The Alt-Right Is Bad — And So Is ‘Antifa’

by Guest Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:41 pm

Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment?

Fighting Nazis is a good thing, but fighting Nazis doesn’t necessarily make you or your cause good. By my lights this is simply an obvious fact. The greatest Nazi-killer of the 20th century was Josef Stalin. He also killed millions of his own people and terrorized, oppressed, enslaved, or brutalized tens of millions more. The fact that he killed Nazis during the Second World War (out of self-preservation, not principle) doesn’t dilute his evil one bit.

This should settle the issue as far as I’m concerned. Nazism was evil. Soviet Communism was evil. It’s fine to believe that Nazism was more evil than Communism. That doesn’t make Communism good. Alas, it doesn’t settle the issue. Confusion on this point poisoned politics in America and abroad for generations.

Part of the problem is psychological. There’s a natural tendency to think that when people, or movements, hate each other, it must be because they’re opposites. This assumption overlooks the fact that many — indeed, most — of the great conflicts and hatreds in human history are derived from what Sigmund Freud called the “narcissism of minor differences.”

Part of the problem is psychological. There’s a natural tendency to think that when people, or movements, hate each other, it must be because they’re opposites. This assumption overlooks the fact that many — indeed, most — of the great conflicts and hatreds in human history are derived from what Sigmund Freud called the “narcissism of minor differences.” Most tribal hatreds are between very similar groups.

The European wars of religion were between peoples who often shared the same language and culture but differed on the correct way to practice the Christian faith. The Sunni–Shia split in the Muslim world is the source of great animosity between very similar peoples. The young Communists and fascists fighting for power in the streets of 1920s Germany had far more in common with each other than they had with decent liberals or conservatives, as we understand those terms today. That’s always true of violent radicals and would-be totalitarians.

The second part of the problem wasn’t innocent confusion, but sinister propaganda. As Hitler solidified power and effectively outlawed the Communist Party of Germany, The Communist International (Comintern) abandoned its position that socialist and progressive groups that were disloyal to Moscow were “fascist” and instead encouraged Communists everywhere to build “popular fronts” against the common enemy of Nazism. These alliances of convenience with social democrats and other progressives were a great propaganda victory for Communists around the world because they bolstered the myth that Communists were just members of the Left coalition in the fight against Hitler, bigotry, fascism, etc.

This obscured the fact that whenever the Communists had a chance to seize power, they did so. And often, the first people they killed, jailed, or exiled were their former allies. That’s what happened in Eastern Europe, Cuba and other places where Communists succeeded in taking over the government. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not. If you haven’t figured it out yet, this seemingly ancient history is relevant today because of the depressingly idiotic argument about whether it’s okay to equate “antifa” — anti-fascist left-wing radicals — with the neo-Nazi and white-supremacist rabble that recently descended on Charlottesville, Va.

The president wants to claim that there were “very fine people” on both sides of the protest and that the anti-fascist radicals are equally blameworthy. He borrowed from Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity the bogus term “alt-left” to describe the antifa radicals. The term is bogus for the simple reason that, unlike the alt-right, nobody calls themselves “the alt-left.” And that’s too bad. One of the only nice things about the alt-right is that its leaders are honest about the fact that they want nothing to do with traditional American conservatism. Like the original Nazis, they seek to replace the traditional Right with their racial hogwash. T

The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to traditional American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent, and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition. But many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not. And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid.

Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment? In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it is a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450583/alt-right-antifa-both-bad-groups-ideology

by Original Quill Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:55 pm

If you don't like the anti-fascists (antifa), then we'll assume you are pro-fascist...profa, as it were.

by Guest Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:If you don't like the anti-fascists (antifa), then we'll assume you are pro-fascist...profa, as it were.

Well that shows how badly you failed to read or understand the article

I am against fascism and communism.

So to claim that being against Antifa, makes someone pro-fascist, is as about as absurd as it gets.

by Eilzel Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:38 am

It comes down to what the two groups want.

Nazis want an unequal society and support discrimination or even violence against many minority groups.

Antifa opposes Nazism, the movement isn't inheritantly authoritarian communist.

While I don't support violence at all, the reasons both group exist are sunstatially different. One is abhorrent, the other totally understandable.

by Original Quill Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:58 am

Antifa is simply an effective counter-force to fascism, Neo-Nazism and white supremacy in the US. It has no policy agenda other than this simple, null purpose.

