Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses and turbans in the workplace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/bosses-can-ban-headscarves-and-crucifixes-eu-judge-says/

Is it a step forwards?
I tend to think not..... I agree that a full face veil is not appropriate at work, but if a headscarf, turban, crucifix, or any other article worn for religious or cultural reasons doesn't interfere with the job why ban them?

Maybe it's to make everyone the same. I think it's a good idea to help everyone integrate tbh.

Syl wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/bosses-can-ban-headscarves-and-crucifixes-eu-judge-says/

Is it a step forwards?
I tend to think not..... I agree that a full face veil is not appropriate at work, but if a headscarf, turban, crucifix, or any other article worn for religious or cultural reasons doesn't interfere with the job why ban them?

I think it's a very bad decision. Headscarves or Turbans aren't affecting the way in which people work so why ban them! It doesn't make sense

No problem with head scarves, saves a women doing her hair !

nicko wrote:No problem with head scarves,  saves a women doing her hair !  

Only for the outside world!

It wasn't that long ago that Nadia Eweida won her case for the right to wear a cross at work after her company claimed it was "jewellery". I suppose people will now claim that their crosses are jewellery and not a religious symbol.

I hate it when people tell you what to wear as a working responsible adult.
Does wearing a headscarf stop you doing a job?

I totally disagree with this infringement of personal liberty by employers. Employers should be able to regulate your lifestyle to the point that it affects your job performance and no further.

People aren't slaves to their employers, they are essential components of any business or organization who deserve that kind of respect.

magica wrote:Maybe it's to make everyone the same. I think it's a good idea to help everyone integrate tbh.

I don't agree Mags, I can see it causing problems not helping people integrate better.
Who wants to look the same as everyone else anyway? I don't.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/bosses-can-ban-headscarves-and-crucifixes-eu-judge-says/

Is it a step forwards?
I tend to think not..... I agree that a full face veil is not appropriate at work, but if a headscarf, turban, crucifix, or any other article worn for religious or cultural reasons doesn't interfere with the job why ban them?

I think it's a very bad decision. Headscarves or Turbans aren't affecting the way in which people work so why ban them! It doesn't make sense

I agree SM. I can see the banning of the full face veil has a point, but why a headscarf?
The only jobs I can see it being a problem was brought to the attention of the media a few years ago, a hairdresser insisted on wearing a headscarf for cultural reasons when the policy was all staff wore their hair styles to show off to customers cuts and colours etc....apart from that, as long as they are safe if machinery is being used, I don't see the sense in banning.

Raggamuffin wrote:It wasn't that long ago that Nadia Eweida won her case for the right to wear a cross at work after her company claimed it was "jewellery".  I suppose people will now claim that their crosses are jewellery and not a religious symbol.  

They are mostly worn as jewelry.....I suppose crosses are included so as to appear to be fair to all.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:It wasn't that long ago that Nadia Eweida won her case for the right to wear a cross at work after her company claimed it was "jewellery".  I suppose people will now claim that their crosses are jewellery and not a religious symbol.  

They are mostly worn as jewelry.....I suppose crosses are included so as to appear to be fair to all.

How will they tell the difference? The idea is to ban religious clothing, although I'm not sure that a cross constitutes "clothing". If someone claims they're wearing it as jewellery, they won't be able to ban it, unless they have a ban on all jewellery.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

They are mostly worn as jewelry.....I suppose crosses are included so as to appear to be fair to all.

How will they tell the difference? The idea is to ban religious clothing, although I'm not sure that a cross constitutes "clothing". If someone claims they're wearing it as jewellery, they won't be able to ban it, unless they have a ban on all jewellery.

I suppose they will just ban crosses no matter why they are worn.
There was a case a few years ago, a nurse was told to remove the cross she had worn for over 30 years, she refused and was sacked I think.

The hijab is not a religious requirement and is not even found within the Quran as a headscarf or compulsory that women cover their hair. Its a made up neoconservative Islamic form of oppression, that sees countless women forced to wear. Why should religions get a privilege on forms of dress to where at work? I could not go in wearing a bandanna to work. So why do we have to have inequality within the work place that places those religious be privileged above others?

I am glad they have done this, because the headscarf in Islam is based on the view that women are the cause of men's desires and that women are at fault. Its bullshit and such a misogyny forms of dress. Of which the hijab is and have no place within a progressive society.


