Italy's new govt

considering the fact that the new govt in italy is considered "populist" and that the same term is applied to many "anti establishment" political parties, I am at a slight loss to understand what the problem is

surely "populist " = appealing to the popular vote

and surely then this is what democracy actually IS the "voice of the people" i.e a govt voted for by having popular policies.

now, I would agree that this may make for "uncomfortable times" and even chaos BUT no one EVER promised that democracy would deliver stability /easy living etc..........

LINK?????

well yes veya...I know you are but........

"By Michelle Clifford, Europe correspondent

A populist government is set to be formed in Italy three months after its national election.

The anti-establishment Five Star Movement and the far-right League have struck a deal to deliver an alliance - one which will stir nervousness among many in Europe.

Neither leader of the two parties will be prime minister."


https://news.sky.com/story/nerves-as-far-right-league-party-set-for-office-in-italy-and-what-we-can-expect-11381686

I'm a bit confused about it as well. I keep thinking of the Tooting Popular Front.

have a

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0BpfwazhUA

The article says 'the far right league' is one of the partys...


Is that the party name...?


Or just more media lies & spin...?

Lord Foul wrote:considering the fact that the new govt in italy is considered "populist" and that the same term is applied to many "anti establishment" political parties, I am at a slight loss to understand what the problem is

surely "populist " = appealing to the popular vote

and surely then this is what democracy actually IS   the "voice of the people"   i.e a govt voted for by having popular policies.

now, I would agree that this may make for "uncomfortable times" and even chaos   BUT no one EVER promised that democracy would deliver stability /easy living etc..........

Well, do you really need me to to say mate?

That the Nazi's came to power through the popular vote?

Not saying this is the same or the same barbarism would then happen, but to say popular. When that popular view is based on xenophobia and a fear. Really is not something to shout home about.

What you should say is that it has been a failing of society and how immigrants have been portrayed in the media and how a connection to any form of crime. Is then used as a weapon to then demonise then all immigrants. Its also to me a failing of the left to recognise problems around some immigrants and criminal imported crimes. Like forced marriage, honour killings, FGM ect. That though should never be the means to deny the vast majority that do come here to be a part of a better life.

I am the son of immigrants and it was many immigrants that fought in two world wars for countries they never lived here. Even many more after this. My Grand parents never lived here and fought and served for the UK. What did they get out of this?

I mean if the argument is about a populist view being the right thing. I am sorry, its when things always end ugly, when its based on fear and xenophobia. 

It never ends well

Democracy has its flaws like any other system, but just because something is a populist view. Does not mean that populist view is in anyway good, does it?

So populist can mean right wing if the voters are right wing. They want a right-wing party in power, so that's what they get.

League is described as centre-right on Wiki anyway, and I think they came third re the popular vote.

It's all very complicated - there seem to be many coalitions in Italy.

So 'the league' is not a far right party at all then...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:

So 'the league' is not a far right party at all then...!?

What is being afraid of migrants about then?

Communism?

That is just your dodgy waffle...!

Tommy Monk wrote:

That is just your dodgy waffle...!

Is it?

What are you afraid of Tommy, with immigrants?

They are illegal immigrants who are trying to abuse the asylum rules, and should be deported immediately!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:


They are illegal immigrants who are trying to abuse the asylum rules, and should be deported immediately!!!

All of them?

Some of them?

So which is it?

Does that even matter?

If you were impoverished, would you not seek a better liffe?

Yes... all of those hundreds of thousands who have been illegally entering Italy in recent few years are sub Saharan Africans and are illegal immigrants who are trying to abuse the asylum rules to try to stay there...!!!


Yes it does matter!!!


Not 'impoverished'... not relevant... so stop with the bullshit!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes... all of those hundreds of thousands who have been illegally entering Italy in recent few years are sub Saharan Africans and are illegal immigrants who are trying to abuse the asylum rules to try to stay there...!!!


Yes it does matter!!!


Not 'impoverished'... not relevant... so stop with the bullshit!!!

Illegal?

Based on what laws that govern humanity?

The only bullshit that is being spouted is the crap you are claiming

Its like you think you can dictate, whether people can then attempt to better their lives or that they are some how a threat for doing so.

