Grenfell Tower Investigators To Consider Manslaughter Charges

Police will consider manslaughter charges as part of the investigation into the Grenfell Tower blaze, which left at least 79 people dead. Scotland Yard said on Friday that the fire started in a faulty fridge and that insulation and tiles on the block failed safety tests. Nine out of the 79 dead or presumed dead have been formally identified, police said.

Metropolitan Police Detective Superintendent Fiona McCormack said: “I know there is a fear that that number is a lot higher and I do not want any hidden victims of this tragedy.”

Police said they are still trying to establish who was in the 24-storey tower block the night the fire broke out last Wednesday. DSI McCormack confirmed that neither the police, nor the Home Office, will use the tragedy to check the immigration status of anybody in the block and urged friends and relatives of those feared missing to come forward.

The search of the Lancaster West Estate high-rise could take until the end of the year.

Police said there are currently more than 250 specialist investigators working on “all aspects” of the investigation.

“The terrible reality is we may not find or identify all those who died in the fire,” DSI McCormack added.


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-tiles-failed-safety-tests-met-police-say_uk_594cdc45e4b0da2c731ad593?utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

So where is the man who's fridge it was? He had a suitcase with him (apparently) and he ran off into the night. Why has he not been interviewed yet?

eddie wrote:So where is the man who's fridge it was? He had a suitcase with him (apparently) and he ran off into the night.  Why has he not been interviewed yet?

Has he not? He should have been questioned straightaway.

So what about all the other buildings with the same cladding which haven't caught fire? I don't think one can be prosecuted for attempted manslaughter.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:So where is the man who's fridge it was? He had a suitcase with him (apparently) and he ran off into the night.  Why has he not been interviewed yet?

Has he not? He should have been questioned straightaway.

So what about all the other buildings with the same cladding which haven't caught fire? I don't think one can be prosecuted for attempted manslaughter.

Well he hasnt been interviewed by any media or mobile phone footage as far as I can tell and many, many others have.

I said this at the beginning. If he only chucked water over it and alerted the Fire Station, and people in the flat, I doubt it would've got as bad as it did. He ran away without calling 999, he is culpable of manslaughter.

magica wrote:I said this at the beginning.  If he only chucked water over it and alerted the Fire Station, and people in the flat, I doubt it would've got as bad as it did.  He ran away without calling 999, he is culpable of manslaughter.

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

HoratioTarr wrote:

magica wrote:I said this at the beginning.  If he only chucked water over it and alerted the Fire Station, and people in the flat, I doubt it would've got as bad as it did.  He ran away without calling 999, he is culpable of manslaughter.

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

I was just thinking that! Bloody hell Mags, good job you're not a firewoman

eddie wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

I was just thinking that! Bloody hell Mags, good job you're not a firewoman

I remember someone doing that with a chip pan. It was my cousin. It caught fire and she was about to pour a pan of water into it. I shouted, 'No! put a damp tea towel over it!' She did and it went out. She was 24 and I was 8.

I'd seen something about it on Blue Peter.

eddie wrote:So where is the man who's fridge it was? He had a suitcase with him (apparently) and he ran off into the night.  Why has he not been interviewed yet?

I'm really less concerned about him than the manufacturers, installers and inspectors who approved the cladding.  As I read the OP, there are several factors contributing to deaths in this fire, only one of which is the owner of the fridge:

OP wrote:Scotland Yard said on Friday that the fire started in a faulty fridge and that insulation and tiles on the block failed safety tests.

There's a lot of rumor and gossip surrounding this owner of the fridge, and I'm still wondering if he even exists.  I mean, it's all he said, she said, we said, they said...  The guy seems to have disappeared, and somehow that seems to be more nefarious than the fire itself..  True, the guy is a lead, but a tenuous one.  And how important?

The cladding is the more important concern.  If anything, it killed the people most directly.  Who manufactured such shoddy materials?  Who approved it for use in London?  Who chose it for this tower?  Who installed it?  These seem to be more pressing concerns than this mythical man who appears to have dropped into a rabbit hole.

