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About Us & RulesWe Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
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We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:04 pm
It’s time to confront Islamism head on—without cries of Islamophobia. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry.
Ours was an inauspicious first meeting. Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist turned liberal reformer, had just participated in a public debate about the nature of Islam. Though he had spent five years in an Egyptian prison for attempting to restore a medieval “caliphate,” Nawaz argued in favor of the motion that night, affirming that Islam is, indeed, “a religion of peace.” Harris, a well-known atheist and strident critic of Islam, had been in the audience. At a dinner later that evening, Harris was asked to comment on the event. He addressed his remarks directly to Nawaz:
Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?
Harris: What?
Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?
It was good that we weren’t seated at the same table, because we were now more apes than scholars. The conversation ended abruptly, and with bad feelings. Happily, the room quickly erupted with dozens of parallel conversations, diffusing the tension. Talking about Islam today is a dangerous business. Disagreements about the role this religion plays in the world have become a wellspring of intolerance and violence. Cartoonists have been massacred in Paris to shouts of “We have avenged the Prophet!” Secular bloggers have been hacked to death in Bangladesh. Embassies have burned over YouTube videos. And young men and women by the thousands have abandoned their lives in free societies to join the apocalyptic savagery of ISIS. For years, Western politicians and commentators have struggled to understand this phenomenon. And many have struggled not to understand it, denying any link between “Muslim extremism” and the religion of Islam.
Honest conversation about the need for reform within Islam has become a necessity. So we began our dialogue anew, and initial doubts about each other’s integrity and motives were soon replaced by mutual trust and respect. Neither of us would have imagined having such a productive conversation with the other 10 years ago. The result is now a short book, Islam and the Future of Tolerance. What most discussions of “Muslim extremism” miss, and what is obfuscated at every turn by commentators like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Karen Armstrong—and even Nicholas Kristof and Ben Affleck—is the power of specific religious ideas such as martyrdom, apostasy, blasphemy, prophecy, and honor. These ideas do not represent the totality of Islam, but neither are they foreign to it. Nor do they exist in precisely the same way in other faiths. There is a reason why no one is losing sleep over the threat posed by Jain and Quaker “extremists.” Specific doctrines matter.
Since 9/11, the whole focus of the international community has been on destroying terrorist organizations like al Qaeda and ISIS, as if they were mere criminal gangs that needed to be disrupted operationally. The briefest survey of the state of the world, from North Africa to the North-West Frontier, demonstrates that this strategy has failed, abysmally.
The underlying ideology—we call it “Islamism”—has metastasized and must be confronted directly. After more than a decade of conventional, physical wars, we must finally wage an effective war of ideas. Islamism, often referred to as “political Islam,” is the desire to impose a version of Islam on the rest of society. Political Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood, generally do not believe in resorting to violence, though there are different attitudes even among Brotherhood franchises toward democratic participation, ranging from post-Islamists like the Ennadha Party in Tunisia, to semi-authoritarian conservatives, like South-Asia’s Jamat-e-Islami. “Jihadism,” on the other hand, is the use of force to spread Islamism.
Political Islam is an offshoot of religious Islam and draws much of its inspiration from the Quran and the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). To be sure, it does not represent the faith in all its forms, but unless challenged, the underlying problems of religious literalism, dogmatism, and pious intolerance are left untreated and continue to spread. A poll in 2014, published in the Saudi-owned newspaper al-Hayat, found that 92 percent of Saudis believe that ISIS “conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law.” Clearly, ISIS has something to do with Islam. That something is borne of a literalist reading of specific texts within the canon, a reading that many Saudi-based Salafists (a literalist movement that forms state-sanctioned Islam in Saudi Arabia) and ISIS share:
“And as for the male and female thief, cut off their hands as recompense for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.” (al-Qur’an 5:38)
Of course, the Bible contains barbaric passages, as well. But there are historical and theological reasons why Christians and Jews can now easily ignore them. Unfortunately, out of excessive concern not to appear biased, many liberals consider any discussion of the special problem posed by Islamism to be a sign of bigotry. This attitude helps bar the door to reform. To call ISIS “un-Islamic,” as President Obama has repeatedly done, and as Prime Minister Cameron recently stopped doing, is to play a dangerous game with words. Calling out and combating the ideology of Islamism is the only way that non-Muslims can help those liberal Muslims who wish to reform their faith from within. And failing to do so means abandoning the most vulnerable in Muslim communities—women, gays, apostates, freethinkers, and intellectuals—people like Nobel Peace Prize nominee Raif Badawi, who is being lashed in Saudi Arabia for the “crime” of writing a blog.
