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About Us & RulesTyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
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Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:09 am
Back in the 18th century, political reformer Henry Fox was advocating giving the vote to more people. But only, he insisted, to what he called ‘the better sort’. Not ‘the mob or the mere dregs of the people’. Heaven forbid!
Now, in the 21st century, such derogatory sentiments about ‘the people’ are dangerously back in fashion — ever since they dared vote for Brexit in Britain, and for Donald Trump in the United States.
Questions are being asked in high places about whether ordinary voters are fit to make decisions on major issues.
As a result, democracy — the cornerstone of our way of life — is being undermined, its very survival put at risk. Its modern enemies are mustering from all corners — but most worryingly from the Left, the very area where its stoutest defenders should be.
As a long-standing person of the Left, I fear that democratic freedoms are now in danger of being abandoned as elitists in our midst attempt to restrict them.
Every serious politician and thinker declares his or her belief in democracy. Yet, in practice, they seek to separate power from the people. The mantra has become ‘I’m a democrat, of course, but …’
Over Brexit, this profoundly insidious attitude was exemplified by John Major, former Tory prime minister, who denied the referendum result was binding and declared: ‘The tyranny of the majority has never applied in a democracy.’
Some of us might naively have imagined that majority rule was the very essence of democracy. But not, it seems, when millions vote against the wishes of a tiny political elite.
It was, of course, George Orwell in his 1945 novel Animal Farm, who described how ‘All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.’
Fast-forward to today and we find many Remainers similarly convinced that anyone who voted to leave the EU is too stupid to have the vote. The response was the same in America when voters failed to elect Hillary Clinton.
Trump’s victory, one U.S. professor declared, was ‘the dance of the dunces’, the result of ‘uneducated, low-information white people’ being given the vote. He added: ‘Democracy is supposed to enact the will of the people. But what if the people have no clue what they’re doing?’
The fury against the 17.4 million UK voters who dared to back Brexit — and the 62 million Americans who had the temerity to vote for Trump — brings frightening anti-democratic poisons bubbling to the surface of our societies.
The sheer bile that erupted from political and cultural elites in Britain after the Brexit vote revealed a deep-seated contempt for the people and for democracy. The Establishment reacted as if the ground had disappeared from beneath their feet. How could this have happened?
After all, the Remain campaign had marshalled every authority in the Western world to warn that a Leave vote would lead to economic ruination, a descent into barbarism, world war and, worse, falling house prices.
The people had been told to vote Remain by leaders of all Britain’s mainstream political parties, the governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of Germany, the then President of the U.S., and every celebrity from David Beckham to Johnny Rotten.
Yet a majority of voters actually disobeyed!
In the eyes of the Establishment, the only possible explanation was that those millions were simply too ignorant, uneducated, gullible, bigoted or emotional to understand what they were being told.
What is curious is that those from the liberal and Left wings — the ones who claim to be most in favour of change in the UK — were most upset.
But instead of trying to understand, the response of many was to dismiss the result as merely a ‘howl of rage’ by voters who must have taken leave of their senses — and to find ways to block it. The Guardian paper, alleged voice of liberal Britain, produced an official post-referendum T-shirt that declares: ‘Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.’
Its columnist Polly Toynbee, grande dame of British liberalism, demanded that 231 Labour MPs — 70 per cent of whose constituencies voted for Brexit — must ‘save us’ from the referendum result. In the name of ‘democracy’, of course.
Such responses let slip the mask and revealed the ugly fact that this country’s political elite believes that matters of government are far too complex and sophisticated to let the governed decide.
For the record, I voted Leave with passion, but my attack is not aimed at the 16.1 million who voted to Remain. They made a rational choice, just as the Leavers did. The difference is that most Remainers now accept the result, unlike elitists such as Tony Blair or Richard Branson — or their poster girl Gina Miller, the City financier who led the court challenge, declaring that the revolting voters’ verdict ‘made her physically ill’.
The reaction from those on the Left was the same when the American electorate handed Trump the keys to the White House.
He had been denounced as a disgrace to U.S. politics not only by the political establishment and the media but also by alpha intellectuals Beyoncé and Jay-Z, Lady Gaga and Madonna, Jon Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen. How could Americans resist being dazzled by such a star-studded appeal, you might think?
Yet more than 62 million Americans did just that. They voted Trump in — to the consternation of every ‘liberal’ voice in the land. On campuses, students held protests and college authorities offered counselling and time off to ‘grieve’, as if they were victims of a tragic disaster.
Personally, I have no truck with the illiberal, free-speech-stomping, narrow-minded Trump. But what I don’t get is their astonishment and hysteria at what happened.
After the election, everybody suddenly started asking: ‘How could they vote for him?’
But it should not have been difficult to get a sense beforehand of the growing anger against the political elite among the voters Clinton branded ‘deplorables’.
It was just that nobody had ever bothered to ask those ‘deplorables’ what they thought. The underlying problem in the UK, the U.S. and other Western societies is that politics and public life have increasingly become the preserve of a self-regarding elite of officials, opinion formers, intellectuals and so-called experts. They treat ‘ordinary people’, the masses, as outside of politics and beyond the pale, their concerns marginalised and ignored.
The Brexit vote marked a revolt against the ‘enforced conformity’ preached by this elite. That it came as such a shock to them was a sign of how little contact they had with the real world. And still many of them don’t get it.
In the Left-wing New Statesman magazine, Professor Richard Dawkins, the leading evolutionary biologist and renowned humanist was unable to suppress his true feelings that the large slice of humanity who voted Leave were ‘stupid, ignorant people’. He protested that ‘it is unfair to thrust on to unqualified simpletons the responsibility to take historic decisions of great complexity and sophistication’.
Presumably such decisions would be better left to highly intellectual minds such as his own. Great atheist that he is, he appears to think the rest of us should have blind faith in people like him.
Meanwhile, the normally unflappable ‘leading man of the Left’, philosophy professor A.C. Grayling, wrote to every MP (apparently in the name of his students), demanding that they vote to ignore the result — which he said was driven by mere ‘demagoguery and sentiment’ — and remain in the European Union.
His extraordinary contention was that the majority of people are what he called ‘System One’ thinkers, who make decisions on impulse — and that what we need is to pay more heed to ‘System Two’ thinkers, who seek information, analyse it, and weigh arguments in order to come to decisions. People similar to him, presumably.
Thankfully, not all clever people took this anti-democratic line.
Wolf Hall author Hilary Mantel observed how: ‘As soon as the result was in, millions signed a petition to rub it out and do it again. The bien-pensants suggested the result was not binding, but advisory — an opinion they would hardly have offered had the vote gone the other way.’
Mantel compared the bitter Remain lobby to the ‘army of erasers’ she had encountered in Saudi Arabia, who dealt with things they didn’t like — pork, Israel, women’s equality — by simply removing mention of them from public life.
Interestingly, Mervyn King, the former governor of the Bank of England, observed that the disdain the Establishment showed for those worried about the EU had probably encouraged many to vote Leave — and attacked those who claimed ‘if you even contemplate voting for Brexit, you must be either ignorant, uneducated, stupid or racist.’
The emphasis of many critics of the referendum was on the ‘lies’ of the Leave campaign and how they had led gullible voters astray.
Yet research by the Electoral Reform Society leads to the opposite conclusion — that the majority declined to be swayed or bullied into submission.
They kept their eyes on the bigger issues and voted Leave because they wanted more control over their own lives, UK politics and the country’s borders.
Millions made the entirely rational calculation that these reasons were important enough to support Leave, even if the immediate economic impact was uncertain and might prove adverse. A fall in the pound could be a price worth paying for an increase in democracy and sovereignty.
Yet still their motives are impugned. One of the nastiest tricks of those who lost the referendum was to claim that those who voted for Brexit (and Trump) were racists and xenophobes. In which case their votes should be seen as morally illegitimate.
But the small-minded prejudices actually on display here were those of leading Remainers towards working-class voters.
The sad truth is that to the elite, such people are far more alien than suave Brussels bureaucrats.
Significantly, almost immediately after the referendum result, a new scare started over a reported spree of ‘hate crimes’ against immigrants in the UK. The political elite seized upon these allegations as proof that the Brexit vote had been a demonstration of British racism.
But does anybody seriously believe that 17.4 million UK voters backed Leave for racist motives?
The truth is that Britain today is a more tolerant and anti-racist society than ever before.
Yes, immigration was an important factor for many Leave voters. But it was far from the over-riding obsession it has been made out to be: a post-referendum poll found 34 per cent said immigration was their main concern but 53 per cent prioritised the ‘ability of Britain to make its own laws’.
The vast majority wanted EU migrants living and working in the UK to be allowed to stay.
Still the attempts went on to subvert the referendum result, with the intervention of the courts. First the Law Lords and then the Supreme Court saw fit to overrule the express wishes of 17.4 million Leave voters and tell the elected government it could not trigger Brexit without the permission of MPs and Lords in Parliament.
The same Parliament they had allowed to be overridden by Brussels for the previous 40 years.
Then there was the four-million-strong online petition calling on Parliament to hold another referendum that would require a larger margin of victory.
In similar vein was the letter signed by a thousand top lawyers, demanding that Parliament must decide (ie, vote for Remain). The QC behind this initiative explained: ‘In times of crisis people often turn to lawyers to ask them how we should behave in society.’
The arrogance of the notion that the opinions of 1,000 lawyers — whose fees are an affront to civilised society — could outweigh those of 17.4 million voters summed up the Remainers’ ‘some are more equal than others’ outlook.
Even now, the attempts continue to put Brexit back in its box, fuelled by a sense that too much democracy is dangerous.
The Brexit referendum vote opened up the opportunity for a new kind of political debate about the future of our society, engaging many who have previously felt excluded from public life.
Time and again, according to the Electoral Reform Society, its researchers heard people say the EU referendum was the first time their vote ‘had truly counted’. They decided for themselves what the truth was about the EU, and made their own choice in defiance of whatever was flung at them by the political class.