HoratioTarr wrote:

magica wrote:I said this at the beginning.  If he only chucked water over it and alerted the Fire Station, and people in the flat, I doubt it would've got as bad as it did.  He ran away without calling 999, he is culpable of manslaughter.

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

It was a fridge and waters better than nothing, yes a wet towel, than just running away. Daft me

eddie wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

I was just thinking that! Bloody hell Mags, good job you're not a firewoman

One of the first reports that mention where the fire first started, was when a neighbour said a man knocked on her door and told her his fridge had started a fire. She said he had already packed his bags or cases, he then left.

Another neighbour said he didn't call the fire brigade, he alerted some neighbours to the fire then left....and it was left to them to call the fire brigade.

A later report then said the fire had been reported, put out, firemen left, but then the huge fire started that escalated throughout the building so quicky.

magica wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

It was a fridge and waters better than nothing, yes a wet towel,   than just running away. Daft me

magica wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You don't chuck water over an electrical fire.

It was a fridge and waters better than nothing, yes a wet towel,   than just running away. Daft me

You do realise that electricity can go through the water you chuck on and kill you, don't you?

Syl wrote:One of the first reports that mention where the fire first started, was when a neighbour said a man knocked on her door and told her his fridge had started a fire. She said he had already packed his bags or cases, he then left.

Another neighbour said he didn't call the fire brigade, he alerted some neighbours to the fire then left....and it was left to them to call the fire brigade.

A later report then said the fire had been reported, put out, firemen left, but then the huge fire started that escalated throughout the building so quicky.

Well. It's all a bit odd. Why didn't this man call 999 but knock on a neighbour's door, instead?

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:One of the first reports that mention where the fire first started, was when a neighbour said a man knocked on her door and told her his fridge had started a fire. She said he had already packed his bags or cases, he then left.

Another neighbour said he didn't call the fire brigade, he alerted some neighbours to the fire then left....and it was left to them to call the fire brigade.

A later report then said the fire had been reported, put out, firemen left, but then the huge fire started that escalated throughout the building so quicky.

Well. It's all a bit odd. Why didn't this man call 999 but knock on a neighbour's door, instead?

Too busy packing his smalls by the sounds of it. Made sure he got all his things together while the fridge started cooking up a conflagration.

Its been confirmed that a Hotpoint fridge/freezer is where the fire first started.

Presumably the flats occupant has been found and questioned. Maybe they are not revealing his name to safeguard him, especially if he found time to pack and get out safely instead of dealing with the fire before it spread,

On the other hand it could all be false reports.

Syl wrote:Its been confirmed that a Hotpoint fridge/freezer is where the fire first started.

Presumably the flats occupant has been found and questioned. Maybe they are not revealing his name to safeguard him, especially if he found time to pack and get out safely instead of dealing with the fire before it spread,

On the other hand it could all be false reports.

I've got one of those. I wonder if there was a lot of fluff in the bottom of it.

HoratioTarr wrote:

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:One of the first reports that mention where the fire first started, was when a neighbour said a man knocked on her door and told her his fridge had started a fire. She said he had already packed his bags or cases, he then left.

Another neighbour said he didn't call the fire brigade, he alerted some neighbours to the fire then left....and it was left to them to call the fire brigade.

A later report then said the fire had been reported, put out, firemen left, but then the huge fire started that escalated throughout the building so quicky.

Well. It's all a bit odd. Why didn't this man call 999 but knock on a neighbour's door, instead?

Too busy packing his smalls by the sounds of it.    Made sure he got all his things together while the fridge started cooking up a conflagration.

None of it rings true though. Unless of course he wasn't supposed to be there and was fearful of deportation.

eddie wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Too busy packing his smalls by the sounds of it.    Made sure he got all his things together while the fridge started cooking up a conflagration.

None of it rings true though. Unless of course he wasn't supposed to be there and was fearful of deportation.

I just found this...the man was named in the press a week ago.



."The devastated mini-cab driver whose faulty fridge allegedly started the Grenfell Tower fire is said to still be ‘in shock’.
Behailu Kebede raised the alarm by knocking on neighbours doors shortly after the flames took hold in his flat on the fourth floor.