We do not entirely agree on how, and how fully, religion should be subjected to criticism in our society, but we both believe that merely repeating platitudes like “Islam is a religion of peace,” despite evidence that many zealots see it as a religion of war, blurs the line between truly peaceful and tolerant Muslims and those who aspire to drag humanity back to the seventh century. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry. Cries of “Islamophobia,” which have become ubiquitous on college campuses and in much of the liberal press, have been used to silence legitimate criticism. In an open society, no idea can be above scrutiny, just as no people should be beneath dignity.
We can testify to the power of honest dialogue on these topics. Though we initially met under circumstances that were overtly hostile, we pressed forward with civility and ended in genuine friendship. Without this type of engagement, the only alternative we see is continued intolerance and violence. And we have all seen far too much of that already.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/15/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-s-jihad-problem.html
Ours was an inauspicious first meeting. Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist turned liberal reformer, had just participated in a public debate about the nature of Islam. Though he had spent five years in an Egyptian prison for attempting to restore a medieval “caliphate,” Nawaz argued in favor of the motion that night, affirming that Islam is, indeed, “a religion of peace.” Harris, a well-known atheist and strident critic of Islam, had been in the audience. At a dinner later that evening, Harris was asked to comment on the event. He addressed his remarks directly to Nawaz:
Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?
Harris: What?
Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?
It was good that we weren’t seated at the same table, because we were now more apes than scholars. The conversation ended abruptly, and with bad feelings. Happily, the room quickly erupted with dozens of parallel conversations, diffusing the tension. Talking about Islam today is a dangerous business. Disagreements about the role this religion plays in the world have become a wellspring of intolerance and violence. Cartoonists have been massacred in Paris to shouts of “We have avenged the Prophet!” Secular bloggers have been hacked to death in Bangladesh. Embassies have burned over YouTube videos. And young men and women by the thousands have abandoned their lives in free societies to join the apocalyptic savagery of ISIS. For years, Western politicians and commentators have struggled to understand this phenomenon. And many have struggled not to understand it, denying any link between “Muslim extremism” and the religion of Islam.
Honest conversation about the need for reform within Islam has become a necessity. So we began our dialogue anew, and initial doubts about each other’s integrity and motives were soon replaced by mutual trust and respect. Neither of us would have imagined having such a productive conversation with the other 10 years ago. The result is now a short book, Islam and the Future of Tolerance. What most discussions of “Muslim extremism” miss, and what is obfuscated at every turn by commentators like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Karen Armstrong—and even Nicholas Kristof and Ben Affleck—is the power of specific religious ideas such as martyrdom, apostasy, blasphemy, prophecy, and honor. These ideas do not represent the totality of Islam, but neither are they foreign to it. Nor do they exist in precisely the same way in other faiths. There is a reason why no one is losing sleep over the threat posed by Jain and Quaker “extremists.” Specific doctrines matter.
Since 9/11, the whole focus of the international community has been on destroying terrorist organizations like al Qaeda and ISIS, as if they were mere criminal gangs that needed to be disrupted operationally. The briefest survey of the state of the world, from North Africa to the North-West Frontier, demonstrates that this strategy has failed, abysmally.
The underlying ideology—we call it “Islamism”—has metastasized and must be confronted directly. After more than a decade of conventional, physical wars, we must finally wage an effective war of ideas. Islamism, often referred to as “political Islam,” is the desire to impose a version of Islam on the rest of society. Political Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood, generally do not believe in resorting to violence, though there are different attitudes even among Brotherhood franchises toward democratic participation, ranging from post-Islamists like the Ennadha Party in Tunisia, to semi-authoritarian conservatives, like South-Asia’s Jamat-e-Islami. “Jihadism,” on the other hand, is the use of force to spread Islamism.