So what matters, is that people stand up to your pathetic xenophobia

Laws that govern humanity? Like the law of the jungle you mean, survival of the fittest.
We have developed laws whether you like it or not, people just moving around whenever they like where ever they like, won't work too well these days, probably hasn't worked well for a long time. If people want what you have but there isn't enough to go around causes trouble, we've seen that over and over. People establish a way of life and someone comes along in sufficient numbers to cause changes, its rare that the original people take that lying down. Why do people all over the world fight against invaders or colonists? Why don't they understand the 'law of humanity' and allow people in, which may change the particular world they are comfortable with forever. What would you do if you'd just had a nice new wide screen tv and someone comes along and thinks, mm, I should be able to have what he has, laws of humanity and equality, so I'll have yours.
Would you let him take it, the new tv you've worked for?

You see Tommy, the problem with your arguments, is that it never actually looks for solutions to why people do want to leave the countries they live within, in the first place. You just want to be and cast yourself as the 3 little pigs. Saying " you are not coming in, by the hair of my chinny chin chin"

When what you should be arguing for, is that the rest of the world, helps make these countries a better place and life for people to live in. Its utterly no surprise people will flock to Europe, when we have laws that ensure the well being and equality of people. You seem to think its a crime, that people would literally risks their lives coming to the west. When you actually have zero emphathic intelliegnce to understand what many of them go through daily. Its not their fault, they live under corrupt regemes and Goverments.

That is what you miss. Now of course immigration has to be controlled with some sense, but if you want to tackle any refugee problem, then you tackle this at its core. To the problems within that nation. Where again you argue to not be involved. Thus ensuring that the cycle of refugees continues. That is the failure of your argument, in its entirety.

Vintage wrote:Laws that govern humanity? Like the law of the jungle you mean, survival of the fittest.
We have developed laws whether you like it or not, people just moving around whenever they like where ever they like, won't work too well these days, probably hasn't worked well for a long time. If people want what you have but there isn't enough to go around causes trouble, we've seen that over and over. People establish a way of life and someone comes along in sufficient numbers to cause changes, its rare that the original people take that lying down. Why do people all over the world fight against invaders or colonists? Why don't they understand the 'law of humanity' and allow people in, which may change the particular world they are comfortable with forever. What would you do if you'd just had a nice new wide screen tv and someone comes along and thinks, mm, I should be able to have what he has, laws of humanity and equality, so I'll have yours.
Would you let him take it, the new tv you've worked for?

So your view, is that now anyone that wants to better their life, is basically a thief in the making?

Sorry, I lost you at the part of not being able to share?

How exactly, is there not enough to go around in Italy for example, when the death rate is higher than the birth rate?

The question to ask, is whether those coming are a threat?

Is not like Gaza and israel where those people trying to enter, are intent on murdering Jews. This is people coming from nations where they have a harsh existance. Its why the world continues to fail such societies and ensures many people will  continue to leave such countries. As in reality we do little to help them.

So your view on the survival of the fittest? How does that work, when we ensure that all children have an education and free health care. I mean if we applied the survival of the fittest, then the NHS would never exist or free education, would it Vintage?

They are not refugees you dumb fuck!!!


But basically you are saying that the whole of Africa is a shit hole and all Africans are unable to do anything by themselves and are all corrupt so unable to be trusted to run any govts in Africa or hold any positions of power...!!!???


All Africans have to move to Italy to have any chance of a decent life, cos all the other Africans in Africa are corrupt, and incapable of decent living...!!!???


You complete bellend!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:They are not refugees you dumb fuck!!!


But basically you are saying that the whole of Africa is a shit hole and all Africans are unable to do anything by themselves and are all corrupt so unable to be trusted to run any govts in Africa or hold any positions of power...!!!???


All Africans have to move to Italy to have any chance of a decent life, cos all the other Africans in Africa are corrupt, and incapable of decent living...!!!???


You complete bellend!!!

So people escaping basic poverty are not refugees to you, or if they are homosexual, women etc. Where in many of these countries they are in fact discriminated against. This really shows and proves your ignorance Tommy.

Have I said its a shit hole? No, what I have stated is that many countries are governed through corruption. These people are having to live lives based on the after effects of Colonialism. That only taught an elite within society and the worst aspect, taught them how to have a very poor elite and corruptable system. That is what we taught them and the people there are still suffering from these effects today.