One neighbour said she was woken up by the father-of-one, who lived in flat 16, at ‘exactly 12.50am’.
She said he told her there was a fire in his kitchen, but there was no alarm sounding.
A friend of Mr Kebede, who is originally from Ethiopia, said he escaped the building but was still in shock.


http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/devastated-cab-driver-whose-faulty-fridge-started-grenfell-tower-fire-is-in-shock-6711743/

Was it only in the metro??

eddie wrote:Was it only in the metro??

I don't know because I was away and didn't see any papers last week.....I just found that online.

HoratioTarr wrote:

magica wrote:

It was a fridge and waters better than nothing, yes a wet towel,   than just running away. Daft me

You do realise that electricity can go through the water you chuck on and kill you, don't you?

Yeah I know which is why I had a red face edited in

Maybe he's an illegal, or renting from the tenant.

magica wrote:Maybe he's an illegal, or renting from the tenant.

Well if he is his name has been splashed across the paper.

I don't think its fair to name him actually.....sometimes the press are very unthinking.

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:Maybe he's an illegal, or renting from the tenant.

Well if he is his name has been splashed across the paper.

I don't think its fair to name him actually.....sometimes the press are very unthinking.

No it isn't fair, you're right.

DOWN HERE,  the police wouldn't be "considering laying charges"  in situations of this magnitude...

The 'police investigations' would be accompanied by parallel investigations by other agencies such as the Firies/emergency services themselves, and those government departments covering such issues as building standards, work safety and work practices, and public housing..

The state gov't here would hand the oversight of those investigations to the State Coroner --  and while the individual agencies might suggest various charges (and some may lay various fines against specific acts..), the State Coroner would be then be the one who would be asking the Public Prosecutor to consider laying criminal charges against any guilty parties.

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:Maybe he's an illegal, or renting from the tenant.

Well if he is his name has been splashed across the paper.

I don't think its fair to name him actually.....sometimes the press are very unthinking.

Why not? He buggered off, no thought to the residents, never called 999, and probably out of the country now. I have no pity for this man, he let those people die.

magica wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well if he is his name has been splashed across the paper.

I don't think its fair to name him actually.....sometimes the press are very unthinking.

Why not?  He buggered off, no thought to the residents, never called 999, and probably out of the country now.  I have no pity for this man, he let those people die.

To be fair Magica, anyone would grab as much as possible and get the hell out of their place if on fire.
Its easy in hindsight to castigate people, but people easily panic in such situations, but he did warn people.

The devastated mini-cab driver whose faulty fridge allegedly started the Grenfell Tower fire is said to still be ‘in shock’. Behailu Kebede raised the alarm by knocking on neighbours doors shortly after the flames took hold in his flat on the fourth floor.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/devastated-cab-driver-whose-faulty-fridge-started-grenfell-tower-fire-is-in-shock-6711743/#ixzz4kv3ivp78

Remember many people phoned the emergency services who advised them through emergency procedures to remain in their apartments and place towels up against their doors, until the emergency services arrived. Many of those who did so, were the majority of the victims of this fire.

2. Some residents started to evacuate through the central fire escape stairwell – the only escape route. But others were told by emergency services over the phone to put towels around doors and stay put until help arrived. This advice has been known to work in buildings that are well compartmentalised, preventing the rapid spread of the fire from floor to floor. At Grenfell Tower, many who received this advice are likely to have died. Some who remained in their flats spoke to friends and family on the phone – the last time many were heard from.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-how-fire-spread-graphic-a7792661.html

magica wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well if he is his name has been splashed across the paper.

I don't think its fair to name him actually.....sometimes the press are very unthinking.

Why not?  He buggered off, no thought to the residents, never called 999, and probably out of the country now.  I have no pity for this man, he let those people die.

I definitely think his actions should be investigated, but to name him at this time, when peoples feelings are so high. doesn't seem like a good idea.
If as reported he did a runner with his belongings, the guilt he is feeling now in light of what happened must be unbearable.