Political Islam is an offshoot of religious Islam and draws much of its inspiration from the Quran and the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). To be sure, it does not represent the faith in all its forms, but unless challenged, the underlying problems of religious literalism, dogmatism, and pious intolerance are left untreated and continue to spread. A poll in 2014, published in the Saudi-owned newspaper al-Hayat, found that 92 percent of Saudis believe that ISIS “conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law.” Clearly, ISIS has something to do with Islam. That something is borne of a literalist reading of specific texts within the canon, a reading that many Saudi-based Salafists (a literalist movement that forms state-sanctioned Islam in Saudi Arabia) and ISIS share:
“And as for the male and female thief, cut off their hands as recompense for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.” (al-Qur’an 5:38)
Of course, the Bible contains barbaric passages, as well. But there are historical and theological reasons why Christians and Jews can now easily ignore them. Unfortunately, out of excessive concern not to appear biased, many liberals consider any discussion of the special problem posed by Islamism to be a sign of bigotry. This attitude helps bar the door to reform. To call ISIS “un-Islamic,” as President Obama has repeatedly done, and as Prime Minister Cameron recently stopped doing, is to play a dangerous game with words. Calling out and combating the ideology of Islamism is the only way that non-Muslims can help those liberal Muslims who wish to reform their faith from within. And failing to do so means abandoning the most vulnerable in Muslim communities—women, gays, apostates, freethinkers, and intellectuals—people like Nobel Peace Prize nominee Raif Badawi, who is being lashed in Saudi Arabia for the “crime” of writing a blog.
We do not entirely agree on how, and how fully, religion should be subjected to criticism in our society, but we both believe that merely repeating platitudes like “Islam is a religion of peace,” despite evidence that many zealots see it as a religion of war, blurs the line between truly peaceful and tolerant Muslims and those who aspire to drag humanity back to the seventh century. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry. Cries of “Islamophobia,” which have become ubiquitous on college campuses and in much of the liberal press, have been used to silence legitimate criticism. In an open society, no idea can be above scrutiny, just as no people should be beneath dignity.
We can testify to the power of honest dialogue on these topics. Though we initially met under circumstances that were overtly hostile, we pressed forward with civility and ended in genuine friendship. Without this type of engagement, the only alternative we see is continued intolerance and violence. And we have all seen far too much of that already.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/15/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-s-jihad-problem.html
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:16 pm
Stop spreading my hate fear arguments to vilify Islam and Muslims you racist
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:18 pm
Dutcnman you are really boring at the best of times, seriously go back to playing with your actionman
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:32 pm
Walter i love how you have adopted all of my previous arguments.
Two years ago I would have posted this and you would have spent ages telling me that jihad means inner struggle and Islam means peace and is perfect
Two years ago I would have posted this and you would have spent ages telling me that jihad means inner struggle and Islam means peace and is perfect
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:37 pm
Not adpated to any of your arguments Dutchman
In fact even today I showed how flawed your view was on a reply you made to Sexy on Islam.
The problem with you Dutchman is the fact you have never been good at putting anything across well.
I even had to educate you on the best arguments on Israel's right to self determination.
You just a sad little angry boy at the end of the day
In fact even today I showed how flawed your view was on a reply you made to Sexy on Islam.
The problem with you Dutchman is the fact you have never been good at putting anything across well.
I even had to educate you on the best arguments on Israel's right to self determination.
You just a sad little angry boy at the end of the day
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:52 pm
More self aggrandisement??
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:53 pm
No just more enjoyment at constantly correcting yousmelly-bandit wrote:More self aggrandisement??
Its a pleasure.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by SEXY MAMA Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:43 pm
No what we need is to talk about the ROOT of the problem.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by eddie Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:54 pm
SEXY MAMA wrote:No what we need is to talk about the ROOT of the problem.
Evening SM,
Which is?
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by veya_victaous Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:27 am
eddie wrote:SEXY MAMA wrote:No what we need is to talk about the ROOT of the problem.
Evening SM,
Which is?
religious institutions and the lack of education. the promotion faith/opinions over fact.
this is true of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism as well. each has their examples.
Is it any surprise communities with higher education have are generally less religious, less violent and more understanding and tolerant of others?
the areas with highest violence also have the highest devotion to religion and Abrahamic religions are statically worse than most of the others... technically the most violent is Judaism (due to the lower Jewish population making the proportions much higher)
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:54 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:smelly-bandit wrote:Walter i love how you have adopted all of my previous arguments.
Two years ago I would have posted this and you would have spent ages telling me that jihad means inner struggle and Islam means peace and is perfect
HA HA HA HA HA HAAAHHH!
Smelly calling Didge Smelly. Priceless.
Everyone has been saying this to you Didge - maybe finally you will believe.
Lol!
My views are nothing like his.
Only you and stassi have been making these claims, not the best endorsement, when you are both as batty as fruitcakes ha ha ha
Smelly shits his pants over Islam, I look to see Islam progress as Christianity did and that it becomes a personal belief.