But the plain fact is that the elite in this country do not trust the mass of voters, believing we are too unintelligent, misinformed and emotional to make the right decisions on important issues.
Whichever side you took in June in the UK or November in the United States, we need to resist this with all our might.
The real issue should be to defend democratic principles against those who would tell us that some voters are more equal than others.
Aux armes, citoyens!
Adapted from Revolting! by Mick Hume, published by William Collins
Now, in the 21st century, such derogatory sentiments about ‘the people’ are dangerously back in fashion — ever since they dared vote for Brexit in Britain, and for Donald Trump in the United States.
Questions are being asked in high places about whether ordinary voters are fit to make decisions on major issues.
As a result, democracy — the cornerstone of our way of life — is being undermined, its very survival put at risk. Its modern enemies are mustering from all corners — but most worryingly from the Left, the very area where its stoutest defenders should be.
As a long-standing person of the Left, I fear that democratic freedoms are now in danger of being abandoned as elitists in our midst attempt to restrict them.
Every serious politician and thinker declares his or her belief in democracy. Yet, in practice, they seek to separate power from the people. The mantra has become ‘I’m a democrat, of course, but …’
Over Brexit, this profoundly insidious attitude was exemplified by John Major, former Tory prime minister, who denied the referendum result was binding and declared: ‘The tyranny of the majority has never applied in a democracy.’
Some of us might naively have imagined that majority rule was the very essence of democracy. But not, it seems, when millions vote against the wishes of a tiny political elite.
It was, of course, George Orwell in his 1945 novel Animal Farm, who described how ‘All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.’
Fast-forward to today and we find many Remainers similarly convinced that anyone who voted to leave the EU is too stupid to have the vote. The response was the same in America when voters failed to elect Hillary Clinton.
Trump’s victory, one U.S. professor declared, was ‘the dance of the dunces’, the result of ‘uneducated, low-information white people’ being given the vote. He added: ‘Democracy is supposed to enact the will of the people. But what if the people have no clue what they’re doing?’
The fury against the 17.4 million UK voters who dared to back Brexit — and the 62 million Americans who had the temerity to vote for Trump — brings frightening anti-democratic poisons bubbling to the surface of our societies.
The sheer bile that erupted from political and cultural elites in Britain after the Brexit vote revealed a deep-seated contempt for the people and for democracy. The Establishment reacted as if the ground had disappeared from beneath their feet. How could this have happened?
After all, the Remain campaign had marshalled every authority in the Western world to warn that a Leave vote would lead to economic ruination, a descent into barbarism, world war and, worse, falling house prices.
The people had been told to vote Remain by leaders of all Britain’s mainstream political parties, the governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of Germany, the then President of the U.S., and every celebrity from David Beckham to Johnny Rotten.
Yet a majority of voters actually disobeyed!
In the eyes of the Establishment, the only possible explanation was that those millions were simply too ignorant, uneducated, gullible, bigoted or emotional to understand what they were being told.
What is curious is that those from the liberal and Left wings — the ones who claim to be most in favour of change in the UK — were most upset.
But instead of trying to understand, the response of many was to dismiss the result as merely a ‘howl of rage’ by voters who must have taken leave of their senses — and to find ways to block it. The Guardian paper, alleged voice of liberal Britain, produced an official post-referendum T-shirt that declares: ‘Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.’
Its columnist Polly Toynbee, grande dame of British liberalism, demanded that 231 Labour MPs — 70 per cent of whose constituencies voted for Brexit — must ‘save us’ from the referendum result. In the name of ‘democracy’, of course.
Such responses let slip the mask and revealed the ugly fact that this country’s political elite believes that matters of government are far too complex and sophisticated to let the governed decide.
For the record, I voted Leave with passion, but my attack is not aimed at the 16.1 million who voted to Remain. They made a rational choice, just as the Leavers did. The difference is that most Remainers now accept the result, unlike elitists such as Tony Blair or Richard Branson — or their poster girl Gina Miller, the City financier who led the court challenge, declaring that the revolting voters’ verdict ‘made her physically ill’.
The reaction from those on the Left was the same when the American electorate handed Trump the keys to the White House.
He had been denounced as a disgrace to U.S. politics not only by the political establishment and the media but also by alpha intellectuals Beyoncé and Jay-Z, Lady Gaga and Madonna, Jon Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen. How could Americans resist being dazzled by such a star-studded appeal, you might think?
Yet more than 62 million Americans did just that. They voted Trump in — to the consternation of every ‘liberal’ voice in the land. On campuses, students held protests and college authorities offered counselling and time off to ‘grieve’, as if they were victims of a tragic disaster.
Personally, I have no truck with the illiberal, free-speech-stomping, narrow-minded Trump. But what I don’t get is their astonishment and hysteria at what happened.
After the election, everybody suddenly started asking: ‘How could they vote for him?’
But it should not have been difficult to get a sense beforehand of the growing anger against the political elite among the voters Clinton branded ‘deplorables’.
It was just that nobody had ever bothered to ask those ‘deplorables’ what they thought. The underlying problem in the UK, the U.S. and other Western societies is that politics and public life have increasingly become the preserve of a self-regarding elite of officials, opinion formers, intellectuals and so-called experts. They treat ‘ordinary people’, the masses, as outside of politics and beyond the pale, their concerns marginalised and ignored.
The Brexit vote marked a revolt against the ‘enforced conformity’ preached by this elite. That it came as such a shock to them was a sign of how little contact they had with the real world. And still many of them don’t get it.
In the Left-wing New Statesman magazine, Professor Richard Dawkins, the leading evolutionary biologist and renowned humanist was unable to suppress his true feelings that the large slice of humanity who voted Leave were ‘stupid, ignorant people’. He protested that ‘it is unfair to thrust on to unqualified simpletons the responsibility to take historic decisions of great complexity and sophistication’.
Presumably such decisions would be better left to highly intellectual minds such as his own. Great atheist that he is, he appears to think the rest of us should have blind faith in people like him.
Meanwhile, the normally unflappable ‘leading man of the Left’, philosophy professor A.C. Grayling, wrote to every MP (apparently in the name of his students), demanding that they vote to ignore the result — which he said was driven by mere ‘demagoguery and sentiment’ — and remain in the European Union.
His extraordinary contention was that the majority of people are what he called ‘System One’ thinkers, who make decisions on impulse — and that what we need is to pay more heed to ‘System Two’ thinkers, who seek information, analyse it, and weigh arguments in order to come to decisions. People similar to him, presumably.
Thankfully, not all clever people took this anti-democratic line.
Wolf Hall author Hilary Mantel observed how: ‘As soon as the result was in, millions signed a petition to rub it out and do it again. The bien-pensants suggested the result was not binding, but advisory — an opinion they would hardly have offered had the vote gone the other way.’
Mantel compared the bitter Remain lobby to the ‘army of erasers’ she had encountered in Saudi Arabia, who dealt with things they didn’t like — pork, Israel, women’s equality — by simply removing mention of them from public life.
Interestingly, Mervyn King, the former governor of the Bank of England, observed that the disdain the Establishment showed for those worried about the EU had probably encouraged many to vote Leave — and attacked those who claimed ‘if you even contemplate voting for Brexit, you must be either ignorant, uneducated, stupid or racist.’
The emphasis of many critics of the referendum was on the ‘lies’ of the Leave campaign and how they had led gullible voters astray.
Yet research by the Electoral Reform Society leads to the opposite conclusion — that the majority declined to be swayed or bullied into submission.
They kept their eyes on the bigger issues and voted Leave because they wanted more control over their own lives, UK politics and the country’s borders.
Millions made the entirely rational calculation that these reasons were important enough to support Leave, even if the immediate economic impact was uncertain and might prove adverse. A fall in the pound could be a price worth paying for an increase in democracy and sovereignty.
Yet still their motives are impugned. One of the nastiest tricks of those who lost the referendum was to claim that those who voted for Brexit (and Trump) were racists and xenophobes. In which case their votes should be seen as morally illegitimate.
But the small-minded prejudices actually on display here were those of leading Remainers towards working-class voters.
The sad truth is that to the elite, such people are far more alien than suave Brussels bureaucrats.
Significantly, almost immediately after the referendum result, a new scare started over a reported spree of ‘hate crimes’ against immigrants in the UK. The political elite seized upon these allegations as proof that the Brexit vote had been a demonstration of British racism.
But does anybody seriously believe that 17.4 million UK voters backed Leave for racist motives?
The truth is that Britain today is a more tolerant and anti-racist society than ever before.
Yes, immigration was an important factor for many Leave voters. But it was far from the over-riding obsession it has been made out to be: a post-referendum poll found 34 per cent said immigration was their main concern but 53 per cent prioritised the ‘ability of Britain to make its own laws’.
The vast majority wanted EU migrants living and working in the UK to be allowed to stay.
Still the attempts went on to subvert the referendum result, with the intervention of the courts. First the Law Lords and then the Supreme Court saw fit to overrule the express wishes of 17.4 million Leave voters and tell the elected government it could not trigger Brexit without the permission of MPs and Lords in Parliament.
The same Parliament they had allowed to be overridden by Brussels for the previous 40 years.
Then there was the four-million-strong online petition calling on Parliament to hold another referendum that would require a larger margin of victory.
In similar vein was the letter signed by a thousand top lawyers, demanding that Parliament must decide (ie, vote for Remain). The QC behind this initiative explained: ‘In times of crisis people often turn to lawyers to ask them how we should behave in society.’
The arrogance of the notion that the opinions of 1,000 lawyers — whose fees are an affront to civilised society — could outweigh those of 17.4 million voters summed up the Remainers’ ‘some are more equal than others’ outlook.
Even now, the attempts continue to put Brexit back in its box, fuelled by a sense that too much democracy is dangerous.
The Brexit referendum vote opened up the opportunity for a new kind of political debate about the future of our society, engaging many who have previously felt excluded from public life.
Time and again, according to the Electoral Reform Society, its researchers heard people say the EU referendum was the first time their vote ‘had truly counted’. They decided for themselves what the truth was about the EU, and made their own choice in defiance of whatever was flung at them by the political class.