I am against banning, but if people want to wear their religious wear, then, they have to respect a companies decision on dress code. They are not obligated to pander to ideological forms of oppression. When you work for a company, you sign a contract, to follow those rules.


Simple solution, find a job, that panders to such oppressive forms of dress.

Lol

Have you read the Quran?

So you have based your theory on what? Hearsay?

Pfffft!

At least when you are debating learn to know the facts!

Syl wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

I think it's a very bad decision. Headscarves or Turbans aren't affecting the way in which people work so why ban them! It doesn't make sense

I agree SM. I can see the banning of the full face veil has a point, but why a headscarf?
The only jobs I can see it being a problem was brought to the attention of the media a few years ago, a hairdresser insisted on wearing a headscarf for cultural reasons when the policy was all staff wore their hair styles to show off to customers cuts and colours etc....apart from that, as long as they are safe if machinery is being used, I don't see the sense in banning.

What about bald hairdressers?

Utter bollocks. Just a few months ago you were saying that schools had no right to enforce a dress code and now you're saying employers can?

eddie wrote:Utter bollocks. Just a few months ago you were saying that schools had no right to enforce a dress code and now you're saying employers can?

For kids yes, so they can progress without forms of restriction to learn.
They are not adults, and as adults you have to follow rules on the choice of the company you chose to work with.

Two different things, as the child does not have a choice not to go to school or the choice their parents send them to.
An adult does have a choice over where they work
Nice to see you support oppressive forms of dress that see millions of women forced to wear globally
Not only that its not Islamic, but cultural
So bollocks to you

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl wrote:

I agree SM. I can see the banning of the full face veil has a point, but why a headscarf?
The only jobs I can see it being a problem was brought to the attention of the media a few years ago, a hairdresser insisted on wearing a headscarf for cultural reasons when the policy was all staff wore their hair styles to show off to customers cuts and colours etc....apart from that, as long as they are safe if machinery is being used, I don't see the sense in banning.

What about bald hairdressers?

Men or women?

Syl wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

What about bald hairdressers?

Men or women?

Lol Men!

It's the same thing when it comes down to it didge. It's enforcing a dress code, and you said that kids shouldn't be told what to wear as it doesn't stop them learning - well a headscarf doesn't stop these people working.

After all the fancy wording is picked though it's the same bloody thing.

Surely it should be choice....freedom to choose.
Its as bad for women to be TOLD to wear a head covering as it is for her to be denied it if she chooses herself to wear it.

Thorin wrote:

eddie wrote:Utter bollocks. Just a few months ago you were saying that schools had no right to enforce a dress code and now you're saying employers can?

For kids yes, so they can progress without forms of restriction to learn.
They are not adults, and as adults you have to follow rules on the choice of the company you chose to work with.

Two different things, as the child does not have a choice not to go to school or the choice their parents send them to.
An adult does have a choice over where they work
Nice to see you support oppressive forms of dress that see millions of women forced to wear globally
Not only that its not Islamic, but cultural
So bollocks to you

Why do you think it's oppressive?

Have you spoken to Muslim women who wear it? No didn't think so cause they WANT to wear the headscarf and are not forced into it like you believe!

eddie wrote:It's the same thing when it comes down to it didge. It's enforcing a dress code, and you said that kids shouldn't be told what to wear as it doesn't stop them learning - well a headscarf doesn't stop these people working.

After all the fancy wording is picked though it's the same bloody thing.

No its not the same thing at all.
Dress codes for kids, hinder them learning and should be done away with.
The child does not have a choice wear they go to school.
You as an individual do, when working.
The point, is why should an employed provide favoritism to some employees over others?
You do understand what equality is?
Second, is not a requirement, but where Muslim women have been brainwashed with a view, that if they do not wear, they will suffer in the after life and even worse that they are to blame for the sexual desires of men and that they should cover up.
Please explain to me, how on what on earth you can defend that.

I mean think about it this way.
If we are to believe it is a command from this deity. Then either this deity is incompetent and design men flawed, that they cannot control their desires. So issues a command, that women need to cover thier hair, in order to not be sexually harnessed, even though, wearing a headscarf is completely ineffective from stopping them being sexually harnessed or even raped.

Or

This deity deliberately designed men this way. That they are unable to control their desires and that women are forced to cover thier hair, in the misguided belief this will stop men sexually harnessing them and raping them. Even though, clearly this deity is lying, as men rape and sexually harass them anyway.