So again, you do not want to resolve this problem, you think all people wanting to better their lives, are to you not worthy of doing so. Even though, you only had the ability to have an education and be better off, simple by one simple factor. The reality of geographical location, to where you were born. That is it and this makes you think, you can deny this to others, when you would be (you actually stiil are) ignorant, without the fact a few innovative people have passed on their wisdom. In order that you could learn. They did not use your attitude and say fuck you, which is what you are basically saying. They passed on their wisdom universally.

The problem is Tommy, is people like you. You cannot grasp how fundementally lucky you are to be born into a society, that has ensured you have the best chances in life and off nothing your own parents did either. I mean its pathetic and again shows you do not even want to look at the actual problem of why people even want to leave there and why they do, is based on how the Europeans left that Continent in a complete mess.

What a complete load of bullshit!!!


They all have plenty of money to pay their way illegally over to Italy...


And Africa is a vast continent of rich resources and safe places!!!


You can't argue that it is nasty white Europeans that all these Africans are 'fleeing' from... while also trying to justify their arrival to WHITE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES for seeking safety from nasty white Europeans!!!



You are a complete clown!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:


What a complete load of bullshit!!!


They all have plenty of money to pay their way illegally over to Italy...


And Africa is a vast continent of rich resources and safe places!!!


You can't argue that it is nasty white Europeans that all these Africans are 'fleeing' from... while also trying to justify their arrival to WHITE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES for seeking safety from nasty white Europeans!!!



You are a complete clown!!!

I never brought the colour of skin into this, you did and with what has to be worst misdirection going

Which really shows what your real reasoning on this is about.

You are just poorly trying to ignore my points

Try again

So people escaping basic poverty are not refugees to you, or if they are homosexual, women etc. Where in many of these countries they are in fact discriminated against. This really shows and proves your ignorance Tommy.

Have I said its a shit hole? No, what I have stated is that many countries are governed through corruption. These people are having to live lives based on the after effects of Colonialism. That only taught an elite within society and the worst aspect, taught them how to have a very poor elite and corruptable system. That is what we taught them and the people there are still suffering from these effects today.

So again, you do not want to resolve this problem, you think all people wanting to better their lives, are to you not worthy of doing so. Even though, you only had the ability to have an education and be better off, simple by one simple factor. The reality of geographical location, to where you were born. That is it and this makes you think, you can deny this to others, when you would be (you actually stiil are) ignorant, without the fact a few innovative people have passed on their wisdom. In order that you could learn. They did not use your attitude and say fuck you, which is what you are basically saying. They passed on their wisdom universally.

The problem is Tommy, is people like you. You cannot grasp how fundementally lucky you are to be born into a society, that has ensured you have the best chances in life and off nothing your own parents did either. I mean its pathetic and again shows you do not even want to look at the actual problem of why people even want to leave there and why they do, is based on how the Europeans left that Continent in a complete mess.

Bullshit!!!





Escaping poverty!!!???


By paying what would be a fortune in their home countries, to get across to Italy...???


You really are a complete clown!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Bullshit!!!





Escaping poverty!!!???


By paying what would be a fortune in their home countries, to get across to Italy...???


You really are a complete clown!!!

So ypu are playing the hate card

Tell me youy plans tommy?

Waffle...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Waffle...

The first time you have been corrct Tommy

Your replies are basically crap and bollocks

I agree, populist means majority verdict.

And by that logic Germany's evil 1940's Nazi party was a populist one, very much so.

Populism is a term that has been borrowed from American history:

Etymoline wrote:populist
/ˈpäpyəˌlizəm/
1892 (n.) "adherent of populism;" 1893 (adj.), American English, from Latin populus "people" (see people (n.)) + -ist. Originally in reference to the U.S. Populist Party organized February 1892 to promote certain issues important to farmers and workers. The term outlasted the party, and by 1920s came to mean "representing the views of the masses" in a general way.

It has been replaced by the term "base" or "grass roots base", meaning lower, or unorganized elements of the population.  It doesn't necessarily mean the people, nor even the majority of the people.  It means, in essence, the 'little people'.

