Who do you believe

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/17/alex-salmond-george-osborne-scottish-independence

Salmond is asking voters to play a high stakes game. All three main parties have said no can Salmond persuade Scots to go on the chance the 3 parties don't really mean it. Yesterday Barosso said Scotland rejoining the EU wasn't at all a shoe in indeed it could be really doubtful because of Spanish concerns about territories seeking to pull away. Is that also just posturing bullying even?

I don't think so the SNP bid is looking pretty uncertain.

I think Salmond's wasting his time - the Scots are too canny to leave the UK.

All new EU members are bound by EU regulations to take the EURO as their currency.


If Scotland votes for breaking away from the UK in the independence referendum, will they also get another referendum on whether to join the EU or not??


And if so, why do the Scots get the chance to vote on their right to self determination and EU membership in two referendums, while the UK are denied a EU referendum at all??

Tess. wrote:I think Salmond's wasting his time - the Scots are too canny to leave the UK.

I find the Right Wing arguments against Scottish Independence fascinating. The claim the Scots are better off as part of Britain and are fighting hard to make them vote to remain in the UK- but at the same time ignore the fact those in Scotland for Independence want greater autonomy- the same argument the Right gives for wanting out of the EU! Surely if the Right prefers greater autonomy and less centralized unions they should support the SNP?

For me, and others on the Left, there is far greater consistency- states are better united together, formally, therefore Scotland should remain part of the UK, and the UK should remain part of the EU- although a reformed EU   

Eilzel wrote:

Tess. wrote:I think Salmond's wasting his time - the Scots are too canny to leave the UK.

I find the Right Wing arguments against Scottish Independence fascinating. The claim the Scots are better off as part of Britain and are fighting hard to make them vote to remain in the UK- but at the same time ignore the fact those in Scotland for Independence want greater autonomy- the same argument the Right gives for wanting out of the EU! Surely if the Right prefers greater autonomy and less centralized unions they should support the SNP?

For me, and others on the Left, there is far greater consistency- states are better united together, formally, therefore Scotland should remain part of the UK, and the UK should remain part of the EU- although a reformed EU   

Again you are confusing right with UKIP. David Cameron and the central Tory party have no wish to leave Europe - they are simply trying to balance that with the fact that large number of the electorate do want to leave.

UKIP are not strictly speaking right wing - the wish to control immigration includes a protection of wages as a flooded labour market results in lower wages, and they are the only party wanting to take minimum wage out of taxation.

The real difference though is in the size and extent of government - UKIP want people to be able to decide for themselves - they want a much smaller (and therefore cheaper) extent of government with as many decisions as possible made by the electorate. They want to go back to people telling the government what to do rather than the government telling people what to do.

sphinx wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I find the Right Wing arguments against Scottish Independence fascinating. The claim the Scots are better off as part of Britain and are fighting hard to make them vote to remain in the UK- but at the same time ignore the fact those in Scotland for Independence want greater autonomy- the same argument the Right gives for wanting out of the EU! Surely if the Right prefers greater autonomy and less centralized unions they should support the SNP?

For me, and others on the Left, there is far greater consistency- states are better united together, formally, therefore Scotland should remain part of the UK, and the UK should remain part of the EU- although a reformed EU   

Again you are confusing right with UKIP.  David Cameron and the central Tory party have no wish to leave Europe - they are simply trying to balance that with the fact that large number of the electorate do want to leave.

UKIP are not strictly speaking right wing - the wish to control immigration includes a protection of wages as a flooded labour market results in lower wages, and they are the only party wanting to take minimum wage out of taxation.  

The real difference though is in the size and extent of government - UKIP want people to be able to decide for themselves - they want a much smaller (and therefore cheaper) extent of government with as many decisions as possible made by the electorate.  They want to go back to people telling the government what to do rather than the government telling people what to do.

I wasn't really referring to any political party; more the views of Right Wingers be they people I talk to day to day; posters on the forums, or the RW media.

The UK was united before labour started the rot setting up devolution Scottish parliament, Welsh assembly.
The left were all in favour of these divisive extra expensive layers of bureaucracy, but at the same time render them useless as they are subject to rule of EU dictatorship.
I hope the Scots do vote for independence from UK and the EU, then I hope the English, Welsh and NI also vote for independence from the EU, and then reform a new UK with the Scots, ALL being independent from the EU.
I believe most of the Scottish push for independence from UK is because of recent UK govt (both labour & conservatives) pro EU position.

I thought the NO campaign was being run by a labour politician Alistair Darling will be interested to know he is right wing. Indeed you will find many in the NO campaign are not right wing.

This is not a party political issue unless you are SNP of course. I think there is no chance of a yes vote none whatsoever.

