Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism

by Guest Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:30 pm

Immediately after the November Paris attacks, my mother who lives in a small village in Morocco called me. She called to tell how sad she was for what happened in Paris, and asked me to pass on her condolences to my French friends. My mother is a Muslimah who prays five times a day. She did not call to justify what happened, or claim that the terror attacks had nothing to do with Islam. She just wanted to declare her solidarity with the victims.

At the end of our call, she told me about an imam in the village who incited young people to go fight with IS in Syria. I asked her what she thought of him. She answered, "I have called the police to investigate. This is how I fight terrorism." My mother's call illustrates a key point for me. What I notice here in the west is a paradox: after each attack waged by militant Islamists, Muslims are asked to distance themselves from terrorism, and Muslim organizations do exactly that by sheer reflex. The mantra is repeated everywhere that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

Notice the difference between saying "This is how I fight terrorism" versus saying "Islam has nothing to do with terrorism." The first is an act of defiance and resistance. The second is a way of distancing yourself. Muslims can learn from mother. They must be proactive in the fight against Islamist movements that lead to terrorism. Because self-distancing alone cannot fight terror. On the contrary, merely denying personal responsibility for an act tends to lead very quickly to the abrogation of the responsibility to act.

Furthermore, the mere act of distancing oneself from something doesn't exclude the possibility that you might inadvertently (or even intentionally and secretly) be supporting it. It's as if I would say: "I distance myself from racism..." but I do not act, and deep down in my soul maybe there's a reason I do not act!

This is not to say that any given Muslim necessarily endorses terrorist ideologies, of course. But many are in fact too ashamed to admit that there is a problem with their religion. And having distanced themselves from the problem, they distance themselves from the solution.
To distance your religion from terror is easy, it just takes few words to say. But to go against the ruling fundamentalist interpretation of the Qu'ran that is taught in schools and spread via fatwas and clerics is a completely different fight. Muslims need to fight the manifestations of extremism thriving in their societies, be it in their local communities in Europe or in their countries of origin.

In Islamic schools, they still teach the old "us vs. them," believer/infidel dichotomy. In mosques, imams incite hatred against infidels and apostates. Books and fatwas preaching the same intolerant concepts are distributed to millions worldwide via Saudi petrodollars. These are the factories of terrorism and intolerance. And if we want to fight those phenomena, we should strike them at their sources.

Five years ago I fled from my country, Morocco, to Switzerland. My life was in danger because I am an atheist and I dared to blog about it. Here in the west, when I criticize Sharia or the situation of women and apostates in the Islamic world, if I insist we must understand Islam in its historical context and argue for an Islamic enlightenment, I am often accused of being Islamophobic. And I wonder: Why do so many Europeans take any and all criticism of Islam as bigotry?

Islamophobia as a killer argument
People who attempt to silence criticism of Islam are curbing all efforts to induce positive change and enlightenment in the Islamic world, and instead of siding with the secular Muslims and ex-Muslims they are supporting the Islamic far-right."Islamophobia" functions as a censorship device and is much favoured by Muslim fundamentalists who aim to suffocate open discussion and criticism, so they can comfortably spew their ideological poison in Islamic communities. I wonder, would my European friends adopt the same position towards criticism of, say, Catholicism? Would they label any and all criticism of Catholicism as Christianophobia or Catholicophobia? Why should Islam then be singled out and considered above criticism?

This "Islamophobia" reaction, which is commonplace among many Western non-Muslim academics and young people who embrace tolerance and multiculturalism, stems from an implicit cultural relativism. The assumption seems to be that the behaviour and mindset of an individual are relative to her or his culture of origin, and should be judged only within that context, implying that principles like human rights may not be universal or should not be considered as such.

Additionally, those who deploy the charge of "Islamophobia" are often quick to blame all the ills of the Islamic world on colonialism, refusing to accept their multidimensional nature, and yet again in effect abrogating the responsibility to act against extremism. My generation is being systematically denied the right to criticize the foundations of Islamic societies, especially Islam and Sharia law. True "Islamophobes" are those who defend fundamentalist interpretations from criticism, knowing fully well that Muslims themselves are the first victims of these interpretations. They are on the wrong side of history, as they are against the secularization and modernization of Islamic societies, because they know that their values are incompatible with the principles of equality, with human rights, and with the spirit of our modern age.
Once a religion is codified in laws, it loses its claim to divinity. This is the problem of Islam today. If the majority of Muslims do not regard religion as a private matter between themselves and God, but as a set of rules for their lives and for the whole of society, insisting on taking Islam as a literal manual for life, then faith and civil laws will inevitably conflict. The aversion to any criticism of beliefs and practices associated with Islam will persist as well.

This is why I and many other ex-Muslims and secular Muslims cannot and will not give up on our right to criticize. That does not make us "Islamophobes." We are not bigoted against Muslims (who in many cases are our own families and closest friends). Criticism of ideas is a necessary feature of free societies and one of the reasons they have become and remain open and competitive on an intellectual cultural and economic level.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/kacem-el-ghazzali/fight-terrorism_b_10356954.html

Excellent article and needed saying and points out what I continually keep saying, that we need to speak openly and honestly about these problems. More to to seperatr the many good Muslims be lumbered with the bad, but that requires Muslims to not hide behind a victimhood, when islam is criticized. The narative of hate that is so widespread around Muslim world, needs to be tackled by Muslims. By allowing many lies and hateful views to fuel fear and hate of the west is largely going unchecked. There are some great Muslims out there trying to combat these problems, but it is these people that Muslims and Non-Muslims alike should be standing behind supporting.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:02 am

I don't know that the article is entirely fair. When Scott Roeder murdered abortion doctor George Tiller in 2009 in the name of Christianity (in Tiller's church, no less), I was a Bible-believing Christian, and I most certainly felt that Roeder's crime had nothing to do with Christianity, at least not as I understood it. (In fact, nowhere in the Bible is abortion even mentioned, and the closest thing to mentioning doesn't call it a sin.)

When you look at the Quran and see teachings like:

There is no compulsion in religion.

