If there was a referendum to bring back the death penalty..

in either GB or the state you live in, do you think it would pass?

How would you vote?

Against, I've lived too long and seen too many people who turned out to be innocent jailed for murder.


As an aside, in the States pharmaceutical companies are now refused to allow their drugs to be used for the death penalty.

Usage of lethal injection in the US.   State uses only this method.   State uses this method primarily but also has other methods.   State once used this method, but does not today.   State once adopted this method, but dropped before its use.   State has never adopted this method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

With the problems that obtaining the necessary combination drugs for lethal injection and now Pfizer's latest decision...gas chambers/hanging/firing squads/electrocutions may see a increase in method of choice.

Pfizer ban on lethal drug sales complicates executions in 20 states
Published May 17, 2016 - Reuters                     

The death chamber and the steel bars of the viewing room are seen at the state penitentiary in Huntsville, Texas (Copyright Reuters 2016)
More than 20 U.S. states that use a combination of drugs to carry out lethal injections will find it harder to conduct executions due to Pfizer's ban on sales of its chemicals, but the move will have little impact on the handful that rely on a single drug.
The pharmaceutical giant's move last week cuts off the last major U.S. source for drugs in the deadly mixes, and it adds to the difficulties of states that were already struggling to procure chemicals for lethal injections.
Among the states affected are Florida and Oklahoma, which have been among the leaders in executions since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976.
Drug scarcity is also an obstacle for Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee and Wyoming.
Since many mostly European drug makers began banning sales of their products for use in executions about five years ago over ethical concerns, U.S. states have often turned to lightly regulated compounding pharmacies, which can mix chemicals.
That has resulted in a string of lawsuits challenging secrecy in procurement and the quality of the mixes provided. Middlemen who flout Pfizer's ban could face sanctions.
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/05/17/pfizer-ban-on-lethal-drug-sales-complicates-executions-in-20-states.html

Complex issue; but one that I support whole heartedly. 
Timothy McVeigh - Boston Bombers - Anyone Involved in the WTC disaster - mass murderers - heinous crimes that have subjected children to violence and their death = the predator has lost his/her right to BREATHE

I would vote no without hesitation. That's not because of miscarriages of justice, I just think that no one has the right to end someone's life in such a cowardly manner.

What about Keith Allan Howard and Albert Woodfox, released after 33 and 43 years at the beginning of this year after DNA evidence showed they were innocent.

Sorry 4Ever, but there are so many, both in the USA and here who are proved to be innocent many years down the line.

No apology necessary, dear friend; we aren't always going to agree 100% on any social issue...and I'd shudder to think of the huge number of minorities that the southern states have executed via their antiquated due process system of stacking the deck and fudging evidence. 

But our society has to have some method for those anti-social humans that will never be rehabilitated - aren't going to slide back into our society - and keeping them housed in LIFERS PRISON is just as inhumane to me as ending their life would be!

Raggamuffin wrote:I would vote no without hesitation. That's not because of miscarriages of justice, I just think that no one has the right to end someone's life in such a cowardly manner.

Hmmm, then our court system and laws have moot point and I'm often curious as to how those unfortunate victims would vote - if they'd been given an option while begging for their lives? 

Sassy posted -

"Against, I've lived too long and seen too many people who turned out to be innocent jailed for murder."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How many people who turned out to be innocent have you REALLY seen jailed for murder, give us a figure? Sassy.

You knowing so many seems so strange, feel free to give details if possible.

I am in favour of the death penalty, nowadays with DNA things are safer than ever to convict.

May I add, I would willingly spring the trap door on paedos whilst eating my dinner, I kid thee not.

Stormee wrote:Sassy posted -

"Against, I've lived too long and seen too many people who turned out to be innocent jailed for murder."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How many people who turned out to be innocent have you REALLY seen jailed for murder, give us a figure? Sassy.

You knowing so many seems so strange, feel free to give details if possible.