But the plain fact is that the elite in this country do not trust the mass of voters, believing we are too unintelligent, misinformed and emotional to make the right decisions on important issues.
Whichever side you took in June in the UK or November in the United States, we need to resist this with all our might.
The real issue should be to defend democratic principles against those who would tell us that some voters are more equal than others.
Aux armes, citoyens!
Adapted from Revolting! by Mick Hume, published by William Collins
The Devil, You Know- Forum Detective ????♀️
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:13 am
Never laughed so much in all my life
So Democracy is not undermined at all
Brexit and Trump being in power proves that
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:33 am
simple, closed minds are easily amused it would appear.Thorin wrote:
Never laughed so much in all my life
So Democracy is not undermined at all
Brexit and Trump being in power proves that
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:42 am
The Devil, You Know wrote:simple, closed minds are easily amused it would appear.Thorin wrote:
Never laughed so much in all my life
So Democracy is not undermined at all
Brexit and Trump being in power proves that
Wow yet another immature reply from Deeano when he cannot counter back
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:53 am
I dont need to counter back, you simply prove my point again and again.Thorin wrote:The Devil, You Know wrote:
simple, closed minds are easily amused it would appear.
Wow yet another immature reply from Deeano when he cannot counter back
my point is in agreement with the left wing viewpoint taken by the writer of the article.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:54 am
The Devil, You Know wrote:I dont need to counter back, you simply prove my point again and again.Thorin wrote:
Wow yet another immature reply from Deeano when he cannot counter back
my point is in agreement with the left wing viewpoint taken by the writer of the article.
The view point was idiotic at best, based on the views of what some Politicians have said, not anything in policies or practice
Hence which makes you an idiot as well
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by The Devil, You Know Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:02 pm
so you agree that left wingers are idiotic?Thorin wrote:The Devil, You Know wrote:
I dont need to counter back, you simply prove my point again and again.
my point is in agreement with the left wing viewpoint taken by the writer of the article.
The view point was idiotic at best, based on the views of what some Politicians have said, not anything in policies or practice
Hence which makes you an idiot as well
in this case I think this one has described remainiacs and anti trumpers to a tee, but you cannot see it as you are those very things and your personal magic mirror filters out your many flaws I suppose.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:05 pm
The Devil, You Know wrote:so you agree that left wingers are idiotic?Thorin wrote:
The view point was idiotic at best, based on the views of what some Politicians have said, not anything in policies or practice
Hence which makes you an idiot as well
in this case I think this one has described remainiacs and anti trumpers to a tee, but you cannot see it as you are those very things and your personal magic mirror filters out your many flaws I suppose.
1) Some are idiots, some are not idiots, again fallacy argument, guilt by association
2) How has he described anyone. Did you for the 8 years of Obama being in power whinge and moan like a child having a tantrum, in the hope he would be removed from office? Just like most Trump supporters, where they claims things like he was a Muslim, not an American citizen etc
The answer is yes
That makes you a blatant hypocrite and again is hilarious
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by 'Wolfie Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:16 pm
The Devil, You Know wrote:simple, closed minds are easily amused it would appear.Thorin wrote:
Never laughed so much in all my life
So Democracy is not undermined at all
Brexit and Trump being in power proves that
So says DYKbrain_deano....
The most closed-minded and clueless twat on NewsFix...
The rubbish in the O/P is some of the most idiotic guff you have posted here yet, TDYK..
Wrote that book yourself, did you !?!
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:53 pm
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:The Devil, You Know wrote:
simple, closed minds are easily amused it would appear.
So says DYKbrain_deano....
The most closed-minded and clueless twat on NewsFix...
The rubbish in the O/P is some of the most idiotic guff you have posted here yet, TDYK..
Wrote that book yourself, did you !?!
It was written by author and journalist Mick Hume who happens to be Left Wing -very Left Wing.
He is drawing attention to what is becoming a very unhealthy trend among the political elite in this country: Seriously questioning whether Joe Public is qualified, or even should be allowed, to question the decisions which are being made by the "great and the good" and which have an impact on even the minutiae of our lives.
The EU referendum in effect rejected the practice of governance by diktat by an unelected commission of bureaucrats in Brussels, a system that was enthusiastically supported by many of our leading politicians including, prominently, those who have benefited, are still benefiting or who had hopes of benefiting from EU largesse.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:10 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
So says DYKbrain_deano....
The most closed-minded and clueless twat on NewsFix...
The rubbish in the O/P is some of the most idiotic guff you have posted here yet, TDYK..
Wrote that book yourself, did you !?!
It was written by author and journalist Mick Hume who happens to be Left Wing -very Left Wing.
He is drawing attention to what is becoming a very unhealthy trend among the political elite in this country: Seriously questioning whether Joe Public is qualified, or even should be allowed, to question the decisions which are being made by the "great and the good" and which have an impact on even the minutiae of our lives.
The EU referendum in effect rejected the practice of governance by diktat by an unelected commission of bureaucrats in Brussels, a system that was enthusiastically supported by many of our leading politicians including, prominently, those who have benefited, are still benefiting or who had hopes of benefiting from EU largesse.
It does not matter whether he is very left wing or not.
The claims made that democracy is being undermined were a complete fallacy.
The EU as we have debated before is more democratic than the British system of Government.
You choose to disagree on on this, which is your choice.
What I find absurd here, is the view the article is basically claiming is that people accept a decision and not look to challenge this. As if that decisions is final. Nothing is final and is for ever changing. Hence why in a democratic system, we have the chance to elect a new Government every 4-5 years.
The very fact is that everyone has a right to challenge and seek change, no matter who has been elected. We see it all the time no matter who is in power. Hence the article is driven by emotions and not any reason.
When you think about it, only 38% of those eligible to vote in the referendum voted to leave. Hardly a majority, do you not think? On something that has the potential of either being good for the UK or a disaster. Even worse in the US a President has won the national vote with less votes than their opposition, conflicting with true democratic values. So its no surprise people are annoyed at this. Even more when the person elected is a con artist.
The only point he states that has any validity, is the poor venom being cast towards people who voted for Trump and Brexit, but you do not see me do that to you or others who voted for Brexit. I respect you as an individual and respect your choices. That however does not stop me or should stop me from seeking to want to have this decision reversed. Either through the next general election being fought over this. Hence why nothing is finite. Or through another Referendum. Scotland lost its referendum, and they are fighting to have another one. Has anyone argued that they should not?
Nobody should suffer abuse for why they voted, but nobody has to also accept a decision, when it can place their livelihood at possible risk. There is also nothing wrong with being openly critical to the choices people make when voted. Abuse to them is wrong, but criticism is not wrong. Now Mick Hume claims to be a great advocate of Free Speech and yet seems to be wanting to stifle it here and that people should just accept what could possible damage their future. The idea of Democracy is it can allow for the ability to change past mistakes.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Raggamuffin Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:18 pm
The people had been told to vote Remain by leaders of all Britain’s mainstream political parties, the governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of Germany, the then President of the U.S., and every celebrity from David Beckham to Johnny Rotten.
Perhaps that's why so many people voted to leave.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:16 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:The people had been told to vote Remain by leaders of all Britain’s mainstream political parties, the governor of the Bank of England, the Chancellor of Germany, the then President of the U.S., and every celebrity from David Beckham to Johnny Rotten.
Perhaps that's why so many people voted to leave.
If the likes of David Beckham and Johnny Rotten told me what to do, my natural reaction would be to do exactly the opposite.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Ben Reilly Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:21 pm
Um, the Trump election is the exact definition of tyranny of the minority ...
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:38 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Perhaps that's why so many people voted to leave.
If the likes of David Beckham and Johnny Rotten told me what to do, my natural reaction would be to do exactly the opposite.
That is poor advise Fred
So you are saying for example if David Beckham offered (hypothetically) to teach your grandson football, you would do the opposite?
Or (hypothetically) your grandson forming a music band. Where Johnny Rotten offers his service to guide them to success in the music industry?
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:40 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
It was written by author and journalist Mick Hume who happens to be Left Wing -very Left Wing.
He is drawing attention to what is becoming a very unhealthy trend among the political elite in this country: Seriously questioning whether Joe Public is qualified, or even should be allowed, to question the decisions which are being made by the "great and the good" and which have an impact on even the minutiae of our lives.
The EU referendum in effect rejected the practice of governance by diktat by an unelected commission of bureaucrats in Brussels, a system that was enthusiastically supported by many of our leading politicians including, prominently, those who have benefited, are still benefiting or who had hopes of benefiting from EU largesse.
It does not matter whether he is very left wing or not.
The claims made that democracy is being undermined were a complete fallacy.
The EU as we have debated before is more democratic than the British system of Government.
You choose to disagree on on this, which is your choice.
What I find absurd here, is the view the article is basically claiming is that people accept a decision and not look to challenge this. As if that decisions is final. Nothing is final and is for ever changing. Hence why in a democratic system, we have the chance to elect a new Government every 4-5 years.
The very fact is that everyone has a right to challenge and seek change, no matter who has been elected. We see it all the time no matter who is in power. Hence the article is driven by emotions and not any reason.
When you think about it, only 38% of those eligible to vote in the referendum voted to leave. Hardly a majority, do you not think? On something that has the potential of either being good for the UK or a disaster. Even worse in the US a President has won the national vote with less votes than their opposition, conflicting with true democratic values. So its no surprise people are annoyed at this. Even more when the person elected is a con artist.
The only point he states that has any validity, is the poor venom being cast towards people who voted for Trump and Brexit, but you do not see me do that to you or others who voted for Brexit. I respect you as an individual and respect your choices. That however does not stop me or should stop me from seeking to want to have this decision reversed. Either through the next general election being fought over this. Hence why nothing is finite. Or through another Referendum. Scotland lost its referendum, and they are fighting to have another one. Has anyone argued that they should not?