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:12 am

Eilzel wrote:It comes down to what the two groups want.

Nazis want an unequal society and support discrimination or even violence against many minority groups.

Antifa opposes Nazism, the movement isn't inheritantly authoritarian communist.

While I don't support violence at all, the reasons both group exist are sunstatially different. One is abhorrent, the other totally understandable.

And that shows how little you know.

I notice you use the word Nazism, and not fascism.
They oppose fascism, anti-sexism, anti-homophobia but do not oppose Islamofascim. It never counters any Islamism and even defends them, thus contradicting itself. It does not oppose Communism and in fact many embraces Communism.
They oppose capitalism and Government.
It emphatically endorses violence. Which anywhere else in the world, where a group uses violence as a means to strike fear, would be classed as what Eilzel?
They most certainly are extreme lefties
They hate anyone right of Stalin
They are anti-police
They are anti-Free Speech

Both are abhorrent. Both are not understandable.

by Original Quill Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:13 am

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:If you don't like the anti-fascists (antifa), then we'll assume you are pro-fascist...profa, as it were.

Well that shows how badly you failed to read or understand the article

I am against fascism and communism.

So to claim that being against Antifa, makes someone pro-fascist, is as about as absurd as it gets.

What on earth do you think Antifa promotes? Nothing, except to oppose growing Fascism in the US. Here is what your article says:

OP wrote:The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to traditional American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent, and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition. But many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not. And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid.

Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment? In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it is a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

That's it...nothing more than these empty words. No substantiation. No proof. No evidence. The article simply offers Fox News adjectives and adverbs. Antifa is no more than a non-violent group that champions an open society and the standards by which to achieve it. They offer a counter-voice to the Nazis and white supremacists.

The whole article is a vacuous apologia for alleging that Nazism is an intelligent discussion, not just what it really is: gratuitous violence and anarchy.

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:15 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Well that shows how badly you failed to read or understand the article

I am against fascism and communism.

So to claim that being against Antifa, makes someone pro-fascist, is as about as absurd as it gets.

What on earth do you think Antifa promotes? Nothing, except to oppose growing Fascism in the US. Here is what your article says:

The promote hate and violence

They oppose fascism, anti-sexism, anti-homophobia but do not oppose Islamofascim. It never counters any Islamism and even defends them, thus contradicting itself. It does not oppose Communism and in fact many embraces Communism.
They oppose capitalism and Government.
It emphatically endorses violence. Which anywhere else in the world, where a group uses violence as a means to strike fear, would be classed as what?
They most certainly are extreme lefties
They hate anyone right of Stalin
They are anti-police
They are anti-Free Speech

Both are abhorrent. Both are not understandable.

Here read CNN, see what gibberish excuse you come out with now?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

by Original Quill Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:31 am

Didge, the all the content in your clip is provided by the questioner. Listen to it again...see? We all know how to quote out of context. And you, most of all, are familiar with cut & paste posts.

In a video clip, the editor gathers a bunch of statements, edits them around (clips and reshuffles), and then invents the questions...which the questioner creates in a studio, after-the-fact. That is not evidence; that is invention. That is why in law courts one must provide foundation, chain-of-custody...and tampering with reproduction materials is strictly prohibited.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the editing. Notice the clip flips in between question and answer? A 'cut-away' means the video has been cut...literally. Now you don't know what the respondent is answering, and so the whole chain of content is destroyed.

Besides which, the whole thing is hearsay. Who is behind the mask...perhaps a real Nazi, posing as a member of Antifa? You'll have to provide real proof.

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:34 am

Original Quill wrote:
You'll have to provide real proof.

What do you mean listen to it? This is CNN, so you have no excuses and you then invent unsubstantiated claims. This is the kind of crap Tommy comes out with on pictures, now you make the same poor claim on article without a shred of proof. Mainly as you have a confirmation bias for the group. So you need to prove CNN is lying

You have documented responses by some of their supporters.

I have already listened to it and hence why I posted it to you

As usual you do your level best to do to the following

The Alt-Right Is Bad — And So Is ‘Antifa’ Pcfv01p10_15

The Alt-Right Is Bad — And So Is ‘Antifa’ Pcfv01p10_15

Move along, i shall wait for Eilzel, who at least will be serious enough to discuss this

Laters

by Original Quill Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:38 am

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
You'll have to provide real proof.