Which shows you did not read the article at all, you are just another muppet with your head stuck in the ground lol
The fact is you two have far more in common than you think lol
Last edited by Cuchulain on Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:59 am
veya_victaous wrote:eddie wrote:
Evening SM,
Which is?
religious institutions and the lack of education. the promotion faith/opinions over fact.
this is true of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism as well. each has their examples.
Is it any surprise communities with higher education have are generally less religious, less violent and more understanding and tolerant of others?
the areas with highest violence also have the highest devotion to religion and Abrahamic religions are statically worse than most of the others... technically the most violent is Judaism (due to the lower Jewish population making the proportions much higher)
Judaism, based on on what from the Torah exactly?
Zionism is based on the right to a homeland based on mythical beliefs which is gobbledygook, but they do not use verses from the Torah to commit acts.
A small amount of orthordox extremists may commit acts, but claimig Jews are basically committing the most terrorism around per percentage of the population of Jews in world is abusrd.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:22 am
SEXY MAMA wrote:No what we need is to talk about the ROOT of the problem.
I agree we need to look at the root core of the problem.
One of which is doctrines like Wahhabism, where much of Islamism comes from.
What must be recognised is the links to Islam though with wahhabism.
Its done to help resolve the problem, not have a go at Muslims, as lets face it the vast majority of people who suffer under Islamism and extremist terrorism are Muslims
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by veya_victaous Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:01 am
didge you know the number of Jews in the world compared to Christians and Muslims?
I don't have to tell you that statically 1 Jew is worth almost 1000 Muslims or Christians.
And based on Torah, it is the worst most violent of the books by far.
it is unfair to target one when the real issues stem from the 'old testament' in all 3.
I don't have to tell you that statically 1 Jew is worth almost 1000 Muslims or Christians.
And based on Torah, it is the worst most violent of the books by far.
it is unfair to target one when the real issues stem from the 'old testament' in all 3.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:10 am
veya_victaous wrote:didge you know the number of Jews in the world compared to Christians and Muslims?
I don't have to tell you that statically 1 Jew is worth almost 1000 Muslims or Christians.
And based on Torah, it is the worst most violent of the books by far.
it is unfair to target one when the real issues stem from the 'old testament' in all 3.
Its by far the most violent book but to say Jews are the most violent is complete nonsense
I have never stated the Torah is not violent, it actually has something called Herem which is sanctioned genocide, which was later used by Christians to justify genocide themselves not only in the crusades but in the 100 years war between England and France and also other European conflicts. Where a town or city refused to surrender. They would then base on deuteronomy to slaughter them. If you look at the history of the Jews they have been one of the most persecuted in history. The fact is Israel since it was formed in 1948 has been under attack on many times. There is no doubt it has committed wrongs, but we are talking about conflicts here, which is far removed from actual terrorism where the intent is to murder and harm as many people as possible. Israeli law is in the main based on secularism also. not the Torah.
So do not get me wrong all 3 books justify violence of the worst order, but many Jews and Christians dissassociate from these verses and take as an historical aspect, which cannot be said or able to do in Islam, where it is meant to be the last message. You cannot claim a last message was meant for the time, it has to mean for all time. Anyway my view is to help progress Islam and stand behind moderate Muslims that seek to challenge the Islamism ideology and agenda.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by SEXY MAMA Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:59 am
Didge are friggin serious?
I Quote
but to say Jews are the most violent is complete nonsense
lolololol
you have a lot to learn then my friend EVERYTHING is because of them.
You don't agree well tough cause that's the truth.
Hence why I said lets look at the ROOT of the problem. Why did these attacks happen recently from 2000 onwards?
I know what you are going to come out with so I will save you the trouble. Wahabishism?
Read into it Didge and I don't mean bias literature.
Adios gota go catch u later
I Quote
but to say Jews are the most violent is complete nonsense
lolololol
you have a lot to learn then my friend EVERYTHING is because of them.
You don't agree well tough cause that's the truth.
Hence why I said lets look at the ROOT of the problem. Why did these attacks happen recently from 2000 onwards?
I know what you are going to come out with so I will save you the trouble. Wahabishism?
Read into it Didge and I don't mean bias literature.
Adios gota go catch u later
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:52 am
SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge are friggin serious?
I Quote
but to say Jews are the most violent is complete nonsense
lolololol
you have a lot to learn then my friend EVERYTHING is because of them.