I am in favour of the death penalty, nowadays with DNA things are safer than ever to convict.

May I add, I would willingly spring the trap door on paedos whilst eating my dinner, I kid thee not.

What {if you could choose} would your preference of death penalty be:
injection/gas chamber/hanging/electrocution/firing squad...do you have a preferable way?

I used to be a 'injection' only preferable; but then the last couple of BOTCHED EXECUTIONS in Oklahoma have left me rethinking that option   now I'm back to 'Electrocution'...

4EVER2 wrote:

Stormee wrote:Sassy posted -

"Against, I've lived too long and seen too many people who turned out to be innocent jailed for murder."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

How many people who turned out to be innocent have you REALLY seen jailed for murder, give us a figure? Sassy.

You knowing so many seems so strange, feel free to give details if possible.

I am in favour of the death penalty, nowadays with DNA things are safer than ever to convict.

May I add, I would willingly spring the trap door on paedos whilst eating my dinner, I kid thee not.

What {if you could choose} would your preference of death penalty be:
injection/gas chamber/hanging/electrocution/firing squad...do you have a preferable way?

I used to be a 'injection' only preferable; but then the last couple of BOTCHED EXECUTIONS in Oklahoma have left me rethinking that option   now I'm back to 'Electrocution'...

For men I would make them beg to die with various torture techniques I would use to prolong their mega pain but be banned for posting them here.

Females I would find it a tad difficult, I would spring the trap door or injection, the exceedingly horrific cases I would consider somePAIN first before them begging to die,.

I swing like a pendulum back and forth on this one.

Death for: (first degree murder) killers and paedophiles and rapists

Prison for: all other crimes

Death by electrocution I suppose - I'd say injection if they could get it right but really, I don't care how much a killer/paedophile/racist suffers.

For men I would make them beg to die with various torture techniques I would use to prolong their mega pain but be banned for posting them here.

Females I would find it a tad difficult, I would spring the trap door or injection, the exceedingly horrific cases I would consider somePAIN first before them begging to die,.

WOW...Stormee; you're all about going 'MEDIEVAL' on those really bad-a$$es. 

Iron Maiden - the RACK - boil'm in oil - cat-O-9-tails...good golly mister.  Not something I'm into; not even for the worst child rapist - molester - animal abuser I've pulled animals away from. 
I'm a 'killem' but make it quick and swift.

What's the problem with this injection business? I'M no expert but i thought cyanide brought death within 1 minute, or am i wrong?

I would vote yes ...only for the most heinous crimes where there was no chance of release, and obviously if guilt was proved beyond shadow of doubt.
I agree with Stormee . DNA testing has been discovered since we last had the death sentence here.

Hanging is barbaric, I would opt for lethal injection....and I wonder how the hell a couple of injections have gone wrong recently in America.
If a person can be knocked out when they are having a relatively minor op, God knows how mistakes can happen when they are being put to death.

Raggamuffin wrote:I would vote no without hesitation. That's not because of miscarriages of justice, I just think that no one has the right to end someone's life in such a cowardly manner.

I don't think it's cowardly, I think it's justice if someone has commited an act so vile they wont ever be released.

I don't see it as revenge either, I see it as a quick and hopefully  painless solution to get rid of someone who has caused great pain and suffering and forfeited the right to remain in society..
I don't go along with the theory to let them suffer for the rest of their lives....to me that is far more vengeful.

nicko wrote:What's the problem with this injection business?    I'M no expert but i thought cyanide brought death within 1 minute,    or am i wrong?