It's origin is the class structure that existed from the Civil War.  In post-Civil War America, the term populism was imbued with a meaning associated with the 'loser' southerners...who were preyed upon by the mercantile northerners.  They were the "rubes" and the  "hillbillys", the mark of carpetbaggers.  They were the victims of snake-oil and bible salesmen...the stupid ones who bought swamp land in Florida, and bridges in Brooklyn.

Today, the term populist still conveys the connotation of unsophisticated and uneducated, but it is also associated with a kind of post-hillbilly suspicion--as in, we won't be fooled again.

As with any rube, once bitten, twice shy.  The contemporary populists believe all the world conspires against them--most of all politicians--and there is a "deep state" that wants everyone to believe in the deception, while 'reality' is another thing.

That is the modern-day transition that has transformed "populism" into conservatism and nationalism.  It entails belief in a (1) different state of affairs, or reality, and (2) an elite that is behind the deception.  

That is why Trump fans believe the "fake news" is feeding them bullshit--akin to the snake oil salesman's bullshit--and there are "alternate facts", and a "deep state" in which the real world really exists.    It was all born of the experience that the folks of the south were ‘tricked’ by the northern carpetbaggers and flim-flam men.

Populism has become the modern conservative politician's collective dupe.  He is inevitably divisive, as his premise presuposes an elite.  He is inevitably mistrustful, as the elite is out to deceive you and take advantage of you.  And he is inevitably suspicious of the reality as told, as it's all 'fake news'.

But alas...as always, the populist is simply grist for the next guy's mill.  Ms. Clinton unfortunately called them "deplorables".  They are not deplorable...but they are easily led, and misled, and so they often find themselves looking dirty, having been tarred and feathered.   This gullibility, and the idea of an alternate reality, allows the politician to commit criminal acts, but dismiss charges by alleging that the police are corrupt and the investigation into your crimes are simply a “witch hunt”. Trump is ring master of them.

A lot of 'projectionist' waffle there from you Quill...


The truth of the matter is that the Italian people have been so totally shafted by their elected representatives/govts over the last few years... the partys responsible have clearly shown that they are totally incapable of doing what they are supposed to be doing... WHICH IS "representing the views of the masses"... and is also to provide a secure border that prevents a tidal wave of illegal immigrants flooding the country, and to effectively/efficiently remove the illegal immigrants that do make it in to the country...!!!


Given the complete failure of recent Italian govts/elected representatives etc... why would any sane Italian person be voting for any of them again...?

Tommy Monk wrote:A lot of 'projectionist' waffle there from you Quill...

Well, I just wanted to connect up terms. I.e., why is the American term "populist", becoming so popular in other regions of the world?

It's not "projectionist" as you intend it. It has to do with the evolution of an American term in world politics. You'd have to have lived through it to understand.

There it is, tommy, in you own words...

Tommy Monk wrote:The truth of the matter is that the Italian people have been so totally shafted by their elected representatives/govts over the last few years...

There's the plot: "shafting the people."  It gives rise to the suspicion that the innocent commoner, has been victimized by the carpetbagger.

Tommy Monk wrote: ...the partys responsible have clearly shown that they are totally incapable of doing what they are supposed to be doing...

There's the divergence, creating the split between the elite ("...the parties responsible...") and the 'little' people.

Tommy Monk wrote:WHICH IS "representing the views of the masses"... and is also to provide a secure border that prevents a tidal wave of illegal immigrants flooding the country, and to effectively/efficiently remove the illegal immigrants that do make it in to the country...!!!

There's the message....Make America Great Again!..together with the nationalism: kick the immigrants out.

There, in a nutshell, you've got the whole conservative co-opting of the populist message.

Do you see how the world has picked up populism?  You've got the world going awry, with a 'deep state' taking over, and the 'alternate facts' telling you  the real story.  Don't believe the 'fake news', they tell you; they are the voices of the 'deep state' telling you what to believe.

All it really means here and RE Italy is "representing the views of the masses"... as is in the definition you posted earlier...!

Tommy Monk wrote:
All it really means here and RE Italy is "representing the views of the masses"... as is in the definition you posted earlier...!

Correct...that's the nationalism.  We saw that last century, with both the Germans and the Russian Nationalist.