That is why you are defending something that is pure bullshit, that demeans women

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


For kids yes, so they can progress without forms of restriction to learn.
They are not adults, and as adults you have to follow rules on the choice of the company you chose to work with.

Two different things, as the child does not have a choice not to go to school or the choice their parents send them to.
An adult does have a choice over where they work
Nice to see you support oppressive forms of dress that see millions of women forced to wear globally
Not only that its not Islamic, but cultural
So bollocks to you

Why do you think it's oppressive?

Have you spoken to Muslim women who wear it? No didn't think so cause they WANT to wear the headscarf and are not forced into it like you believe!

Women are forced to wear and those who claimed to chose to wear and not choosing to wear but choosing the Islamic school of thought. That teaches that if they do not wear, they will suffer in the after life.

That is not a choice, and fear is used.

Also 

I mean think about it this way.
If we are to believe it is a command from this deity. Then either this deity is incompetent and design men flawed, that they cannot control their desires. So issues a command, that women need to cover thier hair, in order to not be sexually harnessed, even though, wearing a headscarf is completely ineffective from stopping them being sexually harnessed or even raped.

Or

This deity deliberately designed men this way. That they are unable to control their desires and that women are forced to cover thier hair, in the misguided belief this will stop men sexually harnessing them and raping them. Even though, clearly this deity is lying, as men rape and sexually harass them anyway.

That is why you are defending something that is pure bullshit, that demeans women

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl wrote:



Men or women?

Lol Men!

Ahhh.....got you.
I should think a bald hairdresser would be a real boon in a salon, men still pay good money to have a No 1.



Some women too.  

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Why do you think it's oppressive?

Have you spoken to Muslim women who wear it? No didn't think so cause they WANT to wear the headscarf and are not forced into it like you believe!

Women are forced to wear and those who claimed to chose to wear and not choosing to wear but choosing the Islamic school of thought. That teaches that if they do not wear, they will suffer in the after life.

That is not a choice, and fear is used.

Also 

I mean think about it this way.
If we are to believe it is a command from this deity. Then either this deity is incompetent and design men flawed, that they cannot control their desires. So issues a command, that women need to cover thier hair, in order to not be sexually harnessed, even though, wearing a headscarf is completely ineffective from stopping them being sexually harnessed or even raped.

Or

This deity deliberately designed men this way. That they are unable to control their desires and that women are forced to cover thier hair, in the misguided belief this will stop men sexually harnessing them and raping them. Even though, clearly this deity is lying, as men rape and sexually harass them anyway.

That is why you are defending something that is pure bullshit, that demeans women

No fear is not used and you are not understanding the mindset here.

It's out of the love and not fear these women wear it. The whole point of being religious is to please Allah SWT.

Men rape women regardless of what they are wearing

This is about modesty.

Syl Even though I love guys with hair I think he's dead sexy!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Women are forced to wear and those who claimed to chose to wear and not choosing to wear but choosing the Islamic school of thought. That teaches that if they do not wear, they will suffer in the after life.

That is not a choice, and fear is used.

Also 

I mean think about it this way.
If we are to believe it is a command from this deity. Then either this deity is incompetent and design men flawed, that they cannot control their desires. So issues a command, that women need to cover thier hair, in order to not be sexually harnessed, even though, wearing a headscarf is completely ineffective from stopping them being sexually harnessed or even raped.

Or

This deity deliberately designed men this way. That they are unable to control their desires and that women are forced to cover thier hair, in the misguided belief this will stop men sexually harnessing them and raping them. Even though, clearly this deity is lying, as men rape and sexually harass them anyway.

That is why you are defending something that is pure bullshit, that demeans women

No fear is not used and you are not understanding the mindset here.

It's out of the love and not fear these women wear it. The whole point of being religious is to please Allah SWT.

Men rape women regardless of what they are wearing

This is about modesty.

Really?

You are telling me no emphasis is played off hell, if they choose not to wear, say in salafism?

Love?

Don;t make me laugh

So if its to please allah, and you fail to please him by not wearing, then you will suffer.

Thank you for backing exactly what I said.

There is no verse in the Quran, that says Muslim women have to cover their hair

Its a cultural invention to control women

I tell you what Sexy

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should too.
They can revert back to wearing, after Muslim countries that enforce this, drop the requirement.

That would be a real choice

If a headscarf is not a religious requirement, it's also not a religious symbol.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl Even though I love guys with hair I think he's dead sexy!