Nobody should suffer abuse for why they voted, but nobody has to also accept a decision, when it can place their livelihood at possible risk. There is also nothing wrong with being openly critical to the choices people make when voted. Abuse to them is wrong, but criticism is not wrong. Now Mick Hume claims to be a great advocate of Free Speech and yet seems to be wanting to stifle it here and that people should just accept what could possible damage their future. The idea of Democracy is it can allow for the ability to change past mistakes.
I simply mentioned Hume's political leaning as a point of interest in case his fellow Left wing supporter Wolfie was under the impression that the article was written by someone from the far Right. He did, after all, refer to it as guff.
Yes, we have debated this subject before and no, we have not established that the EU is a democratic organisation; you are of the opinion that it is, but I am equally of the opinion that it most definitely is not.
We are not going to agree, and it is pointless re-arguing the issue.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:49 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
If the likes of David Beckham and Johnny Rotten told me what to do, my natural reaction would be to do exactly the opposite.
That is poor advise Fred
So you are saying for example if David Beckham offered (hypothetically) to teach your grandson football, you would do the opposite?
Or (hypothetically) your grandson forming a music band. Where Johnny Rotten offers his service to guide them to success in the music industry?
We were, actually, discussing specifically the EU referendum vote and the predilection of so-called celebrities to lecture the rest of us on what they clearly regard as the flawed choice of those who voted for Brexit.
Since I absolutely loathe football, and pop music even, moreso, I would hesitate to counsel my grandson to have anything whatsoever to do with those two characters. Hypothetically, of course.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Ben Reilly Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:51 pm
Ben Reilly wrote:Um, the Trump election is the exact definition of tyranny of the minority ...
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:52 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
That is poor advise Fred
So you are saying for example if David Beckham offered (hypothetically) to teach your grandson football, you would do the opposite?
Or (hypothetically) your grandson forming a music band. Where Johnny Rotten offers his service to guide them to success in the music industry?
We were, actually, discussing specifically the EU referendum vote and the predilection of so-called celebrities to lecture the rest of us on what they clearly regard as the flawed choice of those who voted for Brexit.
Since I absolutely loathe football, and pop music even, moreso, I would hesitate to counsel my grandson to have anything whatsoever to do with those two characters. Hypothetically, of course.
Look Fred, you know my point is sound over the fear professed claiming undemocratic. I agree on the poor hate expressed to voters, that is it
What if he loved both music and football hypothetically though Fred?
Would not their council on the matter be that much more valuable to you?
Surely you would encourage him, no matter these choices?
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Tommy Monk Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:17 pm
It is up to the electorate to decide...
Demos kratos
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Raggamuffin Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:26 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
If the likes of David Beckham and Johnny Rotten told me what to do, my natural reaction would be to do exactly the opposite.
That is poor advise Fred
So you are saying for example if David Beckham offered (hypothetically) to teach your grandson football, you would do the opposite?
Or (hypothetically) your grandson forming a music band. Where Johnny Rotten offers his service to guide them to success in the music industry?
That's different because those are their areas of expertise - allegedly. Celebrities telling people what to do re politics is a completely different matter.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Ben Reilly Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:37 pm
Ben Reilly wrote:Ben Reilly wrote:Um, the Trump election is the exact definition of tyranny of the minority ...
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Eilzel Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:05 am
To echo Ben's words. In every sense, Trump was voted in by a minority against the will of the majority. A broken system (that he hated not long ago) is why he is now President.
In defense of Dawkins; he even mentioned in the past that he himself is not ideally placed to vote on the EU. Since politics is not his expertise, nor most people's. it wasn't him looking down on people. For that reason he opposed the referendum completely. And he had a point. That is before even mentioning the misinformation and outright lies of the Leave camp.
As for voters being informed. Well it's inevitable some are less informed than others. If your only news source is the Sun or Mail or Facebook you are hardly qualified in such matters. And a decision of that scale requires better imo. Every outlook on Brexit is bleak. As Leavers predicted. It isn't looking like an intelligent decision is it?
In defense of Dawkins; he even mentioned in the past that he himself is not ideally placed to vote on the EU. Since politics is not his expertise, nor most people's. it wasn't him looking down on people. For that reason he opposed the referendum completely. And he had a point. That is before even mentioning the misinformation and outright lies of the Leave camp.
As for voters being informed. Well it's inevitable some are less informed than others. If your only news source is the Sun or Mail or Facebook you are hardly qualified in such matters. And a decision of that scale requires better imo. Every outlook on Brexit is bleak. As Leavers predicted. It isn't looking like an intelligent decision is it?
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by veya_victaous Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:34 am
TO be fair we are finding the same issues as the roman republic any why they ending up creating the emperor.
Too many uneducated hicks that can be whipped into a frenzy by an enterprising demagogue..
But as the roman and pretty much every other empire has shown, Homo sapiens in generally are too corruptible
Time to entrust our Political and economic system to the machines. We mere monkeys cannot run it efficiently or effectively. From the moronic lies that are just a crime against logic that fools believe (like brexiters and trumpsters) to the self serving gluttony of inevitable professional politician.
Although those fools give me hope, we only have to convince them to vote a 'cybernetic emperor' in once.
Too many uneducated hicks that can be whipped into a frenzy by an enterprising demagogue..
But as the roman and pretty much every other empire has shown, Homo sapiens in generally are too corruptible
Time to entrust our Political and economic system to the machines. We mere monkeys cannot run it efficiently or effectively. From the moronic lies that are just a crime against logic that fools believe (like brexiters and trumpsters) to the self serving gluttony of inevitable professional politician.
Although those fools give me hope, we only have to convince them to vote a 'cybernetic emperor' in once.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 am
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
We were, actually, discussing specifically the EU referendum vote and the predilection of so-called celebrities to lecture the rest of us on what they clearly regard as the flawed choice of those who voted for Brexit.
Since I absolutely loathe football, and pop music even, moreso, I would hesitate to counsel my grandson to have anything whatsoever to do with those two characters. Hypothetically, of course.
Look Fred, you know my point is sound over the fear professed claiming undemocratic. I agree on the poor hate expressed to voters, that is it
What if he loved both music and football hypothetically though Fred?
Would not their council on the matter be that much more valuable to you?
Surely you would encourage him, no matter these choices?
My referendum vote was based on what I actually know about the workings of the EU and its institutions and not simply on what I have read or heard.
I have the advantage of having visited Brussels at least a dozen times as part of my work and having officially met dozens of MEPs, civil servants and a couple of Commissioners. I do not regret my vote. I am not changing my mind. I do not seek to change yours or, indeed, anyone else's.
As to David Beckham and Johnny Rotten, I would not care for either of those particular characters to be mentors of my grandson, regardless of their skills.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:45 am
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
Look Fred, you know my point is sound over the fear professed claiming undemocratic. I agree on the poor hate expressed to voters, that is it
What if he loved both music and football hypothetically though Fred?
Would not their council on the matter be that much more valuable to you?
Surely you would encourage him, no matter these choices?
My referendum vote was based on what I actually know about the workings of the EU and its institutions and not simply on what I have read or heard.
I have the advantage of having visited Brussels at least a dozen times as part of my work and having officially met dozens of MEPs, civil servants and a couple of Commissioners. I do not regret my vote. I am not changing my mind. I do not seek to change yours or, indeed, anyone else's.
As to David Beckham and Johnny Rotten, I would not care for either of those particular characters to be mentors of my grandson, regardless of their skills.
Only time will tell whether you end up regretting your vote, if things go tits up. Well the EU does require amendments, but leaving is going to greatly weaken this nation. This nation is relatively small and as combined with other nations makes it strong in defense of aggressive nations like the Russians.
No matter what I thought of someone, I would never deny them a chance to teach children, as they are better placed to teach in these fields. What I feel about someone is irrelevant to the happiness of my children, when they would be of great help to things they love to do.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 am
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
My referendum vote was based on what I actually know about the workings of the EU and its institutions and not simply on what I have read or heard.
I have the advantage of having visited Brussels at least a dozen times as part of my work and having officially met dozens of MEPs, civil servants and a couple of Commissioners. I do not regret my vote. I am not changing my mind. I do not seek to change yours or, indeed, anyone else's.
As to David Beckham and Johnny Rotten, I would not care for either of those particular characters to be mentors of my grandson, regardless of their skills.
Only time will tell whether you end up regretting your vote, if things go tits up. Well the EU does require amendments, but leaving is going to greatly weaken this nation. This nation is relatively small and as combined with other nations makes it strong in defense of aggressive nations like the Russians.
No matter what I thought of someone, I would never deny them a chance to teach children, as they are better placed to teach in these fields. What I feel about someone is irrelevant to the happiness of my children, when they would be of great help to things they love to do.
One of the most infuriating things I find with "remainers" is that they constantly "talk down" this country with a daily catalogue of doom, gloom and predictions of chaos and collapse.
Just what is it that you people want? A self-fulfilling prophecy?
The actual prognosis for the UK seems, to me, to be a pretty good one given the difficult global conditions at this time. And yet all we get from the referendum's minority losers is a constant display of hand-wringing histrionics that would put the doom-mongering soothsayer in Frankie Howerd's wonderful TV series Up Pompeii to shame. "Woe, woe and thrice woe!"
The EU wants more than "amendments"...it wants complete resuscitation. It was sold to the citizens of the early member nations as a trading bloc, but it has developed, and continues to develop, into a defacto United States of Europe. By stealth.
What the hell else do you think the unelected collective dictatorship of bureaucrats, aka the Commission, mean by "ever closer union"?
Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum?
And as for some of the other European "statesmen", his utterly ridiculous predecessor, Van Pumpernickel or some such moniker, and the former so-called High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs - a dopey bird who had previous experience of running a hospital trust, or something like that...words bloody well fail me.
And as for the quality of some of the Commissioners who have represented this country: Peter "Lord" Mandelson...a politician of such high esteem that he had to resign in disgrace from government office on more than one occasion because of shady dealings.
Or that splendid specimen of a failed party leader Neil "we're awright" Kinnock, aka the Welsh windbag who claimed victory after a general election at the very time a minion was desperately trying to give him the news that he had, er, lost, and whose greatest "achievement" as a European Commissioner was promptly to sack one of the official auditors who drew the public's attention to the mind-blowing scale of fraud, corruption and self-service that was going on in the Brussels corridors of power?