What is the point of escaping one poverty to end up with another, if you are illegal and under the radar you can't get a proper job and will end up being exploited, this in turn costs the host country bringing its way of life down for various reasons - policing and keeping of illegals, homes, benefits etc., there's no money for this and no money for that, providing of course its money needed by the working poor and those finding it difficult to even find a job. Basically everyone needs to earn a living to support themselves and their immediate family, not just for the financial side of things but for self esteem, that should be everyone's right, yet we have a globalised system where the jobs go to the lowest wage possible where ever that may be, leaving a large workforce adrift in 'no job land' in the countries the company leaves behind without a backward glance, let alone jobs lost to automation and of course the wages of the top executives and the shareholders is all. We need to make all the countries viable, so who is responsible for that? We, in the developed countries can help, we can trade we can give aid, so why are these countries not developing? Yet how much can we afford, work has and is moving to poorer countries all the time. There are vast reserves of ore etc on the African Continent, potentially the countries could be very rich, yet we have tribal warfare and corrupt governments who do very little for their country, exactly where has and is all the money in aid over the last thirty years been going? These people don't want constant handouts they want to be able to earn a living as do so many people in the developed world who have had this right taken away from them by globalisation. I have no problem with someone being as rich as Croesus but only if everyone has a job and is paid a living wage for the cost of living in the place live. Rant over, hope it makes sense, (bit communist there). Some countries are thinking of introducing a wage for all, working or not, shame it isn't wages for all with jobs for all.

Vintage wrote:What is the point of escaping one poverty to end up with another...?

When they are trying to kill you, it becomes immediately obvious.

Not every refugee/ immigrant is being hunted down and under sentence of death - far from it.

Quill... all national govts have a primary duty OF national govt AND TO GOVERN IN the national interest...!


And it is up to the people to decide via democracy, what they want, and who they want in the positions of delivering it...!


The voting public are in charge... the politicians are supposed to be the public servants... not the other way round...!!!


The tail does not wag the dog!

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... all national govts have a primary duty OF national govt AND TO GOVERN IN the national interest...!

And it is up to the people to decide via democracy, what they want, and who they want in the positions of delivering it...!

The voting public are in charge... the politicians are supposed to be the public servants... not the other way round...!!!

The tail does not wag the dog!

Now bring that down to earth, tommy. What does "national interest" mean? Give me definition that both left and right will confirm.

What does "democracy" mean...again, give me a definition that both sides will confirm?

Now, within that framework, what does populist mean? If you're just going to say 'national interest' as determined by 'democracy' you haven't said anything. Use the terms 'demorcary' and 'national interest', and any other terms, to delineate populism.

I'm just trying to retrace, through history, a particular movement...beginning with its origins, going through the twists and turns, down to the present manifestations.

Vintage wrote:Not every refugee/ immigrant is being hunted down and under sentence of death - far from it.

And none of those sub saharan Africans arriving illegally in Italy are refugees either...!

Quill... if you need these things explaining to you... then it just shows how far out of touch with reality you are...!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quill... if you need these things explaining to you... then it just shows how far out of touch with reality you are...!

So you're saying that 'populism' is just another word for democracy?  Well, why didn't you say so?

Vic, tommy says that populism is simply another word for democracy.  He's saying that there's no news about the Italy election...nothing to see there.

So while you may hear us speak of populism, pay no attention. It's just a language we keep to ourselves.

No... I'm saying that 'democracy' is the word for democracy...!


Try looking up the meaning... as you obviously don't know what it is...

This is an article about the mass invasion of illegal immigrants from sub saharan Africans into Italy, written in June 2015...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/06/the-invasion-of-italy

http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/06/the-invasion-of-italy/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjf9p_7mafbAhUCLFAKHYCFAJoQFggTMAQ&usg=AOvVaw3OuAEne3Hh_V9FFUJibtZm


From then to now, another 3 years of mass illegal immigrants invasion into Italy from sub saharan Africa...


And you wonder why the Italian people have started to vote for politicians who say they are going to put a stop to the madness that the previous politicians have allowed to happen...?