Well, you were thinking like I was; but it's actually a 3 stage process

Lethal Injection
In 1977, Oklahoma became the first state to adopt lethal injection as a means of execution, though it would be five more years until Charles Brooks would become the first person executed by lethal injection in Texas on December 2, 1982. Today, all of the 32 states that have the death penalty use this method. When this method is used, the condemned person is usually bound to a gurney and a member of the execution team positions several heart monitors on this skin. Two needles (one is a back-up) are then inserted into usable veins, usually in the inmates arms. Long tubes connect the needle through a hole in a cement block wall to several intravenous drips. The first is a harmless saline solution that is started immediately. Then, at the warden's signal, a curtain is raised exposing the inmate to the witnesses in an adjoining room. Then, the inmate is injected with sodium thiopental - an anesthetic, which puts the inmate to sleep. Next flows pavulon or pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the entire muscle system and stops the inmate's breathing. Finally, the flow of potassium chloride stops the heart. Death results from anesthetic overdose and respiratory and cardiac arrest while the condemned person is unconscious. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) Medical ethics preclude doctors from participating in executions. However, a doctor will certify the inmate is dead. This lack of medical participation can be problematic because often injections are performed by inexperienced technicians or orderlies. If a member of the execution team injects the drugs into a muscle instead of a vein, or if the needle becomes clogged, extreme pain can result. Many prisoners have damaged veins resulting from intravenous drug use and it is sometimes difficult to find a usable vein, resulting in long delays while the inmate remains strapped to the gurney. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991)
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods#injection

It wasn't until the last really long drawn out huge debacle in Oklahoma that I looked deeper into just how fast this could how go south and what those nimrods should have done and where they really messed up.  Oklahoma can't do much right and this time they really F'd up.

BOTCHED EXECUTIONS  the link was up there so I added it down here too.  Interesting reading and OMG --- how screwed up could those officials have made it any worse???  God only knows!

4EVER2 wrote:

For men I would make them beg to die with various torture techniques I would use to prolong their mega pain but be banned for posting them here.

Females I would find it a tad difficult, I would spring the trap door or injection, the exceedingly horrific cases I would consider somePAIN first before them begging to die,.

WOW...Stormee; you're all about going 'MEDIEVAL' on those really bad-a$$es. 

Iron Maiden - the RACK - boil'm in oil - cat-O-9-tails...good golly mister.  Not something I'm into; not even for the worst child rapist - molester - animal abuser I've pulled animals away from. 
I'm a 'killem' but make it quick and swift.

You are not allowed to refer to boiling oil, it is a banning offence, lol

If you're going to have a system in which very few innocent people are put to death, that system is going to be far more expensive than if your worst penalty was "life in prison," which should really be called "death in prison" because that's eventually what happens.

Death in prison is severe enough for me.

better 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent is put to death....

Lord Foul wrote:better 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent is put to death....

I wonder how many more innocent people would die if 1000 guilty ones went free to kill again?

I wonder how many innocent people would die these days if you did kill an innocent?
depending on the victims family.....it could be an extraordinarily large number

starting with
the judge
prosecutor and everyone tied to him

the police involved

the forensic team involved

witnesses

and anyone else a vengeful "family member" deemed culpable...

this is 2016 not 1800 and people in general are not scared witless by the mere fact of "authority"


AND...given the propensity for "mission creep" and the lack of moral fiber in those supposedly "in charge"

how long before you could be hanged for parking on a double yellow??

We seem to be sinking into the depths of stupidity now.

With modern technology and DNA testing, the chances of anyone being executed wrongly are a million to one.

and whats to stop it being misapplied...when it suits....

how long before we got hangings for crimes against the state?


and getting hung for parking on double yellows isnt so far removed from possibility as you woud immagine....

vis


we justify the DP for murder...now why...for the actuall taking of life or the inherent "badness" of it
IF you wish to justify it then for paedos you HAVE to admit that its for the badness...i.e intent

well....surely, moraly at least that should include attempted murder since the INTENT is the same....

IF that is the case then negligence can also be included since negligence is the attitude "i dont care"
I am going to do "x" and if it kills someone tough

(the attitude of the drunk driver)

now parking on double yellows can in some instances result in someones death...thus providing evidence of negligent intent

so its the gallows for parking on double yellow lines...

ok a warped train of ideas...but non the less


I guess what I'm saying is.......who will watch the watchers?????