Phoenix wrote:I thought the NO campaign was being run by a labour politician Alistair Darling will be interested to know he is right wing. Indeed you will find many in the NO campaign are not right wing.

This is not a party political issue unless you are SNP of course. I think there is no chance of a yes vote none whatsoever.

I think you summed that up very well in that it is not a party political issue - UK wise that is.

You're probably right about the outcome of the referendum but the No campaign appear to be doing their best to actually change that in the way they are telling the Scottish electorate that they will not get what they want.

Not a good idea.

Irn Bru wrote:

Phoenix wrote:I thought the NO campaign was being run by a labour politician Alistair Darling will be interested to know he is right wing. Indeed you will find many in the NO campaign are not right wing.

This is not a party political issue unless you are SNP of course. I think there is no chance of a yes vote none whatsoever.

I think you summed that up very well in that it is not a party political issue - UK wise that is.

You're probably right about the outcome of the referendum but the No campaign appear to be doing their best to actually change that in the way they are telling the Scottish electorate that they will not get what they want.

Not a good idea.

True they are being put on the back foot issuing negatives. Common sense will prevail though and Salmond clearly hasn't worked it through I think Alistair Darling is a great politician and was an excellent Chancellor he isn't a good orator and front man though. The no campaign needs someone with more pizazz.

The pro EU labour and tory are doing their best to get Scotland to vote yes, so they then would have to sign straight up to EU and EURO, and lessening the chances of a whole of UK independence from EU.

Tommy Monk wrote:The pro EU labour and tory are doing their best to get Scotland to vote yes, so they then would have to sign straight up to EU and EURO, and lessening the chances of a whole of UK independence from EU.

An interesting point but I believe totally untrue.

If any existing member votes no to Scotlands entry they can't join. Spain has real issues with separatist. Secondly we could vote no. Where would they be then.

These are sadly negative rather than positive Irn Bru is right about that. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face under the circumstances if they vote yes

Phoenix wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:The pro EU labour and tory are doing their best to get Scotland to vote yes, so they then would have to sign straight up to EU and EURO, and lessening the chances of a whole of UK independence from EU.

An interesting point but I believe totally untrue.

If any existing member votes no to Scotlands entry they can't join. Spain has real issues with separatist. Secondly we could vote no. Where would they be then.

These are sadly negative rather than positive Irn Bru is right about that. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face under the circumstances if they vote yes

Spain is fucking awful tbf.

They imposed massive amounts in inheritance tax, on the Brits that bought houses out there, but didn't impose the same tax on their own citizens.

It's all corrupt over there, and it's impossible to claim the illegal inheritance tax back, even when you have gone through specialist lawyer.

Oh come on!
No country would try to prevent Scotland joining the EU as a separate nation from UK.
But the real question is, do the Scots really want to join up anyway?
And will they be asked?
They are already controlled by EU through UK membership, and part of the reason some want out is to also get out of this EU control.

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh come on!
No country would try to prevent Scotland joining the EU as a separate nation from UK.
But the real question is, do the Scots really want to join up anyway?
And will they be asked?
They are already controlled by EU through UK membership, and part of the reason some want out is to also get out of this EU control.

...but if the latter were true, then what would be so wrong with that Tam?, if you want out if the EU, you must keep asking your PM for a referendum on the EU...that would not be the fault of Scotland.

Phoenix wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/17/alex-salmond-george-osborne-scottish-independence

Salmond is asking voters to play a high stakes game. All three main parties have said no can Salmond persuade Scots to go on the chance the 3 parties don't really mean it. Yesterday Barosso said Scotland rejoining the EU wasn't at all a shoe in indeed it could be really doubtful because of Spanish concerns about territories seeking to pull away. Is that also just posturing bullying even?

I don't think so the SNP bid is looking pretty uncertain.

The Spanish government is a complete nightmare, they make you have to go to an office, to get control over inheritance rights etc...then they close it early, after you've been sitting there for a few hours, just to piss you off...Then you have to go back the next day.

The SNP are totally against nuclear power and weapons.

3 to 19,000 jobs are reliant on Faslane depending on which article is googled. Scotland cannot afford any reduction in job numbers never mind being able to afford to meet the criteria of the Euro.

....I must admit, that i used to post endless youtube music videos, to the Spanish lawyer, all Spanish related...She did start to try to wrap things up!  

 ::happ:: ::happ:: ::happ:: 

Catman wrote:....I must admit, that i used to post endless youtube music videos, to the Spanish lawyer, all Spanish related...She did start to try to wrap things up!  

In a Tortilla ?

gerber wrote:The SNP are totally against nuclear power and weapons.

3 to 19,000 jobs are reliant on Faslane depending on which article is googled.   Scotland cannot afford any reduction in job numbers never mind being able to afford to meet the criteria of the Euro.