What do you mean listen to it? This is CCN, so you have no excuses and you then invent unsubstantiated claims

I have already listened to it and hence why I posted it to you

As usual you do your level best to do to the following

It's CNN, and the person behind the mask is a Breitbart News poser, making the lies up. Jesus, you are gullible.

Read my post again...there's no chain of content, no foundation and the whole thing is hearsay. It's a lesson in how to bootstrap your argument, when you have nothing to go on.

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:41 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

What do you mean listen to it? This is CCN, so you have no excuses and you then invent unsubstantiated claims

I have already listened to it and hence why I posted it to you

As usual you do your level best to do to the following

It's CNN, and the person behind the mask is a Breitbart News poser, making the lies up. Jesus, you are gullible.

Read my post again...there's no chain of content, no foundation and the whole thing is hearsay. It's a lesson in how to bootstrap your argument, when you have nothing to go on.

So yet more unsubstantiated claims

Prove your case?

Its you giving hearsay

Prove they are lying

Prove that CNN has an undercover Breitbart News poser, right under their noses in Sara Ganim and Chris Welch,?

Which has to go down as one of the most idiotic claims you have ever made

Its a lesson in not bothering to continue to listen to your gibberish and barking mad conspiracies.

I shall instead wait for Eilzel, if you wish to speak about conspiracies, I suggest you debate Tommy.

by 'Wolfie Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:35 pm

Eilzel wrote:It comes down to what the two groups want.

Nazis want an unequal society and support discrimination or even violence against many minority groups.

Antifa opposes Nazism, the movement isn't inheritantly authoritarian communist.

While I don't support violence at all, the reasons both group exist are sunstatially different. One is abhorrent, the other totally understandable.

Too true, that...

Basically, that article in the O/P is pure and unadulterated free-market_capitalist-apologist crap...

Right from the beginning its freedom-hating, worker-hating, "leftie" blaming author of that propaganda nonsense has made the spurious claim that anybody belonging to an anti-fascist group must -- by his idiotic, arrogant and unproven personal definition -- automatically be either a hardcore Stalinist communist totalitarian; or else a gullible dupe falling for that evil communistic trickery !

Doesn't seem to be any 'shades of grey' in that cold, hard, dispassionate, free-market/"trickle down" world that Herr Goldberg resides on.. Basketball

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:01 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Eilzel wrote:It comes down to what the two groups want.

Nazis want an unequal society and support discrimination or even violence against many minority groups.

Antifa opposes Nazism, the movement isn't inheritantly authoritarian communist.

While I don't support violence at all, the reasons both group exist are sunstatially different. One is abhorrent, the other totally understandable.

Too true, that...

Basically, that article in the O/P is pure and unadulterated free-market_capitalist-apologist crap...

Right from the beginning its freedom-hating, worker-hating, "leftie" blaming author of that propaganda nonsense has made the spurious claim that anybody belonging to an anti-fascist group must -- by his idiotic, arrogant and unproven personal definition -- automatically be either a hardcore Stalinist communist totalitarian; or else a gullible dupe falling for that evil communistic trickery !

Doesn't seem to be any 'shades of grey' in that cold, hard, dispassionate, free-market/"trickle down" world that Herr Goldberg resides on..

So as predicted all wolf can do is try to deligitimize the author of the article and offer nothing of substance

by Original Quill Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:44 pm

Thorin wrote:Here read CNN, see what gibberish excuse you come out with now?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

And after I point out that it's classic alt.right unsubstantiated fake news...

Thorin wrote:So yet more unsubstantiated claims

Prove your case?

I don’t really need to. There is nothing for which to answer until there is something to be challenged. Even if it were not a posed production, nothing the actors say is substantiated on the clip. “Unsubstantiated claims” means that there are only words being confronted, not something real or corporeal.

But the production is designed to (mis)portray an attitude, not provide any content. The actor is opining her character, not any allegedly truthful claim.

Thorin wrote:Its you giving hearsay

I’m not providing anything. I’m questioning. It's meaningless drivel to say something is hearsay, when nothing is said to begin with. You don't know the basics of discourse.

But, as long as we are on the subject, 'hearsay' is offered in court as evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. What you see in this clip are descriptions (by someone—who?) about a movement—ie, what someone not present says as to its meaning. A movement, after all, presumes many more than one person.

The reason why hearsay is impermissible is that one cannot question the source. The respondent is not "the movement" but someone posing as the movement. Unquestionably a fake, designed to impute a mind-set to the Antifa movement. It's an alt.right production.