Mean and moody....he could cut my hair anytime.

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No fear is not used and you are not understanding the mindset here.

It's out of the love and not fear these women wear it. The whole point of being religious is to please Allah SWT.

Men rape women regardless of what they are wearing

This is about modesty.

Really?

You are telling me no emphasis is played off hell, if they choose not to wear, say in salafism?

Love?

Don;t make me laugh

So if its to please allah, and you fail to please him by not wearing, then you will suffer.

Thank you for backing exactly what I said.

There is no verse in the Quran, that says Muslim women have to cover their hair

Its a cultural invention to control women

I tell you what Sexy

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should too.

They choose to wear it. Who is forced? Do you know of anyone as I asked you previously?

Hell and Heaven is what religion is based on and all the major religions have to adhere to this.

It's a CHOICE to wear the headscarf. Not ALL Muslim women wear it.

That in itself shows it's a free choice.

End of.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Really?

You are telling me no emphasis is played off hell, if they choose not to wear, say in salafism?

Love?

Don;t make me laugh

So if its to please allah, and you fail to please him by not wearing, then you will suffer.

Thank you for backing exactly what I said.

There is no verse in the Quran, that says Muslim women have to cover their hair

Its a cultural invention to control women

I tell you what Sexy

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should too.

They choose to wear it. Who is forced? Do you know of anyone as I asked you previously?

Hell and Heaven is what religion is based on and all the major religions have to adhere to this.

It's a CHOICE to wear the headscarf. Not ALL Muslim women wear it.

That in itself shows it's a free choice.

End of.

Countries where it is compulsory

So they do not chose to wear

They choose the Islamic school of thought, that has a compulsory dress code.

How can women have a choice where its is compulsory to wear in some Muslim countries?

So again, please answer the question

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should to

Religious discrimination is against the law, so how is it going to work? People have won cases and been awarded money for such discrimination, like the Sikh police officer who sued the police.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/02/sikh-police-turban-tribunal

Syl wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl Even though I love guys with hair I think he's dead sexy!

Mean and moody....he could cut my hair anytime.

He can do more than that with me!

Hahahahaha!

Raggamuffin wrote:Religious discrimination is against the law, so how is it going to work? People have won cases and been awarded money for such discrimination, like the Sikh police officer who sued the police.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/02/sikh-police-turban-tribunal

How is it discrimination?

Show me why a religious person, should have more rights, than someone else at work?

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

They choose to wear it. Who is forced? Do you know of anyone as I asked you previously?

Hell and Heaven is what religion is based on and all the major religions have to adhere to this.

It's a CHOICE to wear the headscarf. Not ALL Muslim women wear it.

That in itself shows it's a free choice.

End of.

Countries where it is compulsory

So they do not chose to wear

They choose the Islamic school of thought, that has a compulsory dress code.

How can women have a choice where its is compulsory to wear in some Muslim countries?

So again, please answer the question

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should to

I was talking about my country.

In regards to overseas slowly the time will come when it won't be forced upon. The tide is changing

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Countries where it is compulsory

So they do not chose to wear

They choose the Islamic school of thought, that has a compulsory dress code.

How can women have a choice where its is compulsory to wear in some Muslim countries?

So again, please answer the question

If Muslim women who claim to chose to wear. Why not then prove this is the case. By them refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear? That they show their solidarity with them?
Do you know why they don;t do this?
Because those who believe they should cover, believe that other Muslim should to

I was talking about my country.

In regards to overseas slowly the time will come when it won't be forced upon. The tide is changing

That voided the question and again its not a choice.

If they choose a school of thought to follow, that has a compulsory dress code.
Then  the choise in not on whether to wear, but the doctrine they follow.
Why not help that tide by showing it truly is a choice to wear. By those who choose to wear, refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear. Until change happens and such a law is revoked. They can then revert back to wearing.
Would this not be a powerful message to those countries that force women to wear?

Syl wrote:Surely it should be choice....freedom to choose.
Its as bad for women to be TOLD to wear a head covering as it is for her to be denied it if she chooses herself to wear it.

Yes I agree. But lots and lots of Muslim women do choose to wear it themselves.

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:Surely it should be choice....freedom to choose.
Its as bad for women to be TOLD to wear a head covering as it is for her to be denied it if she chooses herself to wear it.