Syl wrote:We seem to be sinking into the depths of stupidity now.

With modern technology and DNA testing, the chances of anyone being executed wrongly are a million to one.

What's alarming is that murder can be committed and the perp is out in a few years and very often offends again.

Nor you may be assured, does the existance of DNA protect the innocent if "the govt/rich people" want em dead.....

the criminal justice system is NOT incorruptible...

and ...in any case ...I wouldnt want the state taking revenge for me....

if that degree of revenge is needed, i'd sooner make it personal.......

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:We seem to be sinking into the depths of stupidity now.

With modern technology and DNA testing, the chances of anyone being executed wrongly are a million to one.

What's alarming is that murder can be committed and the perp is out in a few years and very often offends again.  

true....


but the answer is simple....

fully 60% of those in jail dont need to be in there....

they have comitted relatively minor crimes and or dumb ass fairly harmless crimes....added to which there are a large number of debtors in prison...

it needs sorting


jails should be graded from reasonable to downright nasty, and what you do determines which level of unpleaseantness you get

and ..life should mean life possibly 24/7 in a cold dark dungeon with rats and gruel for company

Lord Foul wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

What's alarming is that murder can be committed and the perp is out in a few years and very often offends again.  

true....


but the answer is simple....

fully 60% of those in jail dont need to be in there....

they have comitted relatively minor crimes and or dumb ass fairly harmless crimes....added to which there are a large number of debtors in prison...

it needs sorting


jails should be graded from reasonable to downright nasty, and what you do determines which level of unpleaseantness you get

and ..life should mean life  possibly 24/7 in a cold dark dungeon with rats and gruel for company

They should bring back hard labour. I mean that. Hard work never killed anyone, and it would ensure they'd think twice about considering prison a fucking holiday camp.

Lord Foul wrote:Nor you may be assured, does the existance of DNA protect the innocent if "the govt/rich people" want em dead.....

the criminal justice system is NOT incorruptible...

and ...in any case ...I wouldnt want the state taking revenge for me....

if that degree of revenge is needed, i'd sooner make it personal.......

If the government/rich people want you dead I doubt a trial is even needed.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

What's alarming is that murder can be committed and the perp is out in a few years and very often offends again.  

true....


but the answer is simple....

fully 60% of those in jail dont need to be in there....

they have comitted relatively minor crimes and or dumb ass fairly harmless crimes....added to which there are a large number of debtors in prison...

it needs sorting


jails should be graded from reasonable to downright nasty, and what you do determines which level of unpleaseantness you get

and ..life should mean life  possibly 24/7 in a cold dark dungeon with rats and gruel for company

They should bring back hard labour.  I mean that.   Hard work never killed anyone, and it would ensure they'd think twice about considering prison a fucking holiday camp.  

"those who say hard work never killed anyone, have never done any"

(i just had to say that)

Lord Foul wrote:Nor you may be assured, does the existance of DNA protect the innocent if "the govt/rich people" want em dead.....

the criminal justice system is NOT incorruptible...

and ...in any case ...I wouldnt want the state taking revenge for me....

if that degree of revenge is needed, i'd sooner make it personal.......

And it's not just for you -- it's for the entire society the state represents. So legally, every person the state of Texas executes is doing it on my behalf. I can't overstate how much I hate that.

yup, agreed ben

if someone did something to me/mine that warranted their extinction...Id want to be the cause of that extinction directly AND look em right in the eye as their lights went out.

anything else is merely a side show for the howling mob.....

BTW ben...you have a message in the loft (mods room)

Lord Foul wrote:anything else is merely a side show for the howling mob.....

So the elderly couple who's grandchild is raped and murdered and wants to see the undisputed perpetrator face justice by death penalty is classed as the 'howling mob' because they don't have the means/strength or desire to  mete out the justice themselves then?

How macho.

Syl wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:anything else is merely a side show for the howling mob.....