And you talk to me about "regretting my choice" when I was eventually given an opportunity of having my say about it all?
You must be joking.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:35 am
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Perhaps that's why so many people voted to leave.
If the likes of David Beckham and Johnny Rotten told me what to do, my natural reaction would be to do exactly the opposite.
I agree with that I mean David Beckham Johnny Rotten ??? My goodness such intelligence there
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:39 am
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
Only time will tell whether you end up regretting your vote, if things go tits up. Well the EU does require amendments, but leaving is going to greatly weaken this nation. This nation is relatively small and as combined with other nations makes it strong in defense of aggressive nations like the Russians.
No matter what I thought of someone, I would never deny them a chance to teach children, as they are better placed to teach in these fields. What I feel about someone is irrelevant to the happiness of my children, when they would be of great help to things they love to do.
One of the most infuriating things I find with "remainers" is that they constantly "talk down" this country with a daily catalogue of doom, gloom and predictions of chaos and collapse.
Just what is it that you people want? A self-fulfilling prophecy?
The actual prognosis for the UK seems, to me, to be a pretty good one given the difficult global conditions at this time. And yet all we get from the referendum's minority losers is a constant display of hand-wringing histrionics that would put the doom-mongering soothsayer in Frankie Howerd's wonderful TV series Up Pompeii to shame. "Woe, woe and thrice woe!"
The EU wants more than "amendments"...it wants complete resuscitation. It was sold to the citizens of the early member nations as a trading bloc, but it has developed, and continues to develop, into a defacto United States of Europe. By stealth.
What the hell else do you think the unelected collective dictatorship of bureaucrats, aka the Commission, mean by "ever closer union"?
Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum?
And as for some of the other European "statesmen", his utterly ridiculous predecessor, Van Pumpernickel or some such moniker, and the former so-called High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs - a dopey bird who had previous experience of running a hospital trust, or something like that...words bloody well fail me.
And as for the quality of some of the Commissioners who have represented this country: Peter "Lord" Mandelson...a politician of such high esteem that he had to resign in disgrace from government office on more than one occasion because of shady dealings.
Or that splendid specimen of a failed party leader Neil "we're awright" Kinnock, aka the Welsh windbag who claimed victory after a general election at the very time a minion was desperately trying to give him the news that he had, er, lost, and whose greatest "achievement" as a European Commissioner was promptly to sack one of the official auditors who drew the public's attention to the mind-blowing scale of fraud, corruption and self-service that was going on in the Brussels corridors of power?
And you talk to me about "regretting my choice" when I was eventually given an opportunity of having my say about it all?
You must be joking.
Herman Van Rompuy?
Nigel Farage insulted him and asked him "who are you?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:24 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
One of the most infuriating things I find with "remainers" is that they constantly "talk down" this country with a daily catalogue of doom, gloom and predictions of chaos and collapse.
Just what is it that you people want? A self-fulfilling prophecy?
The actual prognosis for the UK seems, to me, to be a pretty good one given the difficult global conditions at this time. And yet all we get from the referendum's minority losers is a constant display of hand-wringing histrionics that would put the doom-mongering soothsayer in Frankie Howerd's wonderful TV series Up Pompeii to shame. "Woe, woe and thrice woe!"
The EU wants more than "amendments"...it wants complete resuscitation. It was sold to the citizens of the early member nations as a trading bloc, but it has developed, and continues to develop, into a defacto United States of Europe. By stealth.
What the hell else do you think the unelected collective dictatorship of bureaucrats, aka the Commission, mean by "ever closer union"?
Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum?
And as for some of the other European "statesmen", his utterly ridiculous predecessor, Van Pumpernickel or some such moniker, and the former so-called High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs - a dopey bird who had previous experience of running a hospital trust, or something like that...words bloody well fail me.
And as for the quality of some of the Commissioners who have represented this country: Peter "Lord" Mandelson...a politician of such high esteem that he had to resign in disgrace from government office on more than one occasion because of shady dealings.
Or that splendid specimen of a failed party leader Neil "we're awright" Kinnock, aka the Welsh windbag who claimed victory after a general election at the very time a minion was desperately trying to give him the news that he had, er, lost, and whose greatest "achievement" as a European Commissioner was promptly to sack one of the official auditors who drew the public's attention to the mind-blowing scale of fraud, corruption and self-service that was going on in the Brussels corridors of power?
And you talk to me about "regretting my choice" when I was eventually given an opportunity of having my say about it all?
You must be joking.
Herman Van Rompuy?
Nigel Farage insulted him and asked him "who are you?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY
I must confess that when I first saw that, my first impression was "this bloke is speaking up for me."
Van Rumpypumpy's face was a sight to behold!
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:49 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Herman Van Rompuy?
Nigel Farage insulted him and asked him "who are you?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY
I must confess that when I first saw that, my first impression was "this bloke is speaking up for me."
Van Rumpypumpy's face was a sight to behold!
Mr Farage was very rude, but I must admit I did laugh at that little speech. I wonder what the Belgians thought of him saying that Belgium is "pretty much a non-country".
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:58 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
Only time will tell whether you end up regretting your vote, if things go tits up. Well the EU does require amendments, but leaving is going to greatly weaken this nation. This nation is relatively small and as combined with other nations makes it strong in defense of aggressive nations like the Russians.
No matter what I thought of someone, I would never deny them a chance to teach children, as they are better placed to teach in these fields. What I feel about someone is irrelevant to the happiness of my children, when they would be of great help to things they love to do.
One of the most infuriating things I find with "remainers" is that they constantly "talk down" this country with a daily catalogue of doom, gloom and predictions of chaos and collapse.
Just what is it that you people want? A self-fulfilling prophecy?
The actual prognosis for the UK seems, to me, to be a pretty good one given the difficult global conditions at this time. And yet all we get from the referendum's minority losers is a constant display of hand-wringing histrionics that would put the doom-mongering soothsayer in Frankie Howerd's wonderful TV series Up Pompeii to shame. "Woe, woe and thrice woe!"
The EU wants more than "amendments"...it wants complete resuscitation. It was sold to the citizens of the early member nations as a trading bloc, but it has developed, and continues to develop, into a defacto United States of Europe. By stealth.
What the hell else do you think the unelected collective dictatorship of bureaucrats, aka the Commission, mean by "ever closer union"?
Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum?
And as for some of the other European "statesmen", his utterly ridiculous predecessor, Van Pumpernickel or some such moniker, and the former so-called High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs - a dopey bird who had previous experience of running a hospital trust, or something like that...words bloody well fail me.
And as for the quality of some of the Commissioners who have represented this country: Peter "Lord" Mandelson...a politician of such high esteem that he had to resign in disgrace from government office on more than one occasion because of shady dealings.
Or that splendid specimen of a failed party leader Neil "we're awright" Kinnock, aka the Welsh windbag who claimed victory after a general election at the very time a minion was desperately trying to give him the news that he had, er, lost, and whose greatest "achievement" as a European Commissioner was promptly to sack one of the official auditors who drew the public's attention to the mind-blowing scale of fraud, corruption and self-service that was going on in the Brussels corridors of power?
And you talk to me about "regretting my choice" when I was eventually given an opportunity of having my say about it all?
You must be joking.
1) How is it doom and gloom over rightly be concerned that this nation defense and security wise will vastly become weaker? Its a fact, yet you want to brush this issue under the carpet. So explain to me how the pitiful size of the British army, which struggles to recruit is going to be able to secure this nation compared to the EU army?
2) What do I want? A future that has the economy, security and defense of this country in safe hands.
3) Really the predictions are a good one, based off what facts, when nobody can predict anything, as we are walking into new territory. You seem to have confidence its going to work great, but vilify anyone who holds genuine concerns over the future and that they are wrong to do so. Even now you are not addressing any concerns but moaning at the people rightly asking you to address these issues.
4) The EU is far more Democratic than this nation, which rides on an antiquated relic of the Empire, Nationalism. Its an absurd view point, that a small nation thinks it can work on its own, when we live in a global climate. The whole Brexit vote was one voted on with emotions by the leavers. This has been backed up by the studies made on those who voted. I mean you seem to fail to grape something found in nature. That societies run best in numbers and not in isolation. Do you know how many societies have stagnated in isolation?
5) Here we go again with the commissions, who cannot pass any laws, a pathetically immature point from you often peddled by the leavers. Do MEP's vote on legislation?
Take your time
6) Ah so we are back to snobbery and elitism, that now someone to you is not worthy to be the President of a system if they come from a country you demean by classing as micky mouse. Bordering on racism there chum. What you are claiming is that they are unfit and inferior to run such a system, solely based on from where they were born, not their abilities.
7) Its up to you what you think of EU former Presidents, but is the track record here any better? You seem to whitewash this, when we have been led in this country for decades by liars. A double standard by you and a fallacy argument.
As to the rest is just your views of people and you bitching about them and you have the cheek to say my views are doom and gloom?Like I said leavers are born from the school of emotions, not reason. They have mot worked out the path for the future, as it was themselves born from fear of the EU, immigration, border controls, laws etc as to why they voted leave. They were fed a daily diet of fear off the EU. Which in all the laws we have made from EU policies, only 4% have we been against. We now go into uncharted territory and you have the balls to attempt to shut down any discussion, by claiming those genuinely concerned are all doom and gloom, even though the complete leave campaign was based off doom and gloom
So your post was about as irrelevant and reassuring to millions of genuine concerned people here, over the future of this country. You failed to reassure them on anything.
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:47 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
One of the most infuriating things I find with "remainers" is that they constantly "talk down" this country with a daily catalogue of doom, gloom and predictions of chaos and collapse.
Just what is it that you people want? A self-fulfilling prophecy?
The actual prognosis for the UK seems, to me, to be a pretty good one given the difficult global conditions at this time. And yet all we get from the referendum's minority losers is a constant display of hand-wringing histrionics that would put the doom-mongering soothsayer in Frankie Howerd's wonderful TV series Up Pompeii to shame. "Woe, woe and thrice woe!"
