continue to think doing that same thing over and over again, will bring different results, through a belief in socialism

Thor wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Never fear next time we will get it right.

Not sure if it is socialism or insanity which is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result.

Not in fear they will ever get it right.

I concern myself, people will continue to think doing that same thing over and over again, will bring different results, through a belief in socialism

they've been at it for a hundred years now, every single time it ends with a police state and the citizens desperate to escape from poverty. Every time.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:


Not in fear they will ever get it right.

I concern myself, people will continue to think doing that same thing over and over again, will bring different results, through a belief in socialism

they've been at it for a hundred years now, every single time it ends with a police state and the citizens desperate to escape from poverty. Every time.

Well more with marxism, but I agree, its the left being in denial

Thor wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
they've been at it for a hundred years now, every single time it ends with a police state and the citizens desperate to escape from poverty. Every time.

Well more with marxism, but I agree, its the left being in denial

I am talking the pure ideological socialism rather that the european democratic socialism that results in high taxes

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:


Well more with marxism, but I agree, its the left being in denial

I am  talking the pure ideological socialism rather that the european democratic socialism that results in high taxes

Pure?

You just backed Wolfs poor defensive argument on socialism

Socialism is only ever good in small doses when you understand the biology of humans

What is pure socialism?

That is what wolf was claiming how its not pure socialism and yet you feed into his claim

wow

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Maddog wrote:
They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning. They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago.  

..........................
...............

Stop spouting your ignorant bulldust, DopeyDawg...

Your idiotic claim of "a textbook example" is pure garbage, straight out of the far-right wing's disinformation handbook..

The concept of "socialism" is a 'broad church' economics definition --  whereas your constant lies on here, conflating corrupt military regimes claiming to be "Marxist" (though not acting it..) with genuine democratic forms of socialist "mixed economies" is pure bullshit propaganda, through and through.

What is socialism? 

Would you like me to Google it for you?

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:


Well more with marxism, but I agree, its the left being in denial

I am  talking the pure ideological socialism rather that the european democratic socialism that results in high taxes

Taxes and redistribution are forms of capitalism.  Even the Romans had that.  

That's the "bread" part of bread and circuses.   

The Scandanavian  countries are extremely capitalist  which gives them a good tax base.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

that's always what the apologists say when socialism fails. Not proper socialism, we will get it right next time. no walls are built to keep people out under socialism, it is always to keep them in

Ho-hum. Got anything relevant to say? I mean, "dat's wat yo mommo says..." is not getting to the point.

How about a proper response?

A proper response, socialism is crap-----------OK ?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Venezuela is hardly socialist.  More like a disaster.  I gather there's been a coup, so no telling what they are.

They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning.

Lots of folks have that.  Hell, any good corporation has that.  You are only pointing out that capitalism is a firm cousin of socialism...gone bad.

Maddog wrote:They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago. 

Who?  I haven't been following British politics, ever since the Labour Party became the lap dog of GWB.  As far as Sanders is concerned, I opposed him.  Spent many an evening arguing with Veya on that.

Maddog wrote:They may be corrupt as hell, but that's hardly unusual when the government controls everything.

Corruption is even worse when corporations own everything.  The result is an immense wealth gap, and organized crime in the White House.  Oppps...

You can take any old dictatorship, and call it socialsim, or capitalism, or outter space, for that matter.  If you want' to talk seriously, you won't waste your time (or mine).

Socialism is an economic system, which borrows and makes use of the state in one of its iterations.  It's an answer to the question of the Industrial Revolution...what happens when the tools get too expensive?

So, socialism suggests you all band together (hence "social") and pool resources to buy the tools.  Now, you can do that by putting any institution in the hot seat: government, by guilds, by workers' councils, or indeed, by selling shares of a corporation and buying tools (or factories) that way.  Yes, even capitalism is socialism.

When the system borrows government to assume the hot seat, it's called socialist government.  Or, when people band together privately to form corporations, it could be called private socialism (we choose to call it 'capitalism').  So socialism is not the form of government, but the pressing need to organize to meet a new manner of production.

There is nothing about socialism that isn't the same with any other system of economic organization.  Is ownership centralized?  Yes.  Is planning centralized?  Yes.  Is power centralized?  Inevitably.  If you think there isn't corruption in corporations, think again.  One of them is sitting in the White House right now...and it's Venezuela all over again.  We in the US are just bigger, and it's going to take our corrupt dictator a little longer to break the furniture.

