Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

by Guest Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:28 pm

London's latest murder victim had his 'throat slit with a huge knife' outside a 24 hour off licence, according to a shocked local business boss.

The victim, believed to be aged in his 30s, was pronounced dead at the scene in Lordship Lane in well-heeled East Dulwich shortly after 3am on Sunday.

No arrests have been made and enquiries into what happened are ongoing, the Metropolitan Police said.

This morning his body still appeared to be inside the police cordon as a forensic tent could be seen outside an off licence on the main road.

A local business owner said staff in the store - which is still behind police cordon - tried to stop the attack, but it was too late.

The man, who owns another shop that is just a few doors up from where the attack happened, said: 'The guys from the off licence saw it.

'We spoke to them briefly this morning because when we saw the police we were worried something had happened to them

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687663/Man-30s-stabbed-death-south-east-London.html

And I will say it again, stop and search is not preventing this from happenning

by Tommy Monk Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:57 pm

More stop and search would not only deter many from carrying knives as well as drugs etc... but will also catch many of the thugs who are carrying knives and drugs... and this needs to be backed up by tough sentences for those who are caught...!

by Guest Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:More stop and search would not only deter many from carrying knives as well as drugs etc... but will also catch many of the thugs who are carrying knives and drugs... and this needs to be backed up by tough sentences for those who are caught...!

Agaim Tommy you fail to understand when people are determined to kill, they will kill

We have to tackle the philosophy around the crime that is driving this

No one single stop and search prevented a single terrorist attack

Not one

Most stabbings are drug related

We have to tackle the war on drugs as it simple has never worked and never will. When we criminalise them

Make them legal, deny criminals the source they need to eran money. Make the drugs safer, by doing so and you will vastly reduce these kinds of crimes

by eddie Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:16 pm

Unless it was just a random attack, it was probably gang or drug related.

by Tommy Monk Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:32 pm

When gang people and/or anyone else is free to walk around armed with knives, without any fear of being stopped and searched... then they WILL be walking around armed with such weapons... and the likelihood of such a weapon being used, in what may well otherwise have been just a bit of a punch up, is also therefore much higher!

by Guest Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:When gang people and/or anyone else is free to walk around armed with knives, without any fear of being stopped and searched... then they WILL be walking around armed with such weapons... and the likelihood of such a weapon being used, in what may well otherwise have been just a bit of a punch up, is also therefore much higher!

Most studies show stop and search to be ineffective at best. Policymakers should look for alternatives

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/police-stop-and-search-powers-statistics-uk

by Guest Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:08 pm

Stop and search has no real impact on reducing knife crime, research suggests

Exclusive: 'Attempts to punish and prosecute our way out of knife crime are doomed to failure,' researchers say

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/stabbings-knife-crime-murder-london-stop-search-not-reduce-significantly-police-a8649286.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/05/police-stop-and-search-knife-crime

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:15 am

If you wanted to walk about on the streets carrying a knife... but you knew that you were highly likely to be stopped and searched... and also knew that if you were found to be carrying a knife that you would be getting a mandatory minimum 3 months in prison for it... and then 6 months if caught again... and 12 months if caught again... and so on...

Don't you think that this would make it less likely for thugs to be carrying knives!?

And subsequently... mean it was less likely for others to carry knives too, firstly due to the above increased likelihood of being stopped and searched and caught and getting mandatory jail... but secondly because their perceived threat to themselves from other knife carrying thugs would be diminished, so also lessening the belief that they themselves needed to carry a knife for their own protection...!?

So increased stop and search and mandatory jail would rightly catch and punish those responsible for carrying knives and being a threat/danger to everyone else... as well as being a deterrent to many who might think of carrying a knife... meaning less people on streets armed with knives all round, so overall threat level to all is reduced... so also therefore meaning less people able to claim that they need to carry a knife "for fear of their own safety" etc...

by nicko Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:53 am

I am 100% for that Tommy, but the snowflakes will scream ,"That's against their Human rights". In this case , fuck their Human rights , What else do you suggest?

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:54 pm

That's it nicko... cos what else do we do...!?

Ask them nicely not to carry knives!?

by Ben Reilly Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Why do the two of you keep screaming for stop and search when it doesn't work?

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:11 pm

It does work...

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:18 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It does work...

Bullshite

by Ben Reilly Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It does work...