Yes I agree. But lots and lots of Muslim women do choose to wear it themselves.

Sorry, no they do not. The choice is based on the belief they follow, that they should wear.
There is a big difference.
Certain Islamic schools of thought, have compulsory dress codes.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Syl wrote:

Mean and moody....he could cut my hair anytime.

He can do more than that with me!

Hahahahaha!

Just as an aside....yes please I'll have one.

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:


I was talking about my country.

In regards to overseas slowly the time will come when it won't be forced upon. The tide is changing

That voided the question and again its not a choice.

If they choose a school of thought to follow, that has a compulsory dress code.
Then  the choise in not on whether to wear, but the doctrine they follow.
Why not help that tide by showing it truly is a choice to wear. By those who choose to wear, refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear. Until change happens and such a law is revoked. They can then revert back to wearing.
Would this not be a powerful message to those countries that force women to wear?

No that's a silly and naive thing to say.

Then you are 'forcing' the women to NOT wear it!

See the irony with your idea?

Thorin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Yes I agree. But lots and lots of Muslim women do choose to wear it themselves.

Sorry, no they do not. The choice is based on the belief they follow, that they should wear.
There is a big difference.
Certain Islamic schools of thought, have compulsory dress codes.

Didge you are not making sense!

Next you will be saying choosing religion is forced! And they should remain Atheists

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:

That voided the question and again its not a choice.

If they choose a school of thought to follow, that has a compulsory dress code.
Then  the choise in not on whether to wear, but the doctrine they follow.
Why not help that tide by showing it truly is a choice to wear. By those who choose to wear, refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear. Until change happens and such a law is revoked. They can then revert back to wearing.
Would this not be a powerful message to those countries that force women to wear?

No that's a silly and naive thing to say.

Then you are 'forcing' the women to NOT wear it!

See the irony with your idea?

How am I forcing?



I said, it would be a choice if they choose to refuse to wear, to be in solidarity for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear.

I see you inventing bullshit, to nothing I said.

Read again and please point out where I demanded anything?
I never did and you are avoiding the point and clearly do not care for your Muslim sisters forced to wear.

How can you not see this as a real choice. Where those claiming it is a choice and who wear, they chose not to wear. By being in solidarity for those who are forced to wear.

You are doing the worst misdirection and deflection to the point at hand

So again

Why not help that tide by showing it truly is a choice to wear. By those who choose to wear, refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear. Until change happens and such a law is revoked. They can then revert back to wearing.
Would this not be a powerful message to those countries that force women to wear?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Sorry, no they do not. The choice is based on the belief they follow, that they should wear.
There is a big difference.
Certain Islamic schools of thought, have compulsory dress codes.

Didge you are not making sense!

Next you will be saying choosing religion is forced! And they should remain Atheists

It is for some, from the earliest ages.

Does the child have a choice, when the parents force this religion on them?

No

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:Surely it should be choice....freedom to choose.
Its as bad for women to be TOLD to wear a head covering as it is for her to be denied it if she chooses herself to wear it.

Yes I agree. But lots and lots of Muslim women do choose to wear it themselves.

I think they do, and SM who knows more than me on these matters says so too.
If its their own choice to wear a head covering I don't see any reason to deny them that choice.

No

Cause you are 'forcing' them to not wear it WHEN THEY WANT TO WEAR it!!!!

Let's take into account the Sikh turbans

Are they forced?

No

Do ALL Sikh men wear it?

No

How will this ban affect them?

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge you are not making sense!

Next you will be saying choosing religion is forced! And they should remain Atheists

It is for some, from the earliest ages.

Does the child have a choice, when the parents force this religion on them?

No

The child grows up!

Next!

SEXY MAMA wrote:No

Cause you are 'forcing' them to not wear it WHEN THEY WANT TO WEAR it!!!!

Let's take into account the Sikh turbans

Are they forced?

No

Do ALL Sikh men wear it?

No

How will this ban affect them?

Wrong.
Show men again where I said they must not wear?

I said why can they not chose not to wear to be in solidarity for their Muslim sisters?

If Sikhs are forced to wear, then that is also wrong

One last chance

Why not help that tide by showing it truly is a choice to wear. By those who choose to wear, refusing to wear and standing up for their Muslim sisters, who are forced to wear. Until change happens and such a law is revoked. They can then revert back to wearing.
Would this not be a powerful message to those countries that force women to wear?