But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace.

Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.

Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.

You will find the nearest in love to the [Muslims] those who say: ‘We are Christians.’

... I can certainly understand how a Muslim might see a terrorist attack and firmly believe that the attack had nothing to do with Islam, at least not as they understand it.

The article seems to once again be trying to make innocent Muslims feel guilty about the violent actions others carry out in the name of Islam.

Of course, Muslims who know of extremists within their communities should report them -- anyone who knows of any potentially violent person should do the same. But I don't think that requires, say, a Christian who suspects one of his fellow parishioners is planning to blow up an abortion clinic to "admit that there is a problem with their religion."

by Tommy Monk Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:33 am

Koran 9 29

Fight those who believe not in allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:19 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I don't know that the article is entirely fair. When Scott Roeder murdered abortion doctor George Tiller in 2009 in the name of Christianity (in Tiller's church, no less), I was a Bible-believing Christian, and I most certainly felt that Roeder's crime had nothing to do with Christianity, at least not as I understood it. (In fact, nowhere in the Bible is abortion even mentioned, and the closest thing to mentioning doesn't call it a sin.)

When you look at the Quran and see teachings like:

There is no compulsion in religion.

But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace.

Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.

Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.

You will find the nearest in love to the [Muslims] those who say: ‘We are Christians.’

... I can certainly understand how a Muslim might see a terrorist attack and firmly believe that the attack had nothing to do with Islam, at least not as they understand it.

The article seems to once again be trying to make innocent Muslims feel guilty about the violent actions others carry out in the name of Islam.

Of course, Muslims who know of extremists within their communities should report them -- anyone who knows of any potentially violent person should do the same. But I don't think that requires, say, a Christian who suspects one of his fellow parishioners is planning to blow up an abortion clinic to "admit that there is a problem with their religion."

Fair?
You see Ben what youa are doing is saying there are Muslims who are against violence so it must not be Islamic.
Its the denial argument that does not hold any validity, as throughout history and even today. There would not be islamic violence, without Islam. Yes we should get behind and support those who back and view such verses that speak of a peaceful islam, but they are a minority, espcially when the religion conflicts.

The point you are most missing of all is how he rightly said how his mother dealt with extremism. He did not make excuses for this, because there is a number of religious leaders, imans and scholars that promote a far different Islam to the one you speak of.
If there is no compulsion in religion, then there should never be a punishment for leaving islam. The reality Apostacy is punishable as a crime in many Muslim majority countries and not only this but viewed that it should be punishable by death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

The view on Christians and Jews, speaks of before Muhammad, as to who are saved by Allah, it does not claim any after Muhammad will be saved at all and there are certainly verses that teach hate of jews, as well of the deeds of Muhammad when he executed the Banu Qurayza Jews of Mecca. The sad reality is that antisemitism is rife in the islamic world and it has been for the last few centuries, way before any view to make a state of israel you see today.

http://global100.adl.org/

Now the problem is Ben, you can ignore centuries of history.
Nobody attacked Muhammad, outside Arabia, he set out oin a conquest which his successors also did the same. The view aboive is based on Transgression, which no such transgression happened. It was the spread of islam, by the sword, that brought about expansion quickly of islam to the Middle east..

Again what you are missing is there is so many Islamic texts whether in the Quran or the hadiths that is constantly used to justify, terrorism, war, and punishments. To try to deny this is trying to deny the problems within the islamic text.
You are doing exactly what the article is stating. Ignoring and trying to divert away from the problems and not face up to them.
Yes we should always encourage the progressive Muslims, and those who advocate peace, but being as bad as some Muslims haters who use select verses, you are being as poor in doing the same ignoring many that conflict with the above.

Like i have said before, the whole religion is designed to defend itself against any challenges to its belief system.
People cannot leave, on punishment of death, or in more secular countries are ostracized by a community if they do leave Islam.
It teachs a view that if Transgressed, which as seen can be a view to simply aiding a conquered nation like Kuwait be liberated to be taken as a Transgression to then commit acts of violence. I can see and understand why you are coming from, as you are doing this from a position of good, but it is also a position of an ignorance of understanding of the religion itself. When all you need do is look at centuries of history on aspect of Islam. I once used to do the same and to keep defending where there is bad beliefs, claiming as you did verses that are conflicted by others. Is thus ignoring the problems within islam itself.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:53 am

Perhaps if you'd 'stop' reading those narrow minded blogs and just 'Bing/Google/STFW'. You'd read some fascinating info about the shift in religions and how all of the warring factions have caused many Muslim's to 'shift their faith too' and some nations that haven't had the continual strife that Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan have suffered under.