The EU wants more than "amendments"...it wants complete resuscitation. It was sold to the citizens of the early member nations as a trading bloc, but it has developed, and continues to develop, into a defacto United States of Europe. By stealth.
What the hell else do you think the unelected collective dictatorship of bureaucrats, aka the Commission, mean by "ever closer union"?
Why do you think that the present wannabe President of the US o E - a politician of such high world status that he was formerly Prime Minister of a Micky Mouse state with an economy about half that of Birmingham - is desperate for Brussels control of all member economies, tax regimes, armed forces, etc., etc., ad nauseam and ad infinitum?
And as for some of the other European "statesmen", his utterly ridiculous predecessor, Van Pumpernickel or some such moniker, and the former so-called High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs - a dopey bird who had previous experience of running a hospital trust, or something like that...words bloody well fail me.
And as for the quality of some of the Commissioners who have represented this country: Peter "Lord" Mandelson...a politician of such high esteem that he had to resign in disgrace from government office on more than one occasion because of shady dealings.
Or that splendid specimen of a failed party leader Neil "we're awright" Kinnock, aka the Welsh windbag who claimed victory after a general election at the very time a minion was desperately trying to give him the news that he had, er, lost, and whose greatest "achievement" as a European Commissioner was promptly to sack one of the official auditors who drew the public's attention to the mind-blowing scale of fraud, corruption and self-service that was going on in the Brussels corridors of power?
And you talk to me about "regretting my choice" when I was eventually given an opportunity of having my say about it all?
You must be joking.
1) How is it doom and gloom over rightly be concerned that this nation defense and security wise will vastly become weaker? Its a fact, yet you want to brush this issue under the carpet. So explain to me how the pitiful size of the British army, which struggles to recruit is going to be able to secure this nation compared to the EU army?
2) What do I want? A future that has the economy, security and defense of this country in safe hands.
3) Really the predictions are a good one, based off what facts, when nobody can predict anything, as we are walking into new territory. You seem to have confidence its going to work great, but vilify anyone who holds genuine concerns over the future and that they are wrong to do so. Even now you are not addressing any concerns but moaning at the people rightly asking you to address these issues.
4) The EU is far more Democratic than this nation, which rides on an antiquated relic of the Empire, Nationalism. Its an absurd view point, that a small nation thinks it can work on its own, when we live in a global climate. The whole Brexit vote was one voted on with emotions by the leavers. This has been backed up by the studies made on those who voted. I mean you seem to fail to grape something found in nature. That societies run best in numbers and not in isolation. Do you know how many societies have stagnated in isolation?
5) Here we go again with the commissions, who cannot pass any laws, a pathetically immature point from you often peddled by the leavers. Do MEP's vote on legislation?
Take your time
6) Ah so we are back to snobbery and elitism, that now someone to you is not worthy to be the President of a system if they come from a country you demean by classing as micky mouse. Bordering on racism there chum. What you are claiming is that they are unfit and inferior to run such a system, solely based on from where they were born, not their abilities.
7) Its up to you what you think of EU former Presidents, but is the track record here any better? You seem to whitewash this, when we have been led in this country for decades by liars. A double standard by you and a fallacy argument.
Like I said leavers are born from the school of emotions, not reason. They have mot worked out the path for the future, as it was themselves born from fear of the EU, immigration, border controls, laws etc as to why they voted leave. They were fed a daily diet of fear off the EU. Which in all the laws we have made from EU policies, only 4% have we been against. We now go into uncharted territory and you have the balls to attempt to shut down any discussion, by claiming those genuinely concerned are all doom and gloom, even though the complete leave campaign was based off doom and gloom
So your post was about as irrelevant and reassuring to millions of genuine concerned people here, over the future of this country. You failed to reassure them on anything.
And here [b]you go again with your usual squeals of "snobbery", "elitism" and "racism" as soon as you are confronted by an opinion and an argument that runs contrary to your own views and to the contents of your choice of cut-and-pasted source material.
You do not hold a monopoly in this forum so far as knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence are concerned, even if you have convinced yourself that you do.
The majority vote was for the UK to leave the European Union. Get over it.
If you wish to lend your support to those politicians who seem determined to thwart the will of the majority of electors by implying that ordinary people are not qualified to choose their own destiny, then at least have the guts to admit it, together with your own demonstrable "snobbery and elitism."
If you wish to continue to "talk down" the country, its economy and institutions while others show a determination to make a success of them in a challenging and changing world, then do so if you must.
Fred Moletrousers- MABEL, THE GREAT ZOG
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:59 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
1) How is it doom and gloom over rightly be concerned that this nation defense and security wise will vastly become weaker? Its a fact, yet you want to brush this issue under the carpet. So explain to me how the pitiful size of the British army, which struggles to recruit is going to be able to secure this nation compared to the EU army?
2) What do I want? A future that has the economy, security and defense of this country in safe hands.
3) Really the predictions are a good one, based off what facts, when nobody can predict anything, as we are walking into new territory. You seem to have confidence its going to work great, but vilify anyone who holds genuine concerns over the future and that they are wrong to do so. Even now you are not addressing any concerns but moaning at the people rightly asking you to address these issues.
4) The EU is far more Democratic than this nation, which rides on an antiquated relic of the Empire, Nationalism. Its an absurd view point, that a small nation thinks it can work on its own, when we live in a global climate. The whole Brexit vote was one voted on with emotions by the leavers. This has been backed up by the studies made on those who voted. I mean you seem to fail to grape something found in nature. That societies run best in numbers and not in isolation. Do you know how many societies have stagnated in isolation?
5) Here we go again with the commissions, who cannot pass any laws, a pathetically immature point from you often peddled by the leavers. Do MEP's vote on legislation?
Take your time
6) Ah so we are back to snobbery and elitism, that now someone to you is not worthy to be the President of a system if they come from a country you demean by classing as micky mouse. Bordering on racism there chum. What you are claiming is that they are unfit and inferior to run such a system, solely based on from where they were born, not their abilities.
7) Its up to you what you think of EU former Presidents, but is the track record here any better? You seem to whitewash this, when we have been led in this country for decades by liars. A double standard by you and a fallacy argument.
Like I said leavers are born from the school of emotions, not reason. They have mot worked out the path for the future, as it was themselves born from fear of the EU, immigration, border controls, laws etc as to why they voted leave. They were fed a daily diet of fear off the EU. Which in all the laws we have made from EU policies, only 4% have we been against. We now go into uncharted territory and you have the balls to attempt to shut down any discussion, by claiming those genuinely concerned are all doom and gloom, even though the complete leave campaign was based off doom and gloom
So your post was about as irrelevant and reassuring to millions of genuine concerned people here, over the future of this country. You failed to reassure them on anything.
And here you go again with your usual squeals of "snobbery", "elitism" and "racism" as soon as you are confronted by an opinion and an argument that runs contrary to your own views and to the contents of your choice of cut-and-pasted source material.
You do not hold a monopoly in this forum so far as knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence are concerned, even if you have convinced yourself that you do.
The majority vote was for the UK to leave the European Union. Get over it.
If you wish to lend your support to those politicians who seem determined to thwart the will of the majority of electors by implying that ordinary people are not qualified to choose their own destiny, then at least have the guts to admit it, together with your own demonstrable "snobbery and elitism."
If you wish to continue to "talk down" the country, its economy and institutions while others show a determination to make a success of them in a challenging and changing world, then do so if you must.
1) Did you or did you not demean the ability of a former President based on the state they came from?
The answer is yes. That means you were using a very poor and quite immature argument grounded in racism. As its based on a people from that state and not their ability.
2) Second it was complete snobbery and elitism, based off a the racism view point, that because someone is from a small state, they are not capable of running a much bigger system.
3) I have never claimed to hold the monopoly of knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence. Another sign of your snobbery and elitism, as its not me claiming this but you, clearly allowing yourself to be wound up because you are unable to take criticism. So its a false perception claiming I think that, its what you think, based clearly here on having a tantrum over me exposing your poor and quite frankly your bitchy views about the EU and some of its leaders. Maybe you can explain to me how in anyway that is reasoning and intelligent?
4) 38% of those eligible voted to leave, is that a majority to you of those eligible to vote?
Second I do not have to get over anything, especially, when you are acting like a petulant brat over your views being easily ridiculed. You seem to hold this view that a decision is final and set in stone. Its not. That is not democracy, as things can change with future votes. So why should I not campaign to have the UK remain i the EU? Nobody is telling the Scots they cannot have a future referendum.
5) My points still stand of which you failed to address. The UK is going into uncharted territory, of which nobody can predict what the future holds. It will either go well or be a complete disaster for the UK.
So again I ask, what assurances can you provide that leaving the UK is not going to be a disaster?
What contingencies do you have for if anything does start to go wrong, like with job losses
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Tommy Monk Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:09 pm
No... we are going back to how it was before we were in the eu.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Ben Reilly Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:48 pm
Eilzel wrote:To echo Ben's words. In every sense, Trump was voted in by a minority against the will of the majority. A broken system (that he hated not long ago) is why he is now President.
In defense of Dawkins; he even mentioned in the past that he himself is not ideally placed to vote on the EU. Since politics is not his expertise, nor most people's. it wasn't him looking down on people. For that reason he opposed the referendum completely. And he had a point. That is before even mentioning the misinformation and outright lies of the Leave camp.
As for voters being informed. Well it's inevitable some are less informed than others. If your only news source is the Sun or Mail or Facebook you are hardly qualified in such matters. And a decision of that scale requires better imo. Every outlook on Brexit is bleak. As Leavers predicted. It isn't looking like an intelligent decision is it?
Thanks, Les -- I was starting to think that my posts were invisible or something ...
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:37 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
And here you go again with your usual squeals of "snobbery", "elitism" and "racism" as soon as you are confronted by an opinion and an argument that runs contrary to your own views and to the contents of your choice of cut-and-pasted source material.