Probably far worse than the makers of the fridge freezer who still churn out appliances made from substances banned in other countries because they are known to be a potential death trap.
Probably far worse than local councils who tarted up the buildings with cheap crap, known to be unsafe.

If we are naming and shaming people the list is going to get very long before all this is finished.

Of course the material used was wrong, the fridge manufactures are answerable too, but so is he for leaving a building on fire, not raising the alarm, and leaving people to die.

magica wrote:Of course the material used was wrong, the fridge manufactures are answerable too, but so is he for leaving a building on fire, not raising the alarm, and leaving people to die.

He did raise the alarm and the Fire brigade brought under control the fire in his flat, read my previous link tha he did warn people.

The devastated mini-cab driver whose faulty fridge allegedly started the Grenfell Tower fire is said to still be ‘in shock’. Behailu Kebede raised the alarm by knocking on neighbours doors shortly after the flames took hold in his flat on the fourth floor.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/devastated-cab-driver-whose-faulty-fridge-started-grenfell-tower-fire-is-in-shock-6711743/#ixzz4kv3ivp78

Remember many people phoned the emergency services who advised them through emergency procedures to remain in their apartments and place towels up against their doors, until the emergency services arrived. Many of those who did so, were the majority of the victims of this fire.

2. Some residents started to evacuate through the central fire escape stairwell – the only escape route. But others were told by emergency services over the phone to put towels around doors and stay put until help arrived. This advice has been known to work in buildings that are well compartmentalised, preventing the rapid spread of the fire from floor to floor. At Grenfell Tower, many who received this advice are likely to have died. Some who remained in their flats spoke to friends and family on the phone – the last time many were heard from.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-how-fire-spread-graphic-a7792661.html

The Fire brigade were leaving when it ignited again

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged. Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed. Shortly after dealing with the fridge fire early last Wednesday, firefighters were telling residents that it was out, BBC Panorama reported.

But, soon after, the 24-storey building was consumed by flames in one of Britain's biggest ever tower block fires that left at least 79 people dead. Panorama on Monday night reported that firefighters had seen flames "shooting up" the side of the building. Those reports will add weight to claims that it was the cladding on the exterior of Grenfell Tower that caused the fire to spread so rapidly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

I know many people are angry at the loss of life here, but a culmination of factors caused this loss of life.
Its wrong to center on this man without evidence.
The Police have stated the fire was not deliberate.
Ask yourself, how you would feel if a fire started in your house that then later spread and cost the lives of many people. Would you show your face in public. I cannot begin to imagine how that man feels at the moment, but for people to blame him after we know it was a faulty fridge and because of the cladding as to why the fire spread, is poor to say the least of people.

This is what really annoys me about when people fear and believe they have no control over their lives. That they invent nonsense to the reasons and causes of this massive death toll.

I sadly expect its because he is Somalian and no doubt Muslim, that some people are stupidly believing this was some how a terrorist attack or look to blame him.

I mean lets picture how the conspiracy mindset works.

We know the fire was caused by a faulty fridge

We know the fire brigade were able to put out the fire in his flat.

That when they were leaving, the fire reignited as fires often do (any basic knowledge of fire safety will tell you the dangers of this happening) and spread so quickly up the side of the building. Though in this case it did not reignite in the flat but outside the building due to the cladding. Nobody could foresee that or predict that would work or happen.

That based on these facts, that a Taxi driver would have to (if we believe the conspiracy theorists) have deliberately tampered with his fridge. Then based off this, have him warn tenants in the building and call the fire brigade. Which would be daft if you wanted to create as much damage as possible. Who the fire brigade we know, were able to put the fire out. Where even more outlandish, after calling them. That he could predict and know because of the cladding, that after being heated so much. It would ignite and spread so rapidly on the outside of the building. This Taxi driver placing "chance" on the fire being hot enough to cause the cladding to ignite.

That is why and how those who live and are controlled by fear are so easily led. When you look at this as to what actually happened. It proves that for this to have been deliberate. Required chance as a factor for this fire to ignite the cladding and spread. Which means they would have to know and understand a high level of physics of this cladding, but more so place this whole gambit on chance. That they would have to know how long and how hot enough the fire would have to be left going, to then ignite the cladding. An aspect, nobody could predict, if they had called the fire brigade and then those emergency crews were able to put out that fire. I mean why call them and warn people. If your goal is to create mayhem?