Other Ex-Muslims
For more comments by ex-Muslims whose testimonies were too short for their own page, see the Comments from Former Muslims page.
News of Muslims Leaving Islam
• According to research carried out by the respected Pakistani-born American Muslim Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus (1932 - 2007), 75% of New Muslim Converts in the US leave Islam within a few years. Listen to the clip detailing this research (listen on Youtube)
• Leaving Islam for Atheism, and Finding a Much-Needed Place Among Peers
2011 Pew worldwide study: "Islam loses as many adherents via conversion as it gains"
• 2 million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia
"The number of ethnic Muslims in Russia who adopted Christianity is 2 million, while the number of the Orthodox who have been converted to Islam is only 2,5 thousand...The proportion of Muslims in North Ossetia has decreased at least by 30%, while in Beslan itself, where Muslims had comprised from 30 to 40% of the population, their number has decreased at least by half."
Roman Silantyev: executive secretary of the Inter-religious Council in Russia
• Iraqis Shocked as Atheism Creeps in
• In Africa, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity every year: (English Translation | Arabic)
"Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa's main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa [a land of 1 billion] has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa...In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed".
Shaykh Ahmed Katani
• Several million converts to Christianity in Egypt keeping their apostasy secretThe number of Muslim-born converts to Christianity in Egypt, who are keeping their faith secret, has reached several million. Due to the State Security's persecution, torture and rape, they have established outside Egypt an organization called "Freed by Christ" as well as "Way TV" to speak on their behalf to the West, and expose their sufferings at the hands of State Security. It is headed by the Christian convert Dr. Mohamad Rahouna, ex-dean of the Faculty of Arabic Studies, Minya University, who fled to the United States.
• Muslim Preachers, Dawa Missionaries, Islamic Scholars, Mullahs, & Imams Leave Islam and Enter Christianity
• 200,000 Muslims leave Islam in the UK
• Million Iranians (particularly young people and women) leave Islam and join Evangelical churches in the past 5 years
• [url=http://web.archive.org/web/20080726171936/http://www.iam-online.net/Press_release_PDFs/IAMTVrelease_FINAL.doc (Read-Only).pdf]PDF file - 50,000 Iranian Muslims have embraced Christianity in Iran in last 2 years[/url]
• 250,000 Muslims left Islam in Malaysia | English translation
• France: Around 15,000 Muslims each year are converting to Christianity - around 10,000 to Catholicism and 5,000 to Protestantism.
• Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims leave Islam and Convert to Christianity
• Thousands of Bangladeshi, North African, Kashmiri, Indian Muslims, Central Asian Muslims Leave Islam and Embrace Christ
• 35,000 Muslims convert into Christianity each year in Turkey
• Kyrgyzstan: 100,000 Muslims have converted to Christianity in 3 Years (additional link)
"The percentage of Muslims declined from 84 percent of the total population in 2001 to 79.3 percent in 2004. In terms of figures...some 100,000 Muslims, of the country's five million population, have converted to Christianity."
Omurzak Mamayusupov: the director of Kyrgyzstan's religious affairs committee
• Indonesia: Approximately 10,000 Muslims convert to Catholicism each year
"According to A.T. Willis and others between 2 or 3 million Muslims converted to Christianity after the massacres of the communists in Indonesia, in 1965"
• More Muslims have come to Christ in the last two decades that in all of history - Charisma Magazine article
• Hundreds of Muslims across Israel and the Palestinian areas have come to Christ - SBC article from June/July 2002 Issue
• Revival in Northern Algeria: Muslims turn to Christ
"We have churches that have grown 802%. Many converts have come from Islam with no Christian heritage, no Christian background, no resources whatsoever, no training. But they just believe in God and His Word...In every village and every town there are Christians, and there are churches,..In one town, actually there are more churches than mosques, which is a big miracle to happen in the Middle East...I know of many, many churches today who baptize about 120 to 150 every year. I have never been to a church in the west or anywhere in the world where the church is already packed 2 1/2 hours before the meeting." That's happening in Algeria.
Pastor Youssef Jacob with Operation Mobilization
• Counter culture? Few Pak youths giving up Islam - Pakistani youths turning to agnosticism and atheism
• Jheains To Enforce Apostasy Law - Malaysian agency vows to enforce Apostasy law due to "scores of Muslim converts" leaving Islam
• Young Iraqis are losing their faith in religion - Sabrina Tavernise, New York Times, March 3, 2008
• Satanism is growing among Iranian youth
• Ex-Muslims seen as new branch of Christianity
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:12 am

Well there is a fine example again of ignorance.
A poster posts up stats on where Muslims can leave islam, without fear of death and punishment in countries that are not Muslim majority. It even states where in Muslim majority countries they do so in secret.
Or Muslim countries that are more secular
So 4ever, why would they need to kep their conversion secret in a Muslim majority country?

Does the states show how those who leave are ostracized in many cases by the Muslims communities they come from.

Or the views of Muslims on Apostacy?

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism Gsi2-chp1-9

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism Gsi2-chp1-9

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-Muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism Gsi2-overview-1

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism Gsi2-overview-1

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/Muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:25 am

This needs posting again.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:33 am

Didgey-dooer > Well there is a fine example again of ignorance.
A poster posts up stats on where Muslims can leave islam, without fear of death and punishment in countries that are not Muslim majority.

You can't even repeat what my post clearly stated without twisting the wording around to suit your F'd up monologue --- and you double right back into BS attacking instead of just discussing the issues!
TYPICAL - AND SO IMMATURE!
You keep saying 'they can't do it'; and despite 'YOUR' claims it's obvious that they are doing it and the numbers are clearly showing that they are - they have and even in your own sanctimonious England the numbers are surprising how many have converted from Islam to Christian ...
• 200,000 Muslims leave Islam in the UK

But carry on ...you'll not change the volume or the broken record of your rant; but the facts and data tells a totally different story = TRUTH
And if your 'good behavior' has worn off so soon, I'll be obliged to put your sorry arse back on ignore ...you're regurgitating theme grows OLD!

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:38 am

4EVER2 wrote:
Didgey-dooer > Well there is a fine example again of ignorance.
A poster posts up stats on where Muslims can leave islam, without fear of death and punishment in countries that are not Muslim majority.
You can't even repeat what my post clearly stated without twisting the wording around to suit your F'd up monologue --- and you double right back into BS attacking instead of just discussing the issues!
TYPICAL - AND SO IMMATURE!
You keep saying 'they can't do it'; and despite 'YOUR' claims it's obvious that they are doing it and the numbers are clearly showing that they are - they have and even in your own sanctimonious England the numbers are surprising how many have converted from Islam to Christian ...
• 200,000 Muslims leave Islam in the UK

But carry on ...you'll not change the volume or the broken record of your rant; but the facts and data tells a totally different story = TRUTH
And if your 'good behavior' has worn off so soon, I'll be obliged to put your sorry arse back on ignore ...you're regurgitating theme grows OLD!

Again posting up ignorance.
Of what fear and death of punishment by the law in the Uk do Muslims have of leaving Islam?

None

Were you able to answer my questions?

No

You blatantly ignored them and why?

The main reason as your stats were presentd by you, based on ignorance of the reality of the problems of people leaving Islam.