Didge showed evidence that it does not. You haven't shown any evidence to prove your point.

by Maddog Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:42 pm

Any place where citizens can be stopped without probable cause or reasonable suspicion that can be articulated is a police state.

I dont care if a police state is safer or not.

I prefer the tempestuous seas of liberty over the calm seas of despotism.

by Maddog Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm

BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

by nicko Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:55 pm

How can you say it doesn't work . for fuck sake if you stop and search someone and he/she's got a knife, you take it off e'm and prosecute. That works doesn't it ?
Or is that too bloody simple for you all ?

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:04 pm

nicko wrote:How can you say it doesn't work . for fuck sake if you stop and search someone and he/she's got a knife, you take it off e'm and prosecute. That works doesn't it ?
Or is that too bloody simple for you all ?

And how in anyway has that prevented a murder?

In many cases the knife crimes has created a view for people to protect themselves with knives, with a view to defending themselves

So stop and search is nothing more than a lottery and is ineffetive in preventing knife crime

The present system on stop and search is nothing more than a lottery

This is even more evident in the number of people murder with knives last year

As Maddog says, stop and search should be based probable cause, in other words sound intelligence

What is need is to break the back of the gangs themselves which is driving knife crime in the country

All studies show how ineffective the policy is

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:17 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:20 pm

nicko wrote:How can you say it doesn't work . for fuck sake if you stop and search someone and he/she's got a knife, you take it off e'm and prosecute. That works doesn't it ?
Or is that too bloody simple for you all ?

Another advancement in police state tactics. What law are you operating under to search, confiscate and prosecutes? Or do you care (Brits, judging from this site, seem to accept that the police have plenipotentiary power)?

The problem is, stop & frisk inevitably is used only to advance racism. Who gets stopped? Well doggone...they all seem to be browned-skinned.

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:33 pm

Maddog wrote:BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

It is also legal here to carry a knife for lawful purposes...

In my work I carry an assortment of tools that could be lethal if used as weapons... and I carry them legally as it is part of my work...

But if an unemployed dodgy looking person was lurking around carrying a zombie knife... then it is clear that they were not carrying for lawful purposes so should face prosecution!

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:51 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

It is also legal here to carry a knife for lawful purposes...

In my work I carry an assortment of tools that could be lethal if used as weapons... and I carry them legally as it is part of my work...

How do you determine the purpose? Or do you jail the suspect and sort it all out later?

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

But if an unemployed dodgy looking person was lurking around carrying a zombie knife... then it is clear that they were not carrying for lawful purposes so should face prosecution!

So you have laws that allow you to jail someone if they are "dodgy looking" and "unemployed"?

Ben, fer Krist sake, get out of there!!! You are unemployed, and god knows you are dodgy looking. Rolling Eyes

by Raggamuffin Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:55 pm

Stop and search works if knives are confiscated, right?

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Stop and search works if knives are confiscated, right?

Somehow I think that tommy might object if his sharper tools were confiscated as 'knives'.

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm

Zombie knives are illegal for a start...

by Original Quill Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Zombie knives are illegal for a start...

Perhaps all sharp tools are illegal in Britain. If they are illegal, fine. If not, then we have police tactics that lean toward demagoguery and racism.

by nicko Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:23 pm

Nothing to do with the thread, but can someone , Ben, perhaps, tell me why i'v got bloody Pop Ups all over this Forum and nowhere else ? Tried to contact a mod as told , can't get through for whole pages now of bloody adverts !

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

But if an unemployed dodgy looking person was lurking around carrying a zombie knife... then it is clear that they were not carrying for lawful purposes so should face prosecution!

So you have laws that allow you to jail someone if they are "dodgy looking" and "unemployed"?

Ben, fer Krist sake, get out of there!!! You are unemployed, and god knows you are dodgy looking.

Well if you were carrying around a knife that was used in a certain proffession... but were unemployed... then the claim that the knife was being carried for use in work would be completely baseless.

Try to use your common sense quill...!

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:55 pm

Thor wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

We need to do what Scotland did to reduce knife crime, as again stop and search is not reducing knife crime

Some people need to learn this simple point

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:23 pm

We are not scotland... and the people mostly responsible for the knife crime are not even indigenous to the UK...

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

We are not scotland... and the people mostly responsible for the knife crime are not even indigenous to the UK...

Scotland is part of the Uk and many of those involved in these crimes are British

The methods used have worked, so what has being indigeneous got to do with not using the methods they used?