You do not hold a monopoly in this forum so far as knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence are concerned, even if you have convinced yourself that you do.
The majority vote was for the UK to leave the European Union. Get over it.
If you wish to lend your support to those politicians who seem determined to thwart the will of the majority of electors by implying that ordinary people are not qualified to choose their own destiny, then at least have the guts to admit it, together with your own demonstrable "snobbery and elitism."
If you wish to continue to "talk down" the country, its economy and institutions while others show a determination to make a success of them in a challenging and changing world, then do so if you must.
1) Did you or did you not demean the ability of a former President based on the state they came from?
The answer is yes. That means you were using a very poor and quite immature argument grounded in racism. As its based on a people from that state and not their ability.
2) Second it was complete snobbery and elitism, based off a the racism view point, that because someone is from a small state, they are not capable of running a much bigger system.
3) I have never claimed to hold the monopoly of knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence. Another sign of your snobbery and elitism, as its not me claiming this but you, clearly allowing yourself to be wound up because you are unable to take criticism. So its a false perception claiming I think that, its what you think, based clearly here on having a tantrum over me exposing your poor and quite frankly your bitchy views about the EU and some of its leaders. Maybe you can explain to me how in anyway that is reasoning and intelligent?
4) 38% of those eligible voted to leave, is that a majority to you of those eligible to vote?
Second I do not have to get over anything, especially, when you are acting like a petulant brat over your views being easily ridiculed. You seem to hold this view that a decision is final and set in stone. Its not. That is not democracy, as things can change with future votes. So why should I not campaign to have the UK remain i the EU? Nobody is telling the Scots they cannot have a future referendum.
5) My points still stand of which you failed to address. The UK is going into uncharted territory, of which nobody can predict what the future holds. It will either go well or be a complete disaster for the UK.
So again I ask, what assurances can you provide that leaving the UK is not going to be a disaster?
What contingencies do you have for if anything does start to go wrong, like with job losses
Oh, do grow up and stop your ridiculous whingeing and posturing. You know damn well that had the referendum vote gone the other way and that the "leave" faction were now calling for a second referendum or blocking tactics by the House of Commons and the House of Lords to reverse the decision you would now have been wailing your head off about attempts to subvert the democratic vote.
The truth is that you and people like you are all in favour of democracy...so long as it is democracy in accordance with your definition and on your terms. What has happened here is that ordinary people have finally told their self appointed Lords and Masters that they do not necessarily know what is best, and that for once they should listen to what ordinary people think, say and want so far as their future is concerned.
Cameron reluctantly granted the referendum believing that it was unthinkable that ordinary Joe Soap would actually ignore what they were being told by the self-serving "great and good" and that they would fall dutifully into line.
But they didn't. The majority voted to quit the corrupt, undemocratic and economically illiterate and incompetent European Union with its self-perpetuating bunch of unelected petty dictators led by pompous, posturing and largely failed and has-been politicians.
If you want to continue grovelling to the establishment and doing the bidding of those whom you consider to be your betters, then do so.
But do not presume to question either the intelligence or the commitment to the future of this country of those of us who refuse to grovel alongside you.
Fred Moletrousers- MABEL, THE GREAT ZOG
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Join date : 2014-01-23
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by nicko Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:22 pm
Got to agree with that Fred.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:12 am
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
1) Did you or did you not demean the ability of a former President based on the state they came from?
The answer is yes. That means you were using a very poor and quite immature argument grounded in racism. As its based on a people from that state and not their ability.
2) Second it was complete snobbery and elitism, based off a the racism view point, that because someone is from a small state, they are not capable of running a much bigger system.
3) I have never claimed to hold the monopoly of knowledge, reasoning, logic and intelligence. Another sign of your snobbery and elitism, as its not me claiming this but you, clearly allowing yourself to be wound up because you are unable to take criticism. So its a false perception claiming I think that, its what you think, based clearly here on having a tantrum over me exposing your poor and quite frankly your bitchy views about the EU and some of its leaders. Maybe you can explain to me how in anyway that is reasoning and intelligent?
4) 38% of those eligible voted to leave, is that a majority to you of those eligible to vote?
Second I do not have to get over anything, especially, when you are acting like a petulant brat over your views being easily ridiculed. You seem to hold this view that a decision is final and set in stone. Its not. That is not democracy, as things can change with future votes. So why should I not campaign to have the UK remain i the EU? Nobody is telling the Scots they cannot have a future referendum.
5) My points still stand of which you failed to address. The UK is going into uncharted territory, of which nobody can predict what the future holds. It will either go well or be a complete disaster for the UK.
So again I ask, what assurances can you provide that leaving the UK is not going to be a disaster?
What contingencies do you have for if anything does start to go wrong, like with job losses
Oh, do grow up and stop your ridiculous whingeing and posturing. You know damn well that had the referendum vote gone the other way and that the "leave" faction were now calling for a second referendum or blocking tactics by the House of Commons and the House of Lords to reverse the decision you would now have been wailing your head off about attempts to subvert the democratic vote.
The truth is that you and people like you are all in favour of democracy...so long as it is democracy in accordance with your definition and on your terms. What has happened here is that ordinary people have finally told their self appointed Lords and Masters that they do not necessarily know what is best, and that for once they should listen to what ordinary people think, say and want so far as their future is concerned.
Cameron reluctantly granted the referendum believing that it was unthinkable that ordinary Joe Soap would actually ignore what they were being told by the self-serving "great and good" and that they would fall dutifully into line.
But they didn't. The majority voted to quit the corrupt, undemocratic and economically illiterate and incompetent European Union with its self-perpetuating bunch of unelected petty dictators led by pompous, posturing and largely failed and has-been politicians.
If you want to continue grovelling to the establishment and doing the bidding of those whom you consider to be your betters, then do so.
But do not presume to question either the intelligence or the commitment to the future of this country of those of us who refuse to grovel alongside you.
1) Considering it was you being bitchy and acting childish, I have no need to grow up.
You have failed to address your borderline racism, so I take that as an admission of guilt.
And your elitism and snobbery and piss poor accusations
If the leave campaign had of lost, would I have said they could not campaign for a second referendum?
Of course not, as again nothing is set in stone and political parties could make it their manifesto to leave
2) So more bullshit accusations. I am favour of Democracy full stop which means the ability to future votes being cast on anything, where in fact is you being undemocratic and trying to sniffle free speech, by saying I cannot look to change the the course of the country back into the EU. You seem to think in 10 years people still have top abide by this vote? That they cannot have one to rejoin. There will be voters long dead then and new voters. Hence the ridiculousness of your claim and accusation#
3) The majority did not vote to quit. Not sure how many times I have to explain to you that 38% voting to leave of those eligible is not a majority.
4) My points still stand of which you failed to address. The UK is going into uncharted territory, of which nobody can predict what the future holds. It will either go well or be a complete disaster for the UK.
So again I ask, what assurances can you provide that leaving the UK is not going to be a disaster?
What contingencies do you have for if anything does start to go wrong, like with job losses
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:38 am
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Oh, do grow up and stop your ridiculous whingeing and posturing. You know damn well that had the referendum vote gone the other way and that the "leave" faction were now calling for a second referendum or blocking tactics by the House of Commons and the House of Lords to reverse the decision you would now have been wailing your head off about attempts to subvert the democratic vote.
The truth is that you and people like you are all in favour of democracy...so long as it is democracy in accordance with your definition and on your terms. What has happened here is that ordinary people have finally told their self appointed Lords and Masters that they do not necessarily know what is best, and that for once they should listen to what ordinary people think, say and want so far as their future is concerned.
Cameron reluctantly granted the referendum believing that it was unthinkable that ordinary Joe Soap would actually ignore what they were being told by the self-serving "great and good" and that they would fall dutifully into line.
But they didn't. The majority voted to quit the corrupt, undemocratic and economically illiterate and incompetent European Union with its self-perpetuating bunch of unelected petty dictators led by pompous, posturing and largely failed and has-been politicians.
If you want to continue grovelling to the establishment and doing the bidding of those whom you consider to be your betters, then do so.
But do not presume to question either the intelligence or the commitment to the future of this country of those of us who refuse to grovel alongside you.
1) Considering it was you being bitchy and acting childish, I have no need to grow up.
You have failed to address your borderline racism, so I take that as an admission of guilt.
And your elitism and snobbery and piss poor accusations (A descent to your usual level of infantile claptrap whenever you are confronted with opinions that upset your sensitivities. Not worth the dignity or effort of a response)
If the leave campaign had of lost, would I have said they could not campaign for a second referendum?
Of course not, as again nothing is set in stone and political parties could make it their manifesto to leave
2) So more bullshit accusations. I am favour of Democracy full stop which means the ability to future votes being cast on anything, where in fact is you being undemocratic and trying to sniffle free speech, by saying I cannot look to change the the course of the country back into the EU. You seem to think in 10 years people still have top abide by this vote? That they cannot have one to rejoin. Has it not already been made clear that once the revokation of membership document has been signed, the decision will be constitutionally final and binding?There will be voters long dead then and new voters. Hence the ridiculousness of your claim and accusation#
3) The majority did not vote to quit. Not sure how many times I have to explain to you that 38% voting to leave of those eligible is not a majority. Probably for the same number of times that I have to explain to you that in determining an election result the number of eligible voters is irrelevant. If people are too idle to cast a vote, given that these days they don't even have to attend a polling station, then they have no right, in my opinion, to complain about the result. By your yardstick many, if not most, local government election results and trade union strike ballots would be invalid.
4) My points still stand of which you failed to address. (Perhaps that is because you fail to read posts properly in the first place) The UK is going into uncharted territory, of which nobody can predict what the future holds. It will either go well or be a complete disaster for the UK.
So again I ask, what assurances can you provide that leaving the UK is not going to be a disaster?