Again we are speaking about how and why in Muslim majority countries that embrace theocracy its near impossible for Muslims to leave islam.
The only way they can is in secret and through death. That is not muchy of an option and is as bad as when jews had to hide their identity from German Third Reich through fear of being sent to their deaths in concentration camps.So as see, you post up views from secular countries where people can leave or Muslim countries where there is progresion and secularism.Even there though Muslims are often ostracized by their own families and the cimmunity.I suggest you watch the video by the ex-Muslim above and further understand why you simply have not got the first clue as to what youa re talking about

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:07 am

embrace theocracy its near impossible for Muslims to leave islam.

Well - Well ...duck & dodge-a-roooo; digress and derail off onto something similar/almost but not quite what you've been ranting about!
Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism 371740092

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism 371740092

Your discussion technique isn't of value and your 'master-debating' skills are only in your mind! I won't be chasing your POINT LESS discussion problems around this topic! Enjoy, maybe Tommykins will come back to play with your verbal skills. Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism 2385359624

Muslims Must Do More Than Distance Themselves From Terrorism 2385359624

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:07 am

Some people follow some verses, other people follow others. Why? Because religions are designed to attract followers. That's why they contain so many contradictory messages.

Good people take the good, bad people take the bad.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:08 am

4EVER2 wrote:
embrace theocracy its near impossible for Muslims to leave islam.

Well - Well ...duck & dodge-a-roooo; digress and derail off onto something similar/almost but not quite what you've been ranting about!

Your discussion technique isn't of value and your 'master-debating' skills are only in your mind! I won't be chasing your POINT LESS discussion problems around this topic! Enjoy, maybe Tommykins will come back to play with your verbal skills.

Yes you are a child and the forum has come to see all you mainly do is post abuse about posters

Nobody is buying it anymore

Either put up or shut up, its that simple

try again

Again posting up ignorance.
Of what fear and death of punishment by the law in the Uk do Muslims have of leaving Islam?

None

Were you able to answer my questions?

No

You blatantly ignored them and why?

The main reason as your stats were presentd by you, based on ignorance of the reality of the problems of people leaving Islam.

Again we are speaking about how and why in Muslim majority countries that embrace theocracy its near impossible for Muslims to leave islam.
The only way they can is in secret and through death. That is not muchy of an option and is as bad as when jews had to hide their identity from German Third Reich through fear of being sent to their deaths in concentration camps.So as see, you post up views from secular countries where people can leave or Muslim countries where there is progresion and secularism.Even there though Muslims are often ostracized by their own families and the cimmunity.I suggest you watch the video by the ex-Muslim above and further understand why you simply have not got the first clue as to what youa re talking about

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:09 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Some people follow some verses, other people follow others. Why? Because religions are designed to attract followers. That's why they contain so many contradictory messages.

Good people take the good, bad people take the bad.

Which means Ben, then the root of the problem is found within the religion, as why would they follow bad, if not for the fact there is bad found within the religion.
I mean lets take a reality check, do you or have you not rightly been critical of the Christian right in America and even more so of the extremist element that plagues your society?

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:31 am

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Some people follow some verses, other people follow others. Why? Because religions are designed to attract followers. That's why they contain so many contradictory messages.

Good people take the good, bad people take the bad.

Which means Ben, then the root of the problem is found within the religion, as why would they follow bad, if not for the fact there is bad found within the religion.
I mean lets take a reality check, do you or have you not rightly been critical of the Christian right in America and even more so of the extremist element that plagues your society?

Good people follow the good, bad people follow the bad.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:35 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Which means Ben, then the root of the problem is found within the religion, as why would they follow bad, if not for the fact there is bad found within the religion.
I mean lets take a reality check, do you or have you not rightly been critical of the Christian right in America and even more so of the extremist element that plagues your society?

Good people follow the good, bad people follow the bad.

And where do they learn this bad from?

Religion

by Tommy Monk Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:50 am

Islam is rooted in violence and barbarism... that is the origin of it... and Muslim aggression has continued ever since then...

by HoratioTarr Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:35 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Islam is rooted in violence and barbarism... that is the origin of it... and Muslim aggression has continued ever since then...

Most religion has had it's fair share of that. Thankfully, most have realised you can't behave like that and have modified and moved on. Islam is stuck in medieval times.

by Miffs2 Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:23 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Islam is rooted in violence and barbarism... that is the origin of it... and Muslim aggression has continued ever since then...

Most religion has had it's fair share of that. Thankfully, most have realised you can't behave like that and have modified and moved on. Islam is stuck in medieval times.

Islam wants to drag us all back to medieval times.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:33 pm

Islam has been 1400 years of violence...

by Original Quill Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:04 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Islam is rooted in violence and barbarism... that is the origin of it... and Muslim aggression has continued ever since then...

and...

Tommy Monk wrote:Islam has been 1400 years of violence...

Precisely the same with Christianity. Christian crusades go back 1100-years, and in-between, if they had nothing better to do, Christians were killing each other. All of the abrahamic religions seem to be rooted in violence.

I only have second-hand knowledge of them, but some the oriental religions sound more peaceful, and thus more attractive.

by Fuzzy Zack Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:05 pm

Muslim Guy Mocked Soccer Hooligans And Made A Great Point About The Media

“If more Englishmen do not come out & unequivocally condemn this violence, people will think those drunk extremists represent all of us.”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/soccer-riots-twitter-parody?utm_term=.xoP8MX9Kg#.sdE9qYL0M

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:09 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Muslim Guy Mocked Soccer Hooligans And Made A Great Point About The Media

“If more Englishmen do not come out & unequivocally condemn this violence, people will think those drunk extremists represent all of us.”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/soccer-riots-twitter-parody?utm_term=.xoP8MX9Kg#.sdE9qYL0M

Yeah because that is the same as beheading people, enslaving little girls and raping them, blowing people up etc.

Yes i condemn their violence, more so because i once stupidily did the same, but its not just them. yesterday Russian gangs armed with knives set upon many English fans, just as french hooligans set upon English fans sitting just having a drink.
So its typical that some idiot on the web would try to make a comparable situation based off where already England has a bad reputation with some of its fans, who have only one intent to cause violence.
Not only is it poor in taste but makes an utter mockery of the victims of terrorism and extremism

by Cass Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:14 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Some people follow some verses, other people follow others. Why? Because religions are designed to attract followers. That's why they contain so many contradictory messages.