Sorry, but as points go by you Tommy, its at the top of the list for being absurd

Why are you not willing to try a proven method that has seen a huge reduction in knife crime?

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:47 pm

Thor wrote:
Thor wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

We need to do what Scotland did to reduce knife crime, as again stop and search is not reducing knife crime

Some people need to learn this simple point

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

But we're not doing enough stop and search... and we are definitely not imposing prison sentences for the vast majority of offenders...

It takes multiple offences for majority of criminals to actually get prison sentences... I posted up some facts and figures on this a while ago on another thread... something like the vast majority of prisoners had a string of offences before they were ever given a prison sentence...

Because... you see... it has been a long term thing of denial over crime rates and soft on punishments...

My proposal of increased stop and search along with mandatory minimum sentencing on knife offenders will work to reduce the numbers of those carrying knives and other illegal stuff... plus reduce overall knife and other crime...

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:56 pm

So Tommy just avoids my questions again

by JulesV Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:58 pm

The govt is too bankrupt to put enough police on the streets. Funds have dried up.

Plan B >
When these knife wielding fools have all finally murdered each other, maybe … just maybe …. the streets will be safer for ordinary people going about their lawful business.

There's always a 'Plan B'. Wink

by Raggamuffin Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:01 pm

I read that the man was slashed because he wouldn't give someone a cigarette. To imply that he deserved it and was a "fool" is very crass.

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:19 pm

Jules wrote:The govt is too bankrupt to put enough police on the streets. Funds have dried up.

Plan B >
When these knife wielding fools have all finally murdered each other, maybe … just maybe …. the streets will be safer for ordinary people going about their lawful business.

There's always a 'Plan B'.

Police to get largest funding increase since 2010. There will be up to £970 million additional funding to enablepolice forces to recruit more officers. ... The provisionalpolice funding settlement of up to £14 billion for 2019 to 2020 is up to £970 million more than the previous year.

13 Dec 2018

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:25 pm

Thor wrote:So Tommy just avoids my questions again

What questions...!?

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Thor wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

We are not scotland... and the people mostly responsible for the knife crime are not even indigenous to the UK...

Scotland is part of the Uk and many of those involved in these crimes are British

The methods used have worked, so what has being indigeneous got to do with not using the methods they used?

Sorry, but as points go by you Tommy, its at the top of the list for being absurd

Why are you not willing to try a proven method that has seen a huge reduction in knife crime?

by Maddog Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

It is also legal here to carry a knife for lawful purposes...

In my work I carry an assortment of tools that could be lethal if used as weapons... and I carry them legally as it is part of my work...

But if an unemployed dodgy looking person was lurking around carrying a zombie knife... then it is clear that they were not carrying for lawful purposes so should face prosecution!

I don't have to tell anyone why I carry a knife, outside of "because I want to and it's none of your fucking business why".

Of course I can walk down the street with an AR-15 and do the same thing. tongue

by Ben Reilly Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:BTW, I carry a knife everywhere and its plainly visible by the clip on my pocket. And even with it visible, no one has a right to stop me and see it.

It is also legal here to carry a knife for lawful purposes...

In my work I carry an assortment of tools that could be lethal if used as weapons... and I carry them legally as it is part of my work...

But if an unemployed dodgy looking person was lurking around carrying a zombie knife... then it is clear that they were not carrying for lawful purposes so should face prosecution!

I don't have to tell anyone why I carry a knife, outside of "because I want to and it's none of your fucking business why".

Of course I can walk down the street with an AR-15 and do the same thing.

Thanks for bringing a little libertarianism to this discussion. Police, the strong arm of the government, shouldn't be granted the ability to randomly grab someone and check them for illegal activity. It flies in the face of due process; police should have to find a person legitimately suspicious before searching them.

by Maddog Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:52 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I don't have to tell anyone why I carry a knife, outside of "because I want to and it's none of your fucking business why".

Of course I can walk down the street with an AR-15 and do the same thing.

Thanks for bringing a little libertarianism to this discussion. Police, the strong arm of the government, shouldn't be granted the ability to randomly grab someone and check them for illegal activity. It flies in the face of due process; police should have to find a person legitimately suspicious before searching them.

I am consistently, annoyingly, pro liberty.

Leave me alone. tongue

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:28 pm

Thor wrote:
Thor wrote:

Scotland is part of the Uk and many of those involved in these crimes are British

The methods used have worked, so what has being indigeneous got to do with not using the methods they used?