You don't agree well tough cause that's the truth.
Hence why I said lets look at the ROOT of the problem. Why did these attacks happen recently from 2000 onwards?
I know what you are going to come out with so I will save you the trouble. Wahabishism?
Read into it Didge and I don't mean bias literature.
Adios gota go catch u later
Very poor counter
Does not get much more antisemitic than that, so now everything ios because of the Jews?
WTF
Now I fully understand the hatred of the Jews is because Muslims are clearly spouting hate against them and know nothing of its history, so you show me how they are behind everything and I will give you a proper lesson in hsitory and not some apologist Muslim bullshit you have been taught. Just like the other day you got tied up in knots over how many minorities have formed nations, where you never denied any of them having one except Israel. You never disproved anything I said on the Jews.
So show me the history of the Jews compared to Christians/Mulsims?
Seriously, you want to ridicule me on history, be my guest, but I guarntee you will end up looking very silly.
Why have these attacks been happenning before 9/11 sexy?
You see this is the apologist nonsense Muslims are spouting not recobnising problems from within Islam.
That they claims its the Wests fault. The west has played a part but the problems stem from within the religion itself and how it is justified to commit terror. Wahhabist have been since its creating killing other Muslims and Non Muslims, you might want to learn their history as I have,
So please spare me that really immature reply sexy, I have researched history and theology and understand many root core problems, one being Iraq has its roots back to the uprisng against Saddam in 1991 by the Kurds and Shias.
Another reason we see a rise in these attacks, is the fear of the religion losing its control on power.
Seriously all you did was divert from the points and then claim bias, when with history we read and research many sources. No wonder there is so much problems when Muslims are looking to deny responsibility within their own faith and look to scapegoat the Jews.
How many times in history has that happened?
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:30 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
My views are nothing like his.
Only you and stassi have been making these claims, not the best endorsement, when you are both as batty as fruitcakes ha ha ha
Smelly shits his pants over Islam, I look to see Islam progress as Christianity did and that it becomes a personal belief.
Which shows you did not read the article at all, you are just another muppet with your head stuck in the ground lol
The fact is you two have far more in common than you think lol
Me, Sassy, SM and now Smelly himself.
It's Smelly's seal of approval is the real biscuit. ;-)
Well two Muslims and a Muslims apologist all 3 of you anitisemitic after reading sexy's last reply blaming the Jews for everything, Not Israel mind for some of the causes but the Jews. That is antisemitism at its best and where does this hate stem from?
The Quran and the Arab states where we see the highest antisemitism in the world and all because they could not accept the formation of a minority group as a nation.
Of course the 3 of you never had an objection to Poland, Ukraine, and countless other minority groups within a far larger nation being created. Muslims look poor to deflect away from wrongs found within their own faith.
No I think I understand the 3 of you well enough.
Smelly is far right, I am liberal in my views and do not shy away from talking about issues within any religion.
At the end of the day like I said both you and smelly are so emotive and poor in your views.
The funniest thing is the pair of you now look for each other for support.
That is pricleless.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:36 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Well two Muslims and a Muslims apologist all 3 of you anitisemitic after reading sexy's last reply blaming the Jews for everything, Not Israel mind for some of the causes but the Jews. That is antisemitism at its best and where does this hate stem from?
The Quran and the Arab states where we see the highest antisemitism in the world and all because they could not accept the formation of a minority group as a nation.
Of course the 3 of you never had an objection to Poland, Ukraine, and countless other minority groups within a far larger nation being created. Muslims look poor to deflect away from wrongs found within their own faith.
No I think I understand the 3 of you well enough.
Smelly is far right, I am liberal in my views and do not shy away from talking about issues within any religion.
At the end of the day like I said both you and smelly are so emotive and poor in your views.
The funniest thing is the pair of you now look for each other for support.
That is pricleless.
You don't really know any Muslims (not colleagues or acquaintances) as actual friends, do you Didge? Be honest.
Because you say so?
lol Yes I have friends who are Muslim, talk about the worst deflection argument going, not that any of this matters to the points at hand, unless you are claiming all Muslims hate jews?
Is that what you are claiming?
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:44 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Because you say so?
lol Yes I have friends who are Muslim, talk about the worst deflection argument going, not that any of this matters to the points at hand, unless you are claiming all Muslims hate jews?
Is that what you are claiming?
No I know you're lying. I said no aquaintenses.