Good people take the good, bad people take the bad.

Yes. Thank you.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:17 pm

Cass wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Some people follow some verses, other people follow others. Why? Because religions are designed to attract followers. That's why they contain so many contradictory messages.

Good people take the good, bad people take the bad.

Yes. Thank you.

Yet Bens view is flawed

And yet we are also seeing people who are doctors, who save lives, others highly educated people etc, join up with these bad people like ISIS.

So the point Ben makes is not quite right, because some people do not think it is bad and that its part of their religion to act as they do.

What you then have is a problem of what is defined as bad, as to the extremist Doctor, he will not view himself as bad, but carrying out the will of his deity.

by Cass Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:22 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Cass wrote:

Yes. Thank you.

Yet Bens view is flawed

And yet we are also seeing people who are doctors, who save lives, others highly educated people etc, join up with these bad people like ISIS.

So the point Ben makes is not quite right, because some people do not think it is bad and that its part of their religion to act as they do.

What you then have is a problem of what is defined as bad, as to the extremist Doctor, he will not view himself as bad, but carrying out the will of his deity.

No I agree with it. Extremism whether it's nationalism, religious, cultural etc...is bad and there has been and always will be people who twist words, thoughts, slogans whatever, to suit their own evil agenda. It's all about control and power over other people and putting yourself at the top of the food chain as it were.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:24 pm

Cass wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Yet Bens view is flawed

And yet we are also seeing people who are doctors, who save lives, others highly educated people etc, join up with these bad people like ISIS.

So the point Ben makes is not quite right, because some people do not think it is bad and that its part of their religion to act as they do.

What you then have is a problem of what is defined as bad, as to the extremist Doctor, he will not view himself as bad, but carrying out the will of his deity.

No I agree with it. Extremism whether it's nationalism, religious, cultural etc...is bad and there has been and always will be people who twist words, thoughts, slogans whatever, to suit their own evil agenda. It's all about control and power over other people and putting yourself at the top of the food chain as it were.

But that is your perception Cass, as to the extremist, they are doing good and believe it is the will of their deity.
So to them, what you would and I consider bad, they would consider good.
This is why people are wrong to dismiss the links to religion being a major aspect of the problems of violence from religion in history.
If you have something that you believe is the will of your deity, then you would not see what you are doing as wrong.
This is the problem with the Abrahamic religions

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:28 pm

Cass wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:
Yet Bens view is flawed
And yet we are also seeing people who are doctors, who save lives, others highly educated people etc, join up with these bad people like ISIS.
So the point Ben makes is not quite right, because some people do not think it is bad and that its part of their religion to act as they do.
What you then have is a problem of what is defined as bad, as to the extremist Doctor, he will not view himself as bad, but carrying out the will of his deity.
No I agree with it. Extremism whether it's nationalism, religious, cultural etc...is bad and there has been and always will be people who twist words, thoughts, slogans whatever, to suit their own evil agenda. It's all about control and power over other people and putting yourself at the top of the food chain as it were.

EXACTLY, whether it be religion or politics - give those with little morality and a hidden agenda and you'll be getting fed what they want you to read/hear/feel instead of truth/facts and data. Happens in all cultures/race/ages/regions of this world. Rolling Eyes

by Cass Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:29 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Cass wrote:

No I agree with it. Extremism whether it's nationalism, religious, cultural etc...is bad and there has been and always will be people who twist words, thoughts, slogans whatever, to suit their own evil agenda. It's all about control and power over other people and putting yourself at the top of the food chain as it were.

But that is your perception Cass, as to the extremist, they are doing good and believe it is the will of their deity.
So to them, what you would and I consider bad, they would consider good.
This is why you people are wrong to dismiss the links to religion being a major aspect of the problems of violence from religion in history.
If you have something that you believe is the will of your deity, then you would not see what you are doing as wrong.
This is the problem with the Abrahamic religions

That's where the twisted part comes in.
Looking back at various atrocities that have been committed since I was born and sometimes it was a religious thing, sometimes the blame was on heavy metal music, politics, violent video games, movies, tv etc... my point being that it wouldn't matter what was the initial cause was about, the perpetrator would always be able to find something to justify it in their sick mind.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:33 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Cass wrote:
No I agree with it. Extremism whether it's nationalism, religious, cultural etc...is bad and there has been and always will be people who twist words, thoughts, slogans whatever, to suit their own evil agenda. It's all about control and power over other people and putting yourself at the top of the food chain as it were.
EXACTLY, whether it be religion or politics - give those with little morality and a hidden agenda and you'll be getting fed what they want you to read/hear/feel instead of truth/facts and data. Happens in all cultures/race/ages/regions of this world.

Missing thre point again, as where would an ISIS supporter get the belief it is okay to have sex slaves?
The religious doctrine istelf.
If you believe that you have to follow the will of a deity and that if you do not, you will be punished eternally, then this allows people to wrongly people they are actually doing good.
This is what people miss badly in regards to religion.
This is not an interpretation either but comes froim the hadiths, which I view as historically unreliable, but many Muslims views as deeds and acts of Muhammad, who they try to emulate.
It is from the hadiths, that most of the problems do stem in islam, which they also render the Quran redundent as a perfect and complete book. As many Muslims end up deifying the supposed deeds of Muhammad. If no such doctrines existed, then these acts would not be being committed by extremist Muslims

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:33 pm

Cass wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

But that is your perception Cass, as to the extremist, they are doing good and believe it is the will of their deity.
So to them, what you would and I consider bad, they would consider good.
This is why you people are wrong to dismiss the links to religion being a major aspect of the problems of violence from religion in history.
If you have something that you believe is the will of your deity, then you would not see what you are doing as wrong.
This is the problem with the Abrahamic religions

That's where the twisted part comes in.
Looking back at various atrocities that have been committed since I was born and sometimes it was a religious thing, sometimes the blame was on heavy metal music, politics, violent video games, movies, tv etc... my point being that it wouldn't matter what was the initial cause was about, the perpetrator would always be able to find something to justify it in their sick mind.