A corporation cant have state control of anything. 

I refused to waste my time reading anything after that ignorant comment.

Maddog wrote:A corporation cant have state control of anything. 

I refused to waste my time reading anything after that ignorant comment.

Running away? Where in your up-bringing did you learn that stratagem? How has it worked for you?

Definition of bullshit

6 years ago the left were hailng Venezuela as the crown Jewels of socialism

3 years later when it went to shit, its no longer socialism

Come again?

Thor wrote:Definition of bullshit

4 years ago the left were hailng Venezuela as the crown Jewels of socialism

2 years later when it went to shit, its no longer socialism

Come again?

Shit happens. Who cares why?

Four years ago we had the finest president the US has ever seen. Two years later we have a New York criminal family running the country. Shit happens.

Original Quill wrote:

Thor wrote:Definition of bullshit

4 years ago the left were hailng Venezuela as the crown Jewels of socialism

2 years later when it went to shit, its no longer socialism

Come again?

Shit happens.  Who cares why?

Four years ago we had the finest president the US has ever seen.  Two years later we have a New York criminal family running the country.  Shit happens.

Politics happens

That people can see that socialism is a disaster and countless times in history

How manty times do humans have to suffer this narcissistic despotism until it sinks in for you?

Thor wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
I am  talking the pure ideological socialism rather that the european democratic socialism that results in high taxes

Pure?

You just backed Wolfs poor defensive argument on socialism

Socialism is only ever good in small doses when you understand the biology of humans

What is pure socialism?

That is what wolf was claiming how its not pure socialism and yet you feed into his claim

wow

oh for christs sake, you fully understand what is meant when we are discussing socialism in this context. You have even argued against socialism in this very thread.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:


Pure?

You just backed Wolfs poor defensive argument on socialism

Socialism is only ever good in small doses when you understand the biology of humans

What is pure socialism?

That is what wolf was claiming how its not pure socialism and yet you feed into his claim

wow

oh for christs sake, you fully understand what is meant when we are discussing socialism in this context. You have even argued against socialism in this very thread.

You claim pure socialism

What the fuck is that?

Socialism, is socialism, unless you think its something else?

Original Quill wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
that's always what the apologists say when socialism fails. Not proper socialism, we will get it right next time. no walls are built to keep people out under socialism, it is always to keep them in

Ho-hum.  Got anything relevant to say?  I mean, "dat's wat yo mommo says..." is not getting to the point.

How about a proper response?

the left lauded Chavez when he came to power and corbyn wanted to emulate him. It's only when they start shooting people and staving the population to death that the left seem to suddenly realise what and abhorrent system socialism really is, but hey, next time it will be right.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:A corporation cant have state control of anything. 

I refused to waste my time reading anything after that ignorant comment.

Running away?  Where in your up-bringing did you learn that stratagem?  How has it worked for you?

Ignoring is not running away.

I gave you the response you deserved.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:
They have state control of the means ot production and have central planning.

Lots of folks have that.  Hell, any good corporation has that.  You are only pointing out that capitalism is a firm cousin of socialism...gone bad.

Maddog wrote:They are almost the text book example of socialism which is why people like Bernie and Corbyn were singing their praises a few years ago. 

Who?  I haven't been following British politics, ever since the Labour Party became the lap dog of GWB.  As far as Sanders is concerned, I opposed him.  Spent many an evening arguing with Veya on that.

Maddog wrote:They may be corrupt as hell, but that's hardly unusual when the government controls everything.

Corruption is even worse when corporations own everything.  The result is an immense wealth gap, and organized crime in the White House.  Oppps...

You can take any old dictatorship, and call it socialsim, or capitalism, or outter space, for that matter.  If you want' to talk seriously, you won't waste your time (or mine).

Socialism is an economic system, which borrows and makes use of the state in one of its iterations.  It's an answer to the question of the Industrial Revolution...what happens when the tools get too expensive?

So, socialism suggests you all band together (hence "social") and pool resources to buy the tools.  Now, you can do that by putting any institution in the hot seat: government, by guilds, by workers' councils, or indeed, by selling shares of a corporation and buying tools (or factories) that way.  Yes, even capitalism is socialism.