What contingencies do you have for if anything does start to go wrong, like with job losses
Utterly ridiculous hypothetiical questions. Like everyone else I was given an opportunity to say whether I believed that the UK should remain in the European Union or leave. I have posted on more than one occasion that I voted to leave and I have explained my reasons for doing so. The fact that you either do not agree with those opinions or have even failed to comprehend them is a matter of supreme indifference to me. This is an open opinion forum and not an exclusive vehicle for your frequently flawed arguments. If, for some strange reason, you are demanding "assurances" or "guarantees" then I suggest that you seek them from the only people who are eligible - legally and in terms of professional competence - to give them. I think you will find David Davies and his team at the House of Commons and his boss, Theresa May, at 10 Downing Street.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:02 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:
(A descent to your usual level of infantile claptrap whenever you are confronted with opinions that upset your sensitivities. Not worth the dignity or effort of a response)
Has it not already been made clear that once the revokation of membership document has been signed, the decision will be constitutionally final and binding?
Probably for the same number of times that I have to explain to you that in determining an election result the number of eligible voters is irrelevant. If people are too idle to cast a vote, given that these days they don't even have to attend a polling station, then they have no right, in my opinion, to complain about the result. By your yardstick many, if not most, local government election results and trade union strike ballots would be invalid.
(Perhaps that is because you fail to read posts properly in the first place)
Utterly ridiculous hypothetiical questions. Like everyone else I was given an opportunity to say whether I believed that the UK should remain in the European Union or leave. I have posted on more than one occasion that I voted to leave and I have explained my reasons for doing so. The fact that you either do not agree with those opinions or have even failed to comprehend them is a matter of supreme indifference to me. This is an open opinion forum and not an exclusive vehicle for your frequently flawed arguments. If, for some strange reason, you are demanding "assurances" or "guarantees" then I suggest that you seek them from the only people who are eligible - legally and in terms of professional competence - to give them. I think you will find David Davies and his team at the House of Commons and his boss, Theresa May, at 10 Downing Street.
1) Contradiction alert. As you have just replied and its clear you know the point stands on bordering of racism, but I expect nothing less from a pompous elitist snob.
2) Nobody is denying Brexit is going to happen, but you seem upset that the next general election or future ones could not be campaigned to rejoin. Again nothing is set in stone and it seems you are being totalitarian now, that people will have to accept this decision for the rest of humanity. Its blatantly absurd and fails every aspect of what democracy is. What you are saying is future generations have to abide by a vote cast by people who could then be long dead and that the future generations have no say in their own futures. Hence the absurdity of your view point. Not only that people can change their minds on what they voted for, it happens often each general election. That is what is so great about Democracy, you have the ability to correct past mistakes.
3) So you clearly don't believe in true democracy then, as you based a system, where the minority rule, which eloquently adds to the point that has Ben has been making. This has nothing to do with being idle and those wishing to remain should not have need to vote either. As the referendum was on voting to leave the EU, thus, for a true democratic vote would have required the leave campaign to have 50%+. You do understand this do you not? Why should it require people to vote to remain to something they are already in? That is clearly absurd. So it further proves how Undemocratic the British system of Politics is. This you are happy on, but have the bloody cheek to make said claims onto the EU. Many elections are not fought on a single point, as a Referendum is, which is clearly a major change to the system. I would expect the same for the Scottish Referendum. People voting for different MP's has choices, where a referendum is one choice to vote on.
4) So you claim pathetic questions, even though every single expert admits that the UK is going into uncharted territory and that nobody can predict what happens. Its evident you have not got a clue or even give a shit, if this ruins the economy, jobs etc. What an arrogant selfish emotive stance you hold, showing its clearly not based on reason, but getting your own way. I am sure many people will be happy to know you clearly cannot even offer reassurances for the future and are basically telling to get stuffed and its tough luck if it goes tits up.
That is all I needed to know and prove that even one of the most intelligent posters on here is not swayed by any reason, but completely by emotions on this and even worse cannot even place assurances over the future. Leta lone any contingency plans if things go wrong
Thanks
Guest- Guest
Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Andy Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:33 pm
What I find damaging is that a high % of pension aged electorate voted to leave , but in a few years will not be affected by their decision because they will be dead and buried. It is the youth ( under 30's) who will be mainly affected by their decision - with seemingly no recourse to change the decision, and will inherit an uncertain and potentially ruinous legacy. To be old and to vote against the wishes of thecyounger generation, whilst democratic , is morally wrong.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Angry Andy wrote:What I find damaging is that a high % of pension aged electorate voted to leave , but in a few years will not be affected by their decision because they will be dead and buried. It is the youth ( under 30's) who will be mainly affected by their decision - with seemingly no recourse to change the decision, and will inherit an uncertain and potentially ruinous legacy. To be old and to vote against the wishes of thecyounger generation, whilst democratic , is morally wrong.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.
Then why didn't more young people get off their arses and exercise their right to vote? As I recall, one of the issues raised during the post poll inquest was the sheer number of young eligible voters who did not do so.
Now prattling on about the elderly "voting against the wishes of the younger generation" when so many of the younger generation were obviously just too lazy to turn out is risible, to say the least.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Andy Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:07 pm
More pompous pontification Fred. They were spun a lie from Brexit and the remain campaign was woeful.
But it would be easier to vote out in a few years time after a leave vote last year than it will be to rejoin.
The truth is, you are a selfish prig, and don't care 1 iota for the younger generation.
Our grandkids will regard our generation as the one that fucked them over.
But it would be easier to vote out in a few years time after a leave vote last year than it will be to rejoin.
The truth is, you are a selfish prig, and don't care 1 iota for the younger generation.
Our grandkids will regard our generation as the one that fucked them over.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:07 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Angry Andy wrote:What I find damaging is that a high % of pension aged electorate voted to leave , but in a few years will not be affected by their decision because they will be dead and buried. It is the youth ( under 30's) who will be mainly affected by their decision - with seemingly no recourse to change the decision, and will inherit an uncertain and potentially ruinous legacy. To be old and to vote against the wishes of thecyounger generation, whilst democratic , is morally wrong.
This is why the under 30's are so angry at the likea of people like Fred and Nicko. Selfish, self serving know alls.
Then why didn't more young people get off their arses and exercise their right to vote? As I recall, one of the issues raised during the post poll inquest was the sheer number of young eligible voters who did not do so.
Now prattling on about the elderly "voting against the wishes of the younger generation" when so many of the younger generation were obviously just too lazy to turn out is risible, to say the least.
That is because many of the youth, thought it was a foregone conclusion that remain would win.
That is not being lazy is it?
Again Andy makes a fair point about the future and youth.
A sad reality as it maybe but a number who did vote will be dead within the next 10 years and in that time more of the youth will be eligible to vote.
Are you saying, they have no rights to the future and cannot vote for change, just as you did?
However, they have every right to excercize their rights to vote to have this changed.
Through general elections, as nothing is set in stone and I can guarantee that if Brexit does go tits up, you will see a unanimous vote to get back in.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:42 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Then why didn't more young people get off their arses and exercise their right to vote? As I recall, one of the issues raised during the post poll inquest was the sheer number of young eligible voters who did not do so.
Now prattling on about the elderly "voting against the wishes of the younger generation" when so many of the younger generation were obviously just too lazy to turn out is risible, to say the least.
That is because many of the youth, thought it was a foregone conclusion that remain would win.
That is not being lazy is it?
Again Andy makes a fair point about the future and youth.
A sad reality as it maybe but a number who did vote will be dead within the next 10 years and in that time more of the youth will be eligible to vote.
Are you saying, they have no rights to the future and cannot vote for change, just as you did?
However, they have every right to excercize their rights to vote to have this changed.
Through general elections, as nothing is set in stone and I can guarantee that if Brexit does go tits up, you will see a unanimous vote to get back in.
Yes. And stupid.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:54 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Thorin wrote:
That is because many of the youth, thought it was a foregone conclusion that remain would win.
That is not being lazy is it?
Again Andy makes a fair point about the future and youth.
A sad reality as it maybe but a number who did vote will be dead within the next 10 years and in that time more of the youth will be eligible to vote.
Are you saying, they have no rights to the future and cannot vote for change, just as you did?
However, they have every right to excercize their rights to vote to have this changed.
Through general elections, as nothing is set in stone and I can guarantee that if Brexit does go tits up, you will see a unanimous vote to get back in.
Yes. And stupid.
No its called being over confident
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:00 pm
Angry Andy wrote:More pompous pontification Fred. They were spun a lie from Brexit and the remain campaign was woeful.
But it would be easier to vote out in a few years time after a leave vote last year than it will be to rejoin.
The truth is, you are a selfish prig, and don't care 1 iota for the younger generation.
Our grandkids will regard our generation as the one that fucked them over.
No, I'm someone who exercised his democratic right - some would say duty - to vote on one of the most important issues to arise for decades.
The "selfish prigs" are those who couldn't be bothered to vote because they were so convinced by their own sense of importance and infallibility that they expected everyone else to subscribe to their views rather than actually to think for themselves for once.
Typical elitist Left Wing attitude.
I
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Fred Moletrousers Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:01 pm
Thorin wrote:Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Yes. And stupid.
No its called being over confident
As well as lazy and stupid.
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Re: Tyranny of the minority: How the most sinister trend of our age is a poisonous conviction taking root on the Left and among the elite that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted with voting
by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:02 pm
Fred Moletrousers wrote:Angry Andy wrote:More pompous pontification Fred. They were spun a lie from Brexit and the remain campaign was woeful.
But it would be easier to vote out in a few years time after a leave vote last year than it will be to rejoin.
The truth is, you are a selfish prig, and don't care 1 iota for the younger generation.
Our grandkids will regard our generation as the one that fucked them over.
No, I'm someone who exercised his democratic right - some would say duty - to vote on one of the most important issues to arise for decades.
The "selfish prigs" are those who couldn't be bothered to vote because they were so convinced by their own sense of importance and infallibility that they expected everyone else to subscribe to their views rather than actually to think for themselves for once.
Typical elitist Left Wing attitude.
I
I am not left wing and rightly concerned for the future, where the Uk is going into uncharted territory, of which as seen you claimed were pathetic issues to be raised.
Hence in my previous long post to you, its clear you voted with your emotions and not reason
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