Thorin wrote:Prove they are lying

Prove that CNN has an undercover Breitbart News poser, right under their noses in Sara Ganim and Chris Welch,?

Who says it is CNN? More likely, someone has taken a CNN clip, spliced it, and interjected their own content: a poser from the alt.right, giving answers the producer wants to impute to Antifa.

Thorin wrote:Which has to go down as one of the most idiotic claims you have ever made

Its a lesson in not bothering to continue to listen to your gibberish and barking mad conspiracies.

I shall instead wait for Eilzel, if you wish to speak about conspiracies, I suggest you debate Tommy.

That’s all right. I’m used to your running away. Of course, you really can't hide. I can deflate any post you offer, even if you pretend it's not to involve me.

The real phenomenon is the fact that you run. Why? Because underneath, you have come to realize, as I have, that this pseudo-CNN clip is a propaganda faux-piece...classic alt.right fake news.

And I caught it on the first pass. It's somewhat embarrassing to you that you, the presenter, didn't catch it. But I'm sure you'll go on, and on, and on, and on... I'll be around when you make a chance, occasionally relevant point...

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:01 pm

So Quill admits he has no evidence for his claims

Well that was easy

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:16 pm

I mean I will now prove how bonkers Quill is

One of the authors of the article is Sara Ganim

http://edition.cnn.com/profiles/sara-ganim-profile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Ganim

Like I say, Quill really lives in some bonkers reality world where he can make some very fanciful claims, offering nothing to back it up..

Razz

by 'Wolfie Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:12 pm

Thorin wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Too true, that...

Basically, that article in the O/P is pure and unadulterated free-market_capitalist-apologist crap...

Right from the beginning its freedom-hating, worker-hating, "leftie" blaming author of that propaganda nonsense has made the spurious claim that anybody belonging to an anti-fascist group must -- by his idiotic, arrogant and unproven personal definition -- automatically be either a hardcore Stalinist communist totalitarian; or else a gullible dupe falling for that evil communistic trickery !

Doesn't seem to be any 'shades of grey' in that cold, hard, dispassionate, free-market/"trickle down" world that Herr Goldberg resides on..

So as predicted all wolf can do is try to deligitimize the author of the article and offer nothing of substance

Not hard at all, to delegitamise some bigotted corporate-fascist apologist propagandist masquerading as some kind of authority on his sibject, posting a pro-capitalist attack against an anti-fascist protest, appearing on some apparent right-wing propaganda blogsite for some rabid right-wing think tank...

Biased, just a bit, that alt.right blabberfest of an author.

And, neither he nor Didge provides one iota of evidence proving that the anti-fascist protesters are the bunch of hard-left Stalinists that he claims they are --making the O/P itself nothing more than yet another right-wing/laissez-faire/'free market' propaganda puff piece.

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:19 pm

The OP says Nazism and communism were much the same...!!!

So therefore both were forms of far left socialism...!!!

Isnt that what I've been saying for years...!!!???

Laughing

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The OP says Nazism and communism were much the same...!!!

So therefore both were forms of far left socialism...!!!

Isnt that what I've been saying for years...!!!???

#

The Alt-Right Is Bad — And So Is ‘Antifa’ 0bf

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So as predicted all wolf can do is try to deligitimize the author of the article and offer nothing of substance

Not hard at all, to delegitamise some bigotted corporate-fascist apologist propagandist masquerading as some kind of authority on his sibject, posting a pro-capitalist attack against an anti-fascist protest, appearing on some apparent right-wing propaganda blogsite for some rabid right-wing think tank...

Biased, just a bit, that alt.right blabberfest of an author.

And, neither he nor Didge provides one iota of evidence proving that the anti-fascist protesters are the bunch of hard-left Stalinists that he claims they are --making the O/P itself nothing more than yet another right-wing/laissez-faire/'free market' propaganda puff piece.

So all you can do again is attack the Author and not actually take on points of the article.

That is all lefties like you do

Try to deligitimize

It matters not a jot what you think of the author if you think he is biased.

You have to reason against his points

I provided plenty of evidence antifa are far left

So over to you

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:43 pm

Think you need to stop covering your eyes and actually read what OP article says...!

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Think you need to stop covering your eyes and actually read what OP article says...!

More like you need to understand what he is saying, not what you make up inside your head.

Do you want me to post again what he said and quuoted, or do you want to look silly on this?