A recent article...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/italians-arent-fascists-theyre-angry-about-immigration

http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/italians-arent-fascists-theyre-angry-about-immigration/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj1or-XoafbAhXCCewKHVvHAzg4ChAWCAkwAQ&usg=AOvVaw3ON6b5UH6d-YekPTwVHhXZ

The term "populist"  doesn't  necessarily mean that the policies of a political party --  or coalition of parties  --  will have a clear majority,  but rather that it will be "popular" with the largest single group of voters...

In a three-way vote, for example, if two candidates each get around 30%, taking over 60% of the vote between them, the 3rd candidate may still be able form a "minority government"  with less than 40% of the votes..

Just like the Nazi's did in Germany, where Hitler got into power with barely 35% of the primary votes, (though he did get over 50% in their next national election a few years later --  largely thanks to the wonders of "gerrymandering" a few electorates, and allied with disenfranchising entire blocs of voters -- Jews, communists, Gypsies, socialists, Catholics, trade unionists..).

"Populist" or not, the simple plain fact is that Italy's new gov't is a motley coalition of a neo-nazi gang of thugs and an "anti-establisment" anarchist club.
Nice bedfellows, indeed..            

You idiots bleat about nazis/fascists/dictatorships etc... and ignore the fact that the Italian people have voted democraticaly for what they want... but end up getting yet another EU dictated appointed PM who represents the total opposite of democracy, and who will do the total opposite of what the Italian people voted for...!!!


This is 8 years now where the Italian people have had EU dictated PMs appointed... and democracy stolen from them...!!!


You gullible fools who support this are the real dictatorial fascists!!!


And you undermine democracy for all of us by endorsing such an afront to democratic process in Italy!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

You idiots bleat about nazis/fascists/dictatorships etc... and ignore the fact that the Italian people have voted democraticaly for what they want... but end up getting yet another EU dictated appointed PM who represents the total opposite of democracy, and who will do the total opposite of what the Italian people voted for...!!!


This is 8 years now where the Italian people have had EU dictated PMs appointed... and democracy stolen from them...!!!


You gullible fools who support this are the real dictatorial fascists!!!


And you undermine democracy for all of us by endorsing such an afront to democratic process in Italy!!!

DO you know who else was elected democratically?
Democratically elected by idiots and racists is a Fuck tone worse than EU appointed.

Yes we know that 30% of the population are Dumb asses that vote in dumb shit, cause they are so easily manipulated by fear that controlling them is Literally as easy as sheep or any other low intellect farm animal.

the problem is when the other 70% become too fractured to prevent the idiocy they want to elect

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

You idiots bleat about nazis/fascists/dictatorships etc... and ignore the fact that the Italian people have voted democraticaly for what they want... but end up getting yet another EU dictated appointed PM who represents the total opposite of democracy, and who will do the total opposite of what the Italian people voted for...!!!


This is 8 years now where the Italian people have had EU dictated PMs appointed... and democracy stolen from them...!!!


You gullible fools who support this are the real dictatorial fascists!!!


And you undermine democracy for all of us by endorsing such an afront to democratic process in Italy!!!

DO you know who else was elected democratically?
Democratically elected by idiots and racists is a Fuck tone worse than EU appointed.    

Yes we know that 30% of the population are Dumb asses that vote in dumb shit, cause they are so easily manipulated by fear that controlling them is Literally as easy as sheep or any other low intellect farm animal.  

the problem is when the other 70% become too fractured to prevent the idiocy they want to elect  

Will you just listen to yourself for a minute...?


Have a little read what you just said... and have a little think about what you are actually saying here...



You like democracy when the result is what you want... but you want dictatorship when the result is not what you want...!?


30% of the public are stupid and easily manipulated to vote a certain way... which you also support when they have been suckered into voting the way that you & the MSM want...


But you then try to claim that it is only those who voted differently to what the MSM manipulating was telling them to do, are the stupid & easily manipulated 30% of public...


Truth is... the stupid and easily manipulated 30% of public are still voting the same as you... as they have again been manipulated to do so...


And it is a majority of the rest of people, much more intelligent, and not manipulated but thinking for themselves, and who are in touch with reality, who are voting for politicians who are saying they will do what the people really want... after years of the regular puppets saying what's wanted to get votes but then doing the opposite...!!!


Only a complete idiot would keep voting for the regular puppets after all the lying & cheating...!!!


And 30% of people (who are stupid) still do...!!!