So the elderly couple who's  grandchild is  raped and murdered and wants to see the undisputed perpetrator face justice by death penalty is classed as the 'howling mob' because they don't have the means/strength or desire to  mete out the justice themselves then?

How macho.

obviously there are going to be exceptions......
but even in that case you could strap the bastard down and let the old folks loose on him with a blade/gun/the "kill switch"

the point being if YOU want someone dead for a crime against you/yours...at least have the moral courage to do it yourself......

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

So the elderly couple who's  grandchild is  raped and murdered and wants to see the undisputed perpetrator face justice by death penalty is classed as the 'howling mob' because they don't have the means/strength or desire to  mete out the justice themselves then?

How macho.

obviously there are going to be exceptions......
but even in that case you could strap the bastard down and let the old folks loose on him with a blade/gun/the "kill switch"

the point being if YOU want someone dead for a crime against you/yours...at least have the moral courage to do it yourself......

Have you been watching too many Charles Bronson movies?

I saw the family of Leslie Ann Down and Keith Bennet tirelessly campaign every weekend for years on the market near where their kids went missing.... for justice.
They never got it....but had the state dealt with Hindley and Brady swiftly when it was established beyond all doubt that they had murdered their children they would have been at peace...as it was they died without that.

Why should people who have suffered enough have to have blood on their hands....that's what courts are for.

if there is a DP then they would have blood on their hands regardless....

you cant escape moral responsibility by having the deed done by "proxy"

and what of those who with merciful goodness want clemency for the killer....

would you allow them to say NO.....?...and accept that, commuting the sentence to life perhaps?

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

So the elderly couple who's  grandchild is  raped and murdered and wants to see the undisputed perpetrator face justice by death penalty is classed as the 'howling mob' because they don't have the means/strength or desire to  mete out the justice themselves then?

How macho.

obviously there are going to be exceptions......
but even in that case you could strap the bastard down and let the old folks loose on him with a blade/gun/the "kill switch"

the point being if YOU want someone dead for a crime against you/yours...at least have the moral courage to do it yourself......

I will have to stop calling you 'elmer'... and start calling you 'Vic the vindictive' instead...!

nowt vindictive about it it tommy....

so many people favour the DP ....untill its mooted that they would have to hand out the punishment personally

its all part of how wussified the people have become...

moral cowardice at its worst, as I said there may be exceptions...folks so elderly or disabled they cant do it...so yes they could appoint an official "champion" to do the deed...but if possible they should have to be present and CLOSE....

after all..if you condone the taking of a life, for whatever reason......you had best be prepared to do it yourself...



quote from a book I read ages ago........

Lord Foul wrote:if there is a DP then they would have blood on their hands regardless....

you cant escape moral responsibility by having the deed done by "proxy"

and what of those who with merciful goodness want clemency for the killer....

would you allow them to say NO.....?...and accept that, commuting the sentence to life perhaps?

If there is a death penalty, it's decided by a judge and jury without malice.
To carry out the deed yourself is wrong on so many levels.
People who are closely connected cannot be relied on to make fair and unemotional judgment....so I'm afraid your argument is weak.

no its not..because YOU are making a foolish assumption

NOWHERE did I say that it should be an "extra judicial" that would be wrong as "you" personally will not be in posession of all facts...

there should be a proper fair trial as per normal and if invoked the DP declared by a judge....

but the actual carrying out of that penalty should be down to the "offended"..either that or they state mercy and allow the commutation of the DP to life......

Lord Foul wrote:yup, agreed ben

if someone did something to me/mine that warranted their extinction...Id want to be the cause of that extinction directly AND look em right in the eye as their lights went out.