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Think you need to stop covering your eyes and actually read what OP article says...!

More like you need to understand what he is saying, not what you make up inside your head.

Do you want me to post again what he said and quuoted, or do you want to look silly on this?

Post it again...!!!

As I dont want to look silly on this...!!!

lol!

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:07 pm

Thorin wrote:Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment?

Fighting Nazis is a good thing, but fighting Nazis doesn’t necessarily make you or your cause good. By my lights this is simply an obvious fact. The greatest Nazi-killer of the 20th century was Josef Stalin. He also killed millions of his own people and terrorized, oppressed, enslaved, or brutalized tens of millions more. The fact that he killed Nazis during the Second World War (out of self-preservation, not principle) doesn’t dilute his evil one bit.

This should settle the issue as far as I’m concerned. Nazism was evil. Soviet Communism was evil. It’s fine to believe that Nazism was more evil than Communism. That doesn’t make Communism good. Alas, it doesn’t settle the issue. Confusion on this point poisoned politics in America and abroad for generations.

Part of the problem is psychological. There’s a natural tendency to think that when people, or movements, hate each other, it must be because they’re opposites. This assumption overlooks the fact that many — indeed, most — of the great conflicts and hatreds in human history are derived from what Sigmund Freud called the “narcissism of minor differences.”

Part of the problem is psychological. There’s a natural tendency to think that when people, or movements, hate each other, it must be because they’re opposites. This assumption overlooks the fact that many — indeed, most — of the great conflicts and hatreds in human history are derived from what Sigmund Freud called the “narcissism of minor differences.” Most tribal hatreds are between very similar groups.

The European wars of religion were between peoples who often shared the same language and culture but differed on the correct way to practice the Christian faith. The Sunni–Shia split in the Muslim world is the source of great animosity between very similar peoples. The young Communists and fascists fighting for power in the streets of 1920s Germany had far more in common with each other than they had with decent liberals or conservatives, as we understand those terms today. That’s always true of violent radicals and would-be totalitarians.

The second part of the problem wasn’t innocent confusion, but sinister propaganda. As Hitler solidified power and effectively outlawed the Communist Party of Germany, The Communist International (Comintern) abandoned its position that socialist and progressive groups that were disloyal to Moscow were “fascist” and instead encouraged Communists everywhere to build “popular fronts” against the common enemy of Nazism. These alliances of convenience with social democrats and other progressives were a great propaganda victory for Communists around the world because they bolstered the myth that Communists were just members of the Left coalition in the fight against Hitler, bigotry, fascism, etc.

This obscured the fact that whenever the Communists had a chance to seize power, they did so. And often, the first people they killed, jailed, or exiled were their former allies. That’s what happened in Eastern Europe, Cuba and other places where Communists succeeded in taking over the government. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not. If you haven’t figured it out yet, this seemingly ancient history is relevant today because of the depressingly idiotic argument about whether it’s okay to equate “antifa” — anti-fascist left-wing radicals — with the neo-Nazi and white-supremacist rabble that recently descended on Charlottesville, Va.

The president wants to claim that there were “very fine people” on both sides of the protest and that the anti-fascist radicals are equally blameworthy. He borrowed from Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity the bogus term “alt-left” to describe the antifa radicals. The term is bogus for the simple reason that, unlike the alt-right, nobody calls themselves “the alt-left.” And that’s too bad. One of the only nice things about the alt-right is that its leaders are honest about the fact that they want nothing to do with traditional American conservatism. Like the original Nazis, they seek to replace the traditional Right with their racial hogwash. T

The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to traditional American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent, and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition. But many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys. They’re not. And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid.

Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment? In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it is a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450583/alt-right-antifa-both-bad-groups-ideology

Show me where he states they are very much the same politically?
Show me where they were the same racially on politics?
Show me where they were the same on economies?

In your own time

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm

Try reading the first half of the article...

Not that I think you will understand it...

As you haven't even realised that one of the paragraphs is repeated within the quote...!!!

Laughing

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:23 pm

So you could not answer then

What a surprise

Laughing

Oh well that was easy also

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:32 pm

I answered... you floundered...!

Laughing

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:35 pm

Did you tommy?

I cannot see these imaginary answers lol

Laughing

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:41 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:The OP says Nazism and communism were much the same...!!!

So therefore both were forms of far left socialism...!!!

Isnt that what I've been saying for years...!!!???