When the system borrows government to assume the hot seat, it's called socialist government.  Or, when people band together privately to form corporations, it could be called private socialism (we choose to call it 'capitalism').  So socialism is not the form of government, but the pressing need to organize to meet a new manner of production.

There is nothing about socialism that isn't the same with any other system of economic organization.  Is ownership centralized?  Yes.  Is planning centralized?  Yes.  Is power centralized?  Inevitably.  If you think there isn't corruption in corporations, think again.  One of them is sitting in the White House right now...and it's Venezuela all over again.  We in the US are just bigger, and it's going to take our corrupt dictator a little longer to break the furniture.

capitalism certainly has many faults, but it never has had to build walls to keep people in. Only a very tiny minority have fled capitalism to seek totalitarian socialist country's. the world is much better off because of capitalism, rather than socialism. Less people are starving because of capitalism than even a few decades ago.
IF you took the entire wealth of the world and divided it up equally between everyone, we would still all be poor, and in a decade those who had it before, would have much of it back again. Capitalism creates opportunity and jobs, Socialism creates graves.

Original Quill wrote:

Thor wrote:Definition of bullshit

4 years ago the left were hailng Venezuela as the crown Jewels of socialism

2 years later when it went to shit, its no longer socialism

Come again?

Shit happens.  Who cares why?

Four years ago we had the finest president the US has ever seen.  Two years later we have a New York criminal family running the country.  Shit happens.

No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Thor wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
oh for christs sake, you fully understand what is meant when we are discussing socialism in this context. You have even argued against socialism in this very thread.

You claim pure socialism

What the fuck is that?

Socialism, is socialism, unless you think its something else?

the venzeulan model. the soviet model, the north korean model, the cambodean model, just so I dont leave out africa, the zimbabwean model.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:

You claim pure socialism

What the fuck is that?

Socialism, is socialism, unless you think its something else?

the venzeulan model. the soviet model, the north korean model, the cambodean model, just so I dont leave out africa, the zimbabwean model.

There are all different forms of socialism and Maxism

So what is pure socialism?

As you are making the same poor argument as wolf

Its the same view, that there never has been pure socialism, which you fail to see you are playing into

Either its socialism or its not

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Thor wrote:

You claim pure socialism

What the fuck is that?

Socialism, is socialism, unless you think its something else?

the venzeulan model. the soviet model, the north korean model, the cambodean model, just so I dont leave out africa, the zimbabwean model.

There is no Korean model, Cambodean model, or Vietnamese or otherwise.

Have you ever studied this stuff? Marxism has never existed. Lenin and the Soviets created Bolshevism out of Marx. The Chinese created an agrarian form of Bolshevism, out of which all the various Asian forms arose. Various bastardizations have arisen in South and Central America, none of which have been successful except Cuba (with Russian support).

These governments have never been successful because no one ever turns to socialism until they are in trouble. And then, they fail and no one is surprised.

The United Kingdom (as Marx predicted) is the closest candidate as an example of workable socialism. Fabian socialism got its start in the 19th Century, and proceeded until the Tories pushed back. So, even it got only so far.

Original Quill wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
the venzeulan model. the soviet model, the north korean model, the cambodean model, just so I dont leave out africa, the zimbabwean model.

There is no Korean model, Cambodean model, or Vietnamese or otherwise.

Have you ever studied this stuff?  Marxism has never existed.  Lenin and the Soviets created Bolshevism out of Marx.  The Chinese created an agrarian form of Bolshevism, out of which all the various Asian forms arose.  Various bastardizations have arisen in South and Central America, none of which have been successful except Cuba (with Russian support).


These governments have never been successful because no one ever turns to socialism until they are in trouble.  And then, they fail and no one is surprised.

The United Kingdom (as Marx predicted) is the closest candidate as an example of workable socialism.  Fabian socialism got its start in the 19th Century, and proceeded until the Tories pushed back.  So, even it got only so far.

I have studied bullshit, which i get a daily lesson by you, with a prime example above

So explain to me, before the country went to shit (which was always going to happen under socialism). How socialists were hailing the country as a great example of a success of socialism?

Quill sounds like Owen Jones




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVNeu7IurZQ&t=89s

Original Quill wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
the venzeulan model. the soviet model, the north korean model, the cambodean model, just so I dont leave out africa, the zimbabwean model.