You have zero Muslim friends - certainly not ones whose house you visit. Not really friends.
Really that makes you claim I am lying because you say so, lol.
I have friends who are Muslim, who I can have a discussion with where they do not get their knickers in a twist as you do.
So you can say what you like, it does not prove anything other than you deflecting the points of the debate, which seems to be your game plan anytime Islam is the topic of discussion.
Aint going to happen, either you engage the points or crawl away with your spindly legs behind you.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:54 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Really that makes you claim I am lying because you say so, lol.
I have friends who are Muslim, who I can have a discussion with where they do not get their knickers in a twist as you do.
So you can say what you like, it does not prove anything other than you deflecting the points of the debate, which seems to be your game plan anytime Islam is the topic of discussion.
Aint going to happen, either you engage the points or crawl away with your spindly legs behind you.
You asked me a few months ago, that as a Muslim you would like me to take you to a mosque.
Ha ha ha ha did I? Was that during one of your wet dreams?
You wouldn't have asked a stranger on a forum if you had an actual Muslim friend.
I never did, it clearly was during one of your sexual fantasies.
This is just one reason why I know you're lying.
That is because you dreamt the whole thing up
Ps: see, that's the 3rd time you've asked me to leave the board today. I think today you're going to have another meltdown.
Because you are looking a tit Zack, but happy to accomdate your stupidity.
That is now countless replies you have made on this thread deflecting at every turn to talk about the topic of discussion.
Are you going to talk about the thread or as you have done througout talk about lovely me?
Flattering as it is, I am hetrosexual and even if you were a girl, I like to have some meat on the bone, not one for the skinny look.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:49 am
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Because you are looking a tit Zack, but happy to accomdate your stupidity.
That is now countless replies you have made on this thread deflecting at every turn to talk about the topic of discussion.
Are you going to talk about the thread or as you have done througout talk about lovely me?
Flattering as it is, I am hetrosexual and even if you were a girl, I like to have some meat on the bone, not one for the skinny look.
You do seem obsessed with my body.
It's kind of Bruce Lee skinny - I'll PM a pic if you want to pleasure yourself.
Bruce Lee? ha ha ha ha ha ha
Please its more like Mowgli.
So still not one point on the article, like I say you are obsessed with me.
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Tommy Monk Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:38 pm
Muslims guide book tells them to not take Christians or Jews as friends, how unbelievers are worth less than cattle, and to fight the unbelievers wherever they find them...
With this in mind... do Muslims really have any non Muslim friends...?
With this in mind... do Muslims really have any non Muslim friends...?
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:37 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:Muslims guide book tells them to not take Christians or Jews as friends, how unbelievers are worth less than cattle, and to fight the unbelievers wherever they find them...
With this in mind... do Muslims really have any non Muslim friends...?
That's because Muslims understand the Quran and understand the historical context of the message.
For example, the verses on not befriending Jews and Christians is actually referring to those in Medina who at the time were against the prophet.
Fighting the unbelievers is in the context of battle in those times.
You and other non-Muslims and even some so called Muslims may not understand the important of context, but most Muslims too.
Which is why I was asking if Didge has any Muslim friends. He, you and Smelly would have a better understanding if you opened yourself up to other cultures.
No you interpret this to be a historical event which makes the meaning of a mast message illogical.
So to claim context where is this thos view come from?
Muslims themselves who have come to this conclusion based on nothing more than a view .
So if there are verses that state such hatred against the Jews, then they are meant for all time, as the Quran is a finite message, the last message, it has to count for all time.
So where does it state this is specific in the Quran for a time?
You cannot use historical context to something that is a last message, everything stated means for all time.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:39 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Bruce Lee? ha ha ha ha ha ha
Please its more like Mowgli.
So still not one point on the article, like I say you are obsessed with me.
Not Mowg-lee - Bruce Lee.
No Mowgli
You are Indian ethnicity and Bruce Lee was not Indian ethnicity.
For some reason as well you do not have any nipples
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:59 pm
Not fascinated, just wonder what happened, is it a defect you were born with like your stupidity?
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:02 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:smelly-bandit wrote:Walter i love how you have adopted all of my previous arguments.
Two years ago I would have posted this and you would have spent ages telling me that jihad means inner struggle and Islam means peace and is perfect
HA HA HA HA HA HAAAHHH!
Smelly calling Didge Smelly. Priceless.
Everyone has been saying this to you Didge - maybe finally you will believe.
Lol!