#

I told you... you need to uncover your eyes and try actually reading the article... that YOU POSTED!!!

Laughing

by Guest Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:46 pm

Is that why you cannot answer my questions Tommy?

The ones you imagined that you answered.

lol!

by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:23 pm

Read your OP to see what I said is true!

Laughing

by Guest Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:37 am

In their ongoing attempt to paint everyone on the Right in the darkest hues, some mainstream Leftists have decided that anyone who slams Antifa must be a Nazi sympathizer. This started almost immediately after the Charlottesville white supremacist terrorist attack, when President Trump suggested there was blame on “many sides.”

The problem with Trump’s statement was its vagary: it was unclear whether Trump was blaming ideology of “many sides” or violence of “many sides” or both. But Trump’s vagueness led The New York Times to this pronouncement:

But the tragedy in Charlottesville — specifically, the death of a young woman at the hands of a Nazi sympathizer who the authorities said ran her down with his car — undercut the notion that the black-masked radical leftists who smash windows and hurl firebombs are an equal menace.

That’s a rather incredible statement, since Antifa has been radically violent over the past couple of years. They’ve initiated riots in Sacramento, Berkeley, and Seattle; they’ve threatened violence in Portland, Chicago, and Dallas. They just spent the weekend attacking police officers.

But the “don’t condemn Antifa or you’re a Nazi sympathizer” talking point has become quite popular. Jeet Heer of The Atlantic put it this way:

Follow
Jeet Heer

✔@HeerJeet

[ltr]Imagine being so addicted to glib both-sides-ism that that you don't understand unique dangers Nazis pose to humanity. https://twitter.com/josh_hammer/status/899113866596057088 …[/ltr]

So, is it downplaying the threat of Nazis to point out the threat of Antifa?

There are two measures we must examine in terms of any moral comparison between Antifa and neo-Nazis. First, there’s the ideological. Then, there’s behavior.

Let’s begin with the ideological. Antifa has no clear-cut ideology, but they seem to be a mashup of communists and anarchists. Neo-Nazis are white supremacists who believe in the innate inferiority of non-Caucasians, and therefore believe that they have the right to oppress other groups. It’s fair to say that Nazism is a uniquely evil philosophy, more evil than the communist philosophy, even though the communist philosophy of Antifa was responsible for tens of millions of deaths globally. So if we were to say that communism is as evil as Nazism, we’d be wrong. By the same token, if we were to whitewash communism, we’d be even more wrong.

Then there’s the question of violence. When conservatives condemn Antifa, they’re pointing out that use of violence in response to peaceful protest by evil people is more dangerous than peaceful protest by evil people. Those who initiate violence in a free society are a bigger problem than those who preach evil; the whole point of civilization, as Max Weber stated, was to give the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force other than in self-defense. Breaking that compact and equating speech with violence is a serious threat to a civilized country. Condemning Antifa for their violent tactics in Boston, for example, should be required of all decent citizens in the same way that condemning Nazi ideology should be.

But this whole argument is a fraud anyway. Very few Americans stand in favor of Nazism, and the Left’s game of broadening out the label “Nazi sympathizer” is merely a political ploy. Antifa isevil. So is Nazism. Two things can be evil at the same time. Anyone who doesn’t believe that should do a little historical research on Stalin and Hitler.

But there are far more Americans condemning Nazism in the last two weeks than Americans who seem willing to condemn the breakdown of law and order. In fact, many mainstream Leftists are now defending Antifa. And that may make Antifa and its attendant violence a serious threat to the social fabric.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/19981/if-you-condemn-antifa-are-you-excusing-neo-nazism-ben-shapiro#

by Original Quill Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:18 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Read your OP to see what I said is true!

You are right, tommy:

OP wrote:This should settle the issue as far as I’m concerned. Nazism was evil. Soviet Communism was evil. It’s fine to believe that Nazism was more evil than Communism. That doesn’t make Communism good.

But it doesn't prove what you think it does. You need to step outside of both Nazism and Communism and, ignoring what they say, look at what they became.

Germany had only recently joined together as a single state under Prussian control, when industrialism had been thrust upon it. German socialism never got a good start, despite the fact that Marx was a native German. This is because Germany was under the strong sway of conservative Prussian military governance. WWI left Germany in disarray. Nazism pretended to adopt socialism, but really...it simply carried on the habit of authoritarian government. The strongest influence was Prussian militarism.