Nowt vindictive about it eh...!?

mmmm...ok ....maybe .... If you stick to the absolute definition of vindictive.....(a desire for revenge)

but at  the same time if the victim/offended derive any satisfaction over a judicial execution they are also vindictive (i.e. they get their revenge) AND, I would still claim are moral cowards...

this is a bit like the argument wherby a meat eater condemns hunting  

Lord Foul wrote:no its not..because YOU are making a foolish assumption

NOWHERE did I say that it should be an "extra judicial" that would be wrong as "you" personally will not be in posession of all facts...

there should be a proper fair trial as per normal and if invoked the DP declared by a judge....

but the actual carrying out of that penalty should be down to the "offended"..either that or they state mercy and allow the commutation of the DP to life......

So you are expecting the person who has lost someone through a heinous murder to carry out the execution themselves if found guilty by a judge and jury?

Why should they? It's not their job to legally kill someone...it's the job of the state.

There is a difference between wanting justice carried out and the wanting to carry it out personally... revenge style...

The death penalty isn't about revenge anyway.

If they are not prepared to do it then why do it by proxy?

have we become such a society of weaklings?

hell, if there was revenge to be had, AND, added to which I would need to be convinced of the need seperately to the justice system..i.e i'd attend the trial and make my own mind up to ....I'd accept a not guilty...but I'd want to "review" for my self a "guilty verdict" and all mitigation...but then If convinced.......I would want to be the one sending said killer to the beyond.....

doing any less makes me a craven coward.....

listen to yourself

"oh...i think he should die...but I'm too squeamish/scared/weak to do it myself....I'd prefer not to know the gory details"

If you couldnt do it yourself then your desire for revenge is not great enough to justify having it done...
and lets face it revenge is the ONLY justifiable reason for a death penalty, and revenge, like it or not...is personal...NOT societal....

Syl wrote:The death penalty isn't about revenge anyway.

and Tommy


to answer...yes it is ...otherwise you are doing something rather evil....

but I'll let you say what you think its about first

Lord Foul wrote:yup, agreed ben

if someone did something to me/mine that warranted their extinction...Id want to be the cause of that extinction directly AND look em right in the eye as their lights went out.

Then as a 'VICTIMS' family, you'd be asked 'if you wanted to attend the execution, and be awarded a chair right in full view of the perps last moments on this earth'; but if you and Ben have your way - you'd put all of the penal code and those hired to do those jobs out of work because you have 'ISSUES'? 

Lordy, and you call it cowardice that our laws are set up for the judicial system to turn this death sentence over to the penal system so it's done accordingly ---  
Hmm, well I believe in our screwed up judicial system - it's all we have {albeit, it's needing some serious overhaul} but it's eons improved from the days of yore when England tossed people into the dungeon for such heinous things as: being a thief/refusing to divorce/adultery/debtors prison/treason/hierarchy - and a variety of other gentle names awarded by the gentry whenever it suited them.

Yes, we've come a long way; and unfortunately the ACLU involvement in the method of dealing with those hardened criminals has left the methods more to the soft peddle side than the 'hard labor' {busting rock/chain gang days} are few and far between.  But there are still a couple of places I've read where they do highway labor and that isn't for the faint of heart and this is the southern states where the temperatures are horrid and humid as well.  
Here's an interesting ACLU opinion piece you might enjoy if you and Ben haven't read it yet!  here's just a snippet >

The latest incarnation of this betrayal of the Bill of Rights is the ACLU’s refusal to support criminal justice reform legislation that strengthens the mens rea requirement for most federal criminal statutes. Translated from the Latin as “guilty mind,” mens rea is a legal phrase that describes the mental state of mind formed prior to the commission of a crime. Traditionally, the law requires the government to prove that a defendant was aware of and intended to break the law before he can be punished for doing so.
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/opinion/article_877081f0-1c05-11e6-86b4-97f8785388fa.html

A judge and jury decides whether a person is guilty or not....am I right?
The victims family do not.
So if the death penalty was reinstated and the man in the dock was found to be guilty it would not be the victim or the family who came to that verdict....it would be an impartial group of people who considered the case without emotion or prejudice.

Why on earth should the people who have been victims of the guilty party have to then act like the executioner....it's not a' Death wish' film ...it's real life.