A poor imitation of course
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:04 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
No you interpret this to be a historical event which makes the meaning of a mast message illogical.
So to claim context where is this thos view come from?
Muslims themselves who have come to this conclusion based on nothing more than a view .
So if there are verses that state such hatred against the Jews, then they are meant for all time, as the Quran is a finite message, the last message, it has to count for all time.
So where does it state this is specific in the Quran for a time?
You cannot use historical context to something that is a last message, everything stated means for all time.
Lol!
This could easily have been something Smelly would have posted a few years ago. Even you've got to admit that.
The,funny thing is that you used to agree with me. Lol!
The rational and the jurisprudence remain the same - that will never change.
The Quran is not a historical book. For the people of the day, it was not history. It was their present.
So the they understood the Quran in the context of their present time. Which is what scholars today do, and then verify if that jurisprudence applies today.
Don't have to take my word for it. You can do your own research.
Illogical:
•a) Imagine that God existed
•b) Imagine he actually revealed decrees (X and Y) to mankind through a prophet which was accurately recorded
•c) Does it then follow that a follower of this God could more or less accurately behave as according to X and Y?
The message is the same as it was for then as it is now, its the final message of a God, thus its message is finate.
Just because you make things up as you go along to discount bad and appaling parts of the Quran does not invalidate them.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Tommy Monk Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:05 pm
Dodge... you are mong-lee!!!
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:05 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:Not fascinated, just wonder what happened, is it a defect you were born with like your stupidity?
Aren't you for people who are born with conditions? Like gay people?
You sound like a hypocrite now.
Like I said i was concerned over your condition if it effected you, why are you getting so defensive again?
Its only out of concern if you had the piss taken out of you growing up?
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:08 pm
Lets use someone who stats it better than I:
Christianity and Islam are different in that Christianity is based on the Bible which is the inspired word of God and can be seen in a myriad different ways (fallible, metaphorically etc.) and is written in unknown times and places by unknown people. It can be interpreted literally, but it is not the literal word of God. Written by man, there is an interpretative layer which gives it greater wriggle room and adaptability. With 42,000 different denominations of Christianity, it can be cherry picked to support any position you might hold: loving/hating gays, slavery, blacks, prosperity, socialism etc. etc. It’s success has been in its dilution and adaptability, like an organism adapting to its environment in evolution.
Islam is different, it is the word of God, dictated through Gabriel over 22-23 years in a cave to an illiterate prophet. Thus the Qu’ran, which the revelations became, are accepted by all Muslims as being the immutable word of God, a divine monologue if you will. It is not an anthology of poetry, history, proverb, allegory, myth, narrative etc. as the Bible is, but a set of divine decrees and guidance from the “mouth” of God. This means that Islam demands that society adapt to it, scientifically, economically and morally (to a much larger degree than Christianity, say).
This is crucial, and was not seen clearly enough by detractors.
Let me start by looking at one of the axioms. To be a Muslim, which literally means one who”submits to the will Allah” (Islam meaning “submission” or “surrender”), one must believe, then, in Allah. Otherwise, you would be a deist, or some other religious label. If this word has meaning and properties, it must refer to a belief in Allah, and this must come from somewhere. I would like to a thought experiment or set of propositions for the reader to answer:
•a) Imagine that God existed
•b) Imagine he actually revealed decrees (X and Y) to mankind through a prophet which was accurately recorded
•c) Does it then follow that a follower of this God could more or less accurately behave as according to X and Y?
What follows is, it seems, yes, a believer could be more or less accurately following the decrees of God in some meaningful sense.
This is the idea of “True Islam” that I go to lengths to express. I don’t think any Muslims, or any substantive number that could in any way represent Islam, believe in the denial of a) or b).
http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2015/06/30/on-islam-and-answering-my-critics/
Christianity and Islam are different in that Christianity is based on the Bible which is the inspired word of God and can be seen in a myriad different ways (fallible, metaphorically etc.) and is written in unknown times and places by unknown people. It can be interpreted literally, but it is not the literal word of God. Written by man, there is an interpretative layer which gives it greater wriggle room and adaptability. With 42,000 different denominations of Christianity, it can be cherry picked to support any position you might hold: loving/hating gays, slavery, blacks, prosperity, socialism etc. etc. It’s success has been in its dilution and adaptability, like an organism adapting to its environment in evolution.