See my post to 4ever.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:15 pm

I do not think people really understand the concept of religion when it is based on fear.
As without this fear, the Abrahamic religions would be meaningless.

Fear is required as a form of control of the people who follow the religion.
So it plays on the insecurities of people over death and holds out a carrot stick for them. That is called paradise, but it comes with a catch. Either you abide by the rules, or you will suffer the most unimaginable pain for eternity. So you can see how fear is the driving factor and when people are led by fear and are totally controlled by this fear. They will in many cases do anything to avoid suffering, as they truly believe they will in a supposed after life, if they do not do the will of their deity.

Just think about that and how abhorant that is. When we see the very same happen daily by those who look to impose complete control on their victims. Look at those who suffer domestic violence, who are so cowed with fear, through the threat and actual acts of violence. That many sadly are so in fear, they are unable to go to the authorities. You see the same with the abuse of children, the sexual abuse of children, its all a control and a fear is used to control the victims. Yet when it is religion we ignore the same method being used and watch sadly as people become victims to fear, as a religious believer.

In every aspect we are appaled at such methods in our lives, but when it comes to religion we ignore the same hateful fear used to entice. You then have the claims made by the person committing domestic violence that they love their viticm and in some cases the victim truly believes they love their abuser. Again the same with religion, love is claimed to be given , but its conditional as it is within domestic violence. Either you abide by the rules or you will suffer.

Its then of no surpise that we see the 3 Abrahamic religions invented by men as forms of control to control a mass of people, as what better way to do so. Than to play off their fears and insecurities over death. This is why the beliefs are so formed from the time, that they make the notion that anything claiming to be a loving god as so ridiculous based on the belief systems that so actively discriminate against groups of people, within their belief systems.

This is why good people can end up doing bad, because they are so controlled by fear, they activelly believe this is what they are meant to in order to gain entry to Paradise. Within Islam they offer such an appalling concept, that death is valued more so over that of lfe through Martydom. Simply a believer is led to believe that all sins are forgiven, and they will be given a free pass into this make belief heaven. If they forgo their life dying through conflict in the defense of Allah. This is played off a belief to defend the faith from any transgressions and thus people so easily controlled by this fear. Will believe this is the best way to gain entry to heaven. Even more so when it is presented as the most glourious way to get into their heaven.

This is what people fail to grasp, if we viewed the Abrahamic deity based on someone we knew. We would give them such a wide birth or report them to the Police. As love is unconditional and the very fact fear is requrired in order for people to believe. Is what can make good people, do countless bad things. Without this fear, these religions would lose their drawing power. I mean what sort of story would it be if Jesus died on the cross to save mankind from their sins, if you were never going to face any punishements in an afterlife. You would ask why on earth would some go through such sufferig for nothing. As seen the draw to Jesus, is his saving of people, because there is a fear of an eternal punishment in the afterlife.

So when people claim religion is not the cause, they fail to understand how people are controled by fear itself, through the belief system. Its been so successful this system, that for over 2000 years we have seen countless violence committed and because many of those doing this, thought they were doing the will of their deity.

So to Ben's point on feelins and people are either good or bad and its bad that only do bad, is flawed and fails to understand these religions. Because in wars many good people have to do bad and kill others in order to defend themselves and those who they serve with. Countless soldiers suffer such nightmares for what they have seen and do in battle and many of them are good people.
So Ben is on the complete wrong track and its the very aspects of religion and its controls, that people refuse or do not want to talk about.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:56 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Which means Ben, then the root of the problem is found within the religion, as why would they follow bad, if not for the fact there is bad found within the religion.
I mean lets take a reality check, do you or have you not rightly been critical of the Christian right in America and even more so of the extremist element that plagues your society?

Good people follow the good, bad people follow the bad.

And where do they learn this bad from?

Religion

My point that you haven't addressed is that there is something wrong with them well before they encounter the ideas they use to justify what's wrong with them.

Check out some of these real-life examples:

* I work at a summer camp. One year a kid (he was 12 I think) killed a caterpillar and made his fellow campers really upset. Then, when I took this kid aside to get him to calm down and to explain why what he did was wrong, he said to me “I like killing things. What’s wrong with that?”

* I went to school from grade 4 through to high school with a girl who planned and carried out the murder of her own mother. She was a terrible, manipulative geranium and I hated her a lot. Everyone laughed at me. Teachers asked why I couldn’t be more like her. My parents shrugged it off as a crush. My “friends” wondered why I had such a hate-on for her.

High school roles around, she’s inexplicably absent for a long time. No one tells me why. Turns out they finally found out she was responsible for her mother’s death and she’d gotten away with it for a year.

* A friend of my parents is an elementary teacher. One day, while she was over for dinner, she told me a story about this creepy kid in one of her classes. This kid would only draw bodies and weird shit, and wouldn’t talk unless forced. Just a kid with a bad vibe around him. Years later, it turned out he pushed someone over the railing on a bridge. The person caught the railing, but the kid stomped on his fingers until he fell into the ravine below. Went on to kill a few more people before getting caught.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/charlie-shaw/2014/05/23-people-share-their-creepiest-stories-of-young-kids-with-sociopathic-behavior/

Obviously it's possible for people to be, for lack of a more precise term, "evil" from a very early age, and we're starting to understand the reasons. If they're really "learning" to do things like this, I doubt it's from any religious text.

Now, are there people like these children who learn about a religion, seize upon the violent teachings within it, and use those teachings to justify their cruelty? I'm certain of that.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:18 pm

Your point is flawed as we see people who have been doctors go to them and well educated people do so. What you are doing is looing for and inventing an excuse to deflect awy from the religion itself where its form of control is fear. You have failled to show that all terrorists were formley bad people before they turned to terrorism.You have given me an exmaple with failing to understand the points I made on religion and the fact you will find again soldiers commit bad things, by killing people, when they are good people. Which renders your point redundent and fails to explain how and why good people can end up doing bad things.