Sorry, but as points go by you Tommy, its at the top of the list for being absurd

Why are you not willing to try a proven method that has seen a huge reduction in knife crime?

Can you explain the methods that you are talking about please...?

In your own words... simply and briefly...?

by Guest Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thor wrote:

Can you explain the methods that you are talking about please...?

In your own words... simply and briefly...?

No, stop being lazy and read the links I gave you. As they will expand in full about them

For goodnes sake

Then come back and answer my questions

by Tommy Monk Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:46 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I don't have to tell anyone why I carry a knife, outside of "because I want to and it's none of your fucking business why".

Of course I can walk down the street with an AR-15 and do the same thing.

Thanks for bringing a little libertarianism to this discussion. Police, the strong arm of the government, shouldn't be granted the ability to randomly grab someone and check them for illegal activity. It flies in the face of due process; police should have to find a person legitimately suspicious before searching them.

Well... here in UK... it is illegal to walk about carrying offensive weapons without just cause...

And automatic and semi automatic firearms are totally banned!

Plus... stop and search is a police power that should be heavily used in areas where there are high levels of certain types of crimes... ie violent street crime etc... and only as a reaction to these high levels of crime... and also targeting those matching the description of the perpetrators of such types of crimes...

by Maddog Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

Thanks for bringing a little libertarianism to this discussion. Police, the strong arm of the government, shouldn't be granted the ability to randomly grab someone and check them for illegal activity. It flies in the face of due process; police should have to find a person legitimately suspicious before searching them.

Well... here in UK... it is illegal to walk about carrying offensive weapons without just cause...

And automatic and semi automatic firearms are totally banned!

Plus... stop and search is a police power that should be heavily used in areas where there are high levels of certain types of crimes... ie violent street crime etc... and only as a reaction to these high levels of crime... and also targeting those matching the description of the perpetrators of such types of crimes...

What are unoffensive weapons?

by JulesV Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:40 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Jules wrote:The govt is too bankrupt to put enough police on the streets. Funds have dried up.

Plan B >
When these knife wielding fools have all finally murdered each other, maybe … just maybe …. the streets will be safer for ordinary people going about their lawful business.

There's always a 'Plan B'.

Police to get largest funding increase since 2010. There will be up to £970 million additional funding to enablepolice forces to recruit more officers. ... The provisionalpolice funding settlement of up to £14 billion for 2019 to 2020 is up to £970 million more than the previous year.

13 Dec 2018

That's not what the mayor said. elephant

by JulesV Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:45 am

Raggamuffin wrote:I read that the man was slashed because he wouldn't give someone a cigarette.

To imply that he deserved it and was a "fool" is very crass.

I clearly said "knife wielding fools".
IE those who are part of this horrendous knife culture, wasn't referring to innocent folk.

by 'Wolfie Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:49 am

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Well... here in UK... it is illegal to walk about carrying offensive weapons without just cause...

And automatic and semi automatic firearms are totally banned!

Plus... stop and search is a police power that should be heavily used in areas where there are high levels of certain types of crimes... ie violent street crime etc... and only as a reaction to these high levels of crime... and also targeting those matching the description of the perpetrators of such types of crimes...

What are unoffensive weapons?

Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London 3177564460

It's all in the context :

A knife, axe or screwdriver being used for "unoffensive" purposes at home or in the workplace could still be considered a potential weapon..

It would become an "offensive" weapon once someone is waving it around and threatening somebody with it.

Likewise, an empty gun or a decorative sword hanging up on the wall might also be decribed as an "unoffensive" weapon.. (Except for a small minority of easily offended persons..).

by Victorismyhero Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:44 am

an offensive weapon, has nothing to do with being "offended" in the "that weapon offends me" sense....
It is to do with whether of not it is being used as a weapon of offence, in the offensive/defensive sense. So technically........you can be done for an offensive weapon unless you are attacking someone with it, however the (not unreasonable) presumption is that persons without good reason do not carry a weapon unless they intend to use it for attack.....

this also leads to the interesting situation that almost anything can be considered an offensive weapon , and a charge of assault with an offensive weapon can be raised when an assault is carried out with things not normally considered weapons, for instance ladies...beat your hubby with your rampant rabbit and you are guilty of assault with an offensive weapon......smash someone in da mush with your car keys and likewise.........

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