Russia never had a workers movement. Russia went from an agrarian society to communism, without any real industrialism. Remember, Marxism was an economic theory defining industrial economics. It was supposed to result in a transitional consciousness. What would be the transition for Russia, with no real industrialism?

Thus, Nazi Germany leaned toward Prussian habits, and Russia, still a farm economy, leaned toward Czarist habits. They both became authoritarian states. Surprise, surprise. They followed their old habits and nothing more evolved.

The point is, neither Russia nor Germany were either left or right. That polarity--the idea of a left and a right--assumes certain economic conditions, leading to either socialism or military oligarchy. Both Germany and Russia had only their authoritarian pasts and (never going through a true collectivist period) they simply carried on with their authoritarian ways.

Read what they were, not what they said.

by veya_victaous Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:01 am

Thorin defending Nazis by strawmaning that those that were protesting the neo-Nazis where extreme left rather than just anti Nazi Evil or Very Mad

and it is defending
there is a group of good people trying nazis and thorin is there going "no, don't stop them, cause some bullshit in Russia 60 years ago blah blah blah" standing between the good people and the Nazi, to allow the nazi to continue.

by Guest Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:07 am

And yet more lies from Veya

I condemn both Nazi's and Antifa

The more you make unfounded claims Veya, the more you look even more wrong

For example I back the The Simon Wiesenthal Center.

They are non-violent and what do they do Veya?

There are many non-violent groups that counter Nazism/racism.

I certainly back them to counter Nazism/racism

So where does that leave your ridiculous argument?

by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Quill... what about the rest of the OP...?

There is much more that i was talking about!

by Original Quill Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:52 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... what about the rest of the OP...?

There is much more that i was talking about!

Once you debunk the idea that Nazism and Soviet Communism are real doctrines, then there is no basis to compare or contrast them. Any connection is spurious. They both stem from the authoritarianism in the past of their respective countries, which has no link between them.

Those countries had vastly different economies--Germany being European industrial, Russia being agrarian--so that even an argument of parallel development doesn't work.

Once you debunk the possibility of a common thread between them, there is no thesis of the sort you mention. Your argument isn't erroneous because it took a wrong turn; rather, it's wrong because it just evaporates.

The doctrines associated with each nation were simply failed experiments...talk, without a basis in reality. Pay attention to what they were, not what they said.

by veya_victaous Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:53 am

Thorin wrote:And yet more lies from Veya

I condemn both Nazi's and Antifa

The more you make unfounded claims Veya, the more you look even more wrong

For example I back the The Simon Wiesenthal Center.

They are non-violent and what do they do Veya?

There are many non-violent groups that counter Nazism/racism.

I certainly back them to counter Nazism/racism

So where does that leave your ridiculous argument?

Yes you condemn those that fight Against Nazis Evil or Very Mad

cause you a braindead twat with no moral stance of value

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/george-clooney-amal-donation-anti-hate-group-trump-charlottesville-southern-poverty-law-center-a7907281.html

thankfully decent people (which you are not) can clearly see that there are "There are no two sides to bigotry and hate.”

by Guest Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:31 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Thorin wrote:And yet more lies from Veya

I condemn both Nazi's and Antifa

The more you make unfounded claims Veya, the more you look even more wrong

For example I back the The Simon Wiesenthal Center.

They are non-violent and what do they do Veya?

There are many non-violent groups that counter Nazism/racism.

I certainly back them to counter Nazism/racism

So where does that leave your ridiculous argument?

Yes you condemn those that fight Against Nazis
cause you a braindead twat with no moral stance of value

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/george-clooney-amal-donation-anti-hate-group-trump-charlottesville-southern-poverty-law-center-a7907281.html

thankfully decent people (which you are not) can clearly see that there are "There are no two sides to bigotry and hate.”

So the bases for your argument, to defend violent Communist/anarchists, is that two celebrities have donated to the Southern Poverty Law Centre?

Not Antifa

Seriously?

Also the Southern Poverty Center has lost a huge amount of credibility when it cast Maajid Nawaz and Ayaan Hirsii as extremists

http://nypost.com/2017/06/30/the-tolerant-left-has-no-problem-bashing-those-who-speak-out-against-Muslim-extremists/

You have no concept of what a decent human being is, if you think its acceptable for protesters/counter protesters to use violence against each other. In a secular and democratic society.

I condemn all extremists, especially those who use violence. Which is both the Nazi's and Antifa

I back many non-violent anti-Nazi groups, again of which you ignore

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