Refer to my previous post to fully understand

by Victorismyhero Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:27 pm

At least in the aspect of "shunning" and isolation from family and community it seems there is little to choose between islam and scientology

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:29 pm

Lord Foul wrote:At least in the aspect of "shunning" and isolation from family and community it seems there is little to choose between islam and scientology

Same with Christianity Victor.
Those who are literal believers will shun their own sons and daughters if homosexual.
I remember also growing up if someone Catholic, was going to marry a Prdoestant how they were also once shunned as well by the Catholic community. Its not as bad as those two, but it still very much happens.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:58 pm

Didge, I'm not really familiar with the doctor's story, but don't you think it was probably a bit more complicated than one day he woke up, remembered he's a Muslim and ran off to join ISIS?

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:17 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge, I'm not really familiar with the doctor's story, but don't you think it was probably a bit more complicated than one day he woke up, remembered he's a Muslim and ran off to join ISIS?

Its not very complicated at all, when you take into context the aspect of fear that is used to control. This is evident countless seen through history. People once used to think they were doing good by burning women, who they charged as being witches. This is the point you are missing on religion and its control. Its not the whole reason, but its the driving factor. Now I know very well you are looking at this as a criminologist would looking at a seriel killer. Who will have a history of traits like, torturing animals, setting fire to things etc. Of which I am sure that some of these do go onto be terrorist, but the point you are missing is that people who are controlled by fear. Take the First World War, where people were shot for cowardise, when in many cases they were suffering from shell shock. Were the soldiers who executed them bad people?

No

They were being controlled through fear themselves by their superior commanders to carry out an order, through fear of punishment if they refused. Those who refused to go over the top in the trenches again were being controlled by fear, with again a threat of the firing squad. can you not see how where fear is used within religion based around a hate narative, how people can easily be seduced into doing countless wrongs. The reality is there is many doctrines within the religions that endorse violent reactions to so called threats, which is easily played off to again enduce a fear and threat to Islam itself. As it has been done with Christianity in the past. This is how the origins of the cruisades started, a fear of islam. You see now the fear being promoted bhy those within islam, that it is out to be destroyed by the West.

I think one of the biggest problems in islam, is they view Muhaammad as Christians view jesus as the son of god. That does not mean they view Muhammad as the son of god, but they treat so called deeds and acts he did in life, as if they were direct commands from their mythical deity Allah. Most of the hadiths do not originate until centuries after he lived an what better way to justify and endorse violent acts, than by claiming the very person they most venerate after Allah did these things. It of course is again control being used by people to mislead people to then think what they are doing is good and commanded by their deity. That is the biggest problem in islam, how they venerate Muhammad to basically deity status. He was just a man who is supposed to have been taught the Surahs of Allah and yet they uphold deeds he supposedlly did. Which are in conflict or not in the Quran. At every turn though it is a fear and a control being used off that fear that can make people do the most appalling things, and yet twrongly think they are doing good. Religion happens to be one of the worst forms of this control based off fear, with the Abahamic faiths. Like i said, without this fear, these religions would be meaningless.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:18 pm

So he went off to medical school, saved lives as a doctor but was controlled by fear the entire time and at some point decided he'd rather kill people?

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:22 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:So he went off to medical school, saved lives as a doctor but was controlled by fear the entire time and at some point decided he'd rather kill people?

OMG.

How about he or she saved lives and was easily bought into the narative of hate I just explained above with a view islam is under threat.
Then he or she is then enduced further with how Muhammad reacted to such threats, with written documents like the hadiths.
Control is being used around fear and then guilt is applied around the concept of a family, Muslims, brothers and sisters under threat. They play on this guilt you are not protecting their sisters and brothers and most of all islam istelf.

Anything else?

by Fuzzy Zack Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:30 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:So he went off to medical school, saved lives as a doctor but was controlled by fear the entire time and at some point decided he'd rather kill people?

OMG.

How about he or she saved lives and was easily bought into the narative of hate I just explained above with a view islam is under threat.
Then he or she is then enduced further with how Muhammad reacted to such threats, with written documents like the hadiths.
Control is being used around fear and then guilt is applied around the concept of a family, Muslims, brothers and sisters under threat. They play on this guilt you are not protecting their sisters and brothers and most of all islam istelf.

Anything else?

Lol! He or she?

You don't even know what gender this doctor was and yet you claim to know their motivation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609617/NHS-treated-like-beggar-says-doctor-jihadi-Extremist-ranted-NHS-abandoning-dignity-shortly-getting-job-hospital.html

Ben was right. His motivation was not religious, as the article above proves.

Next time, give specific examples that are factually correct and you may convince someone.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:32 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

OMG.

How about he or she saved lives and was easily bought into the narative of hate I just explained above with a view islam is under threat.
Then he or she is then enduced further with how Muhammad reacted to such threats, with written documents like the hadiths.
Control is being used around fear and then guilt is applied around the concept of a family, Muslims, brothers and sisters under threat. They play on this guilt you are not protecting their sisters and brothers and most of all islam istelf.

Anything else?

Lol! He or she?

You don't even know what gender this doctor was and yet you claim to know their motivation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609617/NHS-treated-like-beggar-says-doctor-jihadi-Extremist-ranted-NHS-abandoning-dignity-shortly-getting-job-hospital.html

Ben was right. His motivation was not religious, as the article above proves.

Next time, give specific examples that are factually correct and you may convince someone.

Ben was wrong and you are wrong, it does not matter what gender as that is imaterial, but I know of a male doctor that has joined ISIS and of others.
I know as soons as you start with a lol, you have surrendered the argument
It does not need to have specifics, when i already brought well educated people that have joined ISIS and other extremist groups

Now go back and answer all my points unless of course you know you cannot

by Victorismyhero Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:34 pm

AANNNDDDD......

whilst you BOTH make sense....