Islam is different, it is the word of God, dictated through Gabriel over 22-23 years in a cave to an illiterate prophet. Thus the Qu’ran, which the revelations became, are accepted by all Muslims as being the immutable word of God, a divine monologue if you will. It is not an anthology of poetry, history, proverb, allegory, myth, narrative etc. as the Bible is, but a set of divine decrees and guidance from the “mouth” of God. This means that Islam demands that society adapt to it, scientifically, economically and morally (to a much larger degree than Christianity, say).
This is crucial, and was not seen clearly enough by detractors.
Let me start by looking at one of the axioms. To be a Muslim, which literally means one who”submits to the will Allah” (Islam meaning “submission” or “surrender”), one must believe, then, in Allah. Otherwise, you would be a deist, or some other religious label. If this word has meaning and properties, it must refer to a belief in Allah, and this must come from somewhere. I would like to a thought experiment or set of propositions for the reader to answer:
•a) Imagine that God existed
•b) Imagine he actually revealed decrees (X and Y) to mankind through a prophet which was accurately recorded
•c) Does it then follow that a follower of this God could more or less accurately behave as according to X and Y?
What follows is, it seems, yes, a believer could be more or less accurately following the decrees of God in some meaningful sense.
This is the idea of “True Islam” that I go to lengths to express. I don’t think any Muslims, or any substantive number that could in any way represent Islam, believe in the denial of a) or b).
http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2015/06/30/on-islam-and-answering-my-critics/
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:10 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
No you interpret this to be a historical event which makes the meaning of a mast message illogical.
So to claim context where is this thos view come from?
Muslims themselves who have come to this conclusion based on nothing more than a view .
So if there are verses that state such hatred against the Jews, then they are meant for all time, as the Quran is a finite message, the last message, it has to count for all time.
So where does it state this is specific in the Quran for a time?
You cannot use historical context to something that is a last message, everything stated means for all time.
Lol!
This could easily have been something Smelly would have posted a few years ago. Even you've got to admit that.
The,funny thing is that you used to agree with me. Lol!
The rational and the jurisprudence remain the same - that will never change.
The Quran is not a historical book. For the people of the day, it was not history. It was their present.
So the they understood the Quran in the context of their present time. Which is what scholars today do, and then verify if that jurisprudence applies today.
Don't have to take my word for it. You can do your own research.
That's utter bollox
The Quran is considered valid for all time and is written on that basis. The Quran is written in the fashion if the ten commandments and therefore has no historical contexts
The fact that Isis tody are carrying out punishments based on the Quran proves that
The slavery,the beheading,the cutting off if opposite hands and feet??
All written in the Quran
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:12 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Cuchulain wrote:
Illogical:
•a) Imagine that God existed
•b) Imagine he actually revealed decrees (X and Y) to mankind through a prophet which was accurately recorded
•c) Does it then follow that a follower of this God could more or less accurately behave as according to X and Y?
The message is the same as it was for then as it is now, its the final message of a God, thus its message is finate.
Just because you make things up as you go along to discount bad and appaling parts of the Quran does not invalidate them.
Lol! Make things up. Another accusation Mentor and Smelly threw at Muslims. How long before you accuse me of taqiyah?
And by your logically analysis, it seems quite clear you have no idea about jurisprudence and how it works.
You are the on making things up
How can a command from your deity mean only for a time, are you saying Allah is now wrong.
Did he specify that this command was meant only for this group of Jews?
Even then it means a group of jews are to be viewed that way, then it is for all time
You are the one making up things to excuse the barbairty in the Quran
Guest- Guest
Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Tommy Monk Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:19 pm
Mohammed knew about Christianity and Judaism because his educated and wealthy wife told him stories about them... he was no receiver of gods message but just an evil power hungry murdering robbing and raping peado psychopath.
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:30 pm
Tommy Monk wrote: he was no receiver of gods message but just an evil power hungry murdering robbing and raping peado psychopath.
well, i would agree with that apart from the paedo bit,,,
royal and nobility babies especially were married off at a very young age in uk down the years
especially during middle ages and after. girls of 12/13 were expected to marry and produce heirs as their duty
the fact is, it was necessary back then due to the fact that life expectancy was lower, many women died in childbirth, and many babies died at a young age
nowdays with the advances in medicines that is no longer necessary, plus society always changes throughout the years
but i don't think the tag of paedo for mohammed is really appropriate tbh - if he was a paedo then so were many of the global population during that time
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Re: We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem
by Tommy Monk Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:52 pm
9 years old is definately a peado...
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