It would be illogical and all evidence points to the fact, nobody really took on board the danger of this cladding. Its highly improbable that this Taxi driver could perceive such a plan and then for it to happen as it did. It makes next to no sense, when you scrutinize this closely.

If people are looking at this man solely because he is foreign and a Muslim, then they should be ashamed of themselves. As I bet many of you in the same situation would have not even bothered to warn people and got out as quickly as possible. He actually warned people. Try placing yourself in the same situation and imagine this, because its clear many cannot. Because your first natural thought would be to reach safety. Its a natural reaction to when a person is under threat. Adrenaline takes control either with fight or flight. So for people to then make what I class as the worst blame game, have no comprehension ho they would act in the same situation.

There is 200 specialists investigating this fire. How about allowing them to carry out their work and allow them  to later tell us their findings.

This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

'Scapegoating' is always an easy option, as seen with Horatio's, Magica's and Syl's weak efforts above there, built entirely on rumours, suggestions and hearsay..

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

'Scapegoating' is always an easy option, as seen with Horatio's, Magica's and Syl's weak efforts above there, built entirely on rumours, suggestions and hearsay..

Your first paragraph was great, your next spoilt it

Stop attacking posters Wolf

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

'Scapegoating' is always an easy option, as seen with Horatio's, Magica's and Syl's weak efforts above there, built entirely on rumours, suggestions and hearsay..

I wasn't scape goating I said what was in the news.  Syl was sticking up for the man so how's that scapegoating. I don't,HT was scapegoating either, get your facts right wolf. Don't see what you want to see.

magica wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

'Scapegoating' is always an easy option, as seen with Horatio's, Magica's and Syl's weak efforts above there, built entirely on rumours, suggestions and hearsay..

I wasn't scape gloating I said what was in the news.  Syl wassticking up for the man so how's that scapegoating. I don't thinkER was scapegoating either, get your facts right wolf

You were scapegoating magica

I like you loads, but you did, by going off the man who had the fire start in his flat

Your views castigated him, when you were in error to how he did warn people.

I agree Wolf is wrong to castigate people, but you did scapegoat the Somalian

Nobody said anything about him being Somalian or being a terrorist. You're the one who's banging on about that Didge, and assuming he's a Muslim. People are merely questioning what exactly he did when his fridge caught fire.

What I don't get is how the fire could have started again after it had been put out, or how the fire officers could have missed that. Furthermore, they were then on the spot to deal with a fire which was four storeys up on the outside. I'm not sure I believe that bit.

Raggamuffin wrote:Nobody said anything about him being Somalian or being a terrorist. You're the one who's banging on about that Didge, and assuming he's a Muslim. People are merely questioning what exactly he did when his fridge caught fire.

What I don't get is how the fire could have started again after it had been put out, or how the fire officers could have missed that. Furthermore, they were then on the spot to deal with a fire which was four storeys up on the outside. I'm not sure I believe that bit.

Are they questioning Rags?

magica wrote:Of course the material used was wrong, the fridge manufactures are answerable too, but so is he for leaving a building on fire, not raising the alarm, and leaving people to die.

I have read views on the web and by the media, where some of the media have blamed him

I never claimed any here did go off him being Muslim or Somalian but am going off what is being said around the web. So I decided to make my point on this and never pointed the finger at any poster did I, on that post?

Okay Rags, have you ever had any fire safety training?

Because if you have, one of the first things you will understand is how fires can easily restart, even after putting them out. What happened here was how the cladding ignited.

Thorin wrote:

magica wrote:

I wasn't scape gloating I said what was in the news.  Syl wassticking up for the man so how's that scapegoating. I don't thinkER was scapegoating either, get your facts right wolf

You were scapegoating magica

I like you loads, but you did, by going off the man who had the fire start in his flat

Your views castigated him, when you were in error to how he did warn people.