I would posit that you are both wrong, from the purely philosophiocal point that there is no "good" or "evil"

merely points of view....

there exists "order" and "chaos"

but if you are "lawful good" or "lawful evil" then your only difference is a "value difference"

(lawful being interpreted as having a "code" of conduct that is consistant and within its own sphere, "honourable"...for instance both lawful good AND lawful evil may well recognise that lying is counter productive to a stable society and therefor chaotic in nature)

so didge ...YOU may consider "abrahmism" as "evil"......I dont....I consider that some elements of it do not accord to a lawful and honourable code and are therefor "chaotic" AND i also acept that the basic philosophy of abrahamism is diametrically opposed to (and therefor the "enemy" of) freedom of thought and action.

which is NOT a clash of "good and evil" but rather a clash of "my values against their values"

consider this ...YOU as an unrepentant and unappologetic athiest are as evil to the islamist as HE is to you....

and the difference......Your "values"

NO-ONE can define EVIL....even the most studied theologist can no more define evil than the best philosopher, except in terms of something diametrically opposed in value to them

Something can be inimical to you without of necessity being "evil" in the accepted sense....

by Fuzzy Zack Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:36 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! He or she?

You don't even know what gender this doctor was and yet you claim to know their motivation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609617/NHS-treated-like-beggar-says-doctor-jihadi-Extremist-ranted-NHS-abandoning-dignity-shortly-getting-job-hospital.html

Ben was right. His motivation was not religious, as the article above proves.

Next time, give specific examples that are factually correct and you may convince someone.

Ben was wrong and you are wrong, it does not matter what gender as that is imaterial, but I know of a male doctor that has joined ISIS and of others.
I know as soons as you start with a lol, you have surrendered the argument
It does not need to have specifics, when i already brought well educated people that have joined ISIS and other extremist groups

Now go back and answer all my points unless of course you know you cannot

I just proved your entire premise is wrong.

Without specifics, your generalisties can easily be proven wrong.

I repeat - you didn't even know the gender of the Doctor. Your claim to know any other facts loses total credibility.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:38 pm

Not wrong at all Victor as i stated it is what people perceive as good and bad.
Which again I made the point throughout that they will perceive they are doing good.
Never brought up evil, in fact i think youa re the only one that has, but to take the life of someone is bad, when you are robbing them of their life, of which we all have a right to a life, enshrined in international law.
So how was i wrong?
I stated I would see this as wrong and that is my perception on the matter, but that is nothing more than a deflection to the main points at hand, which is that fear is being used as a control.
As to other doctors

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/02/young-uk-doctors-urged-not-to-join-isis

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/australian-doctor-joins-isis-medical-team-in-jihad-against-the-west/news-story/115d3f0220f333b4935473668d7294ac

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:40 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben was wrong and you are wrong, it does not matter what gender as that is imaterial, but I know of a male doctor that has joined ISIS and of others.
I know as soons as you start with a lol, you have surrendered the argument
It does not need to have specifics, when i already brought well educated people that have joined ISIS and other extremist groups

Now go back and answer all my points unless of course you know you cannot

I just proved your entire premise is wrong.

Without specifics, your generalisties can easily be proven wrong.

I repeat - you didn't even know the gender of the Doctor. Your claim to know any other facts loses total credibility.

I just posted more doctors, its irrevant the gender of the doctor, as its about the control based off fear and a fear based off islam under threat

You do not need speciifics, of which Ben did off his point on people being bad previously before joing extremists

Now go back and answer my points becuase you have failed to prove anything other than being under control yourself due to an isecurity of death and a mythical hell in an after life

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:48 pm

by Ben Reilly Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:59 pm

Here's what nobody has been able to answer:

1) If Islam is responsible for terrorism, and

2) The world has 1.6 billion Muslims, then

3) Why aren't there 1.6 billion terrorists?

What exactly are we saying here -- that terrorists are the "real" Muslims and the rest are milquetoast Muslims?

That the teachings of Islam contain some sort of trigger that can turn happy healthy people into killers?

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:02 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Here's what nobody has been able to answer:

1) If Islam is responsible for terrorism, and

2) The world has 1.6 billion Muslims, then

3) Why aren't there 1.6 billion terrorists?

What exactly are we saying here -- that terrorists are the "real" Muslims and the rest are milquetoast Muslims?

That the teachings of Islam contain some sort of trigger that can turn happy healthy people into killers?

Yes i have

1) Religions are the control and justification for terrorism, based around a fear.

2) Not all Muslims are led by a narative of hate or have it in them to kill people, or are not completely controlled by fear.

3) See above

by Original Quill Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:32 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Here's what nobody has been able to answer:

1) If Islam is responsible for terrorism, and

2) The world has 1.6 billion Muslims, then

3) Why aren't there 1.6 billion terrorists?

What exactly are we saying here -- that terrorists are the "real" Muslims and the rest are milquetoast Muslims?

That the teachings of Islam contain some sort of trigger that can turn happy healthy people into killers?

Yes i have

1) Religions are the control and justification for terrorism, based around a fear.

Long ago, the only terrorism was that of the KKK. The KKK was originally a Christian sect, but hardly anymore. Religion is neither the control nor the justification, yet KKK terrorism still persists.

by Guest Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Yes i have

1) Religions are the control and justification for terrorism, based around a fear.

Long ago, the only terrorism was that of the KKK. It was originally a Christian sect, but hardly anymore. Religion is neither the control nor the justification, yet KKK terrorism still persists.

Incorrect.
The forerunner of modern terrorism was formed by the Old Man of the Mountain, who formed the Assassins.
Funnily enough this is an islamic sect.
It was started by the Grand Master Hassan Ibn al-Sabbah.
He indoctrinated fanatical men to muder his enemies, which were basically suicide missions. Its is from these suicide squads that the word Fedayeen was derived, which is funnely enough still used by the Palestinians terrorists today. Never even denied there is not political or sectarian terrorism either, so your point is moot. There has been other since also not islamic, but through religions as well, like the Lord's ressistance Army and the Army of God, both Christian. We see also with the birth ofd Wahhabism, terrorism against the Ottomans, centuries ago, before any colonialism to the Middle East, proving that this left wing apologism claim, blaiming colonialism, is sheer nonsese. They butchered and destroyed people and historical places, of which we are seeing the exact same thing today.

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