There is no Korean model, Cambodean model, or Vietnamese or otherwise.

Have you ever studied this stuff?  Marxism has never existed.  Lenin and the Soviets created Bolshevism out of Marx.  The Chinese created an agrarian form of Bolshevism, out of which all the various Asian forms arose.  Various bastardizations have arisen in South and Central America, none of which have been successful except Cuba (with Russian support).

These governments have never been successful because no one ever turns to socialism until they are in trouble.  And then, they fail and no one is surprised.

The United Kingdom (as Marx predicted) is the closest candidate as an example of workable socialism.  Fabian socialism got its start in the 19th Century, and proceeded until the Tories pushed back.  So, even it got only so far.

and it always ends up the same, the people starving and those who try to get out being shot. the rest of your argument is semantics.
One of the first things the venezuelan socialists did when they came to power was take the peoples guns away.

Thor wrote:Quill sounds like Owen Jones




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVNeu7IurZQ&t=89s

venezuela is collapsing because we arm saudi arabia, the go to defence for the left on so many issues

Didge wrote:So explain to me, before the country went to shit (which was always going to happen under socialism). How socialists were hailing the country as a great example of a success of socialism?

I'm not a specialist on Venezuela, as you apparently claim to be. But my guess would be, they weren't really a socialist nation, but a dictatorship disguising as one.

There is no such thing as a socialist nation--that should probably have been your first clue. There are nations that have socialist functions within. For example, the US military is a wholly government-owned subdivision, as is their Social Security Administration...or in the UK, the NHS.

But a completely socialist government? That was the dream of the Comintern (1919-1943), that never came into being.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Thor wrote:Definition of bullshit

4 years ago the left were hailng Venezuela as the crown Jewels of socialism

2 years later when it went to shit, its no longer socialism

Come again?

Shit happens.  Who cares why?

Four years ago we had the finest president the US has ever seen.  Two years later we have a New York criminal family running the country.  Shit happens.

No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Out of curiousity, what do you mean about Obama?

Deanx wrote:One of the first things the venezuelan socialists did when they came to power was take the peoples guns away

Yes, they have tried to shut down our Parkland Annual Kidde-Shoot, too.  But so far we have resisted.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Shit happens.  Who cares why?

Four years ago we had the finest president the US has ever seen.  Two years later we have a New York criminal family running the country.  Shit happens.

No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Reagan was an actor, who died in disgrace under the Iran-Contra scandal. His lieutenant, Dick Cheney, ran his son just like Putin is presently running Trump.

Original Quill wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Reagan was an actor, who died in disgrace under the Iran-Contra scandal.  His lieutenant, Dick Cheney, ran his son just like Putin is presently running Trump.

Reagan and thatcher were the primary reason that the berlin wall came down and communism in eastern europe collapsed. He achieved something unlike either clinton or obama

eddie wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Out of curiousity, what do you mean about Obama?

surely you understand the words shill and flimflam man, both are americanisms aren;t they

The Devil, You Know wrote:

eddie wrote:

Out of curiousity, what do you mean about Obama?

surely you understand the words shill and flimflam man, both are americanisms aren;t they

Eds is not an American, nor is she a man.

Dr. Obama is probably the most intelligent and greatest president we've ever had. RW'ers don't like him because he is black, and they are racists. They are majorly pissed that he out-gunned a couple of their old, white men.

My only criticism is that he was too soft on Republicans. If I'd been in there, they would all be in Guantanamo by now.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

eddie wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
No, you had obama, a shill and flimflam man, the finest president you ever had was Reagan.

Out of curiousity, what do you mean about Obama?

surely you understand the words shill and flimflam man, both are americanisms aren;t they

Why can’t you just answer the question? never mind.

In the south, in late 19th- and early 20-century, people used to run a lot of scams.  Snake-oil salesmen.  Guess which shell the pea is under.  Bible sales.

A shill is a partner to the scam artist, who pretends to be an enthusiastic crowd member, but is actually goading people on.  Flim-flam is the deception itself, or the game by which the artist takes the money.

You often hear Trump called a flim-flam artist, because he promises a lot, but delivers nothing.  If you ever saw Paper Moon, with Ryan and Tatum O'neal, that was a film about flim-flamming.