Think you will find the Scots have more income per capita than we do Gerbs:

The Scottish government has shown that, if you apply the geographical share principle, Mr Salmond's figures are correct.

If we divide Scotland's total tax receipts for each year by its population, we generate a figure for the 'tax receipt per capita' - in other words, how much each person contributes to the Treasury. If we also repeat this calculation for the UK, we can see that Mr Salmond is on the money when he says, “In every single one of the last 30 years, the amount of tax revenues generated per person in Scotland was greater than for the UK as a whole.”

As he notes, in 2011/12 the tax receipt was £10,700 per person for Scotland, as opposed to an average of £9000 per person for the UK.

If, continuing to apply the geographical share principle, we look at how Scotland's total tax receipts since 1980 compare with the UK's, we can see that Scotland has contributed - as Mr Salmond notes - a surplus £222 billion in today's prices.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/will_an_independent_scotland_be_better_off-28889

Joy Division wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh come on!
No country would try to prevent Scotland joining the EU as a separate nation from UK.
But the real question is, do the Scots really want to join up anyway?
And will they be asked?
They are already controlled by EU through UK membership, and part of the reason some want out is to also get out of this EU control.

...but if the latter were true, then what would be so wrong with that Tam?, if you want out if the EU, you must keep asking your PM for a referendum on the EU...that would not be the fault of Scotland.

Which bit are you referring to as the latter?

Sassy wrote:

gerber wrote:The SNP are totally against nuclear power and weapons.

3 to 19,000 jobs are reliant on Faslane depending on which article is googled.   Scotland cannot afford any reduction in job numbers never mind being able to afford to meet the criteria of the Euro.

Think you will find the Scots have more income per capita than we do Gerbs:

The Scottish government has shown that, if you apply the geographical share principle, Mr Salmond's figures are correct.

If we divide Scotland's total tax receipts for each year by its population, we generate a figure for the 'tax receipt per capita' - in other words, how much each person contributes to the Treasury. If we also repeat this calculation for the UK, we can see that Mr Salmond is on the money when he says, “In every single one of the last 30 years, the amount of tax revenues generated per person in Scotland was greater than for the UK as a whole.”

As he notes, in 2011/12 the tax receipt was £10,700 per person for Scotland, as opposed to an average of £9000 per person for the UK.

If, continuing to apply the geographical share principle, we look at how Scotland's total tax receipts since 1980 compare with the UK's, we can see that Scotland has contributed - as Mr Salmond notes - a surplus £222 billion in today's prices.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/will_an_independent_scotland_be_better_off-28889

Sads

All can quote figures it is how they are used and by whom.

If mackerel man is right why on earth are we in England still paying the Barnett formula ?

England loose every which way.

That was before Scotland kept the ship building and Portsmouth lost it.

Sassy wrote:That was before Scotland kept the ship building and Portsmouth lost it.

And politics didn't enter the equation............................ Must get a lottery ticket, tell Camelot my numbers and insist I have the winning numbers....... LOL

if you apply the geographical share principle


That uses UK oil and gas revenues as mostly Scottish in the calculation.


And you post up a link from fullfact as if it is some sort of relevant independent authority on the full facts, when it is nothing of the sort.

Tommy Monk wrote:The pro EU labour and tory are doing their best to get Scotland to vote yes, so they then would have to sign straight up to EU and EURO, and lessening the chances of a whole of UK independence from EU.

What makes you think that Scotland would have to sign up straight to the Euro?

Phoenix wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/17/alex-salmond-george-osborne-scottish-independence

Salmond is asking voters to play a high stakes game. All three main parties have said no can Salmond persuade Scots to go on the chance the 3 parties don't really mean it. Yesterday Barosso said Scotland rejoining the EU wasn't at all a shoe in indeed it could be really doubtful because of Spanish concerns about territories seeking to pull away. Is that also just posturing bullying even?

I don't think so the SNP bid is looking pretty uncertain.

I'm just going to say this once. Alex Salmond is lying to the Scottish people.

He does not want independence for Scotland. He wants Devolution Max, which gives Scotland all the powers to set their law and fiscal policies but still wants to retain it's umbilical chord to Mother England, just in case something goes wrong.

Which is why he's trying to retain the pound.

For those of you posting on this thread I just want you to listen to this before you go to bed.

Goodnight

Once you have then you will never get it out of your head

Irn Bru wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:The pro EU labour and tory are doing their best to get Scotland to vote yes, so they then would have to sign straight up to EU and EURO, and lessening the chances of a whole of UK independence from EU.

What makes you think that Scotland would have to sign up straight to the Euro?

Because Salmond will try to sign straight up to the EU and adopting the EURO is a requirement for any new members.


Plus Scotland keeping the Pound has been ruled out.



Will the Scottish people also get a referendum on joining the EU if they vote yes to leave UK?