I agree Wolf is wrong to castigate people, but you did scapegoat the Somalian

They said it was his fridge that started the fire, that's not making him a scapegoat its the truth. Like Rags, I can't see how it started again when the fire was put out.

magica wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

'Scapegoating' is always an easy option, as seen with Horatio's, Magica's and Syl's weak efforts above there, built entirely on rumours, suggestions and hearsay..

I wasn't scape goating I said what was in the news.  Syl was sticking up for the man so how's that scapegoating. I don't,HT was scapegoating either, get your facts right wolf. Don't see what you want to see.

Ignore him Mags...he just has a list of posters he tries to include in every post he makes to try to cause ill feeling.

If people read the initial reports of how the fire started, it was a neighbour of his who first mentioned the man had packed his bags before alerting anyone to the fire.
Obviously the man had no idea the fire would cause such devastation and loss of life....but the fact he packed first then fled is the reason I know people were angry.

If there were no sprinklers or fire extinguishers to hand (and reports say there was not) even if he had phoned the fire service immediately it seems it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome.

Also the advice given was for people to stay in their apartments and block the door frames...the people who ignored this advice were the ones who had a chance to get out.

The responsibility for this disaster lies firmly with the makers of the fridge and the people who allowed cheaper inferior materials known to be a fire hazard  to be used in the refurb of the flats.

magica wrote:

Thorin wrote:


You were scapegoating magica

I like you loads, but you did, by going off the man who had the fire start in his flat

Your views castigated him, when you were in error to how he did warn people.

I agree Wolf is wrong to castigate people, but you did scapegoat the Somalian

They said it was his fridge that started the fire, that's not making him a scapegoat its the truth. Like Rags, I can't see how it started again when the fire was put out.

So if the fridge was fault, how was it his fault?

You blamed him for leaving, when an rational person faced with fire, just as an animal does, flees a fire. As not only does the fire kill itself but so does the toxic fumes. I showed to you, that he warned people and that the fire brigade put out the fire in the flat.

You want to know how fires reignite? or how fires ignite elsewhere due to a fire?

Its a combination of heat and oxygen that are combustible. Often fires that are put out, are susceptible to reigniting.

Syl wrote:

magica wrote:

I wasn't scape goating I said what was in the news.  Syl was sticking up for the man so how's that scapegoating. I don't,HT was scapegoating either, get your facts right wolf. Don't see what you want to see.

Ignore him Mags...he just has a list of posters he tries to include in every post he makes to try to cause ill feeling.

If people read the initial reports of how the fire started, it was a neighbour of his who first mentioned the man had packed his bags before alerting anyone to the fire.
Obviously the man had no idea the fire would cause such devastation and loss of life....but the fact he packed first then fled is the reason I know people were angry.

If there were no sprinklers or fire extinguishers to hand (and reports say there was not) even if he had phoned the fire service immediately it seems it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome.

Also the advice given was for people to stay in their apartments and block the door frames...the people who ignored this advice were the ones who had a chance to get out.

The responsibility for this disaster lies firmly with the makers of the fridge and the people who allowed cheaper inferior materials known to be a fire hazard  to be used in the refurb of the flats.

Wow, you are being as guilt y as wolf now Syl, after I told him off for fueling the flames of this fire.

Do you now see how fires reignite?

For those who do not understand fires

http://www.wikihow.com/Extinguish-a-Fire-at-the-Initial-Stages

Wolf wrote:This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen -- but in hindsight largely preventable -- smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

Exactly what I'm thinking, too: chase this guy down his rabbit hole and leave all other concerns behind. I suppose focusing on one individual increases the drama in the script--if he's Muslim, all the richer--but does anyone care that 79 people died, and that the same cladding is found on 27 other towers?

Someone has hired a good PR firm: look over there, don't look over here.

Original Quill wrote:

Wolf wrote:This whole idea of blaming one person for what subsequently unfolded down tne line, after a chain of unforeseen --  but in hindsight largely preventable --  smells a lot like some people are already building a defence for the actions of council officers, inspectors, building contractors, politicians and whoever else shares in the ultimate blame...

Exactly what I'm thinking, too: chase this guy down his rabbit hole and leave all other concerns behind.  I suppose focusing on one individual increases the drama in the script--if he's Muslim, all the richer--but does anyone care that 79 people died, and that the same cladding is found on 27 other towers?

Someone has hired a good PR firm: look over there, don't look over here.

I agree Quill on your first paragraph, but again the second has no evidence.

Its paranoia that has caused people to look to blame the Somalian Muslim

Thorin wrote:

magica wrote:

They said it was his fridge that started the fire, that's not making him a scapegoat its the truth. Like Rags, I can't see how it started again when the fire was put out.

So if the fridge was fault, how was it his fault?

You blamed him for leaving, when an rational person faced with fire, just as an animal does, flees a fire. As not only does the fire kill itself but so does the toxic fumes. I showed to you, that he warned people and that the fire brigade put out the fire in the flat.

You want to know how fires reignite? or how fires ignite elsewhere due to a fire?

Its a combination of heat and oxygen that are combustible. Often fires that are put out, are susceptible to reigniting.

Why didn't he alert the fire services and the residents then. That's what I'm blaming him for not for having the fridge. He only told one resident.

Also he's not Somalian he's Ethiopean and could be Christian, many are.

magica wrote:

Thorin wrote:

So if the fridge was fault, how was it his fault?

You blamed him for leaving, when an rational person faced with fire, just as an animal does, flees a fire. As not only does the fire kill itself but so does the toxic fumes. I showed to you, that he warned people and that the fire brigade put out the fire in the flat.

You want to know how fires reignite? or how fires ignite elsewhere due to a fire?

Its a combination of heat and oxygen that are combustible. Often fires that are put out, are susceptible to reigniting.

Why didn't he alert the fire services and the residents then. That's what I'm blaming him for not for having the fridge. He only told one resident.

There are 127 flats Magica, why would he need to warn them all?

Did you not read the link I posted twice for, where witnesses state he did warn people, more to the fact they are now alive because he warned them. More to the fact the fire brigade were able to originally put out the fire in his flat? If the fire brigade had managed to control and put out the fire, why would anyone leave? They were leaving themselves until they saw that the fire had spread outside. Again you are looking at this in poor hindsight and not understanding the facts. It was the cladding that ignited and spread the fire, which was way after he the fire emergency services had attended. So why again are you looking to castigate the man where the fire started?

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Ignore him Mags...he just has a list of posters he tries to include in every post he makes to try to cause ill feeling.

If people read the initial reports of how the fire started, it was a neighbour of his who first mentioned the man had packed his bags before alerting anyone to the fire.
Obviously the man had no idea the fire would cause such devastation and loss of life....but the fact he packed first then fled is the reason I know people were angry.

If there were no sprinklers or fire extinguishers to hand (and reports say there was not) even if he had phoned the fire service immediately it seems it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome.

Also the advice given was for people to stay in their apartments and block the door frames...the people who ignored this advice were the ones who had a chance to get out.

The responsibility for this disaster lies firmly with the makers of the fridge and the people who allowed cheaper inferior materials known to be a fire hazard  to be used in the refurb of the flats.

Wow, you are being as guilt y as wolf now Syl, after I told him off for fueling the flames of this fire.

Do you now see how fires reignite?

I know how fires reignite Thor...and it takes less than 2 minutes for an appliance like this one to start an uncontrollable Kitchen fire, especially if there are no sprinklers or extinguishers to deal with the initial flames.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cheap-appliances-putting-lives-risk-10679025



"While attention has been focused on cheap, combustible cladding on up to 600 tower blocks, the Mirror today raises disturbing questions about potentially killer appliances.
We have campaigned tirelessly over faulty Hotpoint, Creda and Indesit tumble dryers linked to fires in which people were killed.
.Now we learn the fridge freezer behind the Grenfell blaze is likely to have had a highly inflammable plastic backing – like most budget models sold here, as they are cheaper to produce than ones with a safer, metal cover.

It is scandalous when major manufacturers do not sell them in America ­– presumably for fear they could be sued for millions. And that, probably as a direct result, we have had many more casualties